PDA

View Full Version : Shogoki rework little OP?



SpaceJim12
02-04-2019, 02:20 PM
I mean, I'm not gonna judge right now, cause two reasons remind me it's not a common conditions:
1. I'm learning Black Prior right now
2. Shugo got new kit and new timings

Still, I'm absolutly helpless against Shugo in team fights now. He could just spam his charged attacks and care nothing. I could say Shugoki will be next top of 4v4 pick/winrate in season 1 Year 3. I can't see something unbeatable in 1v1 situations, so maybe his rework will be fine for duels.

What you guys think?

Illyrian_King
02-04-2019, 02:43 PM
In 4vs4 he is quiet strong. Not the best but strong. He was already usefull before his rework, but now he is different. Got also some harsh nerfs, like the 1-shot at critical health and by teammates interruptable embrace.

In 1vs1 his is rather weak. He has nothing, beside his heavy/embrace mix-up, and this one is easy to dodge on reaction. Just look closer at the animation. The headbutt is 600ms, doesn't blind enough, not guaranteed anymore and drains less stamina. Here he is still not viable in high tier. His passive HA is gone too and the protected lights and heavies is not enough compensation.

SpaceJim12
02-04-2019, 02:47 PM
In 4vs4 he is quiet strong. Not the best but strong. He was already usefull before his rework, but now he is different. Got also some harsh nerfs, like the 1-shot at critical health and by teammates interruptable embrace.

In 1vs1 his is rather weak. He has nothing, beside his heavy/embrace mix-up, and this one is easy to dodge on reaction. Just look closer at the animation. The headbutt is 600ms, doesn't blind enough, not guaranteed anymore and drains less stamina. Here he is still not viable in high tier. His passive HA is gone too and the protected lights and heavies is not enough compensation.

Don't know about his passive HA gone. Well, yes, embrace now is not ultimate tool to let your team kill someone. But I still can't cutch this new Shugo on Black Prior bulwark counter. Think it's a matter of training and time.

Illyrian_King
02-04-2019, 04:13 PM
Don't know about his passive HA gone. Well, yes, embrace now is not ultimate tool to let your team kill someone. But I still can't cutch this new Shugo on Black Prior bulwark counter. Think it's a matter of training and time.

The passive HA was indeed annoying, but somehow it made him unique. However his 1vs1 abilities are still not sufficient. Soon people will whine about him like after the Orochi rework. Just wait till everybody can dodge his mix-up consistantly.

In 4vs4 he is strong as I said, since his kit works fine if you don't put all focus on him. But if you do ... well insufficient ^^

rottmeister
02-04-2019, 04:56 PM
Is it weird I have less of an issue fighting Shugo's now than before? lol. I really hated the passive armor. DE isn't an insta kill anymore in 4vs4 so that's a plus. The fact that his animations have different timings (faster lights etc.) now is one of the few things I need to get used to

Knight_Raime
02-04-2019, 05:06 PM
I deff feel him being stronger in 4's. And while he certainly is better/more fun in duels he still has some of the same issues he had pre rework.

Helnekromancer
02-04-2019, 05:13 PM
I have issues fighting him but that's because I'm playing PK but also his Hug has weird tracking, I'm stilling trying to figure out the timing also his heavies proc the super armor very early into the swing, and the charged heavies feels longer. It's all learning the timings is all.
But two Shugokis can easily dominate a game now that he is basically a hug spammer.

Siegfried-Z
02-04-2019, 05:19 PM
Is it weird I have less of an issue fighting Shugo's now than before? lol. I really hated the passive armor. DE isn't an insta kill anymore in 4vs4 so that's a plus. The fact that his animations have different timings (faster lights etc.) now is one of the few things I need to get used to

This is maybe weird but i feel the same as you.
Before, while shugo was well known for being weak, his passive HA was really annoying me. . Like really.
Now, i feel he is stronger as i just made few dominion and duel with him and i was doing very well.

But in another hand i already shut new shugo down very easly.. more than ever before .
I Feel like his headbutt is easy to dodge and highly punishable, same for DE softfeint.
His lights have a good animation so they almost never catch me. Even on console.

So at the end i can see he is better now but i beat him kind of easly.

UbiInsulin
02-04-2019, 08:19 PM
I've seen a good deal of discussion on the Headbutt being not-so-good and passed it on to the team.

If he is still not great in 1v1, what would you all like to see him get to make him more viable? Something to make him better at catching people?

Knight_Raime
02-04-2019, 08:38 PM
I've seen a good deal of discussion on the Headbutt being not-so-good and passed it on to the team.

If he is still not great in 1v1, what would you all like to see him get to make him more viable? Something to make him better at catching people?

Aside from his headbutt being too easily dodgable and the recovery on whiffed demon's embrace being too high Goki's main problem is that a well timed dodge into roll can avoid his unblockable heavy/DE mix up. Something to help him catch rolls would be nice. But also they need to somehow figure out how to make the switch between unblockable heavy and DE seem less obvious. Even though the unblockable indicator isn't present initially the two animations are very distinct.

Also the blind from headbutt is far too short to actually try and hide what goki is up to.

carelessBadger0
02-04-2019, 09:31 PM
this game is ****ing garbage i literally just uninstalled it because of shugoki. how someone could let that type of garbage go live is beyond me. these devs make the game 100% more pure cancer with every ****ing update and im done.

MCBooma16
02-05-2019, 12:13 AM
I think Shugoki is pretty good now. Sometimes his feints and DEs get me, but I just need to make proper reads. With the UBs being feintable and the DE a cool soft feint, it makes for some cool mixups. He feels like a challenge to fight now.

As a Raider main, it's just a bad idea to use the followup headbutt. Just don't do it. I dodge it every time if I'm expecting it, and it normally doesn't turn out well for the Shugoki.

The headbutt is decent in group fights. It brings stam down and can sometimes put opponents out of stam. I suppose in 1v1s you'd simply have to condition the opponent not to expect it, you might be able to catch them off guard once or twice.

Other than that, it's a solid rework. Strong, no doubt, but not at all broken.

Mr.BrainPaiN
02-05-2019, 11:57 AM
does a shugoki a portal top heavy attack? sure not !
me as a shinobi = ur dead

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
02-05-2019, 11:46 PM
Shugoki in 4v4 isn't much better than he was before. Sure in 1v1 he does well but he had alot of nerfs in the rework. His damage, his headbutt was majorly nerfed, his ability to handle revenge, his ability to deal damage in revenge (damage Nerf and one shot deleted) , his ability to press an attack at a distance as his old zone you did not need to unlock and start a run, his uninteruptable was taken away, his ability to trade instead of premtively striking and hoping he doesn't get parried plus the stamina used to activate super armor, plus rock steady was nerfed with bps ?bulwart? Counter, plus tough to kill was nerfed, health Nerf (sort of) .
I'm not saying he wasn't buffed in certain areas mind you just that he is definitely not op in 4v4s at least. People are already adapting to his mix-ups. I like the rework but it's frustrating at times especially with revenged opponents or while in revenge and being ganked. In this regard shugoki is less than he was before.

Zombie.Face
02-06-2019, 08:57 AM
please don't make him better at catching people! i literally get stuck in every hug from the heavy feint. or i get hit by that.

Soldier_of_Dawn
02-06-2019, 08:39 PM
I've seen a good deal of discussion on the Headbutt being not-so-good and passed it on to the team.

If he is still not great in 1v1, what would you all like to see him get to make him more viable? Something to make him better at catching people?

I have some brainstorms to help the Shugoki catch his opponents:

1) Crashing Thunder changes:

1a) Attack From Neutral And In Any Direction:
Give the Shugoki a dodge-attack variation of the Crashing Thunder. It would be a chain starter like the original. The input would be the following:
Dodge + Heavy Attack

The move would have forward and side variations. When attacking from the side, the Shugoki would attack the inside. For example, if he attacks with the Crashing Thunder from a Left-dodge, the strike would hit his opponent on the Right, and vice versa.

1b) Cancel Options:

Standard cancel: The dodge-attack version of the Crashing Thunder would also be cancellable on the start-up of the strike so the Shugoki would be able to dash and then feint the move.
Demon's Embrace: The other cancel option would be the Heavy Attack Cancel where the Shugoki would be able to soft-feint the Crashing Thunder with the Demonís Embrace.


1c) Chargeable or Undodgeable Crashing Thunder:
Allow the Shugoki to charge the Crashing Thunder to make it unblockable as with standard heavies. This would add to Shugoki's mix-ups and, thus, the confusion of his opponents.

An alternative solution would be to give the Crashing Thunder the undodgeable property. That would make it easier to catch his opponents as well.


2) Charge Of The Oni changes

2a) Wall Splat:
Give the Charge Of The Oni a guaranteed wall splat if the opponent is in range of a wall. Charge of the Oni is useless in duels unless Shugoki players are prepared to ledge their opponents when a ledge is available.

2b) More Cancel Options:
Allow the Shugoki to cancel Charge of the Oni with the following:



Demon's Embrace
Crashing Thunder


The above changes would make Charge of the Oni more useful in duels as well as team battles by allowing the Shugoki to catch his opponents with the move's speed and cancel options.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
02-06-2019, 10:19 PM
I only think shugoki needs three things. He needs his damage buffed, he needs his headbutt buffed (speed, blind, and distance...and for god's sake make it ledge) and he needs to be able to do his OOL top heavy from neutral or something similar.
This would still leave him very exposed with his recovery times on his attacks which is how it should be. He would be a better "glass cannon" than he was before.

atac56
02-06-2019, 11:41 PM
I've seen a good deal of discussion on the Headbutt being not-so-good and passed it on to the team.

If he is still not great in 1v1, what would you all like to see him get to make him more viable? Something to make him better at catching people?

why is 1v1 being used as the standard of determining a characters worth if 1v1 isn't the most played playlist? i dont think every character needs to be as nimble as an assassin

SpaceJim12
02-07-2019, 01:37 PM
A little update!

Yesterday I spend 3 games against Shugoki and only counter I learn so far against his feint into DE is to roll away and then use light + bush + light.=)
Someone who play on Shugo, I need a little help. Tell me, when you feinted charged heavy into DE, could you change it with GB or something? I just curious, possible it or not, to just use bulwark counter in the middle of your heavy animation.

Still, tracking for feinted DE looks to high for me.=)