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TimeToCrusade
02-11-2019, 08:31 AM
Now that the 99% of people who answered "we need to wait until we figure BP out (:" to ANY concern about the character can't say that anymore let's discuss this hero:

Without question the best char in the game, anybody who says otherwise is either idiot or based (note: you can be both !) but I wanna discuss here why, and go over what has not been said but first: his bash

The 2nd most ridiculous move in the game, and certainly the most unskilled, we all know that, they all spam it and it will never get nerfed we all know that. With that out of the way let's go over the rest

Bulwark: the most OP move in the game, but not the most unskilled, litterally counters anything but gb, makes him invulnerable and all, this one does not shine yet since SB will take care of 99% of players with ease. However please note that when we will see some actual good BP, this move will be unstoppable. "good" BP here means someone with above average reflexes, aka the only way you are "good" at this game. So this one needs some time to shine but take my word for it, its even worse than the SB in the "right" hands

Damage: Above the rooftop, disgusting, and it all comes down to the SB punish, 20dmg per 500ms lights, compared that to LB 600ms and you understand how unbalanced this game is

recovery time: non existent, on anything he does, even his roll is fast as hell, not bad for a "heavy", the main problem here comes down to the 0 recovery from getting out of bulwark and ESPECIALLY the SB, which you cannot punish

tracking and range: God this one is maybe the worst of it all when fighting him, undodgeable attacks with waaaay more range than the size of his sowrd may appear. I was not used to not being able to run away from a heavy, also his attacks all feel like zones, always hitting anyone in a teamfigh. Special shoutout to the range on the shieldbash from heavy softfeint, disgusting

feats: the best of the best, topping even the wu lins, his level 1 shield has such a short cd you don't believe it at first and it's range is disgusting tbh, you can shield teamates from below them or through walls, the bulwark healing prevents bleed and fire dmg, as well as some great sustain if used right in a 1v1 situation (which most people dont do yet, i'll give you that), I won't comment on the shield deleting and we come to his 4th ability. Lots (and i mean LOTS) of people told it would be super weak and so balanced since it had limited range compared to phalanx, However It is actually waaay better here's why: most people will use phalanx to save their *** or in a teamfight, almost never to save teamates from across the map, and it refreshes the shielding multiple times, making all your team virtually unkillable for the duration, and the radius is plenty enough to cover any teamfights you'll get yourself in, on the bright side, couldown seems somewhat decent, not like the 1st shield

How does he perform ?
Well in duel and brawl it's just SB spam and free win into trashtalking obviously but it is in 4v4 that the cancer really spreads everywhere
BP gank squad have only one counter: quitting out, pure and simple, you will get SB to death, and won't even get your revenge to compensate. They will shields each other to death at a rate of about one shield every 12sc, and you will get harassed by undodgeable attacks from all sides.

It is worse than season 2 centurion, it is worse than current goki gank squads (which are already a 10/10 when it comes to being unfun to play against

Conclusion: as expected by the 1 in a 100 player who is not high on crack, BP is totally OP, unfun to play against and is just another cashgrab from Ubi, which succeeded spectacularly, like ANY other op char he will likely never get fixed since Ubi doest care about the state of the game since they realised it would not become a competitive game. It will stay like this forever minus possibly 2dmg taken off his light which will change nothing since all light attacks should do <10dmg in the first place.

Please do try to tell me otherwise or tell me if I missed something about this WONDERFUL and FRESH hero

note: he is also such a damn edgelord its embarassing

TimeToCrusade
02-11-2019, 08:35 AM
My apologies I just now realise how hard to read this is

ChampionRuby50g
02-11-2019, 08:39 AM
BP isnít the best character in the game. There are better picks, Beserker been one of them. To say BP is better than Zerk is just plain wrong.

TimeToCrusade
02-11-2019, 09:32 AM
Nope, anything zerk does is countered by bulwark and zerk is just as vulnerable to his SB an anyone. Don't get me wrong, zerk is dumb, OP but vortiger is better, dumber, has better feats and he's unbearable in ganks. Although thanks for the exemple of how ubi NEVER nerfs an op char

ChampionRuby50g
02-11-2019, 09:36 AM
And zerk can simply counter bulwark by feinting a heavy into GB. Zerks hyper Armor outclasses everything else in BPs kit. Zerk can also punish the SB with his dodge attack on reaction I believe, someone else confirm though?

TimeToCrusade
02-11-2019, 09:53 AM
I dont think he can, the SB has 0 recovery on whiff, also a "good" BP can just get out of bulwark when zerk feints, or just not use it when zerk goes for a heavy and only use it on lights. Just like people who parry everything don"t get baited by heavy into gb. But I agree zerk HA needs to be removed pure and simple OR get his hp down to 70/80

SpaceJim12
02-11-2019, 10:10 AM
Did you try to play BP? Bulwark Counter never near OP, it's too hard to use proper. New Shugo looks way harder to deal with. Warden still better, then BP (maybe, I feel it cause play him to rep 22), and almost every character could spam something. All Wu Lin can spam kick/palm etc. Valk can spam shield Bash, SB for Warden, even Warlord with his head butt.
It's could sounds strange, but BP is really balanced. Yes, he on the highr level, then not reworked old cast, but this not BP problem.

BunnyBuggs
02-11-2019, 10:28 AM
my bp is almost rep 10 and from my experience he is def a good balanced hero exept the bash yes , if u abuse it then u can win alot.
but im not abusing it and my win rate is around 50/50 , i suggest to evryone that is saying that he is OP to go and play him at higher skill lvl in 1v1.
on paper he look OP but in reality its not like on paper.
to get the BS working u need very good timings with heavy feint heroes and zerker is def one of them.
i almost never use the BS because they get me way to much with GB.
ofc if ppl are using the same paterns every round its easy to adapt and starting to use BS properly.
but in higher skill matches ppl dont use the same patern in all the rounds.
with some tweaks here and there he is a well balanced hero in my eyes ( if u are not abusing the bash)
just my 2 cents here.

TimeToCrusade
02-11-2019, 11:10 AM
Yeah sure he is balanced and all, right right...now go play LB into him, and you will understand why he is nowhere NEAR balanced. It is actually not even close. Always the BP players who say he is fine..I wonder why (:

Here are my 2 cents: BP is OP, he needs a true nerf, like a lot of other heroes, too many dumb moves that work too well, a char is as strong as his strongest move in this game. You can't go play a hero that gets 35dmg (40 ? dont remember) on light bash light in a game that has heroes that have nothing guaranteed of their bash and lights that deal 12dmg for 600ms and say this is balanced. Your opinion are based, not saying it in a mean way, but you play him so you obviously want him to remain god tier, I get that

Siegfried-Z
02-11-2019, 11:15 AM
BP kit himself is not that OP.

But to be perfectly fine i think his SB after a light should be slighly slower and have a decent recovery. Or even remoove from his kit.
Because this is the things all BP are spamming. They stop doing this once you show you can light parry them (which freeze them a bit on console).

Even without this SB, BP would still have the classic dodge SB, the sf SB on heavy opener and his zone . That's still a lot of bash. Enough for a char which have undodgeable, UB, good lights dmg and Bullwark.

But as i think it would never happen, then the speed and recovery from this SB should be look at.

Except from that i think he is very well designed.

But, that being said.
OP post i have To disagree with many things you said.
1/ BP dmg are not above others char. Only his light finisher should be slighly reduce because of how easy it is To Hey it currently. JJ still have the most ridicoulous dmg.
2/ BP feats arent the best. JJ still got the Gold for that .
3/ BP aoe is nothing spťcial . .. sorry but JJ again has the best AOE in the game.

At the end looking at your comment, most of your complain should make your thread title change for JJ.
Except about the SB.
But still... BP isnt the worst SB char .. Conq for this one :/

Goat_of_Vermund
02-11-2019, 11:30 AM
The bulwark is balanced. Ift works just like a parry, your guard is gone for 500ms if you miss the counter. You can throw a heavy for example if you think he is waiting for a light. I only play duel, faced lots of bps and use him too, and even on midlevel, it's a very situational ability. It might be a different story in 4v4, but timing it just right is not always easy.
His shieldbash recovery should be long enough to be vulnerable to dodge attacks.

BunnyBuggs
02-11-2019, 11:31 AM
he is def not god tier.
and yes the light bash light should get some work on it because its to much in 1 combo.
and no he def dont need to be god tier wich he isnt.
ppl that abuse the bash look him like god tier.
i would rate him as a good A maybe A+ tier.
its like siegfried say once u parry the lights a few times then he gets out of the god tier modus.
and ive been losing to very good LB players that know how to deal with him.
like i said i dont abuse the bash spam so yes he is fine in most cases.

TimeToCrusade
02-11-2019, 11:33 AM
JJ deserves a nerf, a hard one too, I agree but again: pick lb into 4 vortigers, tell me what happens then

Conq bash is punishable on whiff, and guarantees less dmg, so nope (conq is also a must nerf tho)

JJ feats ..well his shields are useless vs vortiger and his inciendiary too because of block healing

BP dmg not above other char....okay, 20dmg lights, LB got 12 for slower, never guaranteed lights, JJ's dmg is ridiculous, I agree, but it's because of people saying that nothing is op that we get 9/10 heroes with a ridiculous, cancer move/or stats

BunnyBuggs
02-11-2019, 11:33 AM
yep ppl think BS is OP but to get some decent flips with it need practice.
and im not talking about the ppl that use the same patern over and over again.
after a few min u can have alot of flips on them , but the ppl that play feint games.... not that easy to get flips on them.

BunnyBuggs
02-11-2019, 11:37 AM
JJ his damages needs a nerf yes , BP need a nerf on the bash combo yes , the feats are very strong yes.
and LB def needs buffed in his kit.
ofc if u come across 4 BP u get bashed so hard that every hero will die.
ppl only bash with bp in 4v4 , i totaly agree
but like i said i play mostly 1v1 and believe me if u dont spam the bash then its not that easy like ppl think to win against decent players.

TimeToCrusade
02-11-2019, 11:48 AM
Yes it does need practice but the problem is that some player will reach a point where they just cant lose. I once faced a conq that never used the bash, but was unkillable due to perfect use of full block, now imagine this with BS, you just cannot leave a move with so much potential, not to mention the invulnerability, nothing justifies this tbh, every single hero in the game can be attacked while performing a move but BP should be immune to all forms of damage ? Ridiculous

ChampionRuby50g
02-11-2019, 12:14 PM
JJ deserves a nerf, a hard one too, I agree but again: pick lb into 4 vortigers, tell me what happens then


Picking arguably the current worse hero in the game against any 4 heroes and youíll have a bad time. Itís not a BP specific issue. Going against 4 of the same hero on the enemy team is always going to be a sh1t time, regardless of the hero you yourself are playing. Thatís a poor argument for BP being OP.

Goat_of_Vermund
02-11-2019, 12:38 PM
4 Lawbringers have a very decent chance against 4 Black priors. It's an other story in 1v1, but Lawbringer is very weak there, along with nobushi, centurion and peacekeeper. Conqueror is still stronger, and unlike BP, he can leave the stance more than two ways, for example, by performing a zone, and unlike bp, he does not require as precise timing, you hit the shield, the counter hits even a full second later. The broken part is the bash.

Brutal_DaDo
02-11-2019, 12:39 PM
Itís the damn crying over every single time they add a new hero, he light bash light bug is going to be fixed since they stated itís a bug, yaíll just donít want to practice when a new hero is out, iíve played BP till rep 8 and if you play him outside of the light bash light youíll see that he uses a ton of stamina, a missed bulwark counter itís a huge stamina loss, if you donít play mindlessly youíll alawys catch him with a gb if he tries going into bulwark, his undogeable heavy itís an easy parry, ublockable heave from bulwark stance itís useless and you can gb him out of that too. The only thing he needs itís a damage nerf on his lights and his feats other than that he seems the only one hero they didnít release super broken! And after they nerf him youíll just go back on cry about conq, jj again! Jeez man

BunnyBuggs
02-11-2019, 12:45 PM
It’s the damn crying over every single time they add a new hero, he light bash light bug is going to be fixed since they stated it’s a bug, ya’ll just don’t want to practice when a new hero is out, i’ve played BP till rep 8 and if you play him outside of the light bash light you’ll see that he uses a ton of stamina, a missed bulwark counter it’s a huge stamina loss, if you don’t play mindlessly you’ll alawys catch him with a gb if he tries going into bulwark, his undogeable heavy it’s an easy parry, ublockable heave from bulwark stance it’s useless and you can gb him out of that too. The only thing he needs it’s a damage nerf on his lights and his feats other than that he seems the only one hero they didn’t release super broken! And after they nerf him you’ll just go back on cry about conq, jj again! Jeez man

ty thats what im trying to say all the time here +1

TimeToCrusade
02-11-2019, 01:07 PM
Yeah sure they will fix him like they said they will fix JJ's animations..oh wait they didnt, another pathethic argument, they will not fix it and if they do it's gonna be in months so "people" like you can pat their ego winning as BP. You play vortiger, you know nothing about balance, you never were the underdog in a match, don't you dare say anything to someone who has a clear head about the new char, new heroes were always released broken, end of story, you are not good because you win with vortiger, you win because you bought some an advantage. Don't ever talk to me like that again,

TimeToCrusade
02-11-2019, 01:18 PM
"You go back crying on conq gdsgsdgfdgfrd" well idk maybe he is broken and needs fixing? You scum abusers don't even pretend, you guys are so obnoxious you want to abuse and you want people to shut up about balance issues. Your kind is the worst on litteraly every online game, disgusting self entitled little twats

BunnyBuggs
02-11-2019, 01:49 PM
now now u dont need to be toxic here.
i was most of time the underdog in a match because i played kensei from the very beginning , before his rework , then i played lawbringer and shugo.
those are my starter heroes.
my top 5 heroes on fhtracker are warden , kensei , LB , orochi (before rework) and conq after rework.
i just play the hero i like the most , not the one that is OP that moment.
and i dont abuse the bash so if i win then its in a fair way :)

SpaceJim12
02-11-2019, 01:50 PM
Well, I have to say I'm not BP main. After all I just like his style, and appropriate knight after all. I have 10 rep LB.

Let me do this:

Yeah sure he is balanced and all, right right...now go play LB into him, and you will understand why he is nowhere NEAR balanced.


It's could sounds strange, but BP is really balanced. Yes, he on the highr level, then not reworked old cast, but this not BP problem.

Weakness of LB not BP problem. Same as weakness of Nobushi it's not JJ problem. All old characters need real rework just to bring them on the same line, as new characters are. Look at Glad now. He looks so OP on the start. Now you'll barely see Gladiator in the game. They easy to counter and have zero tools to stop Wu Lin or BP. Same for Shinobi after all.

I could say I crushed BPs with LB, but there are a lot about skill difference. And it's even not a week, since BP became avaliable for everyone. And still I met a lot people, who can kill me as BP. cause I'm not that good in For Honor after all.=)

TimeToCrusade
02-11-2019, 02:22 PM
Yeah maybe thats the whole problem, too much kids ready to pay for op new heroes, so we get power creep all over the place, how about releasing heroes that were on the same level as the old cast? Right, it does not bring enough money, how about people dont pay 40e a year for new heroes a week in advance? Right, some people have such an ego problem they need this...FeelsBadMan

SpaceJim12
02-11-2019, 04:16 PM
Yeah maybe thats the whole problem, too much kids ready to pay for op new heroes, so we get power creep all over the place, how about releasing heroes that were on the same level as the old cast? Right, it does not bring enough money, how about people dont pay 40e a year for new heroes a week in advance? Right, some people have such an ego problem they need this...FeelsBadMan

Why don't buy him for steel now? I didn't buy Marching Fire, still I knew new faction heroes will be OP compared with old cast. But I paid my money for Black Prior. I have 15k steel for him, but I think it's the way of For Honor i want to support. One hero per faction, less "add 400ms soft feint to heavy" ********. I really like what Ubi did with Prior and overall year 3 start. Sure, Prior is strong. Why not? Just becuse of Lawbringer need rework? Don't you think it's stupid.

pretoastedwaffl
02-11-2019, 04:37 PM
BP is definitely at the top with conqueror beserker and jj.

LedgeAllegiance
02-11-2019, 05:04 PM
In my opinion, I think a lot of the issue with the new characters is that they dont have any punish after missing an ub. They can all light out.

Another issue is old characters need rework before they can really be on par with all the new heroes.

Still doesnt mean BP isnt very strong. Idk about 1v1 cause I mainly play dominion but majority of my matches are 2-3 BP on other team. So I'm mostly getting bashed spammed and when I finally get revenge after 5+ sb it just gets removed. Not to mention the shielding of teammates from across the map or behind obstacles. Very frustrating but more on ubi part for thinking that would be ok.

Think the recovery time of all BP sb need to be increase and not allow invulnerability during flip. Should be like shugo hug or if he gets hit he cant do the attack. I've played him and the bs isnt that hard to pull off in 4v4 and really op in a lot of 4v4 situations.

pretoastedwaffl
02-11-2019, 05:20 PM
That and doing 20 damage for such a fast bash. It's so difficult to deal with

Knight_Raime
02-11-2019, 08:33 PM
Now that the 99% of people who answered "we need to wait until we figure BP out (:" to ANY concern about the character can't say that anymore let's discuss this hero:

Without question the best char in the game, anybody who says otherwise is either idiot or based (note: you can be both !) but I wanna discuss here why, and go over what has not been said but first: his bash

The 2nd most ridiculous move in the game, and certainly the most unskilled, we all know that, they all spam it and it will never get nerfed we all know that. With that out of the way let's go over the rest

Bulwark: the most OP move in the game, but not the most unskilled, litterally counters anything but gb, makes him invulnerable and all, this one does not shine yet since SB will take care of 99% of players with ease. However please note that when we will see some actual good BP, this move will be unstoppable. "good" BP here means someone with above average reflexes, aka the only way you are "good" at this game. So this one needs some time to shine but take my word for it, its even worse than the SB in the "right" hands

Damage: Above the rooftop, disgusting, and it all comes down to the SB punish, 20dmg per 500ms lights, compared that to LB 600ms and you understand how unbalanced this game is

recovery time: non existent, on anything he does, even his roll is fast as hell, not bad for a "heavy", the main problem here comes down to the 0 recovery from getting out of bulwark and ESPECIALLY the SB, which you cannot punish

tracking and range: God this one is maybe the worst of it all when fighting him, undodgeable attacks with waaaay more range than the size of his sowrd may appear. I was not used to not being able to run away from a heavy, also his attacks all feel like zones, always hitting anyone in a teamfigh. Special shoutout to the range on the shieldbash from heavy softfeint, disgusting

feats: the best of the best, topping even the wu lins, his level 1 shield has such a short cd you don't believe it at first and it's range is disgusting tbh, you can shield teamates from below them or through walls, the bulwark healing prevents bleed and fire dmg, as well as some great sustain if used right in a 1v1 situation (which most people dont do yet, i'll give you that), I won't comment on the shield deleting and we come to his 4th ability. Lots (and i mean LOTS) of people told it would be super weak and so balanced since it had limited range compared to phalanx, However It is actually waaay better here's why: most people will use phalanx to save their *** or in a teamfight, almost never to save teamates from across the map, and it refreshes the shielding multiple times, making all your team virtually unkillable for the duration, and the radius is plenty enough to cover any teamfights you'll get yourself in, on the bright side, couldown seems somewhat decent, not like the 1st shield

How does he perform ?
Well in duel and brawl it's just SB spam and free win into trashtalking obviously but it is in 4v4 that the cancer really spreads everywhere
BP gank squad have only one counter: quitting out, pure and simple, you will get SB to death, and won't even get your revenge to compensate. They will shields each other to death at a rate of about one shield every 12sc, and you will get harassed by undodgeable attacks from all sides.

It is worse than season 2 centurion, it is worse than current goki gank squads (which are already a 10/10 when it comes to being unfun to play against

Conclusion: as expected by the 1 in a 100 player who is not high on crack, BP is totally OP, unfun to play against and is just another cashgrab from Ubi, which succeeded spectacularly, like ANY other op char he will likely never get fixed since Ubi doest care about the state of the game since they realised it would not become a competitive game. It will stay like this forever minus possibly 2dmg taken off his light which will change nothing since all light attacks should do <10dmg in the first place.

Please do try to tell me otherwise or tell me if I missed something about this WONDERFUL and FRESH hero

note: he is also such a damn edgelord its embarassing

"Without question the best char in the game, anybody who says otherwise is either idiot or based (note: you can be both !)"

Not a great start.

"his bash the 2nd most ridiculous move in the game"

As far as bash based offense goes it's really one of the more tame ones. It's not protected by anything (like how conq's is guarded with superior block on dodge) it's telegraphed unlike tiandi's palm or glad's zone. It can't chain into something if it whiffs like Tiandi's palm. It has the worst range of any bash in the game sans maybe the dodge forward bash on glad with basically no tracking. And it can only be done from a forward dodge. Aside from the current bug the only horrible thing about it is how inconsistent punishing it is. Only glad's zone can be said to also be inconsistent to punish. If I had to say any bash based offense was actually busted it would be shinobi's slide tackle.

"Bulwark: the most OP move in the game, but not the most unskilled, litterally counters anything but gb, makes him invulnerable and all, this one does not shine yet since SB will take care of 99% of players with ease. However please note that when we will see some actual good BP, this move will be unstoppable"

Bullwark will not shine even after bash being adjusted because it ends your offense for not a strong damage amount. In duels you're better off sticking to pressuring someone. And it's VERY unsafe to try and use against a proper gank. as it's very vulnerable to GB based setups. The fact that you're damage immune is a blunder that should be addressed. So should the fact that the people he flips do not get damage reduction like basically every other pin type move in the game. The only other issue is that someone with strong timing can leave BW on reaction to a feint since leaving is only 100ms. But this really is only an issue for duels. And even then it's something that likely won't be seen by most of the population to begin with. Likely the only reason to ever use BW counter in duels is on the few cases where you can receive hitstun for an attack and still pull a counter. Like shaolin's light into buffered kick.

"Damage"

It's really only his finishers that are out liers. his max punishes are not the strongest compared to a handful of other heros. Once the bug is fixed he won't be getting 40 damage on crushing counter anymore. Which is really the only pain point imho. But i'm totally fine with taking light/heavy finishers down a few points.

"recovery time: non existent, on anything he does, even his roll is fast as hell, not bad for a "heavy", the main problem here comes down to the 0 recovery from getting out of bulwark and ESPECIALLY the SB, which you cannot punish"

Hyperbolic statements do not help your case. His roll is the exact same recovery as everyone elses. He actually has some quite high recoveries on his finishers, soft feint bash, and zone. It's mainly just his bash that is an outlier. Which has a recovery of 600ms. Which means it's absolutely punishable. just inconsistently so. It should be addressed.

"tracking and range: God this one is maybe the worst of it all when fighting him, undodgeable attacks with waaaay more range than the size of his sowrd may appear. I was not used to not being able to run away from a heavy, also his attacks all feel like zones, always hitting anyone in a teamfigh. Special shoutout to the range on the shieldbash from heavy softfeint, disgusting"

His undodgables don't have more range than any other undodgable attack. I can't speak to his AoE potential. But it doesn't feel anything close to kensei or JJ from my limited experience of him in 4's with him. If you're getting hit by his soft feint bash that's entirely on you. It's super telegraphed with decently high recovery and absolutely abysmal side tracking. The only thing it's decent for is a target swap attack. and even then that's pushing it.

"feats"

JJ has a banned feat for competitive 4v4. None of BP's are. His first specific feat is meh. it's roughly the same amount of shield Tiandi gets with his feat when he hits critical. It's not game changing. His level 2 feats are garbage besides his specific one which is nice. But it's not insanely strong. Oath breaker is not competitive viable for it's cooldown of 2 minutes. You barely shave anytime off of killing someone in an optimal gank by using it. Tough as nails is the good perk here. And while his 4th might be situationally better compared to phalanx morale booster is just straight better. The kill times for you and all effected allies are insane. Much more value. So yeah. His specific perks are not insanely great. I think you need to go look into some competitive 4's to understand what is and isn't a good feat. Because my take away from here is you don't get 4's at a competitive level.

"How does he perform"

In order to win in duels you need to utilize almost his full kit. Straight bash spam will only work against people who are not competent players. with his current bug and recovery time on bash he is S tier. But once both are fixed (and likely with other adustments) he'll probably be bottom S tier or high A tier. Berzerker is still a far better duelist. Conq is still far safer defensively and offensively compared to him. And Warden's Bash based interactions are more powerful. BP is just propped up by recovery time and the bug. In 4's JJ is still better overall. BP has basically no chase down and alright gank. he's not amazing at lane clearing either. And due to 90% of his offense being a bash of some kind he feeds a lot of revenge. The only thing BP excels at in 4's is single picking same with berzerker. But because both lack in chase down they both suffer in 4's.

"It is worse than season 2 centurion, it is worse than current goki gank squads (which are already a 10/10 when it comes to being unfun to play against"

Uh nope. And goki's entire offense is rolled. Nor does he have an answer to bash based offense. Headbutt is nearly a dead move in 4s and actually dead for duels.

Can't wait to be slandered and my opinion thrown out because I don't agree with everything stated here.

UbiInsulin
02-11-2019, 11:05 PM
I think conversation has mostly remained polite despite the antagonistic start, which I really appreciate. Let's please try to keep it that way.

LedgeAllegiance
02-12-2019, 12:06 AM
I'm not her to bash any ones opinion as we all have an opinion. Just some things I've seen and have happened to me. When I play valk I've noticed when I dodge light BP sb he miss the bash but block my light even if I predict the sb. Recovery time is to high for me to punish him for missing. Also watched m. Goldie play BP and 28 seconds into the video he threw a light as the zerk ha heavy. The light hit the zerk while his heavy followed through but BP was able to block the heavy trade. You think both of those are fair and not broken? Not bashing BP but the fact that ubi let stuff like that go through.

I'll start recording my gameplay to leave evidence of this and show some of things ppl are saying are op in a 1v1qnd 4v4 situation to back some of the things I'm saying. BP feats in 4v4 are pretty broken though. Getting caught by 2 BP almost means death. Got shield bashed 5 times in a row till I finally got revenge then soon as I use it one takes my shield of and back to bash spam till death. Not to mention if I let an ub fly the other just flips me while they both hit me.

Dont get me wrong all this has happened by other 1vx situations but I dont have to worry about my revenge being took away as soon as I get it. Feel like ubi kinda over did that feat and should reduce the range significantly on how far he can shield and has to be near the person he is shielding but that could be said about all shield buffs. Just poor job on ubi for that one. Not hate to BP players just some stuff to take into consideration when ppl are saying he is op/broken.

LedgeAllegiance
02-12-2019, 12:10 AM
Hey knight my last post was trying to respond back to you. I'm kinda new to the forms and was trying to tag you but failed lol.

Any way let me know what you think about my post and anyone else. Also made some points to changes to all ub in earlier post that could help solve a lot of issues with new and old characters.

TimeToCrusade
02-12-2019, 02:57 AM
"Without question the best char in the game, anybody who says otherwise is either idiot or based (note: you can be both !)"

Not a great start.



what a counter argument

As for all the rest, you keep saying that at least one of *insert move or feat here* is overtuned, whether it's damage, recovery or whatever, but that the rest is fine so I am wrong, well guess what? A hero is as strong as his strongest move (cf the glad zone you mentionned).

Who cares if 2 out of 3 feats are trash? If one feat is broken, everyone will pick it all the time.

You also keep telling he is S tier because of bugs, that doesnt help your case because:
1- Bugs are never fixed, JJ's animations still wait a nerf
2-The fact there are tiers means there are balance issues, which means I am right, so why even make a counterpoint
3-because he is good because of bugs means its fine? "yeah he is top tier right now but you know IF it was not for bugs he would only be bottom S tier" Who cares about if ? Currently he is a toxic headache rampaging through the matchmaking

As for your last point: "Uh nope" again, what a counterpoint. And I didnt talk about goki's new kit, I just said it is unfun to play vs 4 gokis

Quick shoutout to the "competitive play' didnt even know there was one lmao. I stopped at that tournamanet that a guy who hadnt played in a month won spamming unlock exploit as nobuchi. I'll refer to views on twitch, and just assume what they do in said "pro scene" is not some dogma to follow blindly

And again, thanks to compare so much to JJ, conq, zerk and co to remind us all vortiger will never get nerfed in the slighest. Kinda unlukcy you keep saying that I'm wrong because he will get fix while you remind us of the absence of nerfs in the past year

So there you go, I just usually don'"t bother answering when somebody is based and wrong, but you put in a lot of effort in this one

RenegadeRasta
02-12-2019, 04:19 AM
but you put in a lot of effort in this one

He does that. He did the same thing when Shaolin got his nerf.

EvoX.
02-12-2019, 05:58 AM
Won't be a Prior thread without Raime defending what's an obviously broken character. 3 different bugs that guarantee 35 damage off a single light, 2 different flickers, extremely easy to use bash for high damage without any sort of risk.

But his bash is really one of the more tame ones, by the way.

TimeToCrusade
02-12-2019, 06:30 AM
"Without question the best char in the game, anybody who says otherwise is either idiot or based (note: you can be both !)"

Not a great start.

"his bash the 2nd most ridiculous move in the game"

As far as bash based offense goes it's really one of the more tame ones. It's not protected by anything (like how conq's is guarded with superior block on dodge) it's telegraphed unlike tiandi's palm or glad's zone. It can't chain into something if it whiffs like Tiandi's palm. It has the worst range of any bash in the game sans maybe the dodge forward bash on glad with basically no tracking. And it can only be done from a forward dodge. Aside from the current bug the only horrible thing about it is how inconsistent punishing it is. Only glad's zone can be said to also be inconsistent to punish. If I had to say any bash based offense was actually busted it would be shinobi's slide tackle.

"Bulwark: the most OP move in the game, but not the most unskilled, litterally counters anything but gb, makes him invulnerable and all, this one does not shine yet since SB will take care of 99% of players with ease. However please note that when we will see some actual good BP, this move will be unstoppable"

Bullwark will not shine even after bash being adjusted because it ends your offense for not a strong damage amount. In duels you're better off sticking to pressuring someone. And it's VERY unsafe to try and use against a proper gank. as it's very vulnerable to GB based setups. The fact that you're damage immune is a blunder that should be addressed. So should the fact that the people he flips do not get damage reduction like basically every other pin type move in the game. The only other issue is that someone with strong timing can leave BW on reaction to a feint since leaving is only 100ms. But this really is only an issue for duels. And even then it's something that likely won't be seen by most of the population to begin with. Likely the only reason to ever use BW counter in duels is on the few cases where you can receive hitstun for an attack and still pull a counter. Like shaolin's light into buffered kick.

"Damage"

It's really only his finishers that are out liers. his max punishes are not the strongest compared to a handful of other heros. Once the bug is fixed he won't be getting 40 damage on crushing counter anymore. Which is really the only pain point imho. But i'm totally fine with taking light/heavy finishers down a few points.

"recovery time: non existent, on anything he does, even his roll is fast as hell, not bad for a "heavy", the main problem here comes down to the 0 recovery from getting out of bulwark and ESPECIALLY the SB, which you cannot punish"

Hyperbolic statements do not help your case. His roll is the exact same recovery as everyone elses. He actually has some quite high recoveries on his finishers, soft feint bash, and zone. It's mainly just his bash that is an outlier. Which has a recovery of 600ms. Which means it's absolutely punishable. just inconsistently so. It should be addressed.

"tracking and range: God this one is maybe the worst of it all when fighting him, undodgeable attacks with waaaay more range than the size of his sowrd may appear. I was not used to not being able to run away from a heavy, also his attacks all feel like zones, always hitting anyone in a teamfigh. Special shoutout to the range on the shieldbash from heavy softfeint, disgusting"

His undodgables don't have more range than any other undodgable attack. I can't speak to his AoE potential. But it doesn't feel anything close to kensei or JJ from my limited experience of him in 4's with him. If you're getting hit by his soft feint bash that's entirely on you. It's super telegraphed with decently high recovery and absolutely abysmal side tracking. The only thing it's decent for is a target swap attack. and even then that's pushing it.

"feats"

JJ has a banned feat for competitive 4v4. None of BP's are. His first specific feat is meh. it's roughly the same amount of shield Tiandi gets with his feat when he hits critical. It's not game changing. His level 2 feats are garbage besides his specific one which is nice. But it's not insanely strong. Oath breaker is not competitive viable for it's cooldown of 2 minutes. You barely shave anytime off of killing someone in an optimal gank by using it. Tough as nails is the good perk here. And while his 4th might be situationally better compared to phalanx morale booster is just straight better. The kill times for you and all effected allies are insane. Much more value. So yeah. His specific perks are not insanely great. I think you need to go look into some competitive 4's to understand what is and isn't a good feat. Because my take away from here is you don't get 4's at a competitive level.

"How does he perform"

In order to win in duels you need to utilize almost his full kit. Straight bash spam will only work against people who are not competent players. with his current bug and recovery time on bash he is S tier. But once both are fixed (and likely with other adustments) he'll probably be bottom S tier or high A tier. Berzerker is still a far better duelist. Conq is still far safer defensively and offensively compared to him. And Warden's Bash based interactions are more powerful. BP is just propped up by recovery time and the bug. In 4's JJ is still better overall. BP has basically no chase down and alright gank. he's not amazing at lane clearing either. And due to 90% of his offense being a bash of some kind he feeds a lot of revenge. The only thing BP excels at in 4's is single picking same with berzerker. But because both lack in chase down they both suffer in 4's.

"It is worse than season 2 centurion, it is worse than current goki gank squads (which are already a 10/10 when it comes to being unfun to play against"

Uh nope. And goki's entire offense is rolled. Nor does he have an answer to bash based offense. Headbutt is nearly a dead move in 4s and actually dead for duels.

Can't wait to be slandered and my opinion thrown out because I don't agree with everything stated here.


Won't be a Prior thread without Raime defending what's an obviously broken character. 3 different bugs that guarantee 35 damage off a single light, 2 different flickers, extremely easy to use bash for high damage without any sort of risk.

But his bash is really one of the more tame ones, by the way.

Yeah...for me a tame bash is the shove you see...you gotta agree shove is leagues below BP bash

TimeToCrusade
02-12-2019, 06:32 AM
didnt meant quote all of this x:

LionsFang78
02-12-2019, 02:08 PM
I think you're over reacting a bit. The bash is admittedly easy to abuse, but the rest of BP's kit is pretty well balanced.

His damage and range aren't really an issue, but shield bash, being as safe as it is, makes it an issue. If I were to balance him I'd swap the damage of his light starter and light finisher, that way a random light gives 20 dmg (which don't usually hit unless he gets a heavy parry) and the light after shield bash would only deal 15. The damage potential would still be there, but shield bash alone would deal less damage. I'd also make the bash easier to punish If dodged.

Bulwark counter is countered by gb, something everyone needs to keep in mind when fighting this hero. The invincibility he gains during the later half of the animation is a necessary evil as the devs want it to be useful in anti gank situations. The move has a recovery time on a missed counter as well, if you bait it out it's easy to punish. Good BP's will scarcely use it to make their opponent forget that they have it until they decide to bust it out

As for his feats, the only questionable one is oath breaker (the one that removes shields). Granting allies shields at the cost of your own health isn't op, his ability to heal in bulwark stance isn't op (it takes like a solid minute to reach full hp), and granting everyone around you regenerating shields for 5 seconds isn't op (I know it's more than 5 seconds but I'm exaggerating because it's duration is extremely short) In my opinion oath breaker should only take half of the shield, but could be used preemptively to keep opponents from gaining shields at all (with this effect having shorter duration so it's possible to turtle through it to pop revenge). As annoying as it can be, I'd argue that it's less annoying than losing a close 1v1 against an orochi because he finishes you with his quick level 2 projectile feat, or being ledged because you walked into a Vikings bear trap

Let's not pretend as though BP is worse than season 2 cent, or even the wu lin at the launch of marching fire. Other than a few questionable design choices he's pretty straightforward to play and to fight against.

Furthermore, I'd understand if Ubi waited a bit to work on BP. People may say it's a shameless cash grab, but let's face facts; new characters sell, which makes the game worth working on and therefore is healthy for the future of this game. If Ubi couldn't make money it'd be dropped, and I don't want For Honor to be dropped because I love this game. I'd love it if they took a season to give reworks to every character that deserves one, but new heroes and season passes are what will get us those reworks.

If new heroes weren't strong it'd lead to less sales. All things considered, I'm glad that BP released the way he did, he isn't at the top of the tier list and he hasn't been absolutely game breaking. I'm more concerned with the bugs added to the game with the this patch than I am with balancing BP

RoosterIlluzion
02-12-2019, 02:22 PM
Basically, everyone is saying "get rid of SB after light," which means take out that combo completely then. And the word is B I A S E D, not based.

Knight_Raime
02-12-2019, 05:21 PM
what a counter argument

As for all the rest, you keep saying that at least one of *insert move or feat here* is overtuned, whether it's damage, recovery or whatever, but that the rest is fine so I am wrong, well guess what? A hero is as strong as his strongest move (cf the glad zone you mentionned).

Who cares if 2 out of 3 feats are trash? If one feat is broken, everyone will pick it all the time.

You also keep telling he is S tier because of bugs, that doesnt help your case because:
1- Bugs are never fixed, JJ's animations still wait a nerf
2-The fact there are tiers means there are balance issues, which means I am right, so why even make a counterpoint
3-because he is good because of bugs means its fine? "yeah he is top tier right now but you know IF it was not for bugs he would only be bottom S tier" Who cares about if ? Currently he is a toxic headache rampaging through the matchmaking

As for your last point: "Uh nope" again, what a counterpoint. And I didnt talk about goki's new kit, I just said it is unfun to play vs 4 gokis

Quick shoutout to the "competitive play' didnt even know there was one lmao. I stopped at that tournamanet that a guy who hadnt played in a month won spamming unlock exploit as nobuchi. I'll refer to views on twitch, and just assume what they do in said "pro scene" is not some dogma to follow blindly

And again, thanks to compare so much to JJ, conq, zerk and co to remind us all vortiger will never get nerfed in the slighest. Kinda unlukcy you keep saying that I'm wrong because he will get fix while you remind us of the absence of nerfs in the past year

So there you go, I just usually don'"t bother answering when somebody is based and wrong, but you put in a lot of effort in this one

Telling someone they're either stupid or biased if they disagree isn't an argument. It's behaving like a child. In hindsight I should have just ignored it like I did with the rest of your attitude.
None of his feats are broken. Which is why I referred you to looking into what competitive 4's is like to see what makes or breaks a feat being viable.
JJ's animation problem was because they sped up his lights pre release but didn't change the animation. Causing players to actually take damage before the game would visually indicate this. That was fixed. If you have an issue with the animation itself that's a seperate issue. But the specific issue that was being talked about and being promised to be fixed was fixed.
Nothing is perfectly balanced. Tiers are made for literally any pvp based game that has competitive interest so I don't get your point here.
If you actually read what I said I never defended the bugs and said they should be addressed. I also said I was fine with him taking a damage nerf.
Because explaining why launch centurion was more of a problem than launch BP i'd have an even longer post which I already get **** for.
And it ultimately would have been wasted effort anyway as you didn't actually disprove anything I said. Where as I at least bothered to quote the parts I was responding to for your argument.
But if you really want me to explain and you'll actually listen i'd be more than willing to explain.
Yeah using every advantage possible to win is how tournaments go. Unlock tech was not banned from tournaments because it was hard to police. Not saying unlock tech was fair/fine/balanced or whatever term you wana use to say I support it. The important thing here is you're completely devaluing a players potential simply because they did something you frown upon.



He does that. He did the same thing when Shaolin got his nerf.

My outrage was the removal of a bug which didn't impact average play and massively increased his kits potential viability for high tier play.
It was removed over the simple fact that it was not an intended effect. Which I find personally to be an ignorant thing to do when PLENTY of competitive games had unintended effects that were kept or even further polished to become real mechanics in sequel releases. Everything else they did to Shaolin was more or less fine by me.


Won't be a Prior thread without Raime defending what's an obviously broken character. 3 different bugs that guarantee 35 damage off a single light, 2 different flickers, extremely easy to use bash for high damage without any sort of risk.

But his bash is really one of the more tame ones, by the way.

Yes let's just completely ignore in my reply that I not only identified the bugs but called for them to be taken care of. Along with having his recovery on bash adjusted.
Let's just take another shot at some low hanging fruit because i'm not sitting right next to you *****ing constantly.
Grow the **** up.

Knight_Raime
02-12-2019, 05:35 PM
I'm not her to bash any ones opinion as we all have an opinion. Just some things I've seen and have happened to me. When I play valk I've noticed when I dodge light BP sb he miss the bash but block my light even if I predict the sb. Recovery time is to high for me to punish him for missing. Also watched m. Goldie play BP and 28 seconds into the video he threw a light as the zerk ha heavy. The light hit the zerk while his heavy followed through but BP was able to block the heavy trade. You think both of those are fair and not broken? Not bashing BP but the fact that ubi let stuff like that go through.

I'll start recording my gameplay to leave evidence of this and show some of things ppl are saying are op in a 1v1qnd 4v4 situation to back some of the things I'm saying. BP feats in 4v4 are pretty broken though. Getting caught by 2 BP almost means death. Got shield bashed 5 times in a row till I finally got revenge then soon as I use it one takes my shield of and back to bash spam till death. Not to mention if I let an ub fly the other just flips me while they both hit me.

Dont get me wrong all this has happened by other 1vx situations but I dont have to worry about my revenge being took away as soon as I get it. Feel like ubi kinda over did that feat and should reduce the range significantly on how far he can shield and has to be near the person he is shielding but that could be said about all shield buffs. Just poor job on ubi for that one. Not hate to BP players just some stuff to take into consideration when ppl are saying he is op/broken.

Your first paragraph is a bit hard for me to understand. Are you stating that you tried to do Valk's dodge attack to dodge and then punish black prior's bash after light? If so Valk's dodge attack doesn't come out quickly. Most dodge attacks can come out 100ms into their dash but valk's is one of the few where the fastest it can come from a dodge is 300ms into it. Valk's dodge attack is capable of punishing the bash (from my testing anyway) but the timing is so tight on it that is basically a read instead of a reaction. I'm not super experienced with Valk but I wonder if going into her shield tackle and then feinting out of it would work to dodge his bash and GB him. You'll have to reword that part about the berzerker for me. Or better yet link me the video so I can see what happened and maybe provide an explanation. As for my stance on the bash recovery itself goes if I didn't make it clear in my original reply to the thread I do think the recovery should be nerfed so it's more consistently punishable.

I perfectly understand how his Oath breaker feat can feel broken for random pub matches. I often forget that the average experience of the game is different than the high tier experience. So let me specifically rephrase that here. Oath breaker is a good perk. Removing someone's extra defense is invaluable in a non optimized gank. And black prior being a hero where most of his offense is bash related majorly benefits from this because all it takes to fill someone's revenge bar is 5 bashes (iirc.) That being said I don't think it's as valuable just because revenge itself can be waited out/played around. It already has a heafty 2 minute timer which I personally think balances it's power in pub matches. As far as facing 2 BP's goes unfortunately that's just the reality of the situation we're in. having 2 of the same hero for basically anyone in the roster can cause a mess. Devs are hard against single picks though. So not much can be done.

I do want to have it on record again that I do understand the plight of average players, especially after having to use a sub par setup for a few days. That being said I tend to keep my mind more on the high tier side just because I truly believe the game has become much better over it's life span by continually trying to keep competitive in mind. I'm not saying every change done has been a good one. Nor am I pretending that they've ever done enough to actually appease the competitive community in any notable amount (imo.) But I do think they're on the right track. Even if they will stumble and make incomplete/poor changes along the way on occasion.

EvoX.
02-12-2019, 06:01 PM
Yes let's just completely ignore in my reply that I not only identified the bugs but called for them to be taken care of. Along with having his recovery on bash adjusted.
Let's just take another shot at some low hanging fruit because i'm not sitting right next to you *****ing constantly.
Grow the **** up.

No, you literally said: ''His bash is really one of the more tame ones''. That's just typical Raime. Even the competitive reddit elitists are all in unison that the move is too good, and needs a nerf to be more in line with other bashes, so how the fuсk does a ''tame bash'' need a nerf? Do I really have to list all the bashes in the game for you to realize how idiotic your statement was? Let's see:

1. Warden - one of the possibly two bashes that are overall better than Prior's SB
2. Conq - very debatable. Conq has an additional SB game with the delayed bash, but he has nothing else. Keep your guard top for his only fast light and focus all your attention on dealing with the SB/GB mix-up. Prior? You have to divert between guarding, dodging the SB and/or guessing whether that's even the correct unblockable. Conq has one, Prior has 3. He has so much more pressure from neutral than Conq. When speaking strictly about their SB, Conq takes it, but overall, Prior's SB is made better by all the other things that it could be, by how much easier it is to land it due to the opponent's divided focus, and by how unpunishable it is.
3. Lawbringer's Shove - no. Light years worse.
4. Centurion's Kick and Jab - no. Do I even have to explain?
5. Gladiator's punches and Zone - no, and not better as an offensive tool due to high stamina cost and lower speed. Only becomes better when taking into account its use as a parry option select, which is not offensive pressure from neutral.
6. Warlord's Headbutt and CC - literally worse in all ways
7. Valk's soft feint SB - nowhere near as good
8. Highlander's Kick/Grab - nope. Avoided by dodging/rolling, lighting, baiting out, some character's backwalking when not OOS. They are also more difficult to access.
9. Shaman's tackle - no. Guaranteed guardbreak on miss.
10. Kensei's Pommel Strike - nope. Light on reaction to top heavy, option select with zone, lower guaranteed damage
11. Shugoki's headbutt and hug - no and avoidable by backdodging/rolling on reaction
12. Nobushi's kick - 600ms, telegraphed by preceding move, can not only be a guardbreak punish but a light parry one as well
13. Shinobi's kick - no. Slide Tackle is getting removed soon, so don't use that strawman example
14. Shaolin's kick - no. You don't dodge you eat 20 damage, you dodge and get a guaranteed guardbreak. A foreign concept to Prior.
15. JJ's shin kick - no. Just dodge as soon as you see the top heavy.
16. Tiandi's Palm Strike - no. Slower and easier to avoid, can not only be punished by a guardbreak but eventually by a light parry as well

So: one, possibly two bashes that are better out of ~16, unless I missed some? Truly, one of the more tame bashes in the game.

Knight_Raime
02-12-2019, 06:28 PM
No, you literally said: ''His bash is really one of the more tame ones''. That's just typical Raime. Even the competitive reddit elitists are all in unison that the move is too good, and needs a nerf to be more in line with other bashes, so how the fuсk does a ''tame bash'' need a nerf, genius? Do I really have to list all the bashes in the game for you to realize how idiotic your statement was? Let's see:

1. Warden - one of the possibly two bashes that are overall better than Prior's SB
2. Conq - very debatable. Conq has an additional SB game with the delayed bash, but he has nothing else. Keep your guard top for his only fast light and focus all your attention on dealing with the SB/GB mix-up. Prior? You have to divert between guarding, dodging the SB and/or guessing whether that's even the correct unblockable. Conq has one, Prior has 3. He has so much more pressure from neutral than Conq. When speaking strictly about their SB, Conq takes it, but overall, Prior's SB is made better by all the other things that it could be, by how much easier it is to land it due to the opponent's divided focus, and by how unpunishable it is.
3. Lawbringer's Shove - no. Light years worse.
4. Centurion's Kick and Jab - no. Do I even have to explain?
5. Gladiator's punches and Zone - no, and not better as an offensive tool due to high stamina cost and lower speed. Only becomes better when taking into account its use as a parry option select, which is not offensive pressure from neutral.
6. Warlord's Headbutt and CC - literally worse in all ways
7. Valk's soft feint SB - nowhere near as good
8. Highlander's Kick/Grab - nope. Avoided by dodging/rolling, lighting, baiting out, some character's backwalking when not OOS. They are also more difficult to access.
9. Shaman's tackle - no. Guaranteed guardbreak on miss.
10. Kensei's Pommel Strike - nope. Light on reaction to top heavy, option select with zone, lower guaranteed damage
11. Shugoki's headbutt and hug - no and avoidable by backdodging/rolling on reaction
12. Nobushi's kick - 600ms, telegraphed by preceeding move, can not only be a guardbreak punish but a light parry one as well
13. Shinobi's kick - no. Slide Tackle is getting removed soon, so don't use that strawman example
14. Shaolin's kick - no. You don't dodge you eat 20 damage, you dodge and get a guaranteed guardbreak. A foreign concept to Prior.
15. JJ's shin kick - no. Just dodge as soon as you see the top heavy.
16. Tiandi's Palm Strike - no. Slower and easier to avoid, can not only be punished by a guardbreak but eventually by a light parry as well

So: one, possibly two bashes that are better out of ~16, unless I missed some? Truly, one of the more tame bashes in the game.

If you're going to quote me actually quote what I said. I specifically stated why I considered it tame. Which again to refresh your memory. It isn't protected by anything, it can't chain into anything off whiff, it can't be used from a side dodge, and it has poor tracking and range. Of course RIGHT NOW it feels arse because of a bug and short recovery. But there are far more factors to consider. But because you have such a damned hard on for those two specific things you're going to ignore anything else being said because i'm not being strictly negative about it like you are.

Conq's bash is strictly better. It has superior block protecting it. It can be used as a counter due to side dodge access. You can beat predict dodges by inputting a charge heavy when you dash and then dash for a buffered bash. You can charge the heavy and then either dash out for a buffered or delayed bash (both again having superior block) or soft feinting the charge heavy with his other bash.

Glad's is better in my opinion because of it's better tracking and reach on top of not being telegraphed from a dodge or an attack. Not by much. But I find it to be a little better.
You forgot valk's shield tackle. It's safer and shuts out pretty much most forms of offense and in most cases allows her to punish either with letting it go or feinting to GB. I'd say it's situationally better.

Kick into grab is easily beaten in a variety of ways yes. But it's covered up with other soft feints. Situationally can be even to the bash in terms of offense.
Shaman flickers her bash which means you have to punish it on read and has a 50 damage swing if she has bleed procced on someone. Situationally as good.

If you light in reaction to kensei's top heavy he can dash forward cancel to superior block it for a free GB. You can't reactionary shut out his pommel mix up. And his damage can be better through the mix up either GB into wall splat or the person looking to parry the light but eats the top heavy instead. Strictly speaking pommel on it's own is worse than the bash. But the mix up is strong. So I wouldn't completely count it out.

We're talking about how his bash is compared to every other bash in the game right now. You're strawmanning by saying it will be removed soon. They said that at least 1 season ago if not 2. And sense when do you believe the devs? Shaolin's kick is better because it can be lead into with better range and a 400ms light. and the kick itself has range and tracking. Meaning delaying the input actually does something for him compared to black prior.

Palm isn't telegraphed through an attack or a dodge like BP's. Palm can be followed up from any feint, light hit, guaranteed on crushing counter and can be followed up with either a light or a heavy. Beating the light with a dodge attack is tight timing for pretty much any dodge attack and best results in a trade. Or the heavy which has armor, does carry you range wise and is feintable. Meaning you can punish someone for attempting to whiff punish you. And if they are waiting to parry you can simply feint it into nothing, another palm, or his zone which has deceptively long range. IMO palm is better.

So it's really more like 9 are comparable. and 5 that are equal or marginally better.

UbiInsulin
02-12-2019, 08:43 PM
Closing this thread, as it's becoming as much about egos as it is about Black Prior.

The concerns with BP's Shield Bash have definitely been mentioned to the team.