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View Full Version : REALISTIC GROUND HANDLING FOR TAILDRAGGERS!!!



XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 01:15 AM
sorry bout the all caps title, just wanted to get peoples attention about this issue

seeing as this is the best ww2 flight sim there is, and probably will be untill olegs next sim

seems like it should model realistic ground handling for taildraggers to

i know some people here know how real taildraggers handle

gotta be on the rudder the whole time or its gonna spin all the way around with you (ground loop)

in FB you dont even have to touch the rudder to take off or land, sure it will go off one way or another some and you might not be aligned with the runway, but you can still take off or land

maybe its the way it is because too many people would say its too hard

maybe its the way it is becuase not everyone has rudder pedals or a twist stick

if thats the case then there should be a realism setting where it can be turned on and off

then some people say this is a "flight sim not a ground sim", well isnt taking off and landing part of flying?

what would need to be done to model this is to make the code where if the plane was going one way or the other a little on the ground it would keep turning that way faster and further untill rudder is used to correct it, thats why you gotta stay on the rudder the whole time

i hope there is more support for this then there has been in the past and that it can be fixed in a following patch and if not, then in the next sim

seems like this is a big issue compared to some of the other stuff, specially since 95% of the planes in FB are taildraggers





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XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 01:15 AM
sorry bout the all caps title, just wanted to get peoples attention about this issue

seeing as this is the best ww2 flight sim there is, and probably will be untill olegs next sim

seems like it should model realistic ground handling for taildraggers to

i know some people here know how real taildraggers handle

gotta be on the rudder the whole time or its gonna spin all the way around with you (ground loop)

in FB you dont even have to touch the rudder to take off or land, sure it will go off one way or another some and you might not be aligned with the runway, but you can still take off or land

maybe its the way it is because too many people would say its too hard

maybe its the way it is becuase not everyone has rudder pedals or a twist stick

if thats the case then there should be a realism setting where it can be turned on and off

then some people say this is a "flight sim not a ground sim", well isnt taking off and landing part of flying?

what would need to be done to model this is to make the code where if the plane was going one way or the other a little on the ground it would keep turning that way faster and further untill rudder is used to correct it, thats why you gotta stay on the rudder the whole time

i hope there is more support for this then there has been in the past and that it can be fixed in a following patch and if not, then in the next sim

seems like this is a big issue compared to some of the other stuff, specially since 95% of the planes in FB are taildraggers





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XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 01:39 AM
Hey rifleman, can't you disengage the "torque" settings in the Settings menu?

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XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 01:49 AM
torque isnt the problem

thats just another factor in the ground handling, makes it even harder

torque and or wind is the only thing that makes it go off crooked right now

the realism setting i would like to see is between the way it is now for hte ground handling and the realistic way, which inst present at all now, but should be

if i turned torque off it would be even less realistic then it is now

also you cant even make the planes ground loop if your try, they pretty much all handle like they have nosewheel configurations

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XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 01:56 AM
If it made you feel better. You could always trim the rudder the wrong way before take off. Then you'd have to hold rudder all the way on the take off.

Just trying to help../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 02:02 AM
doesnt help lol,

that just makes it go one way, doesent try to spin on around with you

if you have ever pushed a shopping cart backwards, that is a similar effect of a taildragger, you know it wants to spin around

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XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 02:05 AM
I know what your saying. Maybe Oleg thought it would be too hard for noobs. Some of them can't get off the ground now.

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XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 02:08 AM
yeah, thats why i was saying that there needs to be a realism switch option like there is for lots of other stuff

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XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 02:11 AM
I agree rifleman. The 109 is easy to handle on the ground. Most souces say it was really difficult to handle. Many accidents!! Perhaps it will be corrected in the patch

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XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 02:16 AM
yeah, hopefully it is fixed in patch, but i doubt it even tho there was something said about taxiing in the patch

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XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 02:29 AM
BuzzU wrote:
- I know what your saying. Maybe Oleg thought it would
- be too hard for noobs. Some of them can't get off
- the ground now

Yeah, thats why you can shut off the realism settings. Oleg should'nt penalize us experienced players for people who don't want to practice.

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XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 02:46 AM
I thought you were a noob Mike?

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XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 02:47 AM
Noob? Playing IL2 for 5 months. I don't think thats a noob. Is it?

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XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 02:55 AM
Just checking./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

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XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 07:38 AM
i agree.. what's the point of being able to lock my tail wheel if not locking it has the same effect?

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 07:52 AM
I vote for a more realistic (would you say: "aggressive") ground handling for the taildraggers in FB. Remember, this are no Piper Cubs, but 1000+ HP Warbirds...
If too difficult for beginners, make an option for switching realistic ground handling off (like "stalls off" etc.)

++ 88.IAP_Manuc ++

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 11:50 AM
I agree!!!

A WW2 sim without realistic taildragger groundhandling?! lol...

I have never seen a 3 point landing in il-2/FB

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 12:04 PM
you know when you use the brake and rudder at the same time its design to act as left and right braking


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michapma
08-08-2003, 12:52 PM
"For those who can't read"

Emphasis is mine. Of course braking is meant. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-wink.gif


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XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 01:24 PM
"yeah, thats why i was saying that there needs to be a realism switch option like there is for lots of other stuff "


I perfectly agree with you, but I see a big problem, even with realism setting options, and not only about this specific question.

If some "experienced" players would find suddenly something too hard, they would never play with easy settings, this would be a dishonor for them. So they would lobby for the "hard" settings staying "easy".

The argument "real is not always hard" would arise immediately!

Cheers,

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 01:44 PM
It is fixed in the patch.

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XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 01:59 PM
Bearcat99 wrote:
- It is fixed in the patch.

Cool. Torque too?

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XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 04:45 PM
ive seen that in the list of things fixed in the patch, but that could mean anything really, not much info there

so bearcat, you played with a leaked beta?

is it hard to taxi a taildragger, you gotta stay on the rudder, will it groundloop?

i hope so,

if so i think this would be the first sim to ever model realistic taildraggers

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XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 06:33 PM
Question for all of you. Did the tail wheel respond to rudder inputs on most WWII aircraft, or were they mostly just free wheeling castors? If you could turn the tail wheel with the rudder, it would make taxiing a lot easier. I can't stand the whole "brake and rudder" thing to get them to turn. And some of the nose-wheel planes (Me262, P-39, etc) steer even worse than the tail draggers! The 262's nose doesn't even turn!


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XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 06:58 PM
Than again, maybe it's this way because your typical combat aircraft is five times heavier than the little stumpers your used to.

adlabs6
08-09-2003, 08:13 PM
Aardvark892 wrote:
- Question for all of you. Did the tail wheel respond
- to rudder inputs on most WWII aircraft, or were they
- mostly just free wheeling castors? If you could
- turn the tail wheel with the rudder, it would make
- taxiing a lot easier. I can't stand the whole
- "brake and rudder" thing to get them to turn. And
- some of the nose-wheel planes (Me262, P-39, etc)
- steer even worse than the tail draggers! The 262's
- nose doesn't even turn!

I believe that the tail wheels are like a castor mount on most planes. This topic is very interesting to me. I've never EVER had a plane get away from me on the ground in IL2 or FB due to a ground loop incident. I've never seen a gound loop while flying with others online. I don't even think such a thing is modeled in FB. Then again, I don't know how strongly affected the planes in FB were by ground looping, given the differences in weight and power differences compared to small taildragger GA planes.

The P-39 does have steerable nose gear, controlled with the rudder, and IIRC, it was bugged in IL2, and while it seems better in FB, still using the brakes with rudder is common, even at low speeds, where I'd imagine the steerable wheel is most useful.

The Me-262 in FB doesn't have a steerable nose wheel at all, you basically have to drag it around with the brakes to aim the nose, even on takeoff. Whether it was only the Me262's that are in FB that were like this I've no idea, but I do have a couple of photos showing 262's on the ground with the nose gear turned, as though for taxiing. Again, I don't know if the ground crews or the pilots did this.

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XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 08:30 PM
I don't think the P-39 had a steerable nose wheel. This was brought up before, and I seem to remember it was decided it had a castor type wheel like a tailwheel.

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adlabs6
08-09-2003, 08:45 PM
Buzz, thanks, never hear that before. I'm pretty sure that the nosewheel is modeled so that it turns with the rudder in IL2 and FB. I'll have to check to be sure though.

Still if FB is errored in this way, a fix is likely not as simple as a FM or DM fix, since I'd guess that the animations are built into the planes 3D model itself. A new download of a fixed P39 model might be required. Perhaps because its no big deal (as long as the ground turn rate is right, not animation related) is why it remains unchanged.

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XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 09:37 PM
right now it is imposible to ground loop in FB, it is not modeled at all

most ww2 planes had castoring tailwheels, thats why they could lock them for take off, to help control it

about them being heavier and not acting the same as light planes, this is somewhat true, but they would still ground loop, it just wouldnt happen as fast im guessing since they are bigger and heavier

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Message Edited on 08/09/0304:04PM by Rifleman75

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 10:32 PM
I support any modification which 1. Gives me more realistic problems to solve; and 2. gives me new ways to bend my airplane.

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 11:01 PM
In the Spanish interview, Oleg did say that future 1C Sims would have less Aircraft in them, so the development team could spend more time on individual Aircraft, creating more accurate flight and handling models.

Mind you he also hinted that if people wanted more complex and accurate flight models and handling characteristics they had to be prepared to up grade their PC technology at home ( Big Time )

S!

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 12:20 AM
adlabs6

The real 262 had a castoring nose wheel. It was steered using brakes and rudder - NO engines(for those that say to).

The P-39 > ???.




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XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 01:39 AM
Is the groundloop tendency due more to propwash on the tail when it's down and in the wash? Is some of it due to propwash causing one wing to be pushed up while the other is pushed down to the weight on the wheels is asymmetric? If the latter is significant then I would offer that where the gear meets the ground isn't done to such detail as the FM, that friction and strut loading is maybe asking for a lot as in some other feature or detail having to be sacrificed to fit that in.

There is no free lunch, we can only get so much to fit in our computers. I've noticed yaw and roll in IL2 and didn't it get less as the patches came out or did it vary? I think we've seen tradeoffs for wishlist features already.


Neal

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 01:39 PM
I only have that problem with a full bomb load, the HE-111 with two torps your down the runway and gone.

Loaded down with bombs, tailwheel locked (Facing straight mind you) i start to roll no biggie little faster little faster then i start going left i can turn the rudder full to avoid this but i still go left. Depending on the airfield you can get up not pretty but you can. Others its time to throttle back turn about and taxi all the way back down and try it again. This only occurs on full real settings.

May you not become a dirt torpedo.

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XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 07:36 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
- adlabs6
-
- The real 262 had a castoring nose wheel. It was
- steered using brakes and rudder - NO engines(for
- those that say to).
-
- The P-39 > ???.

That 262 is a bugger to turn on the ground. It only turns if you're willing to do stop and go with the brakes and rudder for every 5 or so degrees of turn. I can't believe the 262 had a castor front wheel. What were they thinking? I guess it just seems so natural now for tricycle gear planes to steer with their front wheel, it's almost ridiculous imagining trying to turn that thing on a castor. Thanks for the info.


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XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 07:48 PM
Neal, propwash or p-factor, does affect ground looping. The airflow from the prop corkscrews around the fuselage, until it whacks into one side of the vertical stabilizer. This is largely why you have to hold right rudder (left for Russian aircraft) on takeoff. This force is fairly stable however, and constant rudder input can counter it without too much active control being required. Most of the influence on ground loops is from the way tail-draggers gear is set up. The normal progression of stability on takeoff is:

- Three point attitude (all three wheels on the ground.) The aircraft is directionally stable (as long as the tail wheel is locked.)

- Two point attitude, slow speed (rolling on the main gear, tail wheel off the ground.) The aircraft is directionally unstable. This is because the main gear (and their contact point on the ground) are ahead of the aircraft's center of gravity. Any side load on the aircraft results in an opposite side load on the gear. This will try to rotate the aircraft around its CG, and as the rotation continues, the side force from the gear increases (the aircraft yaws while still going forward, increasing the slip angle of the tires and the side force.) If the aircraft starts to yaw, the stablizing effect of vertical stablilizer behind the CG due to slip angle grows more slowly than the destabilizing effect of the gear in front of the CG. Note that if the tailwheel is free to castor, it won't provide any stabilizing effect aft of the CG, and the plane will be just as unstable in the three point attitude.

- Two point attitude, high speed. Now there is enough side force aft of the CG (due to side aerodynamic loads on the vertical stabilizer due to slip angle) that this stabilizing force (moment, actually) is greater than the destabilizing moment from the main gear. As the aircraft speeds up, the weight carried by the gear goes down (as does the side force and moment it can generate, remember force due to friction=(coefficient of friction)Normal force.) and the stabilizing moment from the tail goes up with the square of the velocity. The speed at which these two values cross is fuzzy, and changes as the aircraft bounces, but it's where the aircraft becomes stable in yaw.

What all this gobbledy-**** means is that the aircraft should be stable as you start the takeoff roll (provided you've locked the tailwheel.) You will have to dance on the rudder pedals once the tail comes up to keep pointing straight, because the aircraft is unstable in yaw at this point. The vertical stabilizer isn't generating enough corrective yaw moment on its own, so the pilot has to actively control yaw using what little force is available with the rudder pedals. As speed builds, the vertical stabilizer becomes more effective, and active corrections aren't required any more.
The same stages, in opposite order, apply during landing.
As Oleg has apparently said in interviews, at some point simulating all this detail would require more computing horsepower than most (or all) of us have right now.

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XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 09:14 PM
wow, thanks for the great explination

still seems like that it could be modeled to some extent, wouldnt that still be better than not at all?

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XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 02:43 AM
~S!

Great Post Blottogg!

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XyZspineZyX
08-13-2003, 03:00 PM
Here's what appears to be <A HREF=http://www-sdb.larc.nasa.gov/aiaa/pdf/aiaa-2000-4303.pdf>an interesting article</A> on simulating aircraft ground behaviour.

I have only skimmed through it as of yet myself, but thought I'd share anyway.

Cheers,
Fred

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