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dinosaurlicker
02-08-2019, 03:06 PM
I think most people can agree that this game is pretty bad and has had one of the most unbalanced rosters of any game. Yea, the cosmetics are cool and are probably what keeps most people playing. But let’s face it.

This game is a failure.

It had great potential, in fact, it looked like it could be one of the best games ever with the brand new fighting mechanics. However, it has ALWAYS been severely unbalanced. It all comes down to the core combat.

The turtle meta came about as the first predominate meta. Attacking was worthless because blocking was easy and had no downside. You could (and still can) block normal attacks forever if you wanted.

The other reason why attacking was worthless was because of how much damage you could get after parrying an attack. Gb was guaranteed and for most characters this resulted in 30-45 damage, which is a lot given how easy it is to parry.

People would just have staring contests because there was no reason to attack. All damage came from unblockable attacks, unreactable attacks, and bashes (top tiers being warlord, pk, conq, shugo(pre nerf) and warden). The dev team needed to make changes to destroy turtling. And so, they did.

However, they chose the wrong path. They decided to implement more bashes, unblockables, and unreactable attacks into the game. These attacks worked, so it makes sense to fix the turtle meta by giving every character something like this, right?

No.

The core combat mechanics were missing something, that was the problem. This game has always needed a downside to endlessly blocking. Chip damage was always suggested by top players but never truly implemented (18% was added, if I remember correctly, but this is nothing). If chip was the sole implementation, then it should have been at 36% or more. But I don’t think that chip would have been a definitive answer either.

What I believe should have been implemented is a shield break mechanic. Almost every other fighter or pseudo fighter has this. Shield health. If you block too much, your shield breaks and you get punished heavily. Blocking in For Honor could have been similar.

For example, a good place to start would have been like 60 damage blocked within 10-20 seconds gives a heavy attack punish. Yes, attacks are still easy to parry but that could be changed by adding more feint games like kensei’s. This would have been healthier to the game than all these cancerous bashes. Giving heroes a move to counter turtling just results in overuse of this move. Conq is a great example, they use bash 20 times a fight cuz it’s all they have.

What really needed to be changed was the fact that standard neutral attacks were worthless. The devs needed to add an upside to attacking normally and hitting someone’s guard from neutral.

It’s too late now with all the bashes and whatnot, but if another company ever makes a game like For Honor or if ubi makes For Honor 2 they need to add in high chip or a shieldbreak mechanic or a combination of both.

Corentin10111
02-08-2019, 04:03 PM
100% true.. And as you said "it's too late now", the devs are too afraid to take a decision to improve the situation, they failed so many times that now they just keep flying forward despite the big walls ahead.

Knight_Raime
02-08-2019, 05:15 PM
You're slightly incorrect. Yes the devs have needed to/still need to address how strong defense is. But that alone even if they perfectly nailed it wouldn't have been enough. Unblockable based mix ups/offense and in general attacks becoming faster are 100% needed. Because if everything is still easily reactable then those who are capable of parrying consistently would still be able to turtle up effectively.

The devs are working on something call the "reaction reduction" pass. Which should include varied ms increments for attacks, better feint mechanics/adjustments, and potentially a fix to buffered attacks being slower than their intended speed. If we get varied ms increments it means people will be forced to learn a hero's attack speeds rather than 4-5 attack speeds for the whole roster. Better feints should mean feints allow for more opportunities rather than going straight to neutral again. Or at the least it should make them better at their job. As currently it's pretty easy to react to someone feinting. And fixing the buffered issue means offense that is currently not great at 500ms (but would be broken at 400ms) would become much more effective. The idea of the reaction reduction pass really is to improve offense without making everything delayed 400ms fast whilst also making feints be more usable.

As far as fixing defense goes one change I'd really like to see is everyone's opener lights getting the "enhanced" property. Meaning if they block your opening light you can still get into your mid combo pressure/mix ups. This would massively shorten the amount of time people spend in neutral. And it would force those who passively defend themselves to take a more active role in engaging their opponent. This idea could be further built upon by having slower heavies guarantee a follow up hit if they are blocked (i.e pseudo unblockable.) This would mean even slower attacks could become threatening instead of just being parry bait.

Another mechanic that i've thought about would be to add ramping stamina costs to blocking. But only when you hit a certain percentage of your health. The more you block at x amount of health the more stamina it costs to block. Or maybe just introduce blocking costing stamina if you are at x health. But you could negate this by "perfect" blocking. Which would be matching your guard in the direction of the attack at a specific timing. This wouldn't stop the person from being able to continue their combo meaning they could still apply pressure. But again it's forcing a more active role on the defender. I also believe everyone should be given a reflex guard that decays somewhere between normal assassin and Shinobi levels. Again for a more active role in defense.

Finally I think feints should have some additional mechanics to them. Something as simple as berzerker's faster follow up attack after a feint could work. Or maybe allowing people to feint certain moves in their kit that allow them to skip to the next attack in chain. Thus making the smaller/more limited combo's feel a bit more fleshed out. This still doesn't address guard break/CGB which should be changed at some point as well. But i'm not sure what i'd go with here.

And this also doesn't touch on some things that need to be looked into for offense. Like giving every hero some way to handle spacing. Giving every hero the ability to counter attack from a dodge. polishing out mechanics like superior block and deflect. etc. I don't think this game can make any more growing pains. I think for the franchise to truly take off and be much better we'd have to consider making a sequel. Much of the games problems (that either crop up as new or are old issues rearing up again) stem from their Janky coding. Which while fixable would just be more cost/time effective to make a new game.

Salturion.
02-08-2019, 05:47 PM
Giving every hero a reflex guard? Sry but are u drunk? Giving sb like warlord(with a quite big shiedl) a reflex guard is the biggest ******** I've ever heard and if Ubi adds more feints and different timings they will start blocking again. The problem of Fh is the base system. In every other fighting game there is like a counter triangle just not in For honor (sth like gb beats throw, throw beats attack and attack beats gb). But that isnt quite realistic so not kinda good for a kinda realistic game like fh but this is the system that works the best in other games (my opinion).

Knight_Raime
02-08-2019, 05:58 PM
Giving every hero a reflex guard? Sry but are u drunk? Giving sb like warlord(with a quite big shiedl) a reflex guard is the biggest ******** I've ever heard and if Ubi adds more feints and different timings they will start blocking again. The problem of Fh is the base system. In every other fighting game there is like a counter triangle just not in For honor (sth like gb beats throw, throw beats attack and attack beats gb). But that isnt quite realistic so not kinda good for a kinda realistic game like fh but this is the system that works the best in other games (my opinion).

Warlord's shield is already being a shield via full guard. Shields also do not protect you from every angle even if being held properly. So trying to use "realism" as a defense doesn't work. For honor isn't a realistic sim or anything close to it either. Fixing guard break to behave like other fighters wouldn't magically solve everything either. Plenty of things need to be done.

MrB3NX
02-08-2019, 06:44 PM
you are right

the solution to this devastating problem is to add a durability feature to weapons and shields

in most mmos , if you overuse your tools they will be broken and so in the real world

if someone blocks people for dear life he should get his weapon / shield broken , and then he deserves what happen to him .

bramboforce
02-08-2019, 07:09 PM
What keeps me playing are for sure not the over-priced cosmetics, It's the gameplay. Unlike most other games skill is still actually required even tho with some heroes its not much of it needed.
Still its better than getting sniped from half across the map by someone who doesnt have any life. But of course situations like that happen in For honor too but they are less often( Like meeting light spamming, insta parrying peacekeeper with rep 100 for example.)

dinosaurlicker
02-19-2019, 03:47 PM
You're slightly incorrect. Yes the devs have needed to/still need to address how strong defense is. But that alone even if they perfectly nailed it wouldn't have been enough. Unblockable based mix ups/offense and in general attacks becoming faster are 100% needed. Because if everything is still easily reactable then those who are capable of parrying consistently would still be able to turtle up effectively.

The devs are working on something call the "reaction reduction" pass. Which should include varied ms increments for attacks, better feint mechanics/adjustments, and potentially a fix to buffered attacks being slower than their intended speed. If we get varied ms increments it means people will be forced to learn a hero's attack speeds rather than 4-5 attack speeds for the whole roster. Better feints should mean feints allow for more opportunities rather than going straight to neutral again. Or at the least it should make them better at their job. As currently it's pretty easy to react to someone feinting. And fixing the buffered issue means offense that is currently not great at 500ms (but would be broken at 400ms) would become much more effective. The idea of the reaction reduction pass really is to improve offense without making everything delayed 400ms fast whilst also making feints be more usable.

As far as fixing defense goes one change I'd really like to see is everyone's opener lights getting the "enhanced" property. Meaning if they block your opening light you can still get into your mid combo pressure/mix ups. This would massively shorten the amount of time people spend in neutral. And it would force those who passively defend themselves to take a more active role in engaging their opponent. This idea could be further built upon by having slower heavies guarantee a follow up hit if they are blocked (i.e pseudo unblockable.) This would mean even slower attacks could become threatening instead of just being parry bait.

Another mechanic that i've thought about would be to add ramping stamina costs to blocking. But only when you hit a certain percentage of your health. The more you block at x amount of health the more stamina it costs to block. Or maybe just introduce blocking costing stamina if you are at x health. But you could negate this by "perfect" blocking. Which would be matching your guard in the direction of the attack at a specific timing. This wouldn't stop the person from being able to continue their combo meaning they could still apply pressure. But again it's forcing a more active role on the defender. I also believe everyone should be given a reflex guard that decays somewhere between normal assassin and Shinobi levels. Again for a more active role in defense.

Finally I think feints should have some additional mechanics to them. Something as simple as berzerker's faster follow up attack after a feint could work. Or maybe allowing people to feint certain moves in their kit that allow them to skip to the next attack in chain. Thus making the smaller/more limited combo's feel a bit more fleshed out. This still doesn't address guard break/CGB which should be changed at some point as well. But i'm not sure what i'd go with here.

And this also doesn't touch on some things that need to be looked into for offense. Like giving every hero some way to handle spacing. Giving every hero the ability to counter attack from a dodge. polishing out mechanics like superior block and deflect. etc. I don't think this game can make any more growing pains. I think for the franchise to truly take off and be much better we'd have to consider making a sequel. Much of the games problems (that either crop up as new or are old issues rearing up again) stem from their Janky coding. Which while fixable would just be more cost/time effective to make a new game.

True, but I think very few people would buy the sequel. Even me, a player since beta, wouldn’t buy the sequel after that chinese crap came out.

Hormly
02-19-2019, 05:13 PM
This game certainly does have the worst balance I've ever seen in a fighter, truly bewildering.

I would buy a sequel however, assuming it went to a dev team who had experience with fighting games

Kadete93
02-19-2019, 06:17 PM
Another mechanic that i've thought about would be to add ramping stamina costs to blocking. But only when you hit a certain percentage of your health. The more you block at x amount of health the more stamina it costs to block. Or maybe just introduce blocking costing stamina if you are at x health. But you could negate this by "perfect" blocking. Which would be matching your guard in the direction of the attack at a specific timing. This wouldn't stop the person from being able to continue their combo meaning they could still apply pressure. But again it's forcing a more active role on the defender. I also believe everyone should be given a reflex guard that decays somewhere between normal assassin and Shinobi levels. Again for a more active role in defense..

Dark Souls has something like this and i think it works. I know that blocking its harder on For Honor but, for me, it has sense to lose stamina while you are blocking incoming atacks..


Anyway i keep thinking that te game is fun. The biggest issue that i dont like at all is the matchmaking and the disconnections. That sucks

pretoastedwaffl
02-19-2019, 06:41 PM
There is an old star wars lightsaber dueling game that is similar to for honor in terms of the combat but is a lot more fun to play and hopefully in the future a company ( not ea) will remake the game and not have the issues for honor had.

RenegadeRasta
02-19-2019, 07:51 PM
There is an old star wars lightsaber dueling game

Teras Kasi?

Inzzane_79
02-20-2019, 09:37 AM
The extreme gap between high tier chars and low tier chars is what kills this game for me personally. On one side you have chars like JJ, Shaolin, Conq, Berserker and on the other side are sitting Peacekeeper, Lawbringer, Shugoki (even after his rework) and a Shinobi.

The too much blocking and your block breaks would not work in FH, in 1v1 yes but think about 4v4. If 3 Players attack you at the same time and you block those attacks your block would break immediately and you are dead. Same with chip damage, those 3 would chip you to death in 10sec.

And thatīs another part where FH has big Problems, you canīt balance the game for 1v1 and 4v4 at the same time. Too many possible scenarios that would have to be looked at and balanced accordingly. Thatīs just not gonna happen. You lower the damage of a char so he is not op in 4v4 but that results in him being unviable in 1v1 cause he lacks damage for example.

I love FH and I enjoy playing it but I gave up on seing FH as a competitive game or even a game I take serious cause it shows me every day that this game is more a fun and joke game

Mia.Nora
02-20-2019, 11:06 AM
Completely agreed, also blocking should not stop combos.

As a game mechanic blocking one attack never stops the rest of combo.
As a realistic approach, a block would never stop the momentum of an attacker.

As for 4v4 balance, game already has the ability to differentiate an external attack from the ones coming from the locked on target. All that needs to be done is making chip damage and shield break from external attacks being minimal compared to the one from locked on target. BOOM! all balance issue is fixed between 1v1 and 4v4.

Devils-_-legacy
02-20-2019, 11:48 AM
Completely agreed, also blocking should not stop combos.

As a game mechanic blocking one attack never stops the rest of combo.
As a realistic approach, a block would never stop the momentum of an attacker.

As for 4v4 balance, game already has the ability to differentiate an external attack from the ones coming from the locked on target. All that needs to be done is making chip damage and shield break from external attacks being minimal compared to the one from locked on target. BOOM! all balance issue is fixed between 1v1 and 4v4.

blocking only stops lights

TimeToCrusade
02-20-2019, 03:46 PM
The problem liesin the lack of complexity in the combat system. Mechanically there is nothing, you press a button, you get 50dmg punish and thats it, or you press a button and you bash. The only factor is reflexes...which can't be improved. Being smart is pointless, Anticipating is not reliable and you can't get better mechanically because..there is no mechanics. Either make more complex movesets and improve the whole 3 guards system or get closer to a combat system to either chivalry or the souls games (without the obvious downsides to it obviously) But this should have been down in development now it's too late to rework the whole system.

You will never fix this game by tweaking balanced and small things here and there, thr problem is in the core mechanics, either a hero is broken, either he is useless.

Solution: make this game into a ledging simulator ! (:

Real_Doll
02-20-2019, 04:44 PM
can agree 100% I stopped playing a week or two after Marching Fire was released, came back a few days ago to give it another shot but yeah.. wayyy too late for this game now. The devs have ****ed it up so badly.

Even though I would like to.. I don't see any hope left for this game.

Comisari0
02-21-2019, 06:01 AM
True, but I think very few people would buy the sequel. Even me, a player since beta, wouldn’t buy the sequel after that chinese crap came out.

People bought The Division 2, after the BIG PIECE OF CRAP that was the 1. So...

Inzzane_79
02-21-2019, 08:53 AM
People bought The Division 2, after the BIG PIECE OF CRAP that was the 1. So...

Division 1 was only crap when it was released. That game got patched for the better and is now a pretty awesome game

Real_Doll
02-21-2019, 04:42 PM
Division 1 was only crap when it was released. That game got patched for the better and is now a pretty awesome game

so true!

NeptuneOneeChan
02-21-2019, 11:08 PM
so far i have seen and this is the reason i left the game in first place got back and its still **** that new players like me are just easy grinding for those veterands out there and dont say there no smurf accounts becouse there are i like how the game looks but i not gona play it at all i will oneday buy the expansion for the PVE mod but that it im done with the PVP ******** new players cant learn the game becouse of this **** ballanc

Inzzane_79
02-22-2019, 10:26 AM
so far i have seen and this is the reason i left the game in first place got back and its still **** that new players like me are just easy grinding for those veterands out there and dont say there no smurf accounts becouse there are i like how the game looks but i not gona play it at all i will oneday buy the expansion for the PVE mod but that it im done with the PVP ******** new players cant learn the game becouse of this **** ballanc

New Players canīt learn the game? How so? If you go into pvp without practice and knowledge by going into training mode or play the AI I donīt know what to say. Of course you will get beaten hard by veterans, like in every other game that has pvp and you jump in blind.

Go and practice your character, practice matchups, practice parry and THEN jump into pvp

NeptuneOneeChan
02-22-2019, 12:15 PM
you cant pracitce i fighted alot against ai but players spam the **** out of every attack that i dont even know how to counter so its imposable i learned the tutorials i dit hte cmapain but nofing is like the pvp so i dont see this game stay alive for very long if new players get ganked like that

Real_Doll
02-22-2019, 12:24 PM
New Players canīt learn the game? How so? If you go into pvp without practice and knowledge by going into training mode or play the AI I donīt know what to say. Of course you will get beaten hard by veterans, like in every other game that has pvp and you jump in blind.

Go and practice your character, practice matchups, practice parry and THEN jump into pvp

He's right, learning the game as a new player is tedious because the MM is horrible. Eventually they will get some where playing against players of different skill levels but not many people want to endure getting steamrolled round after round (and a lot of other issues in the game). This is where skill brackets based on stats/gear level would help.

They can practice against bots but level 1 and 2 bots are just a cake walk.. lvl 3 is just ******ed on another level, still you could get used to it, but once you do that's all that is.