PDA

View Full Version : Vortiger thoughts + 3 vids and reasoning. I do want a real discussion.



Vendelkin
02-09-2019, 10:42 PM
I see the same few people respond to every vortiger is fine/nerf vort thread @_@ I might be one of them. (Raime, Siegfried, feel free tho, in fact i invite your thoughts on what I write here) Please watch the 3 videos I link to before commenting as part of the discussion to follow I would like to be based upon seeing what occurs in those videos. You dont have to watch the whole videos just the segments I mention/highlight (infinite's video is 15 minutes long @_@ the segment I want people to see is only about 20 seconds. The other two videos the whole second half is interesting material) Also note that I play from the console perspective.

I am posting this thread twice cause I cant decide if it should be in discussion/feedback or general discussion. it will get seen more in general, but it BELONGS in suggestion/feedback probably

Anyways my thoughts after lots of discussion and video watching, and gameplay. 3 things should be fixed or tweaked.

#1. Guaranteed dmg after bash. Should either be reduced to 15, OR reduced to 18 but made a little more react-able with a longer GB vulnerability window after.

#2. Bulwark Counter. Also known as the evil flippy counter thing that everyone wants to bait out. It's a straight upgrade from aramushas full block in every existing metric, but I still think it only needs a minor tweak. It needs to lose the invulnerability and instead get high dmg reduction. it is a very powerful, but also bait-able tool. still even the recovery is better than Ara's full block @_@ Point: I would rather see Ara's full block reworked and maybe him given some kinda dodge attack than see bulwark counter nerfed a lot.

#3 Bulwark Counter and Drop Attacks. This one is debatable. Drop attacks were always risky, because of environ death, bad tracking, other weird issues. and Every hero had a tool to deal with it, rolling away. This required great skill and awareness and so too does the vortiger need great skill to bulwark counter time the drop attack, HOWEVER it changes the zip line game a little bit too much. there are certain spots in dominion and tribute matches where the vortiger now has a distinctive advantage. he can defend under the end of them in a way no player other have, which makes having at least one of him on your team in these game modes a must. In short because its too risky to drop attack him especially if he is safely standing in a zone by himself you have to drop off the zipline without attacking either a bit early and take damage, or drop off and get hit by the vort during your recovery (which I believe you do have some damage reduction during tho). Personally I think he should have to roll out of the way like everyone else. If he keeps his ability to counter drop attacks tho I want one thing to be changed. He SHOULD NOT immediately get a full revenge bar from surviving a drop attack.

Final thoughts: Vortiger + Shaman + Shugoki/Tiandi + any Bleeder may be the new meta team. Seriously watch the second listed vid to find out why i think this.

Also did you know Vortiger can counter another vortiger's counter and save his team-mate from damage? PRETTY COOL

Drop Attack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7uZirh9ddk starting at 9:26 really only 20 seconds necessary.

Wombo Combo's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zohx9vCRcc starting at 2:58

Nearly comprehensive list of bulwark counter capabilities: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvLlsCPXyXM starting at 3:50 but you should just watch this whole one.

Vendelkin
02-09-2019, 10:59 PM
*This post location reserved as a running list of people you should just ignore because they are trolling should this discussion reach that level*

EvoX.
02-10-2019, 01:57 AM
There is no discussion to be had about your first point - the Shield Bash is too strong and too safe, quite possibly the most annoying and least fun move to play against in the game. If the damage were to stay 20 at 500ms speed, the recovery should be 800ms. Currently it's ludicrous.

As for the rest of his kit - meh. The character has lackluster, unintelligent design and an extremely bad flow, the closest thing he has to depth is light/heavy recovery cancel with bulwark and instant bulwark on block. Those allow for some stylish executes and force more caution and smart plays... that is, if any Prior player had any reason to use anything other than neutral SB and the light/SB exploit. I don't think he should be fully invulnerable while in his counter, either, but that will border on overnerfing him.

What definitely needs to happen with the character:

1. Increase recovery of a missed SB
2. Remove blocked light confirming an SB on an OOS opponent
3. Remove successful light confirming an SB on a late guard switch

Those are the 3 things that are just plain dumb: they either did not playtest him at all or intentionally left them in to promote a broken character and get more money. Either way, all 3 should be fixed.

Vendelkin
02-10-2019, 03:03 AM
Im fairly certain that 2 and 3 of your points Evo will be happening. Any opinions on my #2 and #3?

As for your number one i agree with it and i think at this point most people also agree with it at least as far as it being a problem.

Mia.Nora
02-10-2019, 03:46 AM
I have been away from the game and forums a while, after a week of playing with/against BP I can certainly say FH devs haven't learned their lesson in the slightest.

As much as a chain is as strong as its weakest link, a hero is as strong as its strongest move. I hear tons of people saying "he is balanced, aside from his bash". Well genius guess what, all BPs do for 80% of fight is bash. People have been complaining about Conq for months, and aside from his bash he has nothing. When you make one move perform so much more better than everything else in the kit, of course everyone will capitalize on just doing that, it not rocket science.

After Kensei rework I thought FH devs finally figured it out, but nope. They keep making new heroes with a large kit that no one will ever use, and one gimmick that everyone will keep spamming whole match.

This game will stay where it is until FH devs understands the concept of making a kit where whole kit is viable is the way to go. Instead they keep creating more and more one trick ponies.

Tundra 793
02-10-2019, 04:16 AM
I have been away from the game and forums a while, after a week of playing with/against BP I can certainly say FH devs haven't learned their lesson in the slightest.

Always good to see familiar faces around here.

I suppose one could say that the developers learned their lesson, in that in the last two years we always got at least 2 annoying new heroes each season, but this year we're only getting 4 in total!

Reading peoples' reaction to BP, and the Wu-Lin, has been of great interest to me. I flat out stopped playing PvP many many moons ago, and while the game is a bit more boring now, I largely feel absolutely none of the pains and frustrations that still plague y'all.
The players will always, it seems, flock to the easiest and cheesiest moves available to them, and judging by the rage I keep seein', the developers haven't learned how to fix that yet.

Vendelkin
02-10-2019, 05:45 AM
More comments on how the bash is the obvious worst part of his kit. Do either you tundra, or mia, like my proposed changes? If not why? (Too weak or too strong still in your opinions) and then tell me what you would propose. Also if you havent please watch those videos and give me input on your thoughts. Thanks!

Mia.Nora
02-10-2019, 08:04 AM
More comments on how the bash is the obvious worst part of his kit. Do either you tundra, or mia, like my proposed changes? If not why? (Too weak or too strong still in your opinions) and then tell me what you would propose. Also if you havent please watch those videos and give me input on your thoughts. Thanks!

Basic rule of some fix is better than no fix applies, so any of the suggestions you have is better than current situation; but in my gut what I feel is that his bash from neutral and his bash following a light should be separated in terms of speed / recovery and the damage of light following them.

As you also mentioned bash from neutral should have more recovery time to allow for a punish on whiff, also light following neutral bash shouldn't do as much damage. 20 is way too good for how little risk is involved. Maybe speed of bash after light should be slightly slower, since the other option in combo is an undodgable heavy.

As of now, majority of BP fights are as follows; bash>light>bash/undodgable heavy. If they start to lose back dash and bulwark to heal and throw unblockable/feint if you get too close, and flip over if you try to bash or throw a long range unblockable attack. Way too tedious.

ArchDukeInstinct
02-10-2019, 08:49 AM
As of now, majority of BP fights are as follows; bash>light>bash/undodgable heavy. If they start to lose back dash and bulwark to heal and throw unblockable/feint if you get too close, and flip over if you try to bash or throw a long range unblockable attack. Way too tedious.

You can't do a bash > light > bash. Light counts as 2nd in the combo.

Mia.Nora
02-10-2019, 09:36 AM
You can't do a bash > light > bash. Light counts as 2nd in the combo.

Yea, lazy writing. I thought it was an ok way to combine bash>light and light>bash>light and light>undodgable heavy into one thing like that.

rottmeister
02-10-2019, 03:57 PM
1) I also think his guaranteed dmg should be toned down a bit OR his bash should be more punishable. Imo it's either or, not both. I'd rather see it being more punishable so that BP's won't just do shielbashes over and over.

2) I don't think BP's Bulwark Counter needs a nerf. It does 30 dmg, right? That's the equivalent of a Nuxia trap so I'm completely fine with it. It's a bit like a deflect (timing wise) and some of those do some massive damage. You can't just stay in the stance or else you'll get GB'ed. Not sure if you can counter the GB by either going out of the stance prematurely or do the UB heavy. I'm not that experienced with BP yet so I don't know.

3) You shouldn't perform a drop attack if you're not certain it will hit. He could just roll away/sprint away when the "!" pops up like everyone else and then you'd be completely dead. If he's fighting someone from your team, that teammate should either try to get him to parry something/parry him/GB him so that you'll be able to get a confirmed kill. You could also wait until your teammate gets flipped (not too long)/misses the counter and then jump, It's very occasional and it frankly gives you a second chance because he could've rolled away and see you splat on the floor (I'm talking about the bigger ledges). Now in situations like in your first vid I think it's justified too. That BP risks getting insta-killed while he could just run/roll away.
The thing I agree with is that it shouldn't grant BP revenge.

Vendelkin
02-10-2019, 08:43 PM
...
2) I don't think BP's Bulwark Counter needs a nerf. It does 30 dmg, right? That's the equivalent of a Nuxia trap so I'm completely fine with it. It's a bit like a deflect (timing wise) and some of those do some massive damage. You can't just stay in the stance or else you'll get GB'ed. Not sure if you can counter the GB by either going out of the stance prematurely or do the UB heavy. I'm not that experienced with BP yet so I don't know.
...

Your counter/further points on 1 and 3 are good but i want to talk further about point 2.

Nuxia trap is unique and is not a counter, but rather a high risk reward offense so i dont think its comparable. Also deflects definately are harder to perform. Note* i may not have frame data perfect for bulwark counter or fast flow into bulwark counter (been trying to find it but my regular sources for frame and ms speed data are not clear)
A) deflects have a smaller success window, being smaller even then parries bulwark as far as i know is 300ms duration with 300ms entry when not fast flowing.
B) they require harder input and reflexive timing and are very high risk when dodging towards the opponent (top guard).
C) They(deflects) cant be used agains bashes so they rely on a lot more than timing, but reading as well.
D) bulwark counter actually direcrtly counters most deflects (watch rhe other two videos fully to see examples of this. I think its in myth 1)
E) deflects seldom guarantee further team damage, whereas coordination with bulwark counter does allow an extra hit or two as the opponent stands up.
F) also deflects for some dont even guarantee any damage, or worse end up trading damage which doesnt work well for the assassin (like orochi getting hit during his light deflect since it doesnt break combo)

If it should be treated like a deflect then it would need to entirely lose its invulnerability and be even harder to pull off.

Imo the only comparable moves are other fullblock counters. I need to find precise info about the frame/speed data for it regular and fast flow. But i do know it is capable of coming out as fast if not faster than the aramushas full block if you block a hit first

Vendelkin
02-10-2019, 08:56 PM
Yeah most frama data analysis only touches on the from neutral in bulwark counter. Its faster with fast flow post block. But im fairly certain nuetral entry is 200-300ms with 300ms active and 500ms vuln after. Making it 100ms shorter wiff time than ara (which doesnt guarantee dmg except ring the bell) and of course dont forget it counters bashes and unblockables too while providing invunerability.

Exiting fullblock without counter is 100ms

I suspect based on videos that fast flow into it is 100ms effectively like ara post block.

I may do a comparison video to ara full block someday soon in the training arena to build a comprehensive list of what ara fullblock works on.

rottmeister
02-10-2019, 10:53 PM
Your counter/further points on 1 and 3 are good but i want to talk further about point 2.

Nuxia trap is unique and is not a counter, but rather a high risk reward offense so i dont think its comparable. Also deflects definately are harder to perform. Note* i may not have frame data perfect for bulwark counter or fast flow into bulwark counter (been trying to find it but my regular sources for frame and ms speed data are not clear)
A) deflects have a smaller success window, being smaller even then parries bulwark as far as i know is 300ms duration with 300ms entry when not fast flowing.
B) they require harder input and reflexive timing and are very high risk when dodging towards the opponent (top guard).
C) They(deflects) cant be used agains bashes so they rely on a lot more than timing, but reading as well.
D) bulwark counter actually direcrtly counters most deflects (watch rhe other two videos fully to see examples of this. I think its in myth 1)
E) deflects seldom guarantee further team damage, whereas coordination with bulwark counter does allow an extra hit or two as the opponent stands up.
F) also deflects for some dont even guarantee any damage, or worse end up trading damage which doesnt work well for the assassin (like orochi getting hit during his light deflect since it doesnt break combo)

If it should be treated like a deflect then it would need to entirely lose its invulnerability and be even harder to pull off.

Imo the only comparable moves are other fullblock counters. I need to find precise info about the frame/speed data for it regular and fast flow. But i do know it is capable of coming out as fast if not faster than the aramushas full block if you block a hit first

Ah now you see I totally overlooked the fact that it could counter deflects :/

I even watched Marco Yolo's vid the day it came out. Whoops, my bad. I like the wombo-combos though.

Well to be fair Nuxia's deflect can be parried and deflected. Doesn't sound right, does it? Nah the Bulwark Counter shouldn't be able to counter deflects imo.

Coming next week I'll try to formulate a better response than this abomination. My schedule is awful and is killing me from the inside. College... best time of your life... nothing screams excitement like getting up at 5 and being back home at 19.

With "5" I basically mean anything before 6, so 5:59 is still 5 for me, lol.

Anyway thank you for being constructive and I'll think about your response.

Vendelkin
02-11-2019, 01:03 AM
Im just on my last semester in college myself. And very stoked to be done. But not to lose my campus job and have to immerse myself in the world of entry level haha

Vendelkin
02-11-2019, 01:07 AM
...

I even watched Marco Yolo's vid the day it came out. Whoops, my bad. I like the wombo-combos though.

...

Me too! They are all real strong but they demand and create a new style of team coordination that i absolutely love. I have personally pulled off the shugoki launch into black prior myself three times now in pvp matches with a friend. We make a point of staying opposite sides so i can send him victims now and its always glorious haha. Also the feeling of calling out "fat boy delivery" on my mic is glorious.

Vendelkin
02-11-2019, 01:17 AM
Also @siegried_z and @knight_raime where are you guys responses? Ive literally seen you two respond to nearly every vortiger post and i would value your input on my proposed changes.

Knight_Raime
02-11-2019, 02:05 AM
Also @siegried_z and @knight_raime where are you guys responses? Ive literally seen you two respond to nearly every vortiger post and i would value your input on my proposed changes.

I personally stopped touching posts about Black prior because 90% of it is just people REEEEing and not people who want an actual discussion about him. I'd be happy to give feedback on your suggested changes if you could quote me with a summary of said changes.

Vendelkin
02-11-2019, 07:10 AM
I personally stopped touching posts about Black prior because 90% of it is just people REEEEing and not people who want an actual discussion about him. I'd be happy to give feedback on your suggested changes if you could quote me with a summary of said changes.
3 changes

#1 reduce guaranteed light post bash dmg to 15 OR reduce to 18 and make it slightly more vulnerable to gb on recovery.

#2 bulwark counter tweaks. I would rather see aras and other full blocks improved than it heavily nerfed, however. 100ms buff to active time, thus also making the 500ms vulnerabulity time more open to attack (this would match it with aras near perfectly when fast flowed timing wise) remove invulnerability instead granting high damage reduction. Potentially slightly nerfing damage to be more in line with other similar counters.
And finally make it unable to be used on impulse against deflects (it currently beats out half of the deflects).

#3 consider removing drop attack counter, as an alternative just make it so countering a drop attack doesnt immediatly fill the revenge bar.

You should read the whole thread tho theres some good reasoning that occured. Also watch these segments of these videos.

Drop Attack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7uZirh9ddk starting at 9:26 really only 20 seconds necessary.

Wombo Combo's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zohx9vCRcc starting at 2:58

Nearly comprehensive list of bulwark counter capabilities: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvLlsCPXyXM starting at 3:50 but you should just watch this whole one.

Also know even if you are completly opposed to all of these im just interested in your input atm now that more time has past and more people have tested things. Please do watch those videos tho before responding.

rottmeister
02-11-2019, 07:26 AM
Im just on my last semester in college myself. And very stoked to be done. But not to lose my campus job and have to immerse myself in the world of entry level haha

Congrats! I'm around the halfway point now. Depending on how well I perform this year, next year could be my last on campus. Considering last year was my first year, I'd say I'm doing okay.

TimeToCrusade
02-11-2019, 09:50 AM
You all forget that this game is basically 4v4s now, other mods are pretty much dead. So all that 1v1 theory crafting is nice but in 4v4 he is beyond OP. BP ganksquads are worst than cent squads in S2. His feats are just absurd, the shield has no cd, he can delete or even prevent a revenge, which allows him to SB without ever worrying about ennemy revenge. And the full block heal is actually a huge counter to bleed and fire dmg.

A squad of 4 BP can shield themselves every 12sc (give or take) which is insane. The other big issue that appears in 4v4 is the tracking and range of his attacks, the undodgeable property..why is it even there? I thought about it a lot and the only answer I can come up with is to annoy people.

The range on his attacks is deceptive imo, I often get catch what feels like 8m away from him. This combined with the undodgeable is really frustrating

That being said, the damage on his bash should be reduced AND he should be vulnerable longer after a whiff. There is no point in nerfing the damage if you can't punish the move, he will just bash a bit more to kill you.
Bulwark will be the most effective tool in the game on good players, a preventive nerf would be nice, but it won't happen so whatever

Also: remove undodgeable, nerf range/tracking, remove light bash light, increase lvl 1 feat cd, make that the block heal can't prevent bleed, remove the shieldbreaker, pure and simple

Thats what's sensible to do, but would be alongside many many other nerfs (shaman,zerk,shinobi,conq,warden,wu lin, HL,warlord,goki) but none of them will ever happen

Goat_of_Vermund
02-11-2019, 02:15 PM
Yeah, nerf warlord... Good idea, nerf the weakest heavy further.

And while Bp bash is too strong, what you suggest would make him a second warlord.
Undodgable is there because it is slow, and catches those dodging the bash, it is a mindgame tool. The only problem in the core mechanic is his bash being unpunishable. The feats might be much, but you can build various effective teamfight groups without them:

1. 2 Wardens with inspire, one of them with healing banner and one of them with morale booster. Cent with phalanx. Highlander with heroic aura.

2. Berserker with purple flag. Orochi with kiai and nailbomb. Two shamans with beartraps.

3. 3 Lawbringers. With 15 bombs in total, all of them with juggernaut. 1 peacekeeper with sharpen blade, fiat lux and fear itself.

It is only coordination it takes, the full might of any four characters fighting as a group is enormous. And all group has weaknesses as well. For example, bp might be strong defensively, but they lack damage feats if you build a team on all defense.
Btw, support feats can very well be a waste. Some team mates just doesn't worth saving.

EvoX.
02-11-2019, 04:57 PM
Im fairly certain that 2 and 3 of your points Evo will be happening. Any opinions on my #2 and #3?

More comments on how the bash is the obvious worst part of his kit...

I don't have a competent opinion to offer on #2 and 3, they concern his ability in 4v4's which I despise and don't play. Experienced Dominion players should touch upon those, I prefer to not delve into things I'm unfamiliar with - it doesn't bring anything to a discussion other than, what would most likely be, wrong observations.

I also forgot to mention that Prior currently has two different flickers. That makes 4 bugs in total with him that can be abused, what a laugh.

Tobias96716
02-11-2019, 05:06 PM
Ok...if you can go into a block,dodge,parry, or deflect...of course you will beable to flip...because its a move that you must be vulnerable to GB's and time it perfectly or else you get hit...

Knight_Raime
02-11-2019, 08:01 PM
3 changes

#1 reduce guaranteed light post bash dmg to 15 OR reduce to 18 and make it slightly more vulnerable to gb on recovery.

#2 bulwark counter tweaks. I would rather see aras and other full blocks improved than it heavily nerfed, however. 100ms buff to active time, thus also making the 500ms vulnerabulity time more open to attack (this would match it with aras near perfectly when fast flowed timing wise) remove invulnerability instead granting high damage reduction. Potentially slightly nerfing damage to be more in line with other similar counters.
And finally make it unable to be used on impulse against deflects (it currently beats out half of the deflects).

#3 consider removing drop attack counter, as an alternative just make it so countering a drop attack doesnt immediatly fill the revenge bar.

You should read the whole thread tho theres some good reasoning that occured. Also watch these segments of these videos.

Drop Attack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7uZirh9ddk starting at 9:26 really only 20 seconds necessary.

Wombo Combo's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zohx9vCRcc starting at 2:58

Nearly comprehensive list of bulwark counter capabilities: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvLlsCPXyXM starting at 3:50 but you should just watch this whole one.

Also know even if you are completly opposed to all of these im just interested in your input atm now that more time has past and more people have tested things. Please do watch those videos tho before responding.

#1) I think reducing the damage of his light finisher is fine. 15 might be a bit too low for my taste. maybe 16-17.

#2) I think the activation time is perfectly fine at 200ms currently. It prevents him from being able to bullwark from neutral on reaction to fast things already. Increasing the time to go in would also fudge with his ability to use his unblockable heavy in his current mix up games. And due to it's speed it's already pretty telegraphed on when it's committed to.

#3) I don't think removing the ability to counter a drop attack is really needed. The fact that he can gain revenge attacks from countering is the real issue here and that's something that should be tweakable without removing this.

Are you also wanting my feedback on what i'd do to him?

Siegfried-Z
02-11-2019, 08:07 PM
I see the same few people respond to every vortiger is fine/nerf vort thread @_@ I might be one of them. (Raime, Siegfried, feel free tho, in fact i invite your thoughts on what I write here) Please watch the 3 videos I link to before commenting as part of the discussion to follow I would like to be based upon seeing what occurs in those videos. You dont have to watch the whole videos just the segments I mention/highlight (infinite's video is 15 minutes long @_@ the segment I want people to see is only about 20 seconds. The other two videos the whole second half is interesting material) Also note that I play from the console perspective.

I am posting this thread twice cause I cant decide if it should be in discussion/feedback or general discussion. it will get seen more in general, but it BELONGS in suggestion/feedback probably

Anyways my thoughts after lots of discussion and video watching, and gameplay. 3 things should be fixed or tweaked.

#1. Guaranteed dmg after bash. Should either be reduced to 15, OR reduced to 18 but made a little more react-able with a longer GB vulnerability window after.

#2. Bulwark Counter. Also known as the evil flippy counter thing that everyone wants to bait out. It's a straight upgrade from aramushas full block in every existing metric, but I still think it only needs a minor tweak. It needs to lose the invulnerability and instead get high dmg reduction. it is a very powerful, but also bait-able tool. still even the recovery is better than Ara's full block @_@ Point: I would rather see Ara's full block reworked and maybe him given some kinda dodge attack than see bulwark counter nerfed a lot.

#3 Bulwark Counter and Drop Attacks. This one is debatable. Drop attacks were always risky, because of environ death, bad tracking, other weird issues. and Every hero had a tool to deal with it, rolling away. This required great skill and awareness and so too does the vortiger need great skill to bulwark counter time the drop attack, HOWEVER it changes the zip line game a little bit too much. there are certain spots in dominion and tribute matches where the vortiger now has a distinctive advantage. he can defend under the end of them in a way no player other have, which makes having at least one of him on your team in these game modes a must. In short because its too risky to drop attack him especially if he is safely standing in a zone by himself you have to drop off the zipline without attacking either a bit early and take damage, or drop off and get hit by the vort during your recovery (which I believe you do have some damage reduction during tho). Personally I think he should have to roll out of the way like everyone else. If he keeps his ability to counter drop attacks tho I want one thing to be changed. He SHOULD NOT immediately get a full revenge bar from surviving a drop attack.

Final thoughts: Vortiger + Shaman + Shugoki/Tiandi + any Bleeder may be the new meta team. Seriously watch the second listed vid to find out why i think this.

Also did you know Vortiger can counter another vortiger's counter and save his team-mate from damage? PRETTY COOL

Drop Attack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7uZirh9ddk starting at 9:26 really only 20 seconds necessary.

Wombo Combo's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zohx9vCRcc starting at 2:58

Nearly comprehensive list of bulwark counter capabilities: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvLlsCPXyXM starting at 3:50 but you should just watch this whole one.

Hey Vendelkin, Sorry for the late reply. I wasn't too much on the forum these days.

Nice from you to ask for our point of view.

I've already seen the last vid but not the 2 others. Tbh i wans't aware of Bp being able to flip someone already in the air despite playing only 4v4. What a surprise !

But to talk about the 3 points you raised :

1/ I agree on that. I think this is the moove which makes people frustrated the most with BP. BP first light is not that hard to parry if you keep in mind most of them still try to engage with a light because they want to spam this Light - Sb - Light combo.
But i know not every players are able to light parry, and as i am mostly a console player i am pretty aware this can be a pain.
So, yes BP SB after a light should get his speed slighty reduced and so should be the recovery because this is kind of "too safe" currently for a 35 dmg combo.
I also agree the dmg could be reduce to 18. But as JJ dmg still hasn't been touched.. for the moment i Don't think BP one's are a problem. His dmg are fine overall except this 20dmg light finisher. But if his Sb become harder to perform and more punishable, then i am not against letting this at 20dmg. The most important part is the speed/revovery one i Believe. Because at the end 18 or 20 doesn't change that much.


2/ I can only agree with his flip loosing invulnerability and get dmg reduction. Every others char in the game got only dmg reduction during their "cut scene" if we can word it like that. This look just unfair.

3/ I agree too this is very unfair he can feed all his revenge by a drop attack flip. Same for his ability to flip an opponent in the air etc. I mean, this is a minor thing as it is very situational. But still, this is unfair.

But tbh i think the devs themselves weren't even aware from all these details. They didn't test Vortiger Properly and i Believe they discover a lots of things which have to be adjust with some vids just as all of us.

The most important one is the guaranteed SB while opponent is OOS or BP is in revenge. This is far too strong and i hope this is the first thing they are going to fix.

To sum it ip, some minor tweaks have to be made on BP (OOS pressure, Drop attack feeding revenge, Flip invulnerability and so on). If the team make them fast enough and slighly nerf his L-SB-L combo, i think people gonna get far less angry at BP as they look to be currently. And he gonna be fine in my opinon.

But are they going to do so ? I Don't know. It looks they did'nt Always listen players feedbacks to make their changes.
After all they release all the wulins with 400ms mooves despite most players said they Don't like it and they release BP with lots of Bash despite the same negative feedback about bash amount in the game.
It looks they just Don't feel so inspired to give some usefull Tools to new char without doing that kind of stuff. Or maybe they just don't have the time for that. Because currently they still have a lots of thing to fix but keep in mind their current priority is already the new Samurai for sure.

I personally enjoy BP and feel he is close to be perfectly balance, but need soem minor tweaks. Let's see how it goes ;)

Vendelkin
02-11-2019, 10:53 PM
#1) I think reducing the damage of his light finisher is fine. 15 might be a bit too low for my taste. maybe 16-17.

#2) I think the activation time is perfectly fine at 200ms currently. It prevents him from being able to bullwark from neutral on reaction to fast things already. Increasing the time to go in would also fudge with his ability to use his unblockable heavy in his current mix up games. And due to it's speed it's already pretty telegraphed on when it's committed to.

#3) I don't think removing the ability to counter a drop attack is really needed. The fact that he can gain revenge attacks from countering is the real issue here and that's something that should be tweakable without removing this.

Are you also wanting my feedback on what i'd do to him?
Sure yeah!
And the more i think about it the more i think you're right about #3.

On #2 im not propsing nerfing entry time, actually extending active window 100ms which then puts it in the same range as aramusha but allso puts the 500ms recovery 100ms later which is slightly easier to counter. So the change would make it slightly easier to pull off with a bigger window, but also slightly more vulnerable on wiff.

Vendelkin
02-11-2019, 10:58 PM
...
To sum it ip, some minor tweaks have to be made on BP (OOS pressure, Drop attack feeding revenge, Flip invulnerability and so on). If the team make them fast enough and slighly nerf his L-SB-L combo, i think people gonna get far less angry at BP as they look to be currently. ...

Let's see how it goes ;)
I like this summary thanks for the input. And yeah i hope of few of these at least get handled by the devs.

Knight_Raime
02-11-2019, 11:30 PM
Sure yeah!
And the more i think about it the more i think you're right about #3.

On #2 im not propsing nerfing entry time, actually extending active window 100ms which then puts it in the same range as aramusha but allso puts the 500ms recovery 100ms later which is slightly easier to counter. So the change would make it slightly easier to pull off with a bigger window, but also slightly more vulnerable on wiff.

Personally i'd:

~Nerf bash recovery from 600ms to 700ms
~Make bash come 100-200ms after light to fix it being guaranteed when it shouldn't.
~Nerf light/heavy finisher damage by a few points
~Slightly increase range on bash.
~Slightly increase tracking on heavy soft feint bash
~Increase range/tracking on forward dash heavy
~slightly buff crushing counter damage from both light and dash heavy
~Exit time from bullwark increased from 100ms to 200ms
~Bullwark no longer gives damage immunity, replaced with damage reduction
~Bullwark flip no longer gives revenge
~People flipped by bullwark get damage reduction

Vendelkin
02-12-2019, 06:25 AM
I would love it if all those changes happened except i actually have no idea where his crushing counter sits right now. Thats a very nice list.

Also hes not the only hero that needs a forward dash chase move. Theres a lot that could use that.

After all your proposed changes occured id maybe still just want to address some of the fast flows from bulwark counter so via some method it couldnt counter any deflects. Cause currently it just counters too much imo for its one vulnerability. (UBs, bashes, combos if unfeinted, and half of the deflects) deflects in general i think need some reworking.

Knight_Raime
02-12-2019, 05:54 PM
I would love it if all those changes happened except i actually have no idea where his crushing counter sits right now. Thats a very nice list.

Also hes not the only hero that needs a forward dash chase move. Theres a lot that could use that.

After all your proposed changes occured id maybe still just want to address some of the fast flows from bulwark counter so via some method it couldnt counter any deflects. Cause currently it just counters too much imo for its one vulnerability. (UBs, bashes, combos if unfeinted, and half of the deflects) deflects in general i think need some reworking.

Currently his crushing counter damage alone is 20. But it guarantees a bash and bash gives his light finisher which is 20. that's 40 damage. When they remove the ability to get a guaranteed bash from instances when he shouldn't it'll be 20. Which is a bit low. I think it should be bumped to be 25 at least. And he does have that in the form of his dash forward heavy. It just doesn't have the range or tracking to chase. Hence why I asked for that.

The only fast flow that's potentially an issue imo is his fast flow from blocking because that shuts out mid chain pressure that can't be feinted into GB. But it can be played around via mind games. I'd rather heros like zerk/Nuxia get fixed to not overly rely on their 400ms chains than remove/nerf fast flow from block. As it's already a risky thing to do in 4's. and yeah deflects have needed an overhaul for awhile now.

Vendelkin
02-13-2019, 04:47 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spNzje_zuuk
New 8 man challenge. Infinite Bulwark counter chain. thought some of you might enjoy this. Marco Yolo is my recent favorite in for honor vids haha