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MrB3NX
01-25-2019, 12:08 PM
Hello guys ,

I'm rep 16 Shoguki and i felt devastated when i red the patch for the most waited rework

Demon Embrace is now trash

Headbutts are now trash

Feats and passives are now trash

the hero himself is worse than ever with max hp nerfed

all of these heart breaking nerfs are the cost to make him slightly more quicker and variant plus the ability to feint ?

are you serious ?

i'm totally shocked and in disbelieve

shattered and broken while watching Stefan preaches with a smile

what have you done to my precious efforts that i've worked and paid for my main

I PREFER TO BECOME A TURTLE AND GETS PARRIED WHENEVER I ATTACK RATHER THAN BEING A 500 POUNDS OF PURE BREATHING GARBAGE WHO CAN'T FIGHT NOR ENTERTAIN !!!

to tell the truth , I should not be disappointed since i'm wasting my time for a disappointment named Ubisoft .

.

Szalej.
01-25-2019, 12:12 PM
If you kept his embrace and headbut the same Shugo would instantly become god tier with no weak spot at all. Noone wants to fight a turtle, its boring and no satysfying at all. He has good mind games now and many ways to open up people.

Vakris_One
01-25-2019, 12:22 PM
How did you come to the conclusion that Shugo is worse than he is now?
- He actually has a mixup game with a variety of feints
- He can actually go on the offensive
- He doesn't take increased damage from a BS hyper armour mechanic
- He doesn't take damage on a whiffed hug
- He gets full stamina back from a successful hug
- His headbutt has more utility in a gank and allows him to chain into his heavy finisher
- He can land Demon's Embrace way more often

Did you honestly expect they would leave his passive hyper armour and Demon's Embrace one-shotting at critical while giving him all these buffs? Sounds like you're just dissapointed that you have to learn how to play a new more aggressive Shugoki.

rottmeister
01-25-2019, 01:01 PM
In the gameplay he looked a lot better. Just relax, have faith and try him out when the rework comes by. People have said Warden's rework was trash when they showed it off and look at him now, he's one of the better duelists because of his bash. It's hard to put Shugo's rework into a tier list by having seen only 3 or so matches.

Lord_Cherubi
01-25-2019, 03:03 PM
I couldn't be happier about his patch notes!

I mean i guess he lost a bit of his personality when they made him faster and more mix-uppy like basically everyone else but that was a compromise that had to be made.

I was already having fun when he was trash, now i will take my revenge on all those cheesy tryhards who made me do all the work in duels and laugh like a maniac as i do 😈

GeneraISoIo
01-25-2019, 03:09 PM
have faith and try him out when the rework comes by.
I would take this advice. I was really upset about all the things they changed with the Valk when they reveled her reworks. They had nerfed the crap out of her in ways of connecting combos, but in the end she came out to be more balanced for you and your opponents, which resulted in an overall more enjoyable experience.

MrB3NX
01-25-2019, 04:30 PM
How did you come to the conclusion that Shugo is worse than he is now?
- He actually has a mixup game with a variety of feints
- He can actually go on the offensive
- He doesn't take increased damage from a BS hyper armour mechanic
- He doesn't take damage on a whiffed hug
- He gets full stamina back from a successful hug
- His headbutt has more utility in a gank and allows him to chain into his heavy finisher
- He can land Demon's Embrace way more often

Did you honestly expect they would leave his passive hyper armour and Demon's Embrace one-shotting at critical while giving him all these buffs? Sounds like you're just dissapointed that you have to learn how to play a new more aggressive Shugoki.

Sure you defend Ubisoft by ignoring the following :

- No longer Embraces commanders

- No longer Embraces Revengeful enemy heroes

- No longer cast Demon Embrace as a solo move , you have to feint or throw in order to make the weakest version of Demon Embrace

- No longer kills when in critical health

- No longer drains the target's stamina

- Demon Embrace damage and healing nerfed by 40%

- Demon Embrace can now be interrupted by friends or enemies


I truly don't want the minor buffs for the cost of the huge nerfs .

MrB3NX
01-25-2019, 04:32 PM
In the gameplay he looked a lot better. Just relax, have faith and try him out when the rework comes by. People have said Warden's rework was trash when they showed it off and look at him now, he's one of the better duelists because of his bash. It's hard to put Shugo's rework into a tier list by having seen only 3 or so matches.

the old warden is better and you can't change my mind .

Goat_of_Vermund
01-25-2019, 04:56 PM
The old warden was terribly weak. The new warden is an S tier top duelist.

I am only rep 4 with shugoki, but do you realize these changes were implemented because he doesn't kill himself while missing a demon's embrace, and because demon's embrace won't take a year to land? Nobody landed them from neutral, never. They landed them on wallsplats, which won't come if the enemy pays at least a little attention. The new one will land quite often.

So, the major nerf is, you can't abuse it in 4v4 as much (in theory of course, it never really landed even in 4v4 against competent players). And the minor buff is, you can now use it without with real chance of landing it. And faking it out from a heavy is much better than the neutral version was, it forces a reaction, the current neutral one forces you to laugh, call over your grandma and tell them which buttons she should press to kill the shugoki.

Sneakly20
01-25-2019, 05:04 PM
Sure you defend Ubisoft by ignoring the following :

- No longer Embraces commanders

- No longer Embraces Revengeful enemy heroes

- No longer cast Demon Embrace as a solo move , you have to feint or throw in order to make the weakest version of Demon Embrace

- No longer kills when in critical health

- No longer drains the target's stamina

- Demon Embrace damage and healing nerfed by 40%

- Demon Embrace can now be interrupted by friends or enemies


I truly don't want the minor buffs for the cost of the huge nerfs .

It was stupid that he could grab an objective/ commander. It allowed too much.

So you’re upset that it doesn’t grab revenge opponents? Man im definitely gonna miss activating revenge just to be grabbed and deleted.

I more or less don’t really care about it being a solo move or not.

So I can wear you down and when you’re finally on deaths door you get to instantly kill me ? Yea no. Regardless of goki standing kit wise it wasn’t needed and horrible.

The stamina doesn’t really matter. At all.

Nerfed because it’s faster and no longer damages himself, also gives stamina back.

The interruption from enemies and teammates should have been a thing from the beginning. It would be dumb to take 3 or 6 heavies from being caught by one move. Granted I feel this way about raider charge but that’s a different story.

Overall embrace was changed for the better. If the new goki has this stuff still he’d be too powerful and nowhere near as fun.

MCBooma16
01-25-2019, 05:16 PM
I did nothing but smile when I saw the rework. The slower Shugoki with headbutt and HA only stalled attacks and was forced to fish for parries to get damage in.

The reworked Shugoki now has an amazing set of possible offensive options now that he has faster lights, 50/50s with Demon Embrace, 50/50s with the charges and now feint able heavies, a better zone, a 50/50 with a headbutt chain, etc. What the heck is there not to like? Shugoki can now be this big, mean, powerful aggressor, qualities he really lacked before.

Shugoki can now force reactions. He will for sure be a force to be reckoned with and will require other players to make more reads when facing a Shugoki.

Hyper armor on all opening lights and heavies will allow trading to still be possible, so players may still need to watch the Shugoki heavies.

With the HA gone and health set to a max of 140, Shugo will not be taking extra damage, but regular damage. With all these qualities he'll definitely still be viable in duels, and especially viable in the other game modes.

Fights with a Shugoki will no longer be slow, boring, and turtley. Fighting and playing a Shugoki will be so much fun and I absolutely can't be disappointed with this rework.

I guess the OP just likes being a bish and playing like the old, slow, turtley, typical Shugoki.

MrB3NX
01-25-2019, 07:02 PM
It was stupid that he could grab an objective/ commander. It allowed too much.

So you’re upset that it doesn’t grab revenge opponents? Man im definitely gonna miss activating revenge just to be grabbed and deleted.

I more or less don’t really care about it being a solo move or not.

So I can wear you down and when you’re finally on deaths door you get to instantly kill me ? Yea no. Regardless of goki standing kit wise it wasn’t needed and horrible.

The stamina doesn’t really matter. At all.

Nerfed because it’s faster and no longer damages himself, also gives stamina back.

The interruption from enemies and teammates should have been a thing from the beginning. It would be dumb to take 3 or 6 heavies from being caught by one move. Granted I feel this way about raider charge but that’s a different story.

Overall embrace was changed for the better. If the new goki has this stuff still he’d be too powerful and nowhere near as fun.

it seems you have been hugged a lot in the past which is definitely your fault since it's super easy to dodge

leave that aside

give me your opinion on the other nerfs like headbutt no longer guaranteed after a light and now drains less stamina from the target and no longer able to ledge with it

three nerfs at once for one move that is already weak

let me hear you again and laugh at your excuses .

Dane520123
01-25-2019, 07:27 PM
The shugoki rework is good. Sorry that there’s legitimate skill required use him now. And he’s better

MrB3NX
01-25-2019, 07:48 PM
The shugoki rework is good. Sorry that there’s legitimate skill required use him now. And he’s better

legitimate skill ?

you mean to press then cancel and press again ?

you call that legitimate skill ?

seriously if you wanna play that way there are already tons of other heroes who perform good only by that way

Shoguki is meant to be special , unique and different from the roaster

they just killed this feature of him and now he's pretty much like the other bums who never meant for my liking .

Goat_of_Vermund
01-25-2019, 07:49 PM
On the headbutt:

1. It never ledged.
2. Back when it was guaranteed, you take it, swear a bit, backdodge until you get back your stamina, and start the bs over, because by that time, he already regained his full armor (he of course had no oos pressure at all, so it doesn't matter how well he exhausted opponents). It was a stupid move which forced both players to wait for the next clash,taking out 5 seconds from the game. And shugoki eventually died at the end.

The new headbutt can be used after whiffs, which wasn't a thing. If it lands, it blinds and it can be chained into something, which wasn't a thing, so the blind part has some actual usefulness. It was a "****, I backup for stamina and kill him later, he can't do anything" move. It is now a "****, is that a heavy, a demon's embrace or something else that is going to hit me while I am possibly exhausted?" move.

Honestly, I was very happy for this rework, it was a masterpiece, something they did to the kensei, they raised a dead character to viable level. I even think this one will be able to defeat conquerors quite well. What could the old one do beside trolling?

bannex19
01-25-2019, 09:59 PM
Shug now has tools to actually fight with and doesn't get to rely on broken cheese mechanics.

Anybody complaining about this rework abused the broken stuff they changed and hadn't bothered to learn how to play the game as a result.

GeneraISoIo
01-25-2019, 10:07 PM
Shug now has tools to actually fight with and doesn't get to rely on broken cheese mechanics.

Anybody complaining about this rework abused the broken stuff they changed and hadn't bothered to learn how to play the game as a result.

I agree, Shugo is harder to play with now (which to me is a good thing), and more balanced. No more unblockable mashing and hug smashing all the time. Time to actually think of a strategy to use Shugo. The Warden is really good at basics and not much more, but if you actually use your head and come up with tactics, he is a beast! This rework seems like it went in the right direction to me.

bannex19
01-25-2019, 10:11 PM
I agree, Shugo is harder to play with now (which to me is a good thing), and more balanced. No more unblockable mashing and hug smashing all the time. Time to actually think of a strategy to use Shugo. The Warden is really good at basics and not much more, but if you actually use your head and come up with tactics, he is a beast! This rework seems like it went in the right direction to me.

His unblockables and hugs will be easier to get off. The hug will land more reliably and it won't ignore the game mechanics. A shug buff without nerfing his cheese would break the game but these shugo mains would never admit that.

Knight_Raime
01-26-2019, 12:07 AM
So first you're confused. The whole patch is not shugoki's rework. So you claiming the whole patch is bad over that alone is just you being hyperbolic.
Second you're basically stating that because you don't like the new changes that he's bad now. That's not how this works.

"No longer Embraces commanders"
This is stated no where in the patch notes.

"No longer Embraces Revengeful enemy heroes"
Yes. And goki's worth in a team fight was never hinged on that factor. It doesn't impact him greatly and removes a general frustrating interaction with his kit. Which is what most of his rework does.

"No longer cast Demon Embrace as a solo move , you have to feint or throw in order to make the weakest version of Demon Embrace"
Demon's embrace post rework is basically predators mercy but without needing to proc an effect to do it. Allowing it to be done from neutral in this state would have been borderline broken. The soft feint version was the exact same version as the neutral version. So saying it's "the weaker version" isn't even a thing.

"No longer kills when in critical health"
No hero should have the ability to OHK ever. The only time this ever landed was if your opponent was literally distracted and you came from off screen. Or you were playing someone who didn't know how to move around. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise.

"No longer drains the target's stamina"
Which doesn't help and never helped goki to begin with.

"Demon Embrace damage and healing nerfed by 40%"
Yes and in return he is able to get it more often and not receive a penalty for whiffing one. Fair trade.

"Demon Embrace can now be interrupted by friends or enemies"
Which makes sense because it's directly comparable to predators mercy now. And they changed the animation anyway. Meaning you don't hold them on your back nearly as long as you used to. So in reality it's not a big nerf. If timed properly with allies you can still land more than one heavy after goki gets his damage in.

"I truly don't want the minor buffs for the cost of the huge nerfs"
Which is just you either admitting you don't understand the game (if you think these buffs are minor) or you admitting you preferred having actually bad mechanics just because it sometimes bolstered your poor performance. But you did admit to preferring to be a turtle over being able to actually play the game. So why am I even surprised.

Goki has pressure now. Goki can be a disabler more often now. Goki's EHP is actually higher now due to more frequent hugs and no damage penalties from whiffing DE/no passive armor. Everytime Goki lands a hug (which was sped up btw) he gets full stamina back. Which means he can absolutely continue to do feint mix ups and raw attacks and even go OOS with his DE input and still get it all back. Giving him armor on his 500ms lights means he can trade on reaction to other players which lets him go right into his mix up loop. Being able to chain into headbutt on whiff is huge because that means you can't effectively whiff punish goki when he's trying to bait you with whiffed attacks. And head butt linking back into his mix up is insanely good.

The only potential issue with goki's new kit is that you might be able to some what easily unlock roll away from goki's offense. But there is no way you can punish it now on reaction. Which is amazingly good. Yes. It was interesting that goki's headbutt, passive armor, and fluctuating heal amount made things a sumo fight on occasion. Yes. It was cool to play super badly and still have the back pocket chance of winning with a critical DE. Did any of that realistically happen on a frequent basis? No. Are those niche feelings worth keeping a character unviable for average and up skill tiers? Hell no.

You liked aspects of a character and now there gone. it sucks. I LOVED getting my 65 damage cutscene on every parry with centurion. That doesn't mean it should have stayed around. You need to understand that.

UbiInsulin
01-26-2019, 12:24 AM
We'll just have to see how it goes. I'm sorry that it was not 100% what you wanted, OP, but Shugoki needed major change. I hope you'll give us your impressions after playing the update.

MrB3NX
01-26-2019, 05:33 AM
So first you're confused. The whole patch is not shugoki's rework. So you claiming the whole patch is bad over that alone is just you being hyperbolic.
Second you're basically stating that because you don't like the new changes that he's bad now. That's not how this works.

"No longer Embraces commanders"
This is stated no where in the patch notes.

"No longer Embraces Revengeful enemy heroes"
Yes. And goki's worth in a team fight was never hinged on that factor. It doesn't impact him greatly and removes a general frustrating interaction with his kit. Which is what most of his rework does.

"No longer cast Demon Embrace as a solo move , you have to feint or throw in order to make the weakest version of Demon Embrace"
Demon's embrace post rework is basically predators mercy but without needing to proc an effect to do it. Allowing it to be done from neutral in this state would have been borderline broken. The soft feint version was the exact same version as the neutral version. So saying it's "the weaker version" isn't even a thing.

"No longer kills when in critical health"
No hero should have the ability to OHK ever. The only time this ever landed was if your opponent was literally distracted and you came from off screen. Or you were playing someone who didn't know how to move around. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise.

"No longer drains the target's stamina"
Which doesn't help and never helped goki to begin with.

"Demon Embrace damage and healing nerfed by 40%"
Yes and in return he is able to get it more often and not receive a penalty for whiffing one. Fair trade.

"Demon Embrace can now be interrupted by friends or enemies"
Which makes sense because it's directly comparable to predators mercy now. And they changed the animation anyway. Meaning you don't hold them on your back nearly as long as you used to. So in reality it's not a big nerf. If timed properly with allies you can still land more than one heavy after goki gets his damage in.

"I truly don't want the minor buffs for the cost of the huge nerfs"
Which is just you either admitting you don't understand the game (if you think these buffs are minor) or you admitting you preferred having actually bad mechanics just because it sometimes bolstered your poor performance. But you did admit to preferring to be a turtle over being able to actually play the game. So why am I even surprised.

Goki has pressure now. Goki can be a disabler more often now. Goki's EHP is actually higher now due to more frequent hugs and no damage penalties from whiffing DE/no passive armor. Everytime Goki lands a hug (which was sped up btw) he gets full stamina back. Which means he can absolutely continue to do feint mix ups and raw attacks and even go OOS with his DE input and still get it all back. Giving him armor on his 500ms lights means he can trade on reaction to other players which lets him go right into his mix up loop. Being able to chain into headbutt on whiff is huge because that means you can't effectively whiff punish goki when he's trying to bait you with whiffed attacks. And head butt linking back into his mix up is insanely good.

The only potential issue with goki's new kit is that you might be able to some what easily unlock roll away from goki's offense. But there is no way you can punish it now on reaction. Which is amazingly good. Yes. It was interesting that goki's headbutt, passive armor, and fluctuating heal amount made things a sumo fight on occasion. Yes. It was cool to play super badly and still have the back pocket chance of winning with a critical DE. Did any of that realistically happen on a frequent basis? No. Are those niche feelings worth keeping a character unviable for average and up skill tiers? Hell no.

You liked aspects of a character and now there gone. it sucks. I LOVED getting my 65 damage cutscene on every parry with centurion. That doesn't mean it should have stayed around. You need to understand that.

welcome mate



So first you're confused. The whole patch is not shugoki's rework. So you claiming the whole patch is bad over that alone is just you being hyperbolic.


they removed the ladder's conflict which kills 95% of the game's fun in my opinion so yeah it is a very bad patch .



Second you're basically stating that because you don't like the new changes that he's bad now. That's not how this works.


i said he's bad because i can tell and i explained a bunch on why he is gonna be bad .



"No longer Embraces commanders"
This is stated no where in the patch notes.

i heard it on the den from the bald guy .


"No longer Embraces Revengeful enemy heroes"
Yes. And goki's worth in a team fight was never hinged on that factor. It doesn't impact him greatly and removes a general frustrating interaction with his kit. Which is what most of his rework does.

too bad you couldn't defend well here , he is now trash and his friends can trolls him now

'' it's not a great impact '' what a joke is that ?



Demon's embrace post rework is basically predators mercy but without needing to proc an effect to do it. Allowing it to be done from neutral in this state would have been borderline broken. The soft feint version was the exact same version as the neutral version. So saying it's "the weaker version" isn't even a thing.


the exact same ??? you are trolling me aren't ya ?



No hero should have the ability to OHK ever. The only time this ever landed was if your opponent was literally distracted and you came from off screen


that was so much fun to me and now it's gone

and you want me to be happy about it , it does not work that way .


"No longer drains the target's stamina"
Which doesn't help and never helped goki to begin with.

you are being bias here without any logical argument .


"Demon Embrace damage and healing nerfed by 40%"
Yes and in return he is able to get it more often and not receive a penalty for whiffing one. Fair trade.

i prefer high risk high reward , not bad functionality with bad reward .



"Demon Embrace can now be interrupted by friends or enemies"
Which makes sense because it's directly comparable to predators mercy now. And they changed the animation anyway. Meaning you don't hold them on your back nearly as long as you used to. So in reality it's not a big nerf. If timed properly with allies you can still land more than one heavy after goki gets his damage in.


my friends can no longer smash the target with me and you say '' it's not a big nerf ''

your poor response proves you are either bias or trolling .



You liked aspects of a character and now there gone. it sucks.

happened a lot in league of legends , and now i don't play with those toys anymore , same will be here

truly sad .


I LOVED getting my 65 damage cutscene on every parry with centurion. That doesn't mean it should have stayed around. You need to understand that.

that wasn't broken

you needed a wall behind the target in order to make that strong combo .

Sneakly20
01-26-2019, 05:58 AM
MrB3NX, the points made above by raime were correct. Alright a bit goki was lost that made him who he was, but these changes are healthier. This position of yours shows more your experience than anything else.

Getting grabbed and being deleted from full health even while in revenge is not healthy for this game whatsoever.

These opinions if yours are yours alone. Most others will agree that this was an amazing change for the fatman and appropriate changes were made to balance him out.

Knight_Raime
01-26-2019, 03:00 PM
welcome mate
they removed the ladder's conflict which kills 95% of the game's fun in my opinion so yeah it is a very bad patch.
i said he's bad because i can tell and i explained a bunch on why he is gonna be bad.
i heard it on the den from the bald guy.
too bad you couldn't defend well here , he is now trash and his friends can trolls him now.
''it's not a great impact '' what a joke is that?
the exact same ??? you are trolling me aren't ya?
that was so much fun to me and now it's gone.
and you want me to be happy about it , it does not work that way.
you are being bias here without any logical argument.
i prefer high risk high reward , not bad functionality with bad reward.
my friends can no longer smash the target with me and you say '' it's not a big nerf ''
your poor response proves you are either bias or trolling.
happened a lot in league of legends , and now i don't play with those toys anymore , same will be here
truly sad.
that wasn't broken
you needed a wall behind the target in order to make that strong combo.


~That's semantics. My point is you're not doing yourself any favors by being hyperbolic. If you want your feedback about Goki to be taken seriously you have to behave better.

~You didn't make any point that makes his new kit factually worse than his old one. your exact verbiage is basically stating YOU think he's bad now because the aspects YOU liked are gone. That perspective and your feelings are both valid. I and some others are taking issue with the fact that you're trying to claim he's factually worse off. Which is not even remotely true.

~Do you remember how far in the den this was mentioned? Because I watched all the way till right before they did the 3 dominion matches live. Then I came back and watched the 3 dominion matches later and I don't recall this ever being mentioned.

~Telling me i'm wrong without proving how doesn't help your case. Goki's presence in 4's was based around his passive armor. It allowed him to do clutch things like eat a bash to get a GB setup for his friends or get a clutch revive on an ally even though there are enemy pikeman threatening him. Him being able to OHK someone during revenge was not a big part of his effectiveness in 4's despite what you're claiming. And people would have received your point better had you pointed out what I just did.

~Again. Saying i'm wrong without saying how isn't doing you any favor. Explain how his soft feint version was different from his neutral version.

~I'm not asking you to be happy. I'm asking you to open your mind to try and understand. Yes it's totally fun to ohk people. That doesn't mean it should stick around. If you really believed in it that much you should be more than capable of writing up a post explaining what it added to the game, what it meant for goki, and how it could have been kept in some fashion without it being as volatile as it was pre rework.

~Again a fluff statement that doesn't dispute my claim. Goki had no OOS pressure. The whole point of having stamina damaging moves is to get someone to OOS so you can pressure them hard for one mistake that could either massively drain their HP pool or actually get them killed. Goki technically has OOS pressure now due to all the mix ups he's gotten. Since a person can't simply roll away from his mix up games this means the stamina drain from his headbutt actually means something. And his headbutt is now more flexible and leads into his mix up loops. But for some reason you're not super happy about this despite caring so much about his ability to drain stamina.

~Old demon embrace was all risk and no reward. You never realistically landed it. Period. So you're just being needlessly dismissive here.

~Repeating yourself doesn't make your answer any more accurate. Allies are still perfectly capable of using your hug to secure extra damage. The ONLY difference here is it has to be a coordinated effort now instead of encouraging mindless spam from his allies or using DE at the wrong time. Which again just goes to speak to you liking old goki due to your poor skill. His old kit directly benefits worse players/terrible play.

~Yes it was. And no, you are thinking of how it has to be now with a parry counter near a wall. Or maybe you're thinking of his old infinite. I'm talking about back before season 5 when parrying was not as it is today. Back then centurion could parry a light and get a pin for his full combo. And parrying a heavy gave him a guard break. Which at best would let him wall splat for his combo. Or at worst centurion would ledge the person. None of that was ever balanced. And the fact that you think other wise speaks volumes.

I'm just not going to reply further. I sympathize with you to a point. People grow to love and get attached to characters. And sometimes that gets taken away due to some changes. However that is where my pity and understanding for you and your situation ends. Goki was one of the very few heros that was unfortunate enough to be handed a kit with very out there mechanics that provoked very volatile interactions. Both passive armor and OHK capability were never ever close to being well designed mechanics and yet they were also the only things propping his kit up from the floor. But that doesn't mean they were good for the game or for him.

The devs not only recognized this but understood that they couldn't rightly keep either in without continuing to have these terrible and frustrating interactions. So rather than trying to find some middle ground and potentially cause more issues they decided to shed the clunk and streamline his kit. Goki lost some identity in the process. Even high tier players can see that. But the difference between them and you is they understand it was the healthy way to go for his kit even if it did cause some bad damage (I.E no current way to handle bashes now.) I'm not asking you to like the new Goki or anything like that. All i'm trying to get you to understand is that these changes needed to happen in order for him to actually be viable in a competitive setting. Which is the devs current goal. At least you're not like me who had those "fun toys" taken away and not been given anything to compensate Centurion. Goki was forgotten in the dust and he finally got his time to shine. Even if you don't like the new Goki let him shine anyway. he deserves it.

Feedmeyourcows2
01-26-2019, 04:48 PM
welcome mate



they removed the ladder's conflict which kills 95% of the game's fun in my opinion so yeah it is a very bad patch .



i said he's bad because i can tell and i explained a bunch on why he is gonna be bad .



i heard it on the den from the bald guy .



too bad you couldn't defend well here , he is now trash and his friends can trolls him now

'' it's not a great impact '' what a joke is that ?



the exact same ??? you are trolling me aren't ya ?



that was so much fun to me and now it's gone

and you want me to be happy about it , it does not work that way .



you are being bias here without any logical argument .



i prefer high risk high reward , not bad functionality with bad reward .



my friends can no longer smash the target with me and you say '' it's not a big nerf ''

your poor response proves you are either bias or trolling .



happened a lot in league of legends , and now i don't play with those toys anymore , same will be here

truly sad .



that wasn't broken

you needed a wall behind the target in order to make that strong combo .


I wasn't planning to jump in until I saw you say "you are being bias here without any logical argument"

And: "your poor response proves you are either bias or trolling ."

I'm sorry but you are THE ONLY ONE HERE who is giving poor responses. That comment was possibly the most hypocritical thing I've read all month

MrB3NX
01-26-2019, 06:30 PM
I wasn't planning to jump in until I saw you say "you are being bias here without any logical argument"

And: "your poor response proves you are either bias or trolling ."

I'm sorry but you are THE ONLY ONE HERE who is giving poor responses. That comment was possibly the most hypocritical thing I've read all month

go criticize him before you criticize me

he said stamina drain does not play any factor

what the hell you wanna me to respond to that crap ?

be fair before you judge blindly .

Goat_of_Vermund
01-26-2019, 06:53 PM
I say it too: stamina drain does not play any factor currently in shugoki, because any competent player can stall shugoki forever. His charged heavy is reactable, he is so slow he can't get anything in at all.

NHLGoldenKnight
01-26-2019, 08:44 PM
Hmm but not in group fights in 4v4?

I am just "hobby " Goki which means I play him for fun sometimes but just looking at changes it seems like he was buffed in 1v1 but nerfed in 4v4.

ChampionRuby50g
01-26-2019, 09:44 PM
As already stated, I was going to leave this until I read this section.


Raime - “No hero should have the ability to OHK ever. The only time this ever landed was if your opponent was literally distracted and you came from off screen”

OP - “that was so much fun to me and now it's gone

and you want me to be happy about it , it does not work that way .”

Raime - "No longer drains the target's stamina"
Which doesn't help and never helped goki to begin with.”

OP - “you are being bias here without any logical argument .”

Dude, you do realise that your argument for keeping the OHK on goki is the most biased and has no logic whatsoever in it? It looks to be your own reason for wanting to keep it was “it was fun”. Like that’s not totally biased. Like that’s got a solid logical backing behind it. Don’t be a hypocrite man. You look like a fool.

Feedmeyourcows2
01-26-2019, 10:50 PM
As already stated, I was going to leave this until I read this section.


Raime - “No hero should have the ability to OHK ever. The only time this ever landed was if your opponent was literally distracted and you came from off screen”

OP - “that was so much fun to me and now it's gone

and you want me to be happy about it , it does not work that way .”

Raime - "No longer drains the target's stamina"
Which doesn't help and never helped goki to begin with.”

OP - “you are being bias here without any logical argument .”

Dude, you do realise that your argument for keeping the OHK on goki is the most biased and has no logic whatsoever in it? It looks to be your own reason for wanting to keep it was “it was fun”. Like that’s not totally biased. Like that’s got a solid logical backing behind it. Don’t be a hypocrite man. You look like a fool.

I already tried, it's completely useless

MrB3NX
01-27-2019, 04:56 AM
As already stated, I was going to leave this until I read this section.


Raime - “No hero should have the ability to OHK ever. The only time this ever landed was if your opponent was literally distracted and you came from off screen”

OP - “that was so much fun to me and now it's gone

and you want me to be happy about it , it does not work that way .”

Raime - "No longer drains the target's stamina"
Which doesn't help and never helped goki to begin with.”

OP - “you are being bias here without any logical argument .”

Dude, you do realise that your argument for keeping the OHK on goki is the most biased and has no logic whatsoever in it? It looks to be your own reason for wanting to keep it was “it was fun”. Like that’s not totally biased. Like that’s got a solid logical backing behind it. Don’t be a hypocrite man. You look like a fool.

yes it was fun

no sense to remove it since it rarely happens because it requires a lot to trigger properly

you should remove or adjust what breaks the balance , why would you go after something that does not put any threat on the game's balance

isn't this a logical argument ?

i have no problem to explain more , but me saying the fun is gone is more than enough

i won't play strong characters but boring , i never do that .

Feedmeyourcows2
01-27-2019, 11:16 AM
yes it was fun

no sense to remove it since it rarely happens because it requires a lot to trigger properly

you should remove or adjust what breaks the balance , why would you go after something that does not put any threat on the game's balance

isn't this logical argument ?

i have no problem to explain more , but me saying the fun is gone is more than enough

i won't play strong characters but boring , i never do that .

When it comes down to it... SHOUGOKIS DO BREAK BALANCE.

Are you telling me it isn't broken when an attack can drain ALL of your health and kill you in a single hit? When you have a full team of shogokis it's only 'fun' for the people playing the shogokis because of the spammable ****ing demon's embrace.

It shouldn't be game over when a shougoki throws you into a wall when he is on low HP.

MrB3NX
01-27-2019, 11:32 AM
When it comes down to it... SHOUGOKIS DO BREAK BALANCE.

Are you telling me it isn't broken when an attack can drain ALL of your health and kill you in a single hit? When you have a full team of shogokis it's only 'fun' for the people playing the shogokis because of the spammable ****ing demon's embrace.

It shouldn't be game over when a shougoki throws you into a wall when he is on low HP.

as i said the K.O cannot occur commonly

you should not let him break your guard , it is your fault if he does

second he needs a wall and well directed throw in order to make it happen .

Goat_of_Vermund
01-27-2019, 01:05 PM
The current shugoki is insanely weak and at the same time, boring to fight.
In a fighting game, every hero should have about equal chance to win. If we compare shugoki to a chess set, he has no bishops, but for them, he gets two dices with the ability to roll before losing, winning the game if 12 was rolled. Since he has insane weakness without the bishop, all comes down to the diceroll against every competent opponent. And you see, there is no big chance here, less than 9%, but even that is far too much in an incompetent player's hands. Luck has no place here, or at least little. If my light startup is caught by an accidental guardbreak, that is bad luck, I might eat 40 damage for it, it only costs the game if it was close. Losing to a complete noob turtle from full hp after I spent two minutes peeling off the armor and hp just because I was once caught by a gb has no place in a skill based game, even if it barely happens. 25 damage and the same heal is completely fine for that, and now you can land it in neutral without losing on whiff, and you don't need a wall now.
Some people enjoyed the broken characters, the bugs like warden instakill on any gbs, or even outright cheating. It doesn't matter, it is not right. Having a move that might save the player from his lack of skills completely is wrong.

Feedmeyourcows2
01-27-2019, 04:58 PM
as i said the K.O cannot occur commonly

you should not let him break your guard , it is your fault if he does

second he needs a wall and well directed throw in order to make it happen .

Just because it 'cannot occur normally' doesn't make it any less cancerous.

Feedmeyourcows2
01-27-2019, 04:59 PM
as i said the K.O cannot occur commonly

you should not let him break your guard , it is your fault if he does

second he needs a wall and well directed throw in order to make it happen .

Just because it 'cannot occur normally' doesn't make it any less cancerous. Sorta hard to deal with a shougoki when you are being ganked by 3 of them who continuously hug you one after another.

MrB3NX
01-27-2019, 08:17 PM
Having a move that might save the player from his lack of skills completely is wrong.

You assume it does not require skill

but only Shugoki veterans knows exactly how hard it is to set the right timing , calculate the target's movement and location and analyze how distracted the target is in order to avoid the risk which highly cause your own demise .

it is a high risk for a high reward based on 100% skillful mentality

and it's not broken because you will desperately need your mates to set the trap and wish they don't mess up .

Goat_of_Vermund
01-27-2019, 08:27 PM
Go to a wall, block what you can, spam guardbreaks. I am not a veteran shugoki, but literally that's it, you will either be lucky or not. You will probably be countered and eventually killed, but you might win just because your opponent does not counter once, while you lost 140 hp. Hardly fair. Not better than ledging, and most people with skill hate that too.

In teamfight, it was still either useless or broken. It also doesn't take skill. Just block, wait for a moment when the target doesn't paying attention. It is also a low skill move there, you take the teamfight's outcome on your end, and make the 5-10 mistakes both party needs into just one.

ChampionRuby50g
01-27-2019, 10:57 PM
Jesus Christ man, in no world ever is a One Hit Kill mechanic healthy. It goes against the fundamental aspects of the game. If Shugoki has a OHK, why can’t Warden? Or LB, or Shaman?
So you are right, you should remove what breaks the balance, as the One Hit kill mechanic clearly does by bypassing an opponents skill and killing them instantly if they made one mistake. That’s not balanced. Why do you think Cents cutscene got so much hate? Because it nearly kills you if you make one mistake. It wasn’t balanced and got rightly nerfed. Just like Shugokis hug. It is not skillfull to nearly die and then just wait out of sight while your enemy is been ganked then coming in to hug them and instantly kill them. It’s not skillfull to have an opponent decimate you all fight then you kill them instantly because they stuffed one dodge up and you refused to fight anywhere else other than next to a wall and just prayed for him to throw an attack so you can GB him for free due to Super Armor then insta-kill him. How is that skill? A child could do that. How is it balanced to reward a player whose been doing badly with a one hit kill option?

MrB3NX
01-28-2019, 04:45 AM
Jesus Christ man, in no world ever is a One Hit Kill mechanic healthy. It goes against the fundamental aspects of the game. If Shugoki has a OHK, why can’t Warden? Or LB, or Shaman?
So you are right, you should remove what breaks the balance, as the One Hit kill mechanic clearly does by bypassing an opponents skill and killing them instantly if they made one mistake. That’s not balanced. Why do you think Cents cutscene got so much hate? Because it nearly kills you if you make one mistake. It wasn’t balanced and got rightly nerfed. Just like Shugokis hug. It is not skillfull to nearly die and then just wait out of sight while your enemy is been ganked then coming in to hug them and instantly kill them. It’s not skillfull to have an opponent decimate you all fight then you kill them instantly because they stuffed one dodge up and you refused to fight anywhere else other than next to a wall and just prayed for him to throw an attack so you can GB him for free due to Super Armor then insta-kill him. How is that skill? A child could do that. How is it balanced to reward a player whose been doing badly with a one hit kill option?

you guys don't get it

players been complaining about Shugoki being a C tier hero ( not being picked like others , low win rate )

half month ago everyone agreed that Shugoki must be buffed to fix his issues with the majority of players

so we were expecting some good buffs to make him more useful and acceptable

and then we got surprised by the rework nerfing Shugoki to the ground and then given some buffs that we hoped to see

the hero was already weak full of flaws which means nerfing him does not make any sense and that's exactly what Ubisoft did and made me pretty angry because that was my main and i have all the right to be upset about it considering the very tiresome grinding

myself and other Shugoki mains all we wanted is to receive the new buffs while keeping the hero's identity with his special original features because they are unique and irreplaceable for any price

sucks we didn't get what we wanted

some guy replied to me and said that would break the game , i don't think so because we will need much more than that to break the game .

Inzzane_79
01-28-2019, 09:28 AM
you guys don't get it

players been complaining about Shugoki being a C tier hero ( not being picked like others , low win rate )

half month ago everyone agreed that Shugoki must be buffed to fix his issues with the majority of players

so we were expecting some good buffs to make him more useful and acceptable

and then we got surprised by the rework nerfing Shugoki to the ground and then given some buffs that we hoped to see

the hero was already weak full of flaws which means nerfing him does not make any sense and that's exactly what Ubisoft did and made me pretty angry because that was my main and i have all the right to be upset about it considering the very tiresome grinding

myself and other Shugoki mains all we wanted is to receive the new buffs while keeping the hero's identity with his special original features because they are unique and irreplaceable for any price

sucks we didn't get what we wanted

some guy replied to me and said that would break the game , i don't think so because we will need much more than that to break the game .

Sorry to say but after reading this whole thread I have to say that the only one here who is not getting it is you

I talked to some friends about the patch notes and one of my friends is a Shugoki main forever. He is looking forward to that patch and he said he is happy that he can land more DEs now and don´t have to rely on the stupidity of his opponent to win a fight.

You seem to be so mad about the DE change that you are totally blind about the fact that this move will be in a very good stage after the patch and that it was/is in a horrible stage at the moment. If you don´t understand that a OHK move in a fighting game has no right to exist then I don´t know what to say. You can tell me all day that you need skill to set that up I will never believe you because that move was never a skill based move, it was a 99% luck move.

How about you wait for the patch and play the new Shugoki before throwing the towel, you might be happy with it after actually playing

MrB3NX
01-28-2019, 11:15 AM
Sorry to say but after reading this whole thread I have to say that the only one here who is not getting it is you

I talked to some friends about the patch notes and one of my friends is a Shugoki main forever. He is looking forward to that patch and he said he is happy that he can land more DEs now and don´t have to rely on the stupidity of his opponent to win a fight.

You seem to be so mad about the DE change that you are totally blind about the fact that this move will be in a very good stage after the patch and that it was/is in a horrible stage at the moment. If you don´t understand that a OHK move in a fighting game has no right to exist then I don´t know what to say. You can tell me all day that you need skill to set that up I will never believe you because that move was never a skill based move, it was a 99% luck move.

How about you wait for the patch and play the new Shugoki before throwing the towel, you might be happy with it after actually playing

I swear to god i met two Shugoki mains other than myself who are very upset from the nerfs

just because everyone was happy after the den , it does not mean we should deceive ourselves and pretend we like it too

though I do respect your friend's opinion , i can't say the old Shugoki was fine all the way but come on the new one disappointed me and i'm not shy to say it .

rottmeister
01-28-2019, 11:51 AM
Just wait before you're completely burying Shugoki's rework. Try him out when Season 9 rolls by, get used to 'the new Shugoki' then come back to the forum to say your thoughts on him.

Klingentaenz3r
01-28-2019, 01:46 PM
Shugoki can of course still hug the commander/guardian and what so ever. What was said on the den was they had to apply different kinds of rules for the commander and guardians in terms of the OHKO demon embrace. That is damage related - nothing else and it's gone now - so less special rules to apply = happy devs. Furthermore demon's embrace should bounce off on revenge activation. That is an old topic, we even had it in the game for a while. Now with the quicker access to an embrace plus the loss of the health penalty on a miss AND the loss of increased damage after the removal of his passive armor it might get a little bit more fair in that regard. Shugoki getting stamina back is also huge.

He still can easy peasily hug people in revenge mode and disable them. You have watched the stream then you should have kept your eye out closely to the footage when they actually played some 4v4s and how that turned out.

I am a rep 20 Shugoki and I am absolutely not disappointed with what I could witness on the stream and what I read later on in the patch notes. Everything is reasonable and well explain imo. The only thing that might turn out problematic is his reactable headbutt as this is still somewhat a center piece of his kit and if it is too consistently evaded like cents jab then it will eventually be the restraining point of shugoki's kit.

For those who don't know: blinding the opponent was mentioned to be a huge deal in order to have the heavy softfeint into demons embrace or hard feint into gb to be more believable. But we would have to see how it goes. And it is not too worrysome since this could be easily tweaked with a couple of numbers changed.

Star.Princess
01-28-2019, 10:10 PM
Hello guys ,

I'm rep 16 Shoguki and i felt devastated when i red the patch for the most waited rework

Demon Embrace is now trash

Headbutts are now trash

Feats and passives are now trash

the hero himself is worse than ever with max hp nerfed

all of these heart breaking nerfs are the cost to make him slightly more quicker and variant plus the ability to feint ?

are you serious ?

i'm totally shocked and in disbelieve

shattered and broken while watching Stefan preaches with a smile

what have you done to my precious efforts that i've worked and paid for my main

I PREFER TO BECOME A TURTLE AND GETS PARRIED WHENEVER I ATTACK RATHER THAN BEING A 500 POUNDS OF PURE BREATHING GARBAGE WHO CAN'T FIGHT NOR ENTERTAIN !!!

to tell the truth , I should not be disappointed since i'm wasting my time for a disappointment named Ubisoft .

.


OLD SHUGOKI:
Very bad in team fights (real team fights with high level players, not drunken brawl).
Can't stand against 2 enemies, because hyper armor and no 50/50.
Can't stand against 1 opponent, because no openers and 50/50.
Very fat and annoying, bacause 160hp and hyper armor.
Passive hyper-armor cause more harm the good, not even because additional damage, but because 2 heavies in each recovery, even execution.
Absolutely stupid and annoying revenge interruption with Demon's Embrace which automatically kills opponent if a teammate is near.

NEW SHUGOKI:
Near mandatory in teamfights, because he doesn't care about attacking enemy, 500ms hyper-armor light will shut down any scum who trying to attack his friends.
Very good unblockables which can be feinted in unblockable state, which that make enemies run when he turns on revenge.
Very good in duel, because nothing opens opponent better than 60dmg feintable unblockable.
Decent ganks with headbutt and Demon's Embrace. Demon't Embrace isn't guaranteed death against Goki with m8, but not because Shugo is weak, but because he is merciful demon who gives enemy second chance.

Fast teammates resurrection, good control, big useful damage, high survivability with "Rock Steady" and "Hard to Kill" feats, perk for 10% resistance on point and shield after revenge, ganks with headbutt and Demon's Embrace. He is death machine now.

MrB3NX
01-29-2019, 04:55 AM
Hmm but not in group fights in 4v4?

I am just "hobby " Goki which means I play him for fun sometimes but just looking at changes it seems like he was buffed in 1v1 but nerfed in 4v4.

I agree with you sir

wish if other members were fair like you

no deny the new one is better in duels

but unfortunately i live my whole life in 4vs4

i don't play duels unless it's an order .

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this is my last response in this thread

thank you guys for your participation .

Goat_of_Vermund
01-29-2019, 02:07 PM
I am not sure if the new shugoki is weaker in 4v4. Sure, his role as hug/headbutt support heavy is far weaker, but he is actually more tanky with the hp loss on missed hugs and the extra damage taken while armor off gone. His revenge is far more threatening than it was, he has more chance to hold off ganks with faster attacks and win 1v1s if left guarding something.
With a kit this powerful compared to the former, some feats play a bigger role. Rock steady is a powerful feat, punch through will always force reactions, and with this buff, staggering blow will also be much more powerful, you will have a more realistic chance to land heavies and hit your targets to the ground (which might cause more guaranteed hits from team mates, possibly an as deadly stun as the hug without the drawbacks, and it will also lock the commander).

And I don't think this change makes him unoriginal, he clearly feels the physically strongest character now.