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View Full Version : Ideas for hero nerfs/buffs/reworks



pretoastedwaffl
01-28-2019, 09:29 AM
Jj should have slower lights or he should deal less damage as well as that he shouldn't have as quick stamina regen.
Shaolin could have a small nerf on light attacks especially on the kick into light.
Nuxia needs a light damage nerf as well as orochi but only a small nerf. Maybe lowering damage of light attacks to around 10/12.
Beserker should not have as much hyper armour and he should have less damage on lights.
Conqueror should have a slower bash and Warden shouldn't be able to continue bash into a vortex after using it. Could have a small cool down in time before he can use it again. Or higher stamina cost.
Centurion should not have a wall splat parry counter but should be able to use his punches in chains more whenever he wants to disrupt opponents. He'll be a much better hero when he relies less on the wall splat.
Shaman should not have the bite move but should still have the rest of her kit.
Gladiator should have longer reflex guard but a little damage nerf on opening heavies and on lights.
Shinobi just needs a completely new rework and same for lb.
Highlander shouldn't have feint from kick into grab in my opinion.
Tiandi should have less fast light attacks and should not have do as much damage on zone or light attacks.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
01-28-2019, 09:44 AM
I was musing that all characters should have aramushas all guard. Instead of having to fix all the broken lights why not just give ever hero a counter attack.

Solowing_96
01-28-2019, 10:05 AM
I was musing that all characters should have aramushas all guard. Instead of having to fix all the broken lights why not just give ever hero a counter attack.

And all heroes will become hybrid classes. LOL.

Knight_Raime
01-28-2019, 11:49 AM
Wall of text incoming:

"Jj should have slower lights or he should deal less damage as well as that he shouldn't have as quick stamina regen."

Having slower lights would put his lights at 600ms. Which is already deemed to not be usable offense by the developers. You're likely making this suggestion because you continue to get hit by his follow up light despite the fixes put forward to the animations. If this is the case then asking them to further adjust his animations so they seem more clear is the right way to go. I don't see why his stamina regen is a problem. He has limited mix ups/moves in general. Having less stamina wouldn't change how potent he feels for you. In my opinion the only nerf JJ needs is to his exclusive feats. Beyond that he needs buffs so he actually can fight in 1v1.

"Shaolin could have a small nerf on light attacks especially on the kick into light."

His current damage model for the triple light is 12-6-6. And the light after kick is 20 iirc. Meaning the standard loop people take (double light into kick into light) nets 38 damage. I have argued shifting the damage to 6-6-12 and nerfing the light damage to somewhere between 15-18. This means on the low end hed be getting 25 damage for his troubles or 28 on the high end. Both of which are roughly equivalent to a heavy parry punish. Which is fair. Personally i'd also like to see him be able to feint qi heavies back into qi to give him an answer to turtles. And maybe also let his side dash heavies from neutral chain into combo.

"Nuxia needs a light damage nerf as well as orochi but only a small nerf. Maybe lowering damage of light attacks to around 10/12."

Orochi's damage on lights are fine as is. he only gets 1 omni directional 400ms light and a 400ms light finisher from the top. Nuxia's lights are also fine as is considering they encourage her to loop in a chain with her traps. The problem is her traps are reactable for above average players. And for average players it's that she's getting 2 omni directional 400ms lights. Removing one of those to only be one direction like orochi's would be the way to go. I'd also like to have her traps be better but writing up how is going to take more than i'd like to type for this part. So beyond that i'd also like her be able to have an extra deflect option into a chain heavy finisher that's guaranteed but low damage. That way she always gets access to that special property. And maybe also make it so her zone is actually a two hitting part. This will make her zone actually useful.

"Beserker should not have as much hyper armour and he should have less damage on lights."

Berzerker needs all the armor he has currently. As is he has to land two hits usually for a trade to be worth it. And he's further encouraged into trading because he can cover up his own whiff recoveries to punish a wrong read. If we reduced the armor he had this would no longer be possible. Which instead of forcing an interesting interaction on a read between zerk and his opponent would heavily tilt things in his opponents favor and thus the ability to cancel his whiff recoveries would become useless. It is agreed that his opening light does too much damage though and people are fine with that being nerfed.

"Conqueror should have a slower bash and Warden shouldn't be able to continue bash into a vortex after using it. Could have a small cool down in time before he can use it again. Or higher stamina cost."

Slowing Conqurer's neutral bash means he'll no longer have an offense. Which kills his usability in every skill tier outside high skill players. High skill players would theoretically have less of a chance to punish him then because conq would go full defensive mode. And that's where conq is actually scary. Conq needs nothing short of a full rework. With warden's rework they nerfed the "vortex" in 3 ways. They reduced the damage his double lights did, increased the stamina cost for using a bash, and massively increased his guard break vulnerability on a whiff. Warden and his opponent have to make constant reads. The only nerf that Warden deserves and the one that would benefit average players whilst not harming top/high tier play would be to reduce the stun he inflicts on a fully charged bash to only allow a side heavy instead of a top heavy. this massively increases his TTK by one whole full bash. Which in theory should give much more of an opportunity for average players to out play warden.

"Centurion should not have a wall splat parry counter but should be able to use his punches in chains more whenever he wants to disrupt opponents. He'll be a much better hero when he relies less on the wall splat."

Centurion has average to poor throw distance as is and doesn't have any way to force someone to play near a splattable surface. So calling out to have that removed is a little odd. I assume you don't like the cutscene combo. I don't either. But he'd need a full rework either way.

"Shaman should not have the bite move but should still have the rest of her kit."

Bite is fine. She doesn't have much as is if you don't know how to flicker her unblockable bash. Though I wouldn't know how to improve her else where.

"Gladiator should have longer reflex guard but a little damage nerf on opening heavies and on lights."

Yes to the better guard. No to the damage nerf. He needs a lot of polish because he's still really only zone the character. Beyond that his heavies are really only good in specific scenarios. same with toe stab. he needs faster in combo attacks, a reason to use his dodge bashes, improvements to his side dodge lights, skewer needs a lot of help, and toe stab should be the same speed as normal toe stab so it can actually be used as an oos threat. If he got massively better then they should also look for a way to make his zone consistently punishable by the whole cast. Because as is that's the main problem with it. Not many heros can consistently punish it. And some can't punish it at all.

"Shinobi just needs a completely new rework and same for lb.
Highlander shouldn't have feint from kick into grab in my opinion."

Shinobi does need a rework. LB just needs polish. Everything he needs already exists in his kit in some form. Highlander needs a rework.

"Tiandi should have less fast light attacks and should not have do as much damage on zone or light attacks."

I could agree on his zone first hit taking a damage nerf. But his lights are fine damage wise. Same with their speed. He can't really get into his light finishers easily and it's only his light finishers that are 400ms so it's not like he can really spam them like some other heros. The only other nerf I could realistically see for him would be to slow his block recovery since he can basically dodge into 400ms attacks in what essentially would be reactionary play. Other heros also have this 0ms block on dodge. Kensei, conq, tiandi, and I think one other hero has this. it shouldn't be a thing. it's way too strong.

pretoastedwaffl
01-28-2019, 04:24 PM
At the end of the day slowing down attacks is not the best idea but light spam is bad on console so some small light nerfs would be nice also beserker and shaman were quite high up on the win matrix last time so they need to be lowered a little and having a bite that does 50 damage is straight up perplexing. Conqueror and Warden do need a nerf to their bash as it really does take away the skill of playing these two characters. I would suggest just a small speed nerf for conqueror and a little more stamina cost. Conqueror has been up at the top way too long as well so it's time the devs tone them down a little.
At the end of the day wu lin are so annoying because of them all being light spammers furthermore they seem to have way too many mix ups and little weaknesses to exploit therefore they should have a nerf too. Then again I may be wrong but we'll just have to see when the next win matrix is released to see if my ideas match the current trend in win rates.
Thank you for replying :).

Star.Princess
01-28-2019, 06:55 PM
Jj should have slower lights or he should deal less damage as well as that he shouldn't have as quick stamina regen.
Shaolin could have a small nerf on light attacks especially on the kick into light.
Nuxia needs a light damage nerf as well as orochi but only a small nerf. Maybe lowering damage of light attacks to around 10/12.
Beserker should not have as much hyper armour and he should have less damage on lights.
Conqueror should have a slower bash and Warden shouldn't be able to continue bash into a vortex after using it. Could have a small cool down in time before he can use it again. Or higher stamina cost.
Centurion should not have a wall splat parry counter but should be able to use his punches in chains more whenever he wants to disrupt opponents. He'll be a much better hero when he relies less on the wall splat.
Shaman should not have the bite move but should still have the rest of her kit.
Gladiator should have longer reflex guard but a little damage nerf on opening heavies and on lights.
Shinobi just needs a completely new rework and same for lb.
Highlander shouldn't have feint from kick into grab in my opinion.
Tiandi should have less fast light attacks and should not have do as much damage on zone or light attacks.
Balancing heroes isn't something simple, there should be long separate threads for each character, some random nerfs of something are stupid, especially for balanced or little bit weak heroes.

pretoastedwaffl
01-28-2019, 07:01 PM
I'm good thanks

UbiInsulin
01-28-2019, 07:35 PM
Balancing heroes isn't something simple, there should be long separate threads for each character, some random nerfs of something are stupid, especially for balanced or little bit weak heroes.

This format is fine, I don't think the proposed changes were random by any means. I could have used more explanation for the changes in some cases, but some of these are already familiar to me so I didn't need much more detail (i.e. Glad's reflex guard, JJ doing less damage, LB needing changes).

Lawbringer is being worked on, btw!

pretoastedwaffl
01-28-2019, 07:43 PM
I'm happy to give an explanation to some of my suggestions if you want and I have been playing for a while and thinking about how this game could be balanced a bit better so it wasn't random.

Star.Princess
01-28-2019, 07:55 PM
This format is fine, I don't think the proposed changes were random by any means. I could have used more explanation for the changes in some cases, but some of these are already familiar to me so I didn't need much more detail (i.e. Glad's reflex guard, JJ doing less damage, LB needing changes).

Lawbringer is being worked on, btw!

I think it is stupid to nerf Highlander for example, cause now he is very balanced and skill requirable. Moreover, I don't think that somebody need nerf at all, weak heroes must be buffed, not vice versa.

Star.Princess
01-28-2019, 08:00 PM
I mean that weak heroes should be buffed to Tier A/S heroes, then everybody will be equal. It is stupid to nerfing Wu Lin for example, it would be better if Centurion or Aramusha would have Monk's strength and variability.

pretoastedwaffl
01-28-2019, 08:11 PM
I think Yeah we need some buffs and I didn't suggest many ideas for buffing character but we should do that however it would be good also to nerf some characters a little. Otherwise weak characters will get too big buffs and will become too strong so a combination of small nerfs and buffs could help balance the game a bit better.

Carnifisch
01-28-2019, 08:16 PM
I think i would change the Shoulder Bash of the Warden.
After 300ms charge he can no longer cancel his Shoulder Bash.

pretoastedwaffl
01-28-2019, 08:26 PM
Yeah that could work but I hate it when they spam the bash over and over again so if they could only do it once in a row that would be good as well

UbiInsulin
01-28-2019, 09:04 PM
I'm happy to give an explanation to some of my suggestions if you want and I have been playing for a while and thinking about how this game could be balanced a bit better so it wasn't random.

Thanks! Shinobi rework is not a request I see a whole lot.

I would also ask about the Nuxia and Tiandi nerfs. JJ and Shaolin I see plenty of requests for nerfs for, and general threads that call for nerfing all Wu Lin heroes - but Nuxia and Tiandi are generally considered middle-of-the-pack heroes by many.

pretoastedwaffl
01-28-2019, 09:29 PM
From my experience playing tiandi and shinobi in duels on the xbox they are just not very fun to fight as they are quite hard to open up especially shinobi. They both have styles revolved around very safe moves eg tiandis zone and lights or shinobis constant dodges. Nor can tiandi be punished for missing his bash attacks. He normally has a way too escape when using his dodge attack. In general I just find them annoying to fight and they can win games easily by being able to control the fight at their own pace. Nuxia again just offers nothing good with annoying light attack mix ups.

They aren't major problems atm I'd much rather see jj, beserker, shamans bite and conqueror/Wardens bash get a nerf before these guys.

Those 3 characters don't really seem to add much to the game or make it fun in general so that's why I'm not a fan of these characters or their styles.

Siegfried-Z
01-29-2019, 01:15 AM
This format is fine, I don't think the proposed changes were random by any means. I could have used more explanation for the changes in some cases, but some of these are already familiar to me so I didn't need much more detail (i.e. Glad's reflex guard, JJ doing less damage, LB needing changes).

Lawbringer is being worked on, btw!

Glad guard .. this is a vey minor changes which should have been fixed for a while . Glad suffering such a short guard is a pretty unfair weakness compare to others. As is his 600ms 2nd light considering wulins brings heavy and vanguard with 400ms mooves .

In another hand JJ damages far above the others is an unfair advantage JJ has and that's not normal considering his amount of UB, HA, fast and damaging lights and huge HP pool.

I also think we should not nerf Strong char but buff the weakest. That's why i would never ask for a Zerk or Shaman nerf.
But didn't nerf Strong char doesn't mean to let in the game unfair things.
And currently JJ DMG and feats are something i truly consider unfair in the game and that's the only thing along with Shaolin lights animation. . They looks even faster than Roch 400ms lights, which is weird.
As you said Nuxia and Tiandi are fine. For Pc. Rip console

chukblok
01-29-2019, 04:42 AM
-Glad guard
-Raider needs a speed increase on heavies or some other sort of opener.
-I agree the JJ damage is a bit much
-I still can't seem to defend against Nuxia lights on console... Could be me though
-Shinobi for sure needs some work. He just doesn't seem to fit in with the direction the game is going. Just out of place

EvoX.
01-29-2019, 06:33 AM
Play the game more and try to learn how different heroes are countered. From the ones you listed, only Conqueror, Warden and Zerk need a tone down in certain areas in exchange for other buffs. After a certain amount of time played, you'll realize every other hero you listed is either underpowered, fine or, in the case of Shinobi, just not meant for this game.

pretoastedwaffl
01-29-2019, 08:55 AM
That is true they can be countered but the majority of players can't stand these few characters. It would just be a small nerf for these characters but at the end of the day if all the casual players leave there won't be anyone left to play for honor therefore we have to balance the game for people who might not be at a really good level. Honestly conq and beserker are very tough to fight so I believe just a small change or two could help things feel more balanced. There's others as well who should get the nerf like shamans bite and jjs weird animations.

Melikethegames
01-29-2019, 11:59 AM
Jj should have slower lights or he should deal less damage as well as that he shouldn't have as quick stamina regen.
Shaolin could have a small nerf on light attacks especially on the kick into light.
Nuxia needs a light damage nerf as well as orochi but only a small nerf. Maybe lowering damage of light attacks to around 10/12.
Beserker should not have as much hyper armour and he should have less damage on lights.
Conqueror should have a slower bash and Warden shouldn't be able to continue bash into a vortex after using it. Could have a small cool down in time before he can use it again. Or higher stamina cost.
Centurion should not have a wall splat parry counter but should be able to use his punches in chains more whenever he wants to disrupt opponents. He'll be a much better hero when he relies less on the wall splat.
Shaman should not have the bite move but should still have the rest of her kit.
Gladiator should have longer reflex guard but a little damage nerf on opening heavies and on lights.
Shinobi just needs a completely new rework and same for lb.
Highlander shouldn't have feint from kick into grab in my opinion.
Tiandi should have less fast light attacks and should not have do as much damage on zone or light attacks.

im agree with berserker and nuxia and centurion need nerf

Melikethegames
01-29-2019, 12:00 PM
Thanks! Shinobi rework is not a request I see a whole lot.

I would also ask about the Nuxia and Tiandi nerfs. JJ and Shaolin I see plenty of requests for nerfs for, and general threads that call for nerfing all Wu Lin heroes - but Nuxia and Tiandi are generally considered middle-of-the-pack heroes by many.

Nuxia need damn nerf with traps and light spam BIG OFF

C4rmine52
01-29-2019, 02:10 PM
im agree with berserker and nuxia and centurion need nerf
Centurion doesn’t need a nerf he needs a rework. He’s a trash hero but his cut scene makes him annoying to fight

Goat_of_Vermund
01-29-2019, 02:14 PM
Centurion and nuxia are among the weakest heroes. It takes only minimal understanding of their kits to beat them.