PDA

View Full Version : Black prior info dump



Knight_Raime
01-29-2019, 08:50 PM
Today an embargo has lifted meaning selected people were invited out to play the new hero and respective hero updates early. Today i'm going to do my best to inform you guys everything you'd possibly want to know about Black prior. As always feel free to ask questions if I do not cover something you want to know. Shout out to Freeze, Alernakin, Marco Yolo for the info i'm about to give.

Black prior Moveset:

~One combo that can be all 2 hit variations of light and heavy.
~A bash that he can do from a forward dodge or after a chain starter.
~Bullwark which is his hold back stance.
~Unblockable heavy from stance that is feintable.
~Counter move that is done from hitting light attack on the proper timing.
~Can soft feint his heavy opener into his bash.
~Guard switches to the side you dodge to instantly.
~can fast flow into bullwark off of any attack or from blocking an attack.
~Dashing forward heavy that has superior block property.
~opening lights have superior block property.
~heavy finishers are undodgable.
~Zone is a bash that can chain into light or heavy finisher on hit or whiff.


Numbers:
~All light attacks are 500ms with a small 300ms delay window. (for reference that's only 100ms faster than a buffered attack.
~All heavies are 800ms except the neutral top heavy which is 900ms.
~His forward dodge bash and bash from an opening attack are 500ms with the same variable input window as conq's forward bash.
~Soft feinted bash from neutral heavy is 700ms.
~Dash forward heavy is a 600ms attack with a large variable window.
~Superior block properties start 100ms into the animation and have a 300ms window.
~Zone attack is 700ms with a 300ms vulnerability window for GB.
~it takes black prior 200ms to enter into bullwark stance.
~Bullwark counter is 100ms with a 300ms active window. If he whiffs he can't do anything for 500ms.
~His guard returns 600ms after his bash. Making it basically impossible to punish on a reaction.
~Leaving bullwark is incredibly fast only taking 100ms.
~Unblockable heavy from bullwark can be feinted up to 400ms into the animation which is standard.
~Time to initiate BW counter from "neutral" is 200ms. But if he's already in BW it's 100ms.


Punishes:
~Light parry nets him a heavy.
~heavy parry nets him a bash which gives him a light.
~OOS throw gives him a light into heavy.
~OOS parry gives him two side heavies.
~Revenge parry is light into heavy.


More info about bullwark/counter:
Bullwark does not have superior block property meaning comboed heavies still stun. Bullwark counter works on everything from basic attacks to drop attacks and even deflects. The only counters it has are shinobi, valks, and zerks deflects. It can't counter guard breaks. And Nuxias traps. They actually cancel each other out. (meaning if he tries to counter her trap. If she traps him without him using counter then her trap works.) Though due to the long recovery on whiff Nuxia's follow up light delayed or not should land.

Due to the numbers this essentially means Black prior can't counter follow up attacks if he's eaten a hit unless it's a slow follow up. There are only a few exceptions. Tiandi's palm strike and shaolin's kick after hit stun into qi and LB's shove on block to name most. HOWEVER, If he blocks the attack first and then fast flows into bullwark he can counter any follow up his counter works on. Finally while performing a successful counter BP is immune to damage even from feats. And his attack from this counter hits in a 360 degree angle. Meaning if you were flipped you can't some how not get hit. Also the targets being flipped do not get damage reduction. They take full damage from your allies hitting them.



Tying it all together/what does this all mean?
Black prior has some stupidly good pressure. A simple light attack or dodge has so many options for an individual to watch for that he can keep you on your toes. His dodge bash has poor tracking actually compared to conq's. This means even though you can vary the input of said bash it doesn't do much for you. In fact it means you can actually dodge on one timing that avoids all varied inputs. However BP can do some things to sort of lessen the sting of this. Dodge into GB. Dodge into light. or dodge into zone and dodge into Bullwark into UB heavy feint into whatever. These options essentially prevent someone from being able to reaction dodge on your dodge to avoid the 500ms bash.

Then you get into his mix up pressure. Which you'll get into from several places in his kit. Essentially if he's landed a hit/bash (or in some cases whiffed one) he can follow up with an undodgable from any side, bash (if he landed an opener first) or bullwark into heavy. He can also not combo into anything and dodge at you and do anything I mentioned above already if he's predicting you to dodge into roll. Dodge forward heavy also comes handy hear if someone is reaction dodge into rolling. But will not get someone who is spacing well and prediction dodge rolls instead.

It gets nuttier though. If he's in revenge or you are OOS any light of his you block guarantees his bash. Which nets him stamina damage AND a 20 damage light. And then that leads back into his pseudo infinite. Which is canceling his finisher attack's recovery with bullwark and then immediately throwing the unblockable heavy. Which he either feints and does any of what I said he can do from a neutral dodge. or he lets it fly and continues to do his finisher loop via the follow up after the UB hit lands.

Finally he is very strong defensively. Bullwark counter being a thing that very easily counters a lot of basic 4's tactics on top of making heros who rely on being in combo to deal chip damage severely struggle to actually hurt him. And most mix ups these days that heros rely on in order to open up a standard turtle in a 1v1 encounter he laughs off with ease as long as he can get into his bullwark from fast flow. Even not considering bullwark he still has instant block on dodge to help defend against follow up 400ms lights. And we cant forget his very generous superior block frames on opening lights and his dodge heavy. All of which net him 40 damage and are chain starters.


TLDR/closing thoughts:
Black prior has strong pressure from neutral and in combo and it gets even stronger if he has revenge or his opponent is OOS. Defensively speaking he's also very very strong. Essentially gifting someone who plays Black prior the tools to be able to handle any situation should they have the reactions and knowledge of match ups and general game sense. However he does have some Notable weaknesses. He lacks in the chase down department. Meaning opponents who are good at spacing and are good at predictions will be able to avoid most of what black prior can dish without BP himself being able to do much. And your basic feint games are his biggest weakness as he's got no dodge attack to deal with GB's. No move to use on reaction to GB's. and his long recovery on a BW counter whiff.

In my opinion his damage model is a bit high. I think his bash is too safe as is and needs to have a longer vulnerability window. I am visibly uncomfortable with giving him the ability to avoid damage entirely while he's performing his counter. He already flips literally everyone who connects with his bullwark counter. And his counter works on virtually everything. I can understand giving him damage reduction during this. But total immunity? I think that's too far. I love him both asthetically and how his kit more or less plays out. And i'd rather have a hero come out strong and be brought in some than launch weak and likely never get to the mark they need to be at. So I am cautious about the hero but optimistic. Nicely done devs.

UbiInsulin
01-29-2019, 08:52 PM
Dang, nice post Knight_Raime! Thanks for this.

Knight_Raime
01-29-2019, 09:06 PM
Dang, nice post Knight_Raime! Thanks for this.

The real thanks goes to the credited community members I listed. They did all the leg work. I'm just reposting it. But thanks as always for your kind words.

rottmeister
01-29-2019, 09:38 PM
I was really surpised how good his Bulwark counter is. It's insane how he can flip most enemies' deflects (with the exception of Zerk, Shinobi and Valk). He seems to be the only character that can punish opponents that performs a drop attack without having to actively move out of the way. I like that his bulwark counter doesn't require an extra input after catching an opponent with it making it confirmed once you land it. I hate how everytime I play Nuxia both enemies and teammates can hit me out of traps. Now I can symbolically flip off my opponents and teammates as I don't have to worry anymore that some ... eager person swoops in and interrupts my punish.

In some aspects he does look kind of scary to face. Considering the Warden and Conq population will probably be wiped out soon, we'll have to deal with him a lot. As of right now he seems to have a very safe moveset. I'm talking about his bashes and out of stamina pressure. He looks like a better Conq with a Gladiator like zone attack. BP also has a few different bashes (with different timings) making it hard to predict what he's going to do next in turn making dodges a lot more difficult than when you're facing a Conq. At the moment his OOS pressure is insane, for every blocked light he gets a confirmed SB + light while draining stamina. So basically you get a free 20 dmg everytime while keeping the opponent OOS for as long as it takes to kill him. The only thing the opponent can do is attempt a parry, but on a wrong read he can get parried for like 70 dmg (30 + 40 dmg).

Apart from that he looks like a very interesting interesting character. In his current state I would call him a bit broken because of his OOS pressure in combination with his bashes and the ability to counter punishes (deflects). Not too sure about whether the timings on his bashes are too different so I won't include it in my judgement, however I've heard a YouTuber, I think it was Freeze say that the bashes (regular and zone) had different dodge timings making it hard to react. Hopefully there's a specific timing where you dodge both (kind of like with HL's Kick into Caber toss and JJ's dash heavy into kick).

Also from what I've seen and heard BP can negate GB attempts (from when he is in Bulwark stance) by either hitting a heavy while in stance or immediately going out of the stance and CGB. That seems incredibly strong, certainly for a move that can only be countered by a gb or whiffed trap.

Knight_Raime
01-29-2019, 09:48 PM
I was really surpised how good his Bulwark counter is. It's insane how he can flip most enemies' deflects (with the exception of Zerk, Shinobi and Valk). He seems to be the only character that can punish opponents that performs a drop attack without having to actively move out of the way. I like that his bulwark counter doesn't require an extra input after catching an opponent with it making it confirmed once you land it. I hate how everytime I play Nuxia both enemies and teammates can hit me out of traps. Now I can symbolically flip off my opponents and teammates as I don't have to worry anymore that some ... eager person swoops in and interrupts my punish.

In some aspects he does look kind of scary to face. Considering the Warden and Conq population will probably be wiped out soon, we'll have to deal with him a lot. As of right now he seems to have a very safe moveset. I'm talking about his bashes and out of stamina pressure. He looks like a better Conq with a Gladiator like zone attack. BP also has a few different bashes (with different timings) making it hard to predict what he's going to do next in turn making dodges a lot more difficult than when you're facing a Conq. At the moment his OOS pressure is insane, for every blocked light he gets a confirmed SB + light while draining stamina. So basically you get a free 20 dmg everytime while keeping the opponent OOS for as long as it takes to kill him. The only thing the opponent can do is attempt a parry, but on a wrong read he can get parried for like 70 dmg (30 + 40 dmg).

Apart from that he looks like a very interesting interesting character. In his current state I would call him a bit broken because of his OOS pressure in combination with his bashes and the ability to counter punishes (deflects). Not too sure about whether the timings on his bashes are too different so I won't include it in my judgement, however I've heard a YouTuber, I think it was Freeze say that the bashes (regular and zone) had different dodge timings making it hard to react. Hopefully there's a specific timing where you dodge both (kind of like with HL's Kick into Caber toss and JJ's dash heavy into kick).

So there is some to unpack here.

First I wouldn't call him a better conq. Unless you're strictly meaning this is how conq should have been. Then sure. But conq's neutral bash is better because it's covered up by superior block and can be done from front and side dodges. It also has good tracking where BP's bashes (aside from maybe the soft feint) do not. So offensively and defensively conq's bash game is better. Now if you're talking about how strong conq is defensively i'd say the jury is still out on that one. His many option selects and the charge mechanic alone and paired with uppercut and normal dodge into bash make him VERY hard to actually hit. Where as BP is very exposed when it comes to feint games since almost his entire defense relies on bullwark.

The timing of the neutral bash and bash after attack are both easy to avoid on their own regardless of input delaying or not because of their poor tracking. The only other varied bash timing is his soft feint from heavy opener. But it's 700ms so it's not hard to avoid whenever you see it. Regarding his zone it actually has super good tracking. so BP can dodge into zone to counter someone who's trying to avoid everything on reaction or on one timing.
Spacing is BP's other weakness because he severely lacks the tracking/movement to deal with someone who plays at his edge range.

I think him being able to counter deflects is perfectly fine. I think deflects in general need improvements to make the risks worth it.

rottmeister
01-29-2019, 10:03 PM
I probably should've been a bit more specific. With different timings in bashes I meant the timing to dodge his shielbash and zone attack. I also probably should've done research when calling him a better conq. His bash is more or less the same yet inferior to conqs because BP can't use it as a dodge attack or as superior dodge. Conqs defensive game is imo still the best in the game with BP in close second. Conq has an insanely powerful option select that allows him to turtle up and avoid damage. However while conq can only punish one opponent when full blocking, BP can punish several at the same time (while being able to ledge them all). Not sure on who has the better full block but to me it seems that BP is able to get in it and out of it faster. Also he can attack when in full block allowing him to do some mind games. I called BP superior because he has more options than conq. I'm not too sure on this but I believe BP gets more damage off of his bashes.

Sneakly20
01-29-2019, 10:14 PM
So there is some to unpack here.

First I wouldn't call him a better conq. Unless you're strictly meaning this is how conq should have been. Then sure. But conq's neutral bash is better because it's covered up by superior block and can be done from front and side dodges. It also has good tracking where BP's bashes (aside from maybe the soft feint) do not. So offensively and defensively conq's bash game is better. Now if you're talking about how strong conq is defensively i'd say the jury is still out on that one. His many option selects and the charge mechanic alone and paired with uppercut and normal dodge into bash make him VERY hard to actually hit. Where as BP is very exposed when it comes to feint games since almost his entire defense relies on bullwark.

The timing of the neutral bash and bash after attack are both easy to avoid on their own regardless of input delaying or not because of their poor tracking. The only other varied bash timing is his soft feint from heavy opener. But it's 700ms so it's not hard to avoid whenever you see it. Regarding his zone it actually has super good tracking. so BP can dodge into zone to counter someone who's trying to avoid everything on reaction or on one timing.
Spacing is BP's other weakness because he severely lacks the tracking/movement to deal with someone who plays at his edge range.

I think him being able to counter deflects is perfectly fine. I think deflects in general need improvements to make the risks worth it.

I love what they did. The only thing Iím skeptical about is his OOS and revenge game. Iím perfectly fine with a high damage model as long as it works well. But I do think the light to bash is a little overkill.
As far the bash goes otherwise I do agree that it needs more recovery frames. Not a lot but enough to be fair. Granted comparing this to conq it kinda wraps up his infinite into one light and thatís the end of it.

Second is his immunity to damage while counter is active. Shouldnít exist because even if you are successful in something like that you shouldnt be invincible. Hell not even just successful. You shouldnít be immune to damage ever.

Now Iím absolutely IN LOVE with the pseudo infinite he has. Thatís my two cents. He looks solid otherwise and seems to work well. I just think if they did three things heíd be perfect :

Bulwark doesnít grant immunity
Being flipped gives damage reduction
Not give him his current OOS pressure.

Knight_Raime
01-29-2019, 10:16 PM
I probably should've been a bit more specific. With different timings in bashes I meant the timing to dodge his shielbash and zone attack. I also probably should've done research when calling him a better conq. His bash is more or less the same yet inferior to conqs because BP can't use it as a dodge attack or as superior dodge. Conqs defensive game is imo still the best in the game with BP in close second. Conq has an insanely powerful option select that allows him to turtle up and avoid damage. However while conq can only punish one opponent when full blocking, BP can punish several at the same time (while being able to ledge them all). Not sure on who has the better full block but to me it seems that BP is able to get in it and out of it faster. Also he can attack when in full block allowing him to do some mind games. I called BP superior because he has more options than conq. I'm not too sure on this but I believe BP gets more damage off of his bashes.

With no feats BP gets more damage with a 20 damage light. But with the feat that lets bashes do damage on conq he hits harder with bash+light.
And yeah there is a different time to dodge if you're looking for his zone from neutral instead of his bash from neutral. But considering it's a 700ms bash once people can recognize the different animation BP players will have to do more than just alternate between the two neutral bashes.

I like to think of it as BP using full block for situational purposes. Popping in and out of it and countering with it. conq's FB is more for option selecting and being defensive in general. Different purposes/jobs.

Knight_Raime
01-29-2019, 10:19 PM
I love what they did. The only thing I’m skeptical about is his OOS and revenge game. I’m perfectly fine with a high damage model as long as it works well. But I do think the light to bash is a little overkill.
As far the bash goes otherwise I do agree that it needs more recovery frames. Not a lot but enough to be fair. Granted comparing this to conq it kinda wraps up his infinite into one light and that’s the end of it.

Second is his immunity to damage while counter is active. Shouldn’t exist because even if you are successful in something like that you shouldnt be invincible. Hell not even just successful. You shouldn’t be immune to damage ever.

Now I’m absolutely IN LOVE with the pseudo infinite he has. That’s my two cents. He looks solid otherwise and seems to work well. I just think if they did three things he’d be perfect :

Bulwark doesn’t grant immunity
Being flipped gives damage reduction
Not give him his current OOS pressure.

I'm skeptical on removing the given bash during OOS/revenge instances. Mainly because of how important his bash gameplay is to the rest of his kit. If the stamina damage is the problem that will be fixed eventually when they implament their stamina overhaul. If it's the confirmed damage they could just nerf it. At the very least I think he should still get a guaranteed bash from his crushing counters. I agree on removing the immunity in favor of giving him damage reduction instead.

rottmeister
01-29-2019, 10:25 PM
With no feats BP gets more damage with a 20 damage light. But with the feat that lets bashes do damage on conq he hits harder with bash+light.
And yeah there is a different time to dodge if you're looking for his zone from neutral instead of his bash from neutral. But considering it's a 700ms bash once people can recognize the different animation BP players will have to do more than just alternate between the two neutral bashes.

I like to think of it as BP using full block for situational purposes. Popping in and out of it and countering with it. conq's FB is more for option selecting and being defensive in general. Different purposes/jobs.

I don't think BP's full block will be situational. Personally I think it will be a signature move from him, but certainly not a gimmick (like Warden and his bash 'mind games'). But we'll see I guess. Unless you've been playing BP in early access, then I'll retract my statement.

Knight_Raime
01-29-2019, 10:32 PM
I don't think BP's full block will be situational. Personally I think it will be a signature move from him, but certainly not a gimmick (like Warden and his bash 'mind games'). But we'll see I guess. Unless you've been playing BP in early access, then I'll retract my statement.

Situational is the wrong word. What I mean is you won't sit in it for long periods of time to defend yourself. Nor can you over use it due to feint games.

rottmeister
01-29-2019, 10:45 PM
Situational is the wrong word. What I mean is you won't sit in it for long periods of time to defend yourself. Nor can you over use it due to feint games.

I completely agree.

Siegfried-Z
01-30-2019, 12:20 AM
His guaranteed Bash after a blocked lights while opponent is OOS or the BP is in revenge gonna be removed i think.

It obviously looks like a bug they have to fix, it is too good.

rottmeister
01-30-2019, 07:08 AM
His guaranteed Bash after a blocked lights while opponent is OOS or the BP is in revenge gonna be removed i think.

It obviously looks like a bug they have to fix, it is too good.

Didn't Tiandi have a similar problem pre Marching Fire? It probably will be changed (certainly for OOS).

Solowing_96
01-30-2019, 09:49 AM
Im Curious If Bullwark Counter Mets Nuxia's Trap, What will happen?

Siegfried-Z
01-30-2019, 11:12 AM
Didn't Tiandi have a similar problem pre Marching Fire? It probably will be changed (certainly for OOS).

Yes. And as they remove it before MF. . I gess this will be fix soon.
To me it looks more like an unintended bug and not as a part of his kit.
Imagine how unfair it is against most of players unable to parry 500ms lights.. they just die if they go OOS once ^^


Im Curious If Bullwark Counter Mets Nuxia's Trap, What will happen?

Nuxia trap is the only moove which negate the flip. It doesnt beat it, but both are nullified if they meet each others.
Just like when 2 guys try to GB at the exact same time .
If you try to flip a Nuxia trap then nothing happen and both came back from neutral.

rottmeister
01-30-2019, 11:16 AM
Yes. And as they remove it before MF. . I gess this will be fix soon.
To me it looks more like an unintended bug and not as a part of his kit.
Imagine how unfair it is against most of players unable to parry 500ms lights.. they just die if they go OOS once ^^



Nuxia trap is the only moove which negate the flip. It doesnt beat it, but both are nullified if they meet each others.
Just like when 2 guys try to GB at the exact same time .
If you try to flip a Nuxia trap then nothing happen and both came back from neutral.

I've heard that BP can't block the light after trying to BC her trap giving her an advantage. A whiffed trap still allows you to continue your chain.

Knight_Raime
01-30-2019, 03:11 PM
His guaranteed Bash after a blocked lights while opponent is OOS or the BP is in revenge gonna be removed i think.

It obviously looks like a bug they have to fix, it is too good.

It might get launched. But it should be fixed quickly. It was a problem with Tiandi and they didn't keep it there. it's likely an oversight from testing.


Im Curious If Bullwark Counter Mets Nuxia's Trap, What will happen?

Bullwark counter does not counter traps. It whiffs trying to counter traps. And because Black prior is technically attacking during this and said attack does not have block frames Nuxia's trap will whiff as well. That being said BP has 500ms of recovery on a counter whiff and nuxia can chain a light attack after trap whiffing. Meaning she still comes out on top because black prior won't be able to avoid or do anything to the incoming light.