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View Full Version : They said : dont let him be like Conq. Hypocrites



S.ArthurDayne
02-02-2019, 11:38 PM
Guys when they announced BP , all the youtubers and streamers said the same thing : he looks cool , im gonna be maining him and I HOPE HE ISNT JUST ANOTHER CONQ , meaning shield bash heavy . Well well , they are still defending him .. you just need to learn the matchup .. his shield bash is fine ... its not a spammy hero .
Il admit he looks great , he is fun to play , the bulwark stance is a great idea and a nice tool ( maybe needs a tweak in 4v4s )
And overall i dont think he is stupidly overpowered or anything but he needs small twerks .
Shield Bash : 500 ms is fine . 20 dmg is a bit much ( it should be 15 - 18 dmg ) and the window for GB punish needs to be the same as Warlord headbutt and Conq shield bash
Now the " Hypocrites " part .
The youtuber Kenzo posted a 17 minute duel video of Vortiger in which he got the damage with the following moves :
SB= Shield Bash

Light + SB + Light = 5 times
Light + Heavy = 3 times
Neutral SB + Light = 49 times
Feint = 2 times
Bulwark flip = 0 times ... 0
GB = 3 times
Heavy = 5 times
Superior light = 2 times
Unblockable = 5 times

To repeat myself i like BP but SB is too safe and does to much damage thats why most of the people just spam the same moves .
We have to ask ourselfs do what kind of heroes do we want . Skill based heroes with mixups and cool new movesets and properties or every hero should have 1 or 2 safe moves they can spam ?
(edit : he removed the video i think cause all the comments told him he was just using SB )
Peace all .

Cyroy95
02-03-2019, 12:50 AM
Not having many issues with his bash from neutral. Tracking sucks, range sucks and it's very well telegraphed compared to Conq's.

TatoRezo
02-03-2019, 12:55 AM
What is neutral shieldbash? Zone?

Also he has the weakest dodge game I'm not sure if its a bug or not but he has no attack from side dodges and they appear late af

ArchDukeInstinct
02-03-2019, 02:16 AM
A lot of For Honor YouTubers have always been big time Anti-Conqs ever since the game's initial release so there's really no big shocker that they're hypocrites.

That being said, while you can spam the shield bash of Black Prior and get decent results, his shield bash has much worse tracking and he has other viable offensive options in stark contrast to Conqueror.

FlyinBeef
02-03-2019, 02:27 AM
Not having many issues with his bash from neutral. Tracking sucks, range sucks and it's very well telegraphed compared to Conq's.
Yeah, his delay doesn't work, it useful only when opponent stay far, it isn't very hard to dodge his bash, but the main problem that he have very, very low recovery, it is quite impossible to punish him without side dodge bash, he could spam this shield bash very safely and of course you will get 20dmg sometimes.

Goat_of_Vermund
02-03-2019, 02:58 AM
Dodge attacks should catch him. Conqueror has that weakness, I always get in dodge attacks when I dodge a forward shieldbash. The damage is fine since he lacks side dodge versions like conq (and as I anticipated, it is not a favorable matchup for him), but it should be punishable with a dodge attack. It is just fair (and I am about to Main main him, but this should be added to fair game).

Btw, some youtubers were always hypocrites. There were legions of them 16 months ago who started to main shaman, but kept hating the peacekeeper.

Knight_Raime
02-03-2019, 03:52 PM
Personally I think if someone plays him like the typical player plays conq then they're not utilizing BP's kit to it's fullest. Kenso does duels mainly iirc. So i'm not surprised bullwark counter often. Even in 4's against a coordinated team it's a big risk that you have to use sparingly. BP's main "meat" of his kit is his 3 unblockables from neutral. From there you sort of sprinkle in combo finishers, superior block attacks, and of course bullwark counter.

As far as his kit as a whole goes I think they did a fairly good job in it's design. Like take his neutral bash for instance. As a stand alone bash it's not very great. It has poor tracking. It doesn't have superior block on dodge. and you can only do it from a forward dodge. Preventing you from being able to use it as a reactionary punish from dodging something. However, you also have his zone and his unblockable heavy to contend with from neutral. So you can't just dodge it and punish it on reaction. I think they were very smart about the tools they gave his kit. It all seems to flow together nicely.

That being said there are adjustments I would make:
~Lower damage on his bash after light and lower damage on his finisher heavies.
~Damage reduction for both black prior and the person he flips. Rather than damage immunity for him and no damage reduction on target flip.
~Neutral bash and bash after chain starter light recovery increased be consistent with punishing other bash based offense.
~100ms increase to leaving bullwark to make punishing that possible.

My concern though is if we reduce the damage he gets on his opponents wrong reads AND increase the recovery on his bash from neutral/light that it might tilt his pressure from strong to weak. Primarily because the tracking on both is awful. And iirc you can't really delay his bash after light to a significant degree. Of course we could just buff the tracking on both. But then he might become TOO strong with pressure and make him feel more generic bash game wise. But even with that worry it's not a cut and dry worry because he still has both zone and that unblockable heavy to threaten with. So that might still be able to hold him up even though his bash wouldn't be as threatening as it is currently.

It's hard to tell and i'm not good enough at the game to be able to say either way comfortably. But if I was having to make a call I'd say we do one or the other. Nerf the damage OR increase the recovery. Knowing what I know i'd probably go with the latter. As damage changes most of the time don't actually solve the real problem being felt. It's usually more a bandaid to address the cries of the average players.

Sneakly20
02-03-2019, 05:11 PM
That being said there are adjustments I would make:
~Lower damage on his bash after light and lower damage on his finisher heavies.
~Damage reduction for both black prior and the person he flips. Rather than damage immunity for him and no damage reduction on target flip.
~Neutral bash and bash after chain starter light recovery increased be consistent with punishing other bash based offense.
~100ms increase to leaving bullwark to make punishing that possible.

My concern though is if we reduce the damage he gets on his opponents wrong reads AND increase the recovery on his bash from neutral/light that it might tilt his pressure from strong to weak. Primarily because the tracking on both is awful. And iirc you can't really delay his bash after light to a significant degree. Of course we could just buff the tracking on both. But then he might become TOO strong with pressure and make him feel more generic bash game wise. But even with that worry it's not a cut and dry worry because he still has both zone and that unblockable heavy to threaten with. So that might still be able to hold him up even though his bash wouldn't be as threatening as it is currently.

I do see where you are coming from with the recovery and maybe that can be changed but I believe the damage should stay. Sure his bash hurts but in its current form I would say it evens out because of said awful tracking. And I would agree with you to say increasing said tracking would lead to more problems.

Iím all for damage reduction on both BP and flipped opponents. One being crushed and the other not taking any damage at all is insane. Now granted the insane part is the BP Invincibility.

I am curious as to why you think heavy finishers should have their damage toned down. I can understand ( and look at the billion of other BP bash threads ) why youíd bring the bash up. But I donít think the heavy should get damage lowered. Especially since the only incentive to dodge it is trying to get away from bash after light. You canít pressure with it any other way. In dominion sure as everyone and their mother has something for you to dodge.

And although you said youíd like the combo bash to have its recovery lengthened then thatís a perfect reason to not lower damage on finisher heavy. You said if you had to pick it would be increase recovery and and that I agree with.

My final point is the extra 100ms from leaving bulwark. I feel like this is a change for higher level play. But I donít really care about this change in particular Iím just bringing up the point that unlike any other fullblock BP doesnít have superior block because the counter is a timed input from the player that acts like a parry is a sense. I would say itís strength goes up because of its fast flow from blocking which ( on correct reads) would make any follow up 400ms light useless. And that wouldnít be there if it has superior block on it anyway because they canít combo. Again Iím just bringing up a point. Iím just curious on that change as well.

Knight_Raime
02-03-2019, 05:29 PM
I do see where you are coming from with the recovery and maybe that can be changed but I believe the damage should stay. Sure his bash hurts but in its current form I would say it evens out because of said awful tracking. And I would agree with you to say increasing said tracking would lead to more problems.

I’m all for damage reduction on both BP and flipped opponents. One being crushed and the other not taking any damage at all is insane. Now granted the insane part is the BP Invincibility.

I am curious as to why you think heavy finishers should have their damage toned down. I can understand ( and look at the billion of other BP bash threads ) why you’d bring the bash up. But I don’t think the heavy should get damage lowered. Especially since the only incentive to dodge it is trying to get away from bash after light. You can’t pressure with it any other way. In dominion sure as everyone and their mother has something for you to dodge.

And although you said you’d like the combo bash to have its recovery lengthened then that’s a perfect reason to not lower damage on finisher heavy. You said if you had to pick it would be increase recovery and and that I agree with.

My final point is the extra 100ms from leaving bulwark. I feel like this is a change for higher level play. But I don’t really care about this change in particular I’m just bringing up the point that unlike any other fullblock BP doesn’t have superior block because the counter is a timed input from the player that acts like a parry is a sense. I would say it’s strength goes up because of its fast flow from blocking which ( on correct reads) would make any follow up 400ms light useless. And that wouldn’t be there if it has superior block on it anyway because they can’t combo. Again I’m just bringing up a point. I’m just curious on that change as well.

Yeah I see a lot of comparisons to his damage off bash with other bash ones. But I think that's not looking at the full picture. Which is why i'd rather have the recovery on his bash to be increased instead. As for nerfing his heavy finisher damage it's because his current mix up from a landed light is comparable to Shaolin's qi stance after light. Shaolin iirc gets 33? damage from his side undodgable heavies or 20 from the light off of kick.

BP's mix up is 20 from a landed bash or 40 from a landed undodgable heavy. What sets them apart though is Shaolin has to know which side to use his heavy on in order to catch the dodging individual. Where as BP doesn't by just doing a top undodgable heavy. So I think taking it's damage down slightly (in junction with the damage from a confirmed bash) would be the way to go if we were trying to address his in chain pressure via damage nerfs. It's more of an if/then kind of change. Meaning if we nerf the damage from a confirmed bash we also nerf the heavy.

As for increasing the leave from BW from 100ms to 200ms it's deff a high tier change. Currently many (including myself) are theorizing that a good player playing BP could leave BW on reaction to seeing the feint smoke/gb indicator and be able to CGB. Considering he can fast flow into it from two seperate ways trying to make punishing it slightly easier seems logical. That being said it's unlikely anyone will develop that kind of reaction time anytime soon. And likely only a few people will ever be able to do it anyway. So it's not the biggest priority. Just something to keep an eye on.

UbiInsulin
02-03-2019, 08:20 PM
Appreciate the detailed discussion here. Thanks everyone!

Pain-Seeker
02-03-2019, 10:18 PM
Reduce the stamina dmg from bash when OOS , its ridiculous

MuscleTech12018
02-03-2019, 11:03 PM
He can one shot you for all your stamina if he is in revenge :)) just thing about this :))

Siegfried-Z
02-04-2019, 12:55 AM
Yeah I see a lot of comparisons to his damage off bash with other bash ones. But I think that's not looking at the full picture. Which is why i'd rather have the recovery on his bash to be increased instead. As for nerfing his heavy finisher damage it's because his current mix up from a landed light is comparable to Shaolin's qi stance after light. Shaolin iirc gets 33? damage from his side undodgable heavies or 20 from the light off of kick.

BP's mix up is 20 from a landed bash or 40 from a landed undodgable heavy. What sets them apart though is Shaolin has to know which side to use his heavy on in order to catch the dodging individual. Where as BP doesn't by just doing a top undodgable heavy. So I think taking it's damage down slightly (in junction with the damage from a confirmed bash) would be the way to go if we were trying to address his in chain pressure via damage nerfs. It's more of an if/then kind of change. Meaning if we nerf the damage from a confirmed bash we also nerf the heavy.

As for increasing the leave from BW from 100ms to 200ms it's deff a high tier change. Currently many (including myself) are theorizing that a good player playing BP could leave BW on reaction to seeing the feint smoke/gb indicator and be able to CGB. Considering he can fast flow into it from two seperate ways trying to make punishing it slightly easier seems logical. That being said it's unlikely anyone will develop that kind of reaction time anytime soon. And likely only a few people will ever be able to do it anyway. So it's not the biggest priority. Just something to keep an eye on.

I agree with the recovery point.
But i don't think his dmg should be reduced. Or only maybe his light finisher by 2 or 3 dmg but overall BP dmg are very well made to me. His light opener is average, finisher above most others. His heavy opener is slighly below average and his finisher is kind of. So many char can score 40dmg or more in a single heavy currently that i believe he should keep the 40 dmg.. this is a tank heavy finisher with normal aoe and no UB property. It just looks fine.


I know we discuss about it before but at the end i don't think BP mix up after his light is comparable to Shaolin one. Because with BP you can really just dodge the bash on reaction while you have to predict it with Shaolin. Shaolin one is much harder to read.


In my own experience of course.

Psykhozis
02-05-2019, 12:24 AM
isn t kenzo a bikini brand ?