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NinjaRonin85
01-24-2019, 10:39 PM
"We won't be making changes to raider or noboshi as they have a high rating in 4vs4"

Works on vortiger giving him moves and feats that basicly counters everything raider had going for him.

Don't get me wrong I like vortiger but it feels like my main raider just got indirectly nerfed in 4vs4 modes.

Raider is the only hero that keeps me coming back to this game and he is so bad vs most of the new heroes now, I mean ubisoft if you are reading this, you reworked pk when she was one of the strongest heroes, messed it up badly now she needs looking at again before my raider.

With this new vortiger I might as Well just stop playing raider and I'm sure it will feel the same for a lot of other heroes too.

Szalej.
01-24-2019, 11:01 PM
Nobu main here. I feel your pain bro. 31 january patch is the last chance for me before i borrow this game

rottmeister
01-25-2019, 01:45 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong but Raider is the only non dlc hero to not have gotten a rework or hero update (and isn't confirmed to get one). I'm sure the devs will give him some love in the upcoming seasons. It's confirmed that Lawbringer will receive a rework soon, so that leaves Raider and other underperforming heroes. Imo the characters that still need reworks (apart from the confirmed ones) are; Raider, Nobushi, Cent, Aramusha, Nuxia, Orochi and maybe Gladiator. I'd like to see Nuxia and Orochi be less dependent of spam, Aramusha needs a COMPLETE rework imo, you're free to disagree. Nobushi shouldn't have to rely solely on HS and Cent should get some minor tweaks (feintable zone etc). Not sure about Glad but saw a thread about him not too long ago. No idea how Raider could be changed for the better, probably needs a fairly big rework (like kensei).

BlowHard74728
01-25-2019, 01:49 AM
I just love how they said in the patch notes Shugoki's lights are now 500ms from 600ms because they were parried too often.

With this reasoning where the hell are Nobushi's 500ms lights?

Szalej.
01-25-2019, 02:00 AM
Even Nobushi 500 ms lights are so telegraphed its always parried if you didnt waste your entire stamina for feints first lel

pure_energist
01-25-2019, 02:27 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong but Raider is the only non dlc hero to not have gotten a rework or hero update (and isn't confirmed to get one). I'm sure the devs will give him some love in the upcoming seasons. It's confirmed that Lawbringer will receive a rework soon, so that leaves Raider and other underperforming heroes. Imo the characters that still need reworks (apart from the confirmed ones) are; Raider, Nobushi, Cent, Aramusha, Nuxia, Orochi and maybe Gladiator. I'd like to see Nuxia and Orochi be less dependent of spam, Aramusha needs a COMPLETE rework imo, you're free to disagree. Nobushi shouldn't have to rely solely on HS and Cent should get some minor tweaks (feintable zone etc). Not sure about Glad but saw a thread about him not too long ago. No idea how Raider could be changed for the better, probably needs a fairly big rework (like kensei).

Raider actually was one of the first to recieve move updates. His soft feints didnt exist on release.

rottmeister
01-25-2019, 10:30 AM
Raider actually was one of the first to recieve move updates. His soft feints didnt exist on release.

Oh okay. Was this before season 5? I still think the ones I mentioned need a rework. Raider, Nobushi, Aramusha and Cent the most. Lawbringer is getting one so I won't mention him. PK probably needs some damage buffs on her heavies and Warlord needs some love for his full block. Nuxia and Orochi need something to make them not reliable on light spam. Then I'd make the light chains 400 - 500 - 400 ms for Nuxia and Orochi instead 3x 400ms. My reasoning behind this is that the first and last move of a chain remain unreactable but if they were to spam, you'd be able to have an easier time countering in the middle of the chain. This would require Nuxia to do some mindgames with her traps and heavies in the chain.

Siegfried-Z
01-25-2019, 11:10 AM
"We won't be making changes to raider or noboshi as they have a high rating in 4vs4"

Works on vortiger giving him moves and feats that basicly counters everything raider had going for him.

Don't get me wrong I like vortiger but it feels like my main raider just got indirectly nerfed in 4vs4 modes.

Raider is the only hero that keeps me coming back to this game and he is so bad vs most of the new heroes now, I mean ubisoft if you are reading this, you reworked pk when she was one of the strongest heroes, messed it up badly now she needs looking at again before my raider.

With this new vortiger I might as Well just stop playing raider and I'm sure it will feel the same for a lot of other heroes too.

It dépends on which mode you're playing .

If you're a duelist Raider isnt that easy.. not trash but of course not the best.

But devs have work on others char before Raider for a simple reason, Raider is still among the strongest 4v4 picks. And that's a fact.
Not for really good reasons i know, but his stempede and unlock zone are still so insane in 4v4 that he is very strong in these mode.

So tbh i don't really understand why Raider players are always asking a buff. The Guy is average un duel And very good in 4v4 .
He has a basic kit yes, but if you guys play him its mean you like it as it is.

LB, Nobu, Aramusha and even Glad, Cent or WL (even after "rework" for WL) are in a worst spot in my opinion.

SpaceJim12
01-25-2019, 11:27 AM
I could understand Nobu mains. Played her to rep 8, and I relly understand your frustrating. But what's wrong with Raider mains? Or rework itself is what you need? My friend have 9 rep Raider and he is unstopable in any situation. Raider simple and effective. He have all tools he need to rip of people. Maybe only JJ now looks more OP in 4v4 situation.

NinjaRonin85
01-25-2019, 01:49 PM
What's wrong with raider is everyone will be playing vortiger in 4vs4, his all block counters raiders unlock zone easy, his feat removes shield from revenge, so yeah raider will see a very sharp drop in his win rate in 4vs4 after the 31st same with noboshi, devs said they didn't want to work on raider or nobo as they were strong in 4vs4 but then they bring out a hero that counters them.

Szalej.
01-25-2019, 02:00 PM
Nobushi solely on dominion can do nothing. Im getting revenge 4 times in a row yet i cant kill anybody. they just backstep my every attack and turtle. Her offense is non existant. She became a bad joke, and its going even deeper every update. Her strenght in 4 v 4 modes are teammates... Half of the roster does it twice better

Siegfried-Z
01-25-2019, 02:23 PM
What's wrong with raider is everyone will be playing vortiger in 4vs4, his all block counters raiders unlock zone easy, his feat removes shield from revenge, so yeah raider will see a very sharp drop in his win rate in 4vs4 after the 31st same with noboshi, devs said they didn't want to work on raider or nobo as they were strong in 4vs4 but then they bring out a hero that counters them.

This problem is the same for all char as Vortiger full block can deny any type of attacks.
Same for revenge shield, it Apply to every char not only Raider.

So, what's wrong ? If you're just afraid that Raider Unlock zone which does i Don't even know maybe 55dmg gonna be less usefull then yes and i'm glad about it as it is a FH problem for a while with Raider.

BP gonna be a good counter to a lot of char, he is not a Raider specific issue.

Inzzane_79
01-25-2019, 02:28 PM
Nobu main here. I feel your pain bro. 31 january patch is the last chance for me before i borrow this game

You better start digging then, Nobu gets nothing (again) on the 31st

Kargish1
01-25-2019, 05:19 PM
It dépends on which mode you're playing .

If you're a duelist Raider isnt that easy.. not trash but of course not the best.

But devs have work on others char before Raider for a simple reason, Raider is still among the strongest 4v4 picks. And that's a fact.
Not for really good reasons i know, but his stempede and unlock zone are still so insane in 4v4 that he is very strong in these mode.

So tbh i don't really understand why Raider players are always asking a buff. The Guy is average un duel And very good in 4v4 .
He has a basic kit yes, but if you guys play him its mean you like it as it is.

LB, Nobu, Aramusha and even Glad, Cent or WL (even after "rework" for WL) are in a worst spot in my opinion.

Actually, the reason why I've played Raider since I started is because of his badass theme of pure strength and brute force. By all means, I think Raider's kit is fine as it is, but it just needs some extra proporties to make him competeable with the others. Like having HA during enhanced zone or undodgeable stuntab. I'd gladly trade it for less ganking power.

MCBooma16
01-25-2019, 05:46 PM
I'm actually feeling the pain of being a Raider main now. I can't pressure my opponent too well, Raider just struggles to force reactions most of the time.

The zone from neutral takes 50% stam and does just under 30 damage. I do notice that performing a normal heavy and immediatelly hard feinting to zone seems to bait parries or reactions, since it can just be unexpected, but that takes a ton of stam, at least 90%.

The zone is the only pressure tool Raider has, and the rest of the population, even new players, seem to deal with Raider zones well compared to other unblockables.

Shugo got a magnificent rework, perhaps right up there with Kensei's if I'm honest!

Raider can be aggressive, but at this point in the game he simply needs more. I don't want to be one of those people that goes through a list of what Raider needs, but there needs to be something awesome that can at least force better reactions, and provide opponents with a tad more uncertainty when fighting a Raider.

I'm very happy with how Shugoki's rework plays, so I have faith Ubi can make something very epic for a Raider rework in the future. As for now, Lawbringer is next. He needs it more, honestly.

UbiInsulin
01-26-2019, 01:07 AM
Nobushi solely on dominion can do nothing. Im getting revenge 4 times in a row yet i cant kill anybody. they just backstep my every attack and turtle. Her offense is non existant. She became a bad joke, and its going even deeper every update. Her strenght in 4 v 4 modes are teammates... Half of the roster does it twice better

You don't necessarily need to agree with this tier list, but she has been described as "near-mandatory" in Dominion: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bk6y7jw2ujLrjm0Zzbb4aEZUV13gyGoy-IobrkfNgaY/edit#gid=0 .

Here is a guide to playing Nobushi in team modes that says much the same thing: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1H8wZnOnVxM51mG-l2XjgoJFdMaxQFEqATeMZtj-KEw8/edit .

Non-Duel strength has to be a consideration with balance changes, as tons of people play Dominion and any tweaks will have an impact across all modes.

MatsumotoXIII
01-26-2019, 08:57 AM
Ubilnsulin : Its pure sh*t and u know it or u must be stupid ... sry. Ignore main players ... we have own documents from somewhere and lets go make balance ... Nice feedback

Szalej.
01-26-2019, 09:25 AM
You don't necessarily need to agree with this tier list, but she has been described as "near-mandatory" in Dominion: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bk6y7jw2ujLrjm0Zzbb4aEZUV13gyGoy-IobrkfNgaY/edit#gid=0 .

Here is a guide to playing Nobushi in team modes that says much the same thing: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1H8wZnOnVxM51mG-l2XjgoJFdMaxQFEqATeMZtj-KEw8/edit .

Non-Duel strength has to be a consideration with balance changes, as tons of people play Dominion and any tweaks will have an impact across all modes.

Im rep 60 with her, so is lots of other players who struggle same problems, Nobushi is mandatory with her season 1 moveset with 600 ms lights on top of it. Meanwhile theres balerina JJ dancing through battlefield 2 shoting players with feats making his team literally immortal. Ironic

Kargish1
01-26-2019, 04:26 PM
Thought the reason why Nobushi was mandatory was because she was paired with Shaman

Szalej.
01-26-2019, 11:45 PM
Id rather have deleted hidden stance at all just to have my ligts be 500 ms and a stamina buff. She became a stamina simulator, since wu lin release, nobushi became a glass cannon hero with no real abilityies to fight. Her OOS pressure makes me laugh, 2 hits, go back to turtle, meanwhile JJ gets his stamina 100% before mine even start to regen. This game became one big absurd and devs are still asking whats wrong. Im done

Szalej.
01-26-2019, 11:54 PM
Not even ARK devs put so much sperm in community as you do. I mentioned coupld of times im rep 60. my KD is few points away from 2.0. Im the best Nobushi from my community. There are videos, threads, complains and tons of explains why its so unfair and wrong. Yet the best ubisoft can do is sending me a guide how to play my main. Shes at 44% win matrix, same as shugoki, isnt it pretty much self explaining? Even when i watched warriors den 24 january i keept attention at nobushi player. He did well. But his poor moveset let him to do a poke for 12 dmg and faint a heavy. THATS IT. Everything else he did was almost a pure outplay. I cant watch a JJ killing my entire team for two hits when im a zoner, i do thousands of attack to even make my enemy critical health. Seriously, i expected more. Im open up for a talk if someone thinks different

rottmeister
01-27-2019, 12:03 AM
Sadly I don't enjoy playing Nobushi anymore. She feels like a chore now. In 4vs4 I feel like I'm less of a help as Nobu than let's say Shaman or Nuxia. I don't like how dependant she is of Hidden Stance. If I try anything but turtling, I get parried. I'm not the greatest Nobu, but certainly not the worst either. I got her up to rep 17 but I'm just not feeling it anymore. It's really sad that I had to more or less give up on her since she was my first ever main.

The.All.Father
01-27-2019, 12:15 AM
Not even ARK devs put so much sperm in community as you do. I mentioned coupld of times im rep 60. my KD is few points away from 2.0. Im the best Nobushi from my community. There are videos, threads, complains and tons of explains why its so unfair and wrong. Yet the best ubisoft can do is sending me a guide how to play my main. Shes at 44% win matrix, same as shugoki, isnt it pretty much self explaining? Even when i watched warriors den 24 january i keept attention at nobushi player. He did well. But his poor moveset let him to do a poke for 12 dmg and faint a heavy. THATS IT. Everything else he did was almost a pure outplay. I cant watch a JJ killing my entire team for two hits when im a zoner, i do thousands of attack to even make my enemy critical health. Seriously, i expected more. Im open up for a talk if someone thinks different

We were matched in 2v2 yesterday man, u remember? I must say, that i've never seen someone using nobushi in such good way. I was nervous in every round. U were playing on a master level, predicting my moves, but... there was nothing u can do to put pressure on me, and it was sad watching someone talented failed because the balancing team have absolutely no idea what they are doing. There was from the other side some zerk (low rep) which i couldn't do nothing against cause his offence is superior and he negates my every attempt to attack. He was just a noob, yet i had no chances. But yeah GAME IS FCKING BALANCED AND WATCH TUTORIAL U NOOB, LEARN TO PLAY THIS S TIER GODESS.

Szalej.
01-27-2019, 12:55 AM
We were matched in 2v2 yesterday man, u remember? I must say, that i've never seen someone using nobushi in such good way. I was nervous in every round. U were playing on a master level, predicting my moves, but... there was nothing u can do to put pressure on me, and it was sad watching someone talented failed because the balancing team have absolutely no idea what they are doing. There was from the other side some zerk (low rep) which i couldn't do nothing against cause his offence is superior and he negates my every attempt to attack. He was just a noob, yet i had no chances. But yeah GAME IS FCKING BALANCED AND WATCH TUTORIAL U NOOB, LEARN TO PLAY THIS S TIER GODESS.

Thank you. You gave me a hard time. Nobushi sadly is like this. If you dont outplay you enemy youre worth nothing. In that duel i tried t o not be a ***** player, that kind of playstyle rewarded me in going out of stamina after third attack, still having almost full stamina left. Im so damn dissappointed as a dominion player when i face the WU LIN faction, everything they do seem superior to me. Against Tiandi i cant even throw an attasck without it being interrupted by his zone or undodgeable.
You were one of few raiders in my entire life that i had problems with, even with limited moveset you manage to do something well. Sadly we both need to tryhard against rep 1 heroes to win. While half of roster became a braindead spam thats countered on prediction. Its sad raider and nobu need to put so much effort to beat a guy who barely started playing the game. I bet if they deleted stampede, Raider would become close to useless in its current state.

UbiInsulin
01-27-2019, 01:07 AM
Ubilnsulin : Its pure sh*t and u know it or u must be stupid ... sry. Ignore main players ... we have own documents from somewhere and lets go make balance ... Nice feedback

No-one's disagreeing that Nobushi's offense leaves a lot to be desired - nor that she isn't at her best in Duels. She might have the best defense in the game though.

Szalej mentioned they would "rather have deleted hidden stance" just for faster lights and better stamina. I think they were being hyperbolic, but Hidden Stance's strength is worth mentioning when suggesting offense buffs.

Szalej.
01-27-2019, 01:33 AM
No-one's disagreeing that Nobushi's offense leaves a lot to be desired - nor that she isn't at her best in Duels. She might have the best defense in the game though.

Szalej mentioned they would "rather have deleted hidden stance" just for faster lights and better stamina. I think they were being hyperbolic, but Hidden Stance's strength is worth mentioning when suggesting offense buffs.

I went extreme with Hidden Stance deleted. But whats the point of having such defensive option with no offense at all? Its a vege cake. Shugoki lights were changed to 500 ms becayse "they were parried too often". Can you feel nobushi? She has side lights 500 ms, probably easiest to parry in entire game from all heroes. 600 ms top light for 20 damage, 2 less than JJ (500 ms). Her chain lights are 600 ms too. She has no chains Heavy>Light. Not even a light > light>heavy. Her entire mixups is based on feinting and dodges, yet back dodge recovery cancel is deleted. Swift recoil is absolutely useless and drains stamina twice. Her Light / Heavy animations looks absolutely different, anybody who played against her more than once recognize it. Stamina is her biggest issue. Two blocked heavy, third parried consider instant oos. Her only move that guarantee anything (HS>Heavy>kick) leave you at 1% stamina if parried, and stamina regen blocked for 3 seconds. She is a pure lottery no matter how you play. Everything you do, you beg god to not be punished. Why cant we decrease some numbers for nobushi when every rework / new character is based on a pure fast lights or barely reactable bashes? Its basicly just a few number changes. Im crying when i see my enemy OoS when im at half stamina not regenerating at all, hes almost always back to full stamina before mine starts to regen, nobu OoS pressure doesnt exist at all. Her zone was nerfed in speed and damage, for what reason. Kensei still do a Jedi teleport with it at 500 barely reactable damn ms. Her last rework was 4 or 5 nerfs and 2 minor buffs that changed almost nothing. LB was mentioned to get a buff while i see atleast one every match i play, and some of them do really good with tools he got. Nobu? i never see them, if o do its either a dedicated old player or a guy who wanted to test something, never anything deeper.I Noone remember such hero as she is,everybody already switched their mains over her.

Szalej.
01-27-2019, 02:33 AM
For the changes i would like to see to normalize her with current gameplay is:
1. Change All her lights to 500 MS / TOP light 15 dmg, side lights 13 dmg
2. After kick option for top light 20 dmg (instead of bleed followup, its useless if target is already affected by bleed)
3. Hidden stance stamina cost incrased by 10%. no stamina regeneration penalty
4. Incrase stamina capacity by 10%
5. Dont know the exact numbers but her parried attacks cost her too much stamina. Perhaps solved with point 4
6. Iframes / full block during Swirf Recoil animation / canceled on Vipers Retreat use
7. Little iframes on dodge attacks to give it dodge property. Seriously i cant get it in my mind that kensei with heavy armor or JJ with cloth armor has much more dodge property than her, its ridiculus no matter how you look at it.
Minor buffs that would make her gameplay somehow healthy without making her broken. It doesnt requie entire dev team to work on, just few number changes. I was thinking about HS being vulnerable to GB for letting cancel recovery with HS but im not sure its healthy as HS its unique on it

The.All.Father
01-27-2019, 10:07 AM
Thank you. You gave me a hard time. Nobushi sadly is like this. If you dont outplay you enemy youre worth nothing. In that duel i tried t o not be a ***** player, that kind of playstyle rewarded me in going out of stamina after third attack, still having almost full stamina left. Im so damn dissappointed as a dominion player when i face the WU LIN faction, everything they do seem superior to me. Against Tiandi i cant even throw an attasck without it being interrupted by his zone or undodgeable.
You were one of few raiders in my entire life that i had problems with, even with limited moveset you manage to do something well. Sadly we both need to tryhard against rep 1 heroes to win. While half of roster became a braindead spam thats countered on prediction. Its sad raider and nobu need to put so much effort to beat a guy who barely started playing the game. I bet if they deleted stampede, Raider would become close to useless in its current state.

Yeah, it was nice match cause u didn't turtle to death and i tried to not doing it too, and i knew that going into OOS is not a threat if i can block these super fast lights of nobushi ;) It is so weird that when i have half HP and i play against conq, going into OOS is death sentence yet i don't mind trying my most stamina consuming, cause i know that i am relatively safe. And i have 600 ms lights too...

MatsumotoXIII
01-27-2019, 12:14 PM
Ubinsulin pls .. u know Nobu win rate in duels! So where is best defense? Now pls compare numbers Nobu plays in 4v4 with Warden, JJ etc ... ofc Nobu seems like 4v4 god but its for very low players numbers! And again ... BEST DEFENSE on Nobu ... on 4v4 thx HS? Rly? U rly want use HS in gank 3v1? Common ... Nobu have just good clear speed and must only spam heavys when help someone in team. But alone ...
And u rly want make champ balance on numbers from 4v4 game where play premade teams, or ur ganked? OMFG :D
Respect to Szalej.

TL_pser
01-27-2019, 09:53 PM
No-one's disagreeing that Nobushi's offense leaves a lot to be desired - nor that she isn't at her best in Duels. She might have the best defense in the game though.

Szalej mentioned they would "rather have deleted hidden stance" just for faster lights and better stamina. I think they were being hyperbolic, but Hidden Stance's strength is worth mentioning when suggesting offense buffs.

Those words seem reasonable, appreciate that.

How about checking some Nobushi's mysterious mechanics? (that I personally think worth mentioning when discussing whether she at least deserves once more rechecking )
https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1983923-Forgotten-Noobushi?p=13900674&viewfull=1#post13900674

My apologies if that looks offensive.

Rhyza.
01-28-2019, 07:41 AM
Don't the devs only use the top 2% of the playerbase to make their changes? So, what they consider 'mandatory' doesn't actually apply, right?