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XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 04:08 PM
When pulling lead pursuit, I have this habit of dropping my nose after firing to see where my shots went (to see if I actually hit the guy I was going after).

Asking the veterans here - when taking a defelection shot like that and the bogey is below your fuselage do you do the same? I have a feeling not, because once I do I end up losing the lead advantage and dropping back into lag pursuit. If you don't do that, how do you resist the urge to check? Do you just keep firing until you guess you are past him?

The reason I ask is because this guy on the greatergreen server last night got right behind me and took ONE shot and PKed me...I want to be able to do the same!

I'm sure that more success will come with more experience but I thought I'd ask those who might know...

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XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 04:08 PM
When pulling lead pursuit, I have this habit of dropping my nose after firing to see where my shots went (to see if I actually hit the guy I was going after).

Asking the veterans here - when taking a defelection shot like that and the bogey is below your fuselage do you do the same? I have a feeling not, because once I do I end up losing the lead advantage and dropping back into lag pursuit. If you don't do that, how do you resist the urge to check? Do you just keep firing until you guess you are past him?

The reason I ask is because this guy on the greatergreen server last night got right behind me and took ONE shot and PKed me...I want to be able to do the same!

I'm sure that more success will come with more experience but I thought I'd ask those who might know...

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XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 04:11 PM
You have to resist the urge to be able to stay in the fight. Getting deflection shots in your favorite plane comes with time, practice, and allot of dissapointment along the way.

Cirrus's Dictum: Position is always more important than a snap shot.

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 04:15 PM
yes, this is one of those things where practice makes perfect. doing a quick mission offline is the best place to practice settings up shots, set the AI on ace difficulty.

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XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 04:17 PM
Get closer=less deflection. Otherwise it should just be a snapshot, and in that situation, you don't need to see if you hit him. After you think you have gotten closer, unload some g's, and if you did the right thing you should be able to see him close enough where the dash board isn't. If you don't see him, well, keep unloading g's and pick up speed and find him again!


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XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 04:22 PM
Don't check. Damage is just as effective if you know about it or not. Avoid those defection shots! Fly hard, shoot easy.

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XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 04:29 PM
"I end up losing the lead advantage and dropping back into lag pursuit"

I don't think of lead vs lag as advantage/disadvantage - I view it as an issue of closure, based on speed and distance.
If you are at a higher speed and closing fast and the bandit breaks, a lag pursuit could help you not pass the bogey by pulling a high yo-yo or lag roll. If your slower or wanting to decrease your AOT you'll pull a lead pursuit manuveur.

Pulling lead is to reduce your AOT. If they are cutting up from under your nose you risk losing track of the bandit because he is not visible to you and to me it's a guess shot, unless your absolutely sure they are going to cut right up in front of your gunsite.

My concern in this circumstance is more about risking overshooting the bandit if your coming in from a higher altitude a lag roll might get you a better shot without losing your high energy state by chopping throttle in a high G turn.


It is a tough thing to do - I find the challenge in gauging my energy state and the bandit's energy state - and keeping track of the bogey in a full real environment as being quite a challenge. Understanding the aircraft helps as Phist25 notes - ie. I tend to avoid high deflection shots with the .50's - I have much better success in being patient and catching the bogey in my sites.

I like that quote Phist25 - your very right in your comments - For me it's slowly being a mantra - lol

I'd say the most important thing is the angle of attack and the rate of closure in making any of these decisions




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XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 04:51 PM
just a thought; you're practicing the lead shots with cockpit on, right? ("ennemy not visible below nose")-

practice with QMBs or online df with the 'pit off-
I do it with a yak-9k (massive, slow firing cannon) and it's helped alot with my gunnery, I find that my situational awareness and mental image of where the ennemy is likely to be have increased in cockpit on situations.

Hope this helps /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
Cold Gambler-

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 05:16 PM
I know this has been asked a zillion times - but a lag roll is...?

High yo yo I think I have down - and I've checked the video on the mudmover site - but I want to make sure I've got it right.

Diving down on a bogey thats pulling up and to the left. Sensing I won't make the turn, I pull up, bank and roll to the RIGHT, continuing to pull hard Gs until the bogey comes back into view.

If this is true, the only difference between a lag roll and a vector roll is that on the lag roll I actually pull up and gain altitude before rolling over?



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XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 05:29 PM
All good advice. But somehow or other you've gotta check. If not for damage then to at least see if the bogey is still there!

Maybe it's a case of pulling too much lead for too long, but it's happened to me where a savvy pilot has sensed that he was under my nose and changed direction. Then I go for a little peek and...no more bad guy.

So, yeah practice, practice, practice. Take your deflection shot but always be mindful of trying to gain a better position. That way you won't have to rely on a deflection shot, he'll be in your sights.

Hell. I could use more practice. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 07:30 PM
I'm getting the impression that I'm taking more deflection shots than most people do. Most of my shots are about 90% deflection.

When you say fly hard, shoot easy you mean work like heck to get right behind the bogey, I mean less than 100m then fire. This would make sense since the guy last night that took me out was RIGHT on my tail.

The best do this right?

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XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 07:35 PM
Don't forget sometimes it's you being pursued and can take advantage of this blind spot.

Maybe in the planes with mirrors you can angle it in such a way as to be able to pear down and front instead of behind


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The world will change when you are ready to pronounce this oath:
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Miss A. R.

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 08:09 PM
JRH147 wrote:
- When pulling lead pursuit, I have this habit of
- dropping my nose after firing to see where my shots
- went (to see if I actually hit the guy I was going
- after).
----------------------

It all depends of your distance to the target its speed and turnrate. this can only be calculated with experience.

Many aces remembered that they allways had to pull more
lead (deflection) than thougt from the beginning.
This was always the critical factor, to understand how much lead .

For obvious reasons the view from a real fighter was better.so u cant lean at any side.
But u can on the other hand watch your track after the fight and see what happened, and learn from ur misstakes.

And...remember, an experienced opponent will see u pull lead, and he knows u dont see him for a moment, and may be
snap turning in another direction.

As mr G. Rall once answered the question; what is the most favorable position to attack a spitfire?
"You cant allways choose the position. You are in. You have to see how you come out."

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 08:51 PM
OK, my experience comes from flying FW190s, your experience may vary.

Your real question seems to be more about taking lead shots rather than any actual persuit.

You should always think one move ahead, and you shouldn't maintain any situation where you cannot see the target, i.e. you see the target as you close in, you pull lead to get enough deflection for the shot, before you shoot you should already know what you are going to do next, and whatever comes next needs to regain sight of the target as well as maintain a positional advantage in order to set up another shot.

When making high deflection shots from bad position (high angle from front and below for example) I will follow the shot by rolling and bringing nose down to increase energy, if I am taking a blind deflection shot from good position I will bring my nose up to keep from overshooting and roll to reaquire target.

Note that just because I am tight on a guy's 6 does not mean I am in good position, in particular I bleed more energy anyway (flying FW remember) and pulling lead even for a moment will bleed even more, so if I get on a bogey's 6 without any big E advantage then I will take the closest range shot I think I can get and then dive and extend (this is often a good idea even from advantage if other enemies are about).

What your next move is should not be predicated on what effect your shot had, your next move should be planned before you take the shot, so seeing the effect of your shot is not important (though seeing the enemy is).

Also note that any blind deflection shot from an advantageous position will greatly reduce your advantage (losing sight for a moment is bad, as is bleeding E at a higher rate than your target), so you need to be very close before taking such a shot.

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 08:56 PM
1. Match his wings (your wings are at the same angle to the ground as his) but keep your persuit at lag pursuit...he should be well above your windscreen as this allows you to keep more energy than him.
2. Place gunsight on his engine when you're, say, 100 meters away.
3. Pull the trigger and gently pull back on the stick. A 4 or 5 second burst, although wasteful, is most likely to get a few hits at least.
4. Let go of the stick after firing so you get back into lag pursuit.

I've never killed a plane outright by using this method...i've sometimes knocked off the wings. Usually what happens is the enemy plane starts smoking. Oftentimes i get a pilot kill this way. Because most of the shells miss i think this is a rather wasteful way to shoot down enemy aircrafts...but it is a reliable way to get hits without knowing much about deflection shooting.

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 09:08 PM
Is this a good rule of thumb - to always try to "match his wings" before taking a shot?

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XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 09:45 PM
Ya mon, otherwise your shot window is tiny


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The world will change when you are ready to pronounce this oath:
I swear by my Life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man,
nor ask another man to live for the sake of mine.

Miss A. R.