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Vtach93
02-07-2019, 12:00 AM
Been playing since beta.... These 400ms light attacks and shield bashes make the game no fun and takes away from any mind games you can use when all you have to do is throw an unreactable attack... takes the fun out of the game and makes me not want to play

Knight_Raime
02-07-2019, 03:12 AM
You need unreactable attacks in order to have mind games. If everything is reactable then there is no figuring out what your opponent will do because you can just wait and react to it.

matt89connor
02-07-2019, 09:16 AM
they create this attacks becasue they don't want nerf the parry punish for good, since season 2 there was a problem of turtle parry meta, so they just remove GB garantee on parry but still, means that you can turtle and punish offensive gameplay, that's why, they create some unreactbale attacks and the wu lin heroes as free spam heroes....these are all the conseguences of their choices in the past seasons

Corentin10111
02-07-2019, 09:52 AM
The idea of spamming unreactable attacks was such a good idea... Seriously, fixing a broken meta with another broken meta. WTF?! They turned it into a guessing game with no skill involved.
First of all, they should have done a different balancing between console and pc. Second, anything they do without balancing the game differently is a bad idea..

rottmeister
02-07-2019, 10:31 AM
I can see how unreactable attacks are necessary but they shouldn't be as spammable as they are now. It takes skill/luck to be able to counter them: you either read them or straight up guess (or have an inhumane reaction time or have an insanely expensive set up), meanwhile it takes 0 skill to spam r1 + a direction. That's what pisses me off. They're extremely safe unless you're dumb enough to repeat a pattern multiple times. There's barely any mindgames involved, unless you count pissing off your opponent. I'm not able to play as much FH as I used to and I've been getting fairly annoyed at the lightspamming Orochi's in 4vs4 lately. It's not an insta loss mind you, but it is annoying to deal with at the very least. Before I was able to deal with it better because I played the game on a daily basis, now I just don't have the time.

SangLong524
02-07-2019, 01:08 PM
unreactable attacks are necessary. Otherwise, we will be back to this "turtle meta" everyone and his "since alpha" persona had been weeping about since... forever. it takes skill to properly predict an possible unreactable and counter it in such a small window.
And please, quit the skill talk, which i don't say sarcastically but sincerely. The turtles, despite so much flame coming their way, are skilled. Are you sure you can afford the frustration facing these skilled turtles?
As for spamming, the term itself indicates a repetition. I don;t know about everyone but we humans do learn. Guess game is not a guess game at all when an action is repeated again and again by sheer habit. it should be countered easily.
However, the current BP's light-bash-light in OOS is totally not ok for such a severe punish with so cheap a trade off, almost none at all. I hope it is being addressed.
signed,
Season 1 Veteran
Not--since-alpha/beta

rottmeister
02-07-2019, 02:01 PM
unreactable attacks are necessary. Otherwise, we will be back to this "turtle meta" everyone and his "since alpha" persona had been weeping about since... forever. it takes skill to properly predict an possible unreactable and counter it in such a small window.
And please, quit the skill talk, which i don't say sarcastically but sincerely. The turtles, despite so much flame coming their way, are skilled. Are you sure you can afford the frustration facing these skilled turtles?
As for spamming, the term itself indicates a repetition. I don;t know about everyone but we humans do learn. Guess game is not a guess game at all when an action is repeated again and again by sheer habit. it should be countered easily.
However, the current BP's light-bash-light in OOS is totally not ok for such a severe punish with so cheap a trade off, almost none at all. I hope it is being addressed.
signed,
Season 1 Veteran
Not--since-alpha/beta

1. I'm fairly certain BP's OOS pressure is being looked at. Even heard some say they were going to remove the confirmed bash after superior light. :)

2. Yes guessing game is not a thing if an action is repeated again and again, but the thing is: there are 3 sides to attack/defend, not just 1. If an Orochi spams lights in 1 direction of course you'll parry every single light after getting hit twice or if he has a pattern, you'll anticipate the next light in the direction he did before. Spam might not be the correct term I used if I look at the definition you gave. But you're getting bombarded with unreactable attacks from different sides and the word 'spam' already is massively used in this community when talking about Orochi's lights. Definitions of words tend to change, because something isn't considered spam now, it might be in the future.

3 I agree that unreactable moves are needed but the way the devs incorporated them in the game is bad imo (except for pommel strike and a few others). If hitting r1 + changing direction wasn't effective, Orochi's and Nuxia's would definitely be less played for 1 and 2 they wouldn't constantly do it in every given situation. They might not do this in Grandmaster level play (even though I saw a vid a while ago of the #1 Nuxia player pretty much only use her lights in duel) but I definitely have seen it in ranked (I ranked Diamond V) and it's so common in dominion/breach.

I'm all for staying away from the turtle meta, but I'm not for increasing the speed on everything. I think Kensei, Shaman and maybe Shaolin are the 'perfect' heroes. None of them are dependant on just 1 move/thing. Neither Kensei or Shaman have 400 ms light attacks yet they're performing well. I don't mind if certain moves are 400ms like an occasional light or softfeint, but come on not every single light in a chain.

This is why I like playing Shaman so much, I can use her entire moveset when I play, not just the r1 button.

Tundra 793
02-07-2019, 02:51 PM
You need unreactable attacks in order to have mind games. If everything is reactable then there is no figuring out what your opponent will do because you can just wait and react to it.

This, doesn't sound right.

Isn't a mind game something to do with anticipation and deception? I.e. feints. A mind game to me, is a deeper level of gameplay, something that takes more skill to get good at, as you need to learn a specific character rather well, so you can deploy the tools at your disposal to counter other heroes.

A 400ms light attack, is not that. I'm not being tricked, or fooled, at all times I'm fully aware of what's happening. I simply just cannot react to 400ms attacks. My body's reflexes have a hard limit i cannot surpass without the use of drugs, or dangerous levels of Red Bull.

Some of you are saying that unreactable attacks are nessecary, I'm not sure, maybe they are, but they absolutely have gone too far with them overall.
There's been so many interesting and potentially game saving suggestions made over the years, and it kills me still that the devs refuse to give us test servers so we can end these endless academic discussions, and actually try to improve the game little by little.

rottmeister
02-07-2019, 04:21 PM
This, doesn't sound right.

Isn't a mind game something to do with anticipation and deception? I.e. feints. A mind game to me, is a deeper level of gameplay, something that takes more skill to get good at, as you need to learn a specific character rather well, so you can deploy the tools at your disposal to counter other heroes.

A 400ms light attack, is not that. I'm not being tricked, or fooled, at all times I'm fully aware of what's happening. I simply just cannot react to 400ms attacks. My body's reflexes have a hard limit i cannot surpass without the use of drugs, or dangerous levels of Red Bull.

Some of you are saying that unreactable attacks are nessecary, I'm not sure, maybe they are, but they absolutely have gone too far with them overall.
There's been so many interesting and potentially game saving suggestions made over the years, and it kills me still that the devs refuse to give us test servers so we can end these endless academic discussions, and actually try to improve the game little by little.

I agree. Certainly with your second paragraph. I shouldn't have to take substances or train my reflexes to react to a character's chain (for example Nuxia's light chain). I'm still quite young (yet old enough to vote) and have been playing video games since I was little. Eventually my reflexes got better and better, but I still struggle with 400 ms lights (and Aramusha's robotic animations haha, but that's just a personal vendetta I have against him). This might be due to my set up being whack (PS4, TV, no gaming mode, controller plugged in most of the time) or my reaction time just not being good enough. It feels weird to me that my reflexes fail me when I face an Orochi/Nux. Certainly because I'm the type of person that matrix dodges everything irl, used to love dodgeball.

Sidenote: I'm never ever ******* drinking energy drinks after 11pm anymore, certainly not 4. Tried to study through the night and paid the price. Slept for 2 hours and had to puke right after I woke up. Lesson learned I guess, lol.

Siegfried-Z
02-07-2019, 05:11 PM
I have To agree with Rott and Tundra on that.
I've been saying this for a while already but unreactable attacks are not good for the game.
Seriously what is the point of smashing light button with Roch, Nuxia, etc ? This is just a no Skill gameplay.

It doesn't involve any mind game or any mixup.

I am ok with things like Zerk 400ms light feint for example because, of course zerk if one of the strongest char but at least he is a mix up char, he is not all about spamming a triple lights chain.

Same with Shaman, lots of people complain about her. Yes she is strong but she has to mix up.

Problem is the team balance the game for PC.
I have both PC and console.
One of the PC huge problem is people playing with different fps.
Some play with 50-60fps, some just as the YouTuber FluxDeluxe plays with 160fps. .. 160fps guys. . He said it To me himself.
On my PC i have play with diff fps level and let me tells you each step makes a big gap! I have try at 60, 75, 90, 120 and 145 fps.
From 120fps i was able to parry very often 400ms lights. At 75fps never . 90fps sometimes but not that often.
145 ? Man any lights were parry candy for me.. even Shaolin ones, Aramusha 400ms softfeint doesn't matter. I was able to parry EVERYTHING in the game.

So, of course if they do their balance arround people playing with 90fps or more.. how could we handle it on console.

rottmeister
02-07-2019, 05:46 PM
I have To agree with Rott and Tundra on that.
I've been saying this for a while already but unreactable attacks are not good for the game.
Seriously what is the point of smashing light button with Roch, Nuxia, etc ? This is just a no Skill gameplay.

It doesn't involve any mind game or any mixup.

I am ok with things like Zerk 400ms light feint for example because, of course zerk if one of the strongest char but at least he is a mix up char, he is not all about spamming a triple lights chain.

Same with Shaman, lots of people complain about her. Yes she is strong but she has to mix up.

Well in an earlier post I said that I could see how unreactable attacks are needed, but not in the sense of Orochi's/Nuxia's lights.
I'm a bit on the fence on whether I think unreactable attacks are needed or not.
I can definitely see both sides of the coin.
So I'm not 100% sure who to agree with, but Tundra has said a lot of things I can relate to.

Vakris_One
02-07-2019, 10:32 PM
More FPS doesn't give you extra animations to see. It merely makes the images on-screen look smoother. That may change your perception of the images you're seeing but it doesn't magically let you obtain super human reaction times. 400ms is unreactable to most human beings. It doesn't matter what platform you play on, 400ms is unreactable on both PC and Console.

I don't see why some people think that having everything be 100% reactable is somehow a more "skilled" system. Reaction times are not a skill you can train yourself to improve on. You either can react to something or you cannot. You can't change your reaction speeds. Ergo, how can you be considered to be more skilled than someone else just because of the way your brain is naturally wired? So you see a reaction based system isn't this holy land of balance and skill. It's actually a very shallow system and rooted in a fair bit of biological elitism at that.

On the other hand we have unreactable moves that force the player to make an educated guess based on understanding their opponent and working out their patterns. This is a core feature of every good 2D fighting game that I know of. Reading your opponent is a skill. And this skill can be trained up and improved unlike the binary yes/no nature of reaction times. Deception, mind games and outthinking your opponent are absolutely something you can get better at.

Having moves that force the opponent to make educated guesses is not only a feature of other fighting games it was also the natural evolution path of the Art of Battle fight system. Without unreactable attacks everything is reactable and the skill ceiling is incredibly shallow because as soon as you can react to everything you've mastered the game. And those of us who saw the turtle meta at its height know how boring and mind numbingly passive this made the game be.

As for the argument that there's characters who can "spam" 400ms chain attacks like crazy. Only one character in the game has two 400ms omni-directional chained lights and that character is Nuxia. Only Orochi's second chained light is an omni-directional 400ms attack. His third light is only 400ms if it come from the top. His side light finishers are 500ms. I persinally don't agree with Nuxia's design of having two omni-directional 400ms lights as that really does just promote a bit of button mashing.

TLDR: Does the game need unreactable moves? Yes. Has the game done a good job of utilising unreactable attacks in an interesting way? Not in my opinion. There are better ways of doing unreactable moves in chains or as soft feintable openers such as pommel strike and etc that I feel the devs could work on. Omni-directional 400ms lights in chain are the least imaginative implementation that can be done.

Knight_Raime
02-07-2019, 11:05 PM
This, doesn't sound right.

Isn't a mind game something to do with anticipation and deception? I.e. feints. A mind game to me, is a deeper level of gameplay, something that takes more skill to get good at, as you need to learn a specific character rather well, so you can deploy the tools at your disposal to counter other heroes.

A 400ms light attack, is not that. I'm not being tricked, or fooled, at all times I'm fully aware of what's happening. I simply just cannot react to 400ms attacks. My body's reflexes have a hard limit i cannot surpass without the use of drugs, or dangerous levels of Red Bull.

Some of you are saying that unreactable attacks are nessecary, I'm not sure, maybe they are, but they absolutely have gone too far with them overall.
There's been so many interesting and potentially game saving suggestions made over the years, and it kills me still that the devs refuse to give us test servers so we can end these endless academic discussions, and actually try to improve the game little by little.

You're thinking of a combination of mix ups and mind games. Mix ups by themselves are not effective mix ups if they can be reacted to. You're specifying 400ms lights when I was speaking on unreactable attacks in general. 400ms lights by design are meant to be chip damage. They exist purely to be something you cannot defend against in a reactionary sense. You're supposed to defend against them in 1 of 2 ways. Either prevent them from ever getting to said chip attack, or read your opponents behavior so you can premptively switch to the correct direction to block it.

The problem is we can't rely on feints alone to "mind game" someone because they're pretty apparent. It's totally possible to react to a feint. This is why you'll commonly see a situation where someone tries to bait a parry, said person falls for it but reacts in time and feints. Then the person who baited throws to parry but also feints on reaction to said feint. Speed is important. Which is why attacks in a general sense have become faster. And they will continue to with the reaction reduction batch of changes. (IIRC they're also making feints better in that pass as well.) The highlight of said changes being varied ms increments. Which will put some attacks between 400ms and 500ms. It might also address the buffered attack problem.

I'm not going to say they've always done a good job with 400ms lights. Orochi/Nuxia are a bad way to implement them.


More FPS doesn't give you extra animations to see. It merely makes the images on-screen look smoother. That may change your perception of the images you're seeing but it doesn't magically let you obtain super human reaction times. 400ms is unreactable to most human beings. It doesn't matter what platform you play on, 400ms is unreactable on both PC and Console.

I don't see why some people think that having everything be 100% reactable is somehow a more "skilled" system. Reaction times are not a skill you can train yourself to improve on. You either can react to something or you cannot. You can't change your reaction speeds. Ergo, how can you be considered to be more skilled than someone else just because of the way your brain is naturally wired? So you see a reaction based system isn't this holy land of balance and skill. It's actually a very shallow system and rooted in a fair bit of biological elitism at that.

On the other hand we have unreactable moves that force the player to make an educated guess based on understanding their opponent and working out their patterns. This is a core feature of every good 2D fighting game that I know of. Reading your opponent is a skill. And this skill can be trained up and improved unlike the binary yes/no nature of reaction times. Deception, mind games and outthinking your opponent are absolutely something you can get better at.

Having moves that force the opponent to make educated guesses is not only a feature of other fighting games it was also the natural evolution path of the Art of Battle fight system. Without unreactable attacks everything is reactable and the skill ceiling is incredibly shallow because as soon as you can react to everything you've mastered the game. And those of us who saw the turtle meta at its height know how boring and mind numbingly passive this made the game be.

As for the argument that there's characters who can "spam" 400ms chain attacks like crazy. Only one character in the game has two 400ms omni-directional chained lights and that character is Nuxia. Only Orochi's second chained light is an omni-directional 400ms attack. His third light is only 400ms if it come from the top. His side light finishers are 500ms. I persinally don't agree with Nuxia's design of having two omni-directional 400ms lights as that really does just promote a bit of button mashing.

TLDR: Does the game need unreactable moves? Yes. Has the game done a good job of utilising unreactable attacks in an interesting way? Not in my opinion. There are better ways of doing unreactable moves in chains or as soft feintable openers such as pommel strike and etc that I feel the devs could work on. Omni-directional 400ms lights in chain are the least imaginative implementation that can be done.

It's important to note there is a difference between "single action" reaction and "choice" reaction. The former being what most people think reactions in general are. i.e how fast can you do one thing. This is the reaction that allows people to deal with tight timings in situations like dodging and punishing Tiandi's palm follow up. the common reaction timing for that is some where between 233ms-300ms. Choice reaction time is how fast you can decide and react to a situation that has multiple options. This is what most people's reaction time suffers at. common around here is 433ms-500ms. This reaction time can be improved to be damned near close to single action reaction.

You improve this with building your knowledge of both match ups and typical player behavior. Which will afford you the ability to make a choice sooner and react to someone's mix up quicker. But yeah nothing wrong with your post. Just wanted to add this.

Siegfried-Z
02-08-2019, 12:04 AM
More FPS doesn't give you extra animations to see. It merely makes the images on-screen look smoother. That may change your perception of the images you're seeing but it doesn't magically let you obtain super human reaction times. 400ms is unreactable to most human beings. It doesn't matter what platform you play on, 400ms is unreactable on both PC and Console.

I don't see why some people think that having everything be 100% reactable is somehow a more "skilled" system. Reaction times are not a skill you can train yourself to improve on. You either can react to something or you cannot. You can't change your reaction speeds. Ergo, how can you be considered to be more skilled than someone else just because of the way your brain is naturally wired? So you see a reaction based system isn't this holy land of balance and skill. It's actually a very shallow system and rooted in a fair bit of biological elitism at that.

On the other hand we have unreactable moves that force the player to make an educated guess based on understanding their opponent and working out their patterns. This is a core feature of every good 2D fighting game that I know of. Reading your opponent is a skill. And this skill can be trained up and improved unlike the binary yes/no nature of reaction times. Deception, mind games and outthinking your opponent are absolutely something you can get better at.

Having moves that force the opponent to make educated guesses is not only a feature of other fighting games it was also the natural evolution path of the Art of Battle fight system. Without unreactable attacks everything is reactable and the skill ceiling is incredibly shallow because as soon as you can react to everything you've mastered the game. And those of us who saw the turtle meta at its height know how boring and mind numbingly passive this made the game be.

As for the argument that there's characters who can "spam" 400ms chain attacks like crazy. Only one character in the game has two 400ms omni-directional chained lights and that character is Nuxia. Only Orochi's second chained light is an omni-directional 400ms attack. His third light is only 400ms if it come from the top. His side light finishers are 500ms. I persinally don't agree with Nuxia's design of having two omni-directional 400ms lights as that really does just promote a bit of button mashing.

TLDR: Does the game need unreactable moves? Yes. Has the game done a good job of utilising unreactable attacks in an interesting way? Not in my opinion. There are better ways of doing unreactable moves in chains or as soft feintable openers such as pommel strike and etc that I feel the devs could work on. Omni-directional 400ms lights in chain are the least imaginative implementation that can be done.

Did you try the game on console ? As did you try on PC with more than 60fps ?

If i remember Well, when you said to me welcome on PC you said you play with arround 60fps.

My reflex are of course the same doesn't matter the plateforms i am playing on.

But when some people say there are no difference between console and PC just because of a smoother animation etc. I am sorry but this is wrong.

I am myself the proof of that. I have experienced both and have tried the game at mutiples fps level on PC.
The gap is Huge. It creates only a slight difference. . But this small additional reaction window makes a huge difference.

I would be honest. On console i have never parry a 400ms Roch lights or Nuxia one and i have To focus hard To parry most 500ms attack. I cant do it so often.

On PC, 60fps doesn't makes a big difference.
It start at 75fps. Then is again slighly better at 90.

But from 110-120.. nothing is unreactable.
I am not lying. . When i push my pc to the limit and have 145fps there is nothing i cant parry or deflect in the game on a regular basis. Nothing.
I was even happy to fight Roch or Nuxia because i was parrying them at a point they didn't even dare land any attacks.

This is just a fact. Light spam isnt a specific console issue for nothing .

About the question should we have unreactable mooves.
Well To me it is surprising how we can think yes.
Unreactable, by definition is something Too difficult or in the case of FH Too fast for us Human To handle it.

I dont see any skills in gessing game.
Patterns, opponents habits etc that's true with mix up char.. zerk and Shaman are two very good example .

But patterns with 400ms light ? Is there any decent player Dumb enough to always choose the same direction in the same order ? I dont think so.
As you said human reflex is not something.you can really improve. The logical consequence is there is almost nothing you can work on to handle unreactable things.

But this is about lights spam. As you said this is the less creative way to do it and i wouldn't be against fast softfeint opener etc.

Siegfried-Z
02-08-2019, 12:08 AM
You're thinking of a combination of mix ups and mind games. Mix ups by themselves are not effective mix ups if they can be reacted to. You're specifying 400ms lights when I was speaking on unreactable attacks in general. 400ms lights by design are meant to be chip damage. They exist purely to be something you cannot defend against in a reactionary sense. You're supposed to defend against them in 1 of 2 ways. Either prevent them from ever getting to said chip attack, or read your opponents behavior so you can premptively switch to the correct direction to block it.

The problem is we can't rely on feints alone to "mind game" someone because they're pretty apparent. It's totally possible to react to a feint. This is why you'll commonly see a situation where someone tries to bait a parry, said person falls for it but reacts in time and feints. Then the person who baited throws to parry but also feints on reaction to said feint. Speed is important. Which is why attacks in a general sense have become faster. And they will continue to with the reaction reduction batch of changes. (IIRC they're also making feints better in that pass as well.) The highlight of said changes being varied ms increments. Which will put some attacks between 400ms and 500ms. It might also address the buffered attack problem.

I'm not going to say they've always done a good job with 400ms lights. Orochi/Nuxia are a bad way to implement them.

Many char got usefull mix up without unreactable things.
This is the case of Warden, Conq, Glad, Zerk, HL, Valk, Shaman, Kensei, Shinobi and even BP.

Knight_Raime
02-08-2019, 12:42 AM
Did you try the game on console ? As did you try on PC with more than 60fps ?

If i remember Well, when you said to me welcome on PC you said you play with arround 60fps.

My reflex are of course the same doesn't matter the plateforms i am playing on.

But when some people say there are no difference between console and PC just because of a smoother animation etc. I am sorry but this is wrong.

I am myself the proof of that. I have experienced both and have tried the game at mutiples fps level on PC.
The gap is Huge. It creates only a slight difference. . But this small additional reaction window makes a huge difference.

I would be honest. On console i have never parry a 400ms Roch lights or Nuxia one and i have To focus hard To parry most 500ms attack. I cant do it so often.

On PC, 60fps doesn't makes a big difference.
It start at 75fps. Then is again slighly better at 90.

But from 110-120.. nothing is unreactable.
I am not lying. . When i push my pc to the limit and have 145fps there is nothing i cant parry or deflect in the game on a regular basis. Nothing.
I was even happy to fight Roch or Nuxia because i was parrying them at a point they didn't even dare land any attacks.

This is just a fact. Light spam isnt a specific console issue for nothing .

About the question should we have unreactable mooves.
Well To me it is surprising how we can think yes.
Unreactable, by definition is something Too difficult or in the case of FH Too fast for us Human To handle it.

I dont see any skills in gessing game.
Patterns, opponents habits etc that's true with mix up char.. zerk and Shaman are two very good example .

But patterns with 400ms light ? Is there any decent player Dumb enough to always choose the same direction in the same order ? I dont think so.
As you said human reflex is not something.you can really improve. The logical consequence is there is almost nothing you can work on to handle unreactable things.

But this is about lights spam. As you said this is the less creative way to do it and i wouldn't be against fast softfeint opener etc.


Many char got usefull mix up without unreactable things.
This is the case of Warden, Conq, Glad, Zerk, HL, Valk, Shaman, Kensei, Shinobi and even BP.

Your grasp about frames is fundementally flawed. Just because you're capable of doing something with higher frames doesn't inherently mean higher frames mean you have a bigger window to react. People who regularly do frame checking for things in this game have already extensively tested the difference between console and pc with a variety of setups. The difference between 30fps and 60fps is around 17ms ish gap in time. That is so small of a difference it's basically irrelevant. You do not get a bigger window the higher you go in frames.

The reason Console has such a hard time with things is because of input delay. PC still has input delay but not nearly as much as console For honor does. Reaction time is something that is not bench marked with for honor. It is a global standard. I already touched on the two types of "reaction" times with my prior post that you should look at before continuing to read. Properly delayed 400ms lights are unreactable. Regardless of who you are or what platform/setup you have.

As far as mix ups you listed goes...Warden's bash games are not reactable. If you punish something he did it's because you knew he was going to do it. Conq's bash game is also not reactable. You're still reading between a buffered bash or a delayed one. It just has significantly less possibilities compared to warden's bash games. Gladiator does not have any decent mix ups. You can't react to any mix up Zerk does. Highlander's mix ups are match up dependent and thus I do not count them. Valk's mix ups are reactable. You can't react to shaman's flicker bash mix up it's a read. Kensei's top heavy mix up is reactable when you have stamina. You can't react to shinobi's tackle mix up. And you can't react to BP's mix ups.

Knight_Raime
02-08-2019, 12:45 AM
EDIT: double post.

Knight_Raime
02-08-2019, 01:18 AM
@Siegfried-Z

Here are two videos explaining frame rate/input delay about for honor:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDTwgtHRYDk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4IE1_tOFm4

TLDW: Having higher frames does reduce input delay/latency but on it's own by an insignificant amount. The bigger problem for consoles is input delay. Part of this comes from the platform itself just as part of it is game related. But the major part is your viewing device. With a high end monitor with uncapped frames the input latency you will be dealing with is roughly 50ms ish. Where as on an average console setup you're looking at 160ms+ of difference in input latency. And just for clarity sake input latency/delay is how long it takes something to register your input. So at a base for standard console setups you're looking at almost 2 seconds of delay. So the reason why you can "react" better on pc is because the time from when you see something and press your button to the game registering your input is a LOT shorter compared to console.

As far as reaction times goes in the second video it shows (for single reaction time) that the best possible reaction is around 233ms. So in a vacuum with no input delay and you being picture perfect you could absolutely consistently block that 400ms properly delayed light. However, You're not perfect, there is input delay, and I doubt you have a high end monitor with the proper setup. Meaning if you're consistently parrying/deflecting someone who is spamming rochi/nuxia 400ms lights you are capable of reacting to those because buffered attacks are slower than they should be. So a buffered 400ms light is basically the same speed as a delayed 500ms light.

But if you're parrying/deflecting someone who is properly delaying those 400ms lights then you simply read the situation right.

Siegfried-Z
02-08-2019, 11:34 AM
Your grasp about frames is fundementally flawed. Just because you're capable of doing something with higher frames doesn't inherently mean higher frames mean you have a bigger window to react. People who regularly do frame checking for things in this game have already extensively tested the difference between console and pc with a variety of setups. The difference between 30fps and 60fps is around 17ms ish gap in time. That is so small of a difference it's basically irrelevant. You do not get a bigger window the higher you go in frames.

The reason Console has such a hard time with things is because of input delay. PC still has input delay but not nearly as much as console For honor does. Reaction time is something that is not bench marked with for honor. It is a global standard. I already touched on the two types of "reaction" times with my prior post that you should look at before continuing to read. Properly delayed 400ms lights are unreactable. Regardless of who you are or what platform/setup you have.

As far as mix ups you listed goes...Warden's bash games are not reactable. If you punish something he did it's because you knew he was going to do it. Conq's bash game is also not reactable. You're still reading between a buffered bash or a delayed one. It just has significantly less possibilities compared to warden's bash games. Gladiator does not have any decent mix ups. You can't react to any mix up Zerk does. Highlander's mix ups are match up dependent and thus I do not count them. Valk's mix ups are reactable. You can't react to shaman's flicker bash mix up it's a read. Kensei's top heavy mix up is reactable when you have stamina. You can't react to shinobi's tackle mix up. And you can't react to BP's mix ups.

How can something factual being flawed ?
I think i have a good reaction time but i am not a parry or deflect god as is Nate Cadillac for example.
Nate said to me he is playing with arround 50fps only and soon he gonna have 90fps. He said "it's gonna be easy mode".
FluxDeluxe said to me he plays with 160fps. Flux was playing on console at the begennings and in no way was able to parry everything just as he does now with 160fps.

As i Said i am not the best, that's pretty sure. Good, probably but that's all. And give me 120-140fps and i can punish 400ms lights on a regular basis.

About the mix up i am not sure we use the word reactable in the same meaning.
To me Warden SB as all the others we talk about is reactable because whatever he does, you can deal with it if you adapt your defense in the good way. Just as Conq or BP, their SB can be dodge on reaction. I dont say this is easy, but this possible. Just as Tiandi Palm strike etc.

But 400ms light are too fast for you to adapt your next moove in any way.
You have To do a poker moove and take a decision. If you're Lucky you block or parry in the good direction.


@Siegfried-Z

Here are two videos explaining frame rate/input delay about for honor:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDTwgtHRYDk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4IE1_tOFm4

TLDW: Having higher frames does reduce input delay/latency but on it's own by an insignificant amount. The bigger problem for consoles is input delay. Part of this comes from the platform itself just as part of it is game related. But the major part is your viewing device. With a high end monitor with uncapped frames the input latency you will be dealing with is roughly 50ms ish. Where as on an average console setup you're looking at 160ms+ of difference in input latency. And just for clarity sake input latency/delay is how long it takes something to register your input. So at a base for standard console setups you're looking at almost 2 seconds of delay. So the reason why you can "react" better on pc is because the time from when you see something and press your button to the game registering your input is a LOT shorter compared to console.

As far as reaction times goes in the second video it shows (for single reaction time) that the best possible reaction is around 233ms. So in a vacuum with no input delay and you being picture perfect you could absolutely consistently block that 400ms properly delayed light. However, You're not perfect, there is input delay, and I doubt you have a high end monitor with the proper setup. Meaning if you're consistently parrying/deflecting someone who is spamming rochi/nuxia 400ms lights you are capable of reacting to those because buffered attacks are slower than they should be. So a buffered 400ms light is basically the same speed as a delayed 500ms light.

But if you're parrying/deflecting someone who is properly delaying those 400ms lights then you simply read the situation right.

Thanks for.the links.
And maybe i should have said this before but yes i am pretty aware input delay is one of the major differences with PC.

I can even feel it. For example on console if you want to parry JJ 400ms softfeint, even if you know it is coming, you cant just wait the red and then input the parry as on PC. You have to input it slighly earlier.

This input delay makes fast mooves hard to parry on console.

As i Said too, 60fps on PC is a too tight difference To be relevant. But with the shorter input delay And more fps. . Nothing is unreactable.

I am not aware as you are Raime at all the data figures. But what i know is that playing with 120 - 145Fps i could handle and punish everything in the game. Not with 60 or 75.

Of course i would lie if i said i was able to parry All 400ms lights, even delayed etc. But often enough To be confident about having an almost auto-Win against char based on fast lights.

And this is not about read. I was doing it on reaction.
I play only dominion. So most of time you dont know at all your opponents patterns and dont really have time To learn it most of times.

I am pretty sure of one thing. Any decent players could become a parry/deflect god by playing on PC with at least 120fps.

rottmeister
02-08-2019, 03:11 PM
So if I understand it correctly: the more frames you have, the more fluid the animations look, correct? If so then I'm siding with Siegfried. The more there is to an animation/the more fluidity the more "time" your brain has to process what's going on. Your brain is able to process it easier because you see more motion.

While attacks flow nicely on a high end pc, those same animations will look more robotic on a console. I'm no expert in biology or technology but aren't fast/robotic like motions harder to see than a motion that's the same speed but doesn't go in a straight line?

I'll stop here to avoid looking absolutely stupid in case what I said makes no sense at all. I'm specialized in insurances, economics, finances, real estate and languages. So pls, I'm not dumb, lol.

Knight_Raime
02-08-2019, 04:47 PM
How can something factual being flawed ?
I think i have a good reaction time but i am not a parry or deflect god as is Nate Cadillac for example.
Nate said to me he is playing with arround 50fps only and soon he gonna have 90fps. He said "it's gonna be easy mode".
FluxDeluxe said to me he plays with 160fps. Flux was playing on console at the begennings and in no way was able to parry everything just as he does now with 160fps.

As i Said i am not the best, that's pretty sure. Good, probably but that's all. And give me 120-140fps and i can punish 400ms lights on a regular basis.

About the mix up i am not sure we use the word reactable in the same meaning.
To me Warden SB as all the others we talk about is reactable because whatever he does, you can deal with it if you adapt your defense in the good way. Just as Conq or BP, their SB can be dodge on reaction. I dont say this is easy, but this possible. Just as Tiandi Palm strike etc.

But 400ms light are too fast for you to adapt your next moove in any way.
You have To do a poker moove and take a decision. If you're Lucky you block or parry in the good direction.



Thanks for.the links.
And maybe i should have said this before but yes i am pretty aware input delay is one of the major differences with PC.

I can even feel it. For example on console if you want to parry JJ 400ms softfeint, even if you know it is coming, you cant just wait the red and then input the parry as on PC. You have to input it slighly earlier.

This input delay makes fast mooves hard to parry on console.

As i Said too, 60fps on PC is a too tight difference To be relevant. But with the shorter input delay And more fps. . Nothing is unreactable.

I am not aware as you are Raime at all the data figures. But what i know is that playing with 120 - 145Fps i could handle and punish everything in the game. Not with 60 or 75.

Of course i would lie if i said i was able to parry All 400ms lights, even delayed etc. But often enough To be confident about having an almost auto-Win against char based on fast lights.

And this is not about read. I was doing it on reaction.
I play only dominion. So most of time you dont know at all your opponents patterns and dont really have time To learn it most of times.

I am pretty sure of one thing. Any decent players could become a parry/deflect god by playing on PC with at least 120fps.

I don't know anything about Nate and I know very little about flux. So I don't want to comment on their wording as i'm not aware of how knowledgable they are when it comes to this particular subject. All I can do is tell you what i've already told you. Massively increasing your frame count doesn't give you a tangible/noticable increase to your window on parrying. The only noticable difference that comes from having that high of a frame rate is even less input delay. As I noted in my TLDW having frame rate around that high with an optimal setup you're looking at around 50ms of input delay. Versus someone sitting with an optimal setup at 60fps (ala me) who is dealing with anywhere between 65ms-70+ms. Which is a noticable difference in input delay. But in both cases we still have the same window for reaction attempts.

Let's just look at Conq and Warden for simplicity sake. With conq, lets say you're always dodging on his dodge. This is a reactionary action. This will beat his buffered bash (i.e his fastest bash) and let you CGB if he empty dodged for a GB attempt. However it does not beat his delayed bash. To beat his delayed bash you have to read he's going to do so and then dodge on a different timing. If he knows you're looking for the delayed bash he can empty dodge and GB you which you won't be able to tech because he's catching you on delayed bash timing. So you "can" react to conq's bash. but you can't react to the whole bash mix up. Which is why it's effective.

Now lets talk Warden. Again you dodge on his dodge. This is a reactionary action. This will let you dodge his buffered bash (i.e his fastest bash) and let you CGB if he was empty dashing for a GB. However dodging on his dodge doesn't save you from feint into zone, feint into uncharged bash, or level 2 bash. If you notice him continuing to charge after you dodge you can dodge again and turn it into an unlocked roll. However if the warden is aware of you attempting that he can feint and throw his dash heavy to catch you in roll start up. And in this case you're reading thinking he's going for a fully charged bash. So again. You "can" react to his bash. But you can't react to the whole mix up. Which is why it is effective.


So if I understand it correctly: the more frames you have, the more fluid the animations look, correct? If so then I'm siding with Siegfried. The more there is to an animation/the more fluidity the more "time" your brain has to process what's going on. Your brain is able to process it easier because you see more motion.

While attacks flow nicely on a high end pc, those same animations will look more robotic on a console. I'm no expert in biology or technology but aren't fast/robotic like motions harder to see than a motion that's the same speed but doesn't go in a straight line?

I'll stop here to avoid looking absolutely stupid in case what I said makes no sense at all. I'm specialized in insurances, economics, finances, real estate and languages. So pls, I'm not dumb, lol.

The point I and Vakris are trying to establish here is that more frames does not equal more reaction time. That short parry window to a 400ms light is the same at 30fps as it is at 160fps. The only tangible benefit you get from having a higher frame rate is less input delay. And some falsely perceive this as more reaction time. When really all this is doing is allowing you to improve your choice reaction time. I.e the ability to quickly recognize and make a decision between choices (i.e mix ups.) Having higher frames can allow someone to "see better. But that's not the point of discussion nor is it something that you can really quantify to an accurate degree.

I can say from personal experience that Valk's lights were a sore spot for me on console. But when I switched to using a monitor instead of my tv I was more capable of defending myself from her combed lights. I now only play on pc with my modest monitor. Which affords me 60fps while sacrificing some graphical niceness. I can't plat on ultra settings with my pc due to my graphics card being a bit dated. But I play on almost high settings. Anyway, Even on my decent monitor valk's mix ups can give me some issues still. This is because my choice reaction time is not stellar. Getting a better GPU to have double the frames would not let me react to her mix ups any easier unless I specifically go out of my way to train myself against her mix ups. It's still 100% reactable if you have good choice reaction time. I just don't have that.

Siegfried is stating the higher frame rate he has the bigger reaction window he has. Which is not how frames work. The difference in actual reaction window from 30fps compared to anything above it is around 15-17ms. Which isn't tangible or noticable even by the best players in the world. As I briefly mentioned in my second message to him the best possible reaction time one can have is 233ms. Which means (in theory) you could react to a maximum delayed 400ms light that was always coming in the same direction. But this doesn't factor in input delay or connection. And if we're to extend this sentiment to the rest of the game this also doesn't factor in the 100ms guard switch delay. So in the case of Orochi's omni directional mid combo light or Nuxia's mid and finisher omni directional 400ms light you cannot react block where they come from if they're perfectly delaying them. Going even FURTHER out and we can factor in the forced recoveries someone gets for dodging or feinting a parry attempt. the former being 600ms and the latter being 400-500ms? And you should get the picture.

Much of what is in for honor is "reactable" to some degree. Even more of it if you can manage to bring your choice reaction time closer to your single action reaction time. But there are some things which will always not be reactable. And this is because of factors such as input delay, connection, and forced timings such as guard switch delay and recovery after actions. I denote much of Seig's success is from people who buffer the hell out of their actual attacks and don't really mix up often enough. Considering he's siting 4's as his main experience that would seem most likely. As even on pc people let a lot more fly than they should in 4's compared to duels.

Siegfried-Z
02-08-2019, 06:35 PM
Your grasp about frames is fundementally flawed. Just because you're capable of doing something with higher frames doesn't inherently mean higher frames mean you have a bigger window to react. People who regularly do frame checking for things in this game have already extensively tested the difference between console and pc with a variety of setups. The difference between 30fps and 60fps is around 17ms ish gap in time. That is so small of a difference it's basically irrelevant. You do not get a bigger window the higher you go in frames.

The reason Console has such a hard time with things is because of input delay. PC still has input delay but not nearly as much as console For honor does. Reaction time is something that is not bench marked with for honor. It is a global standard. I already touched on the two types of "reaction" times with my prior post that you should look at before continuing to read. Properly delayed 400ms lights are unreactable. Regardless of who you are or what platform/setup you have.

As far as mix ups you listed goes...Warden's bash games are not reactable. If you punish something he did it's because you knew he was going to do it. Conq's bash game is also not reactable. You're still reading between a buffered bash or a delayed one. It just has significantly less possibilities compared to warden's bash games. Gladiator does not have any decent mix ups. You can't react to any mix up Zerk does. Highlander's mix ups are match up dependent and thus I do not count them. Valk's mix ups are reactable. You can't react to shaman's flicker bash mix up it's a read. Kensei's top heavy mix up is reactable when you have stamina. You can't react to shinobi's tackle mix up. And you can't react to BP's mix ups.


I don't know anything about Nate and I know very little about flux. So I don't want to comment on their wording as i'm not aware of how knowledgable they are when it comes to this particular subject. All I can do is tell you what i've already told you. Massively increasing your frame count doesn't give you a tangible/noticable increase to your window on parrying. The only noticable difference that comes from having that high of a frame rate is even less input delay. As I noted in my TLDW having frame rate around that high with an optimal setup you're looking at around 50ms of input delay. Versus someone sitting with an optimal setup at 60fps (ala me) who is dealing with anywhere between 65ms-70+ms. Which is a noticable difference in input delay. But in both cases we still have the same window for reaction attempts.

Let's just look at Conq and Warden for simplicity sake. With conq, lets say you're always dodging on his dodge. This is a reactionary action. This will beat his buffered bash (i.e his fastest bash) and let you CGB if he empty dodged for a GB attempt. However it does not beat his delayed bash. To beat his delayed bash you have to read he's going to do so and then dodge on a different timing. If he knows you're looking for the delayed bash he can empty dodge and GB you which you won't be able to tech because he's catching you on delayed bash timing. So you "can" react to conq's bash. but you can't react to the whole bash mix up. Which is why it's effective.

Now lets talk Warden. Again you dodge on his dodge. This is a reactionary action. This will let you dodge his buffered bash (i.e his fastest bash) and let you CGB if he was empty dashing for a GB. However dodging on his dodge doesn't save you from feint into zone, feint into uncharged bash, or level 2 bash. If you notice him continuing to charge after you dodge you can dodge again and turn it into an unlocked roll. However if the warden is aware of you attempting that he can feint and throw his dash heavy to catch you in roll start up. And in this case you're reading thinking he's going for a fully charged bash. So again. You "can" react to his bash. But you can't react to the whole mix up. Which is why it is effective.



The point I and Vakris are trying to establish here is that more frames does not equal more reaction time. That short parry window to a 400ms light is the same at 30fps as it is at 160fps. The only tangible benefit you get from having a higher frame rate is less input delay. And some falsely perceive this as more reaction time. When really all this is doing is allowing you to improve your choice reaction time. I.e the ability to quickly recognize and make a decision between choices (i.e mix ups.) Having higher frames can allow someone to "see better. But that's not the point of discussion nor is it something that you can really quantify to an accurate degree.

I can say from personal experience that Valk's lights were a sore spot for me on console. But when I switched to using a monitor instead of my tv I was more capable of defending myself from her combed lights. I now only play on pc with my modest monitor. Which affords me 60fps while sacrificing some graphical niceness. I can't plat on ultra settings with my pc due to my graphics card being a bit dated. But I play on almost high settings. Anyway, Even on my decent monitor valk's mix ups can give me some issues still. This is because my choice reaction time is not stellar. Getting a better GPU to have double the frames would not let me react to her mix ups any easier unless I specifically go out of my way to train myself against her mix ups. It's still 100% reactable if you have good choice reaction time. I just don't have that.

Siegfried is stating the higher frame rate he has the bigger reaction window he has. Which is not how frames work. The difference in actual reaction window from 30fps compared to anything above it is around 15-17ms. Which isn't tangible or noticable even by the best players in the world. As I briefly mentioned in my second message to him the best possible reaction time one can have is 233ms. Which means (in theory) you could react to a maximum delayed 400ms light that was always coming in the same direction. But this doesn't factor in input delay or connection. And if we're to extend this sentiment to the rest of the game this also doesn't factor in the 100ms guard switch delay. So in the case of Orochi's omni directional mid combo light or Nuxia's mid and finisher omni directional 400ms light you cannot react block where they come from if they're perfectly delaying them. Going even FURTHER out and we can factor in the forced recoveries someone gets for dodging or feinting a parry attempt. the former being 600ms and the latter being 400-500ms? And you should get the picture.

Much of what is in for honor is "reactable" to some degree. Even more of it if you can manage to bring your choice reaction time closer to your single action reaction time. But there are some things which will always not be reactable. And this is because of factors such as input delay, connection, and forced timings such as guard switch delay and recovery after actions. I denote much of Seig's success is from people who buffer the hell out of their actual attacks and don't really mix up often enough. Considering he's siting 4's as his main experience that would seem most likely. As even on pc people let a lot more fly than they should in 4's compared to duels.

I am not saying the higher frame i have the higher is the réaction window.

I know this is only a slight difference.
But this slight difference, with less input delay and smoother animation overall makes me able to parry 400ms lights.
But yes, i do it in an easier way with 140fps than with 60.

If it would not bring anything better in the game expérience people would not spend money for better GPU/CPU.