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View Full Version : If Ubi does not nerf the biggest balance problem i will be done soon



Liduras
01-20-2019, 11:24 PM
The duel and ranked modes have been destroyed for a long time because of one overbuffed move, Warden's shoulder bash. Me and some of my friends are almost done with the game because the only game modes without gank/feat spam are unplayable.

Some Warden mains will probably say "git gud", but there is nothing to learn against Warden's shoulder bash. It can not be dodged on reaction to Warden's movement (proof: https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/98l50b/you_can_not_dodge_on_reaction_to_sb_movement/ ), the partially charged SB has no certain timing and the window to charge the SB is really wide. It is totally unreactable and has almost no stamina cost.

The only thing a Warden player needs to do is to run away or back dodge and spam the SB from long distance. This make the duels a guessing game where skill is not involved. And Warden has a high chance of winning that guessing game. Some people say that Warden has negative matchups and Nobushi and Valkyrie can counter the short range SB, but his long range SB is a skilless guessing game against everyone.

Don't give me that "jUsT rEaD yOuR oPpEnEnT" excuse. The matchmaking system matches random players on the world. You can't know anything about your oppenent in the beggining and you can't read his mind by seeing him doing only a few SB unless he does a simple pattern instead of choosing randomly. It is only guessing, and guessing does not involve skill.

There is also that "tUrTlE mEtA" excuse. Unreactable moves are not a problem. But Warden's SB is not only an anti turtle move, but it is an anti everything move. It can be spammed nonstop with it's almost 0 stamina cost. Even the SB+double light attack combo only costs ~20% stamina (most of the stamina cost is from double light attack). It is also a long range guessing game. Unreactable moves should not have long ranges. Warden players who spam SB does not need to defend against the move sets of the other heroes because they keep their oppenents busy with the SB guessing game spam.

There is always some of those trolls who abuse the OP things and defend them on forums. In this game they are Warden mains. I am tired of arguing with these trolls. In the end they have always got out of arguments and tell us to magically read the minds of Warden players to counter it. If you want to start the same argument for a millionth time just don't waste your time. I won't reply because you will end up with no argument and tell us to use some supernatural powers to read minds anyway, just like in the countless threads in the Reddit and Steam forums.

Me and my friends already stopped playing. Ubi, if you don't want to fix your game, just tell us now so we will immediately uninstall instead of waiting for a fix that will never happen.

Jacques-Le-Coq
01-20-2019, 11:50 PM
Its not the spam thats the problem, its possible to dodge it uncharged and after a full charge, not very hard tbh. The biggest problem with the shoulder charge is that HE CAN CANCEL IT ANY TIME DURING THE CHARGING PROCESS, even after he slightly charges forward he can cancel it. That is a problem, be cause he can always force a reaction, and no matter the reaction, he can counter it and always come out on top. His Shoulder bash needs to have a point during the charge where he has to commit to it, currently its overpowered.

Velentix
01-21-2019, 12:44 AM
The problem is how much of his kit revolves around his bash. An unfortunate way to build any kit. My problem with his bash is the range, and the cancel after he starts it. Nerf the range and remove the post moving cancel, and I think he is left with a strong tool that doesnt make the rest of the game on easy mode.

UbiInsulin
01-21-2019, 03:01 AM
There is always some of those trolls who abuse the OP things and defend them on forums. In this game they are Warden mains. I am tired of arguing with these trolls. In the end they have always got out of arguments and tell us to magically read the minds of Warden players to counter it. If you want to start the same argument for a millionth time just don't waste your time. I won't reply because you will end up with no argument and tell us to use some supernatural powers to read minds anyway, just like in the countless threads in the Reddit and Steam forums.

Me and my friends already stopped playing. Ubi, if you don't want to fix your game, just tell us now so we will immediately uninstall instead of waiting for a fix that will never happen.

I've passed on a ton of feedback on Warden's SB, as you might imagine. It's certainly the topic that gets brought up most in balance discussions about the hero. That being said, I'm reading that second-to-last paragraph as "Anyone who disagrees with me is a troll," which is a bit much. Hopefully we can have room for nuanced discussion here.

Redkey.
01-21-2019, 03:02 AM
They can't fix this coz game is already dead. For years. It's just a life support.

Redkey.
01-21-2019, 03:28 AM
What the hell shoulder? What about timings that do not match the capabilities of the Internet. What about the GB, which should work against the turtles, but works against the killers? What about GB which, the only one in this game, has no direction needed? What about Revenge that turns any fight into idiocy? What about huge dumb tracking from prehistoric console slashers? What about a damage from HeavyBombs without Friendly Fire? What about balancing a characters that looks like they was chosen by spinning the bottle? Etc, etc..... shoulders

Hormly
01-21-2019, 03:47 AM
Sadly at this late point in the game you should either accept it for what it is or move on

Redkey.
01-21-2019, 04:03 AM
Considering that this game started from the p2p servers, and during the year they advised angry players how to meditate - it was late from the very beginning.

EvoX.
01-21-2019, 05:00 AM
I agree. Wardens can basically control fights by staying mid range and using only SB to try and bait out a dodge for the fully charged hit or the cancel into Valiant Breakthrough. Once you start not dodging or trying to close the distance you're hit with the uncharged SB and the whole process starts again.

Warden's optimal game is third in worst design only to Warlord and Shinobi's out of lock spam. Those two are going away soon, so he'll be there...

It's not going to change, I'm sure. To Stefan and his team of chimps, this is probably top level game design.

Goat_of_Vermund
01-21-2019, 07:40 AM
The fully charged shoulderbash should be feintable up until the point the movement starts, not during the movement. In return, he needs some improvements on standard chain attacks, they are all quite useless. A delayable feint on heavies at the very least.

Corentin10111
01-21-2019, 09:57 AM
Since two years (706 days), at least 2 threads about broken moves appeared every week. Which make 202 thread about it, and look at the state of For Honor...
We can apply the same method to the Warden SB and nothing changed in months..
Now, we all should know that they don't care about what we say here..

Liduras
01-21-2019, 10:20 AM
I've passed on a ton of feedback on Warden's SB, as you might imagine. It's certainly the topic that gets brought up most in balance discussions about the hero. That being said, I'm reading that second-to-last paragraph as "Anyone who disagrees with me is a troll," which is a bit much. Hopefully we can have room for nuanced discussion here.

Disagreeing is ok. I can respect real opinions. But when anyone tells me to magically read minds, i consider them as trolls. I also explained why the "turtle meta" is not an excuse.

Warden's SB can stay unreactable and prevent turtle meta even after a massive nerf. As i mentioned before, Warden players do not need to deal with the move sets of the others because they can keep a constant pressure with their long range guessing game spam. Only Shinobi and Warlord can defeat a Warden by using skill. But you decided to nerf them.

A simple way to fix this problem is to give the SB much higher stamina cost. It can be spammed nonstop with almost no stamina cost.

To prevent it from being a very long range guessing game, the range of uncharged and partially charged SB should be reduced. It should still be longer than the guardbreak range+back dodge range.

Siegfried-Z
01-21-2019, 10:26 AM
Disagreeing is ok. I can respect real opinions. But when anyone tells me to magically read minds, i consider them as trolls. I also explained why the "turtle meta" is not an excuse.

Warden's SB can stay unreactable and prevent turtle meta even after a massive nerf. As i mentioned before, Warden players do not need to deal with the move sets of the others because they can keep a constant pressure with their long range guessing game spam. Only Shinobi and Warlord can defeat a Warden by using skill. But you decided to nerf them.

A simple way to fix this problem is to give the SB much higher stamina cost. It can be spammed nonstop with almost no stamina cost.

To prevent it from being a very long range guessing game, the range of uncharged and partially charged SB should be reduced. It should still be longer than the guardbreak range+back dodge range.

I agree Warden SB is an OP moove. And it guaranteed a Top heavy which is ridiculous. At least it should only guaranteed a side one.

But man so many others broken things currently :
-Warden SB
-Conq
-Raider unlock zone
-Zerk offense
-HL Kick Grab
-JJ aoe DMG and feats

Hope Vortiger doesnt bring new cancer mooves.

Soldier_of_Dawn
01-21-2019, 10:38 AM
I don't think the Shoulder Bash being cancellable is really the issue but I feel that the charged Shoulder Bash shouldn't guarantee a 40dmg heavy. The reward is too high for the relatively low risk involved. I'm okay with it wall-splatting and giving a free heavy then.

I agree that it's a guessing game since the SB tactic is really a 50-50. If you dodge too soon you get hit by the charged SB for a guaranteed 40dmg heavy. If you dodge too late you get hit by the short SB for two guaranteed lights.

For Honor needs to return to skill by fading out 50-50s, vortexes, abusive unlock tech, unpunishable characters, OP parry punishes, and nerfing or removing light spam.

Liduras
01-21-2019, 11:09 AM
Since two years (706 days), at least 2 threads about broken moves appeared every week. Which make 202 thread about it, and look at the state of For Honor...
We can apply the same method to the Warden SB and nothing changed in months..
Now, we all should know that they don't care about what we say here..

They are probably looking at this flawed matchup list: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-RxY4U1VdA2Gy76zK7GQr5bB7VGd5SsBzgRnsz8vwh4/htmlview

The part about Warden in that list is probably made assuming that Warden will always fight at close range against Zerker and Conqueror, and long range against Shinobi and Warlord.

For example, they say Conqueror has a positive matchup against Warden because his bash counters Warden's bash. But Warden can simply go out of Conqueror shield bash range by dodging back after a GB and/or unlock running, and spam his guessing game. Conqueror has no move to catch someone running away.

In the list, Gladiator also has a positive matchup against Warden. Because his bash from forward/side dash is faster than SB and his zone is unpunishable. But Warden can easyly get out of his range and spam his guessing game.

Just because that list and the tier list are made by top players in the tournament, they are assumed to be entirely true. The mechanics of this game is not hard to understand. What really seperates the top players from the other high level players is their reaction times, luck and spamming only the most OP moves, not their intelligence. I hope Ubi will understand this and stop balancing entirely based on them.

Redkey.
01-21-2019, 12:25 PM
You talking to people who added Revenge in this kind of a game. And now Each fight ends with it. Jesus Lord, this ******s should fix the turtles... nice try.

Protos_88
01-21-2019, 10:07 PM
for honor is f mess. on ps4 nothnig work fine. i play warden and i get f spam by 70% of enemy characters. and f bug track.... f u and f balance in this game. and wtf with this serwers stability... players pings jump from 30 to 65 all the time. and matching still stuck and ppl turn of game to log out...

UbiInsulin
01-22-2019, 08:00 PM
Disagreeing is ok. I can respect real opinions. But when anyone tells me to magically read minds, i consider them as trolls. I also explained why the "turtle meta" is not an excuse.

Warden's SB can stay unreactable and prevent turtle meta even after a massive nerf. As i mentioned before, Warden players do not need to deal with the move sets of the others because they can keep a constant pressure with their long range guessing game spam. Only Shinobi and Warlord can defeat a Warden by using skill. But you decided to nerf them.

A simple way to fix this problem is to give the SB much higher stamina cost. It can be spammed nonstop with almost no stamina cost.

To prevent it from being a very long range guessing game, the range of uncharged and partially charged SB should be reduced. It should still be longer than the guardbreak range+back dodge range.

Thanks for following up. Appreciate the concrete suggestions you provided, which I can pass to the team.

DavidmOverman92
01-22-2019, 10:20 PM
not to play devils advocate, but how is the shoulder bash cancel any different than lets say orochi's storm rush cancel into guard break? sure it can be cancerous and difficult to counter but I don't fully agree with it being completely broken. However I will say that I stopped playing warden for one reason and one reason only. He does not feel like a swordsman what so ever! I would agree and say that too many warden mains depend solely on his SB and not actually fighting, but then again its not really their faults because of the fact that warden only has his vortex moves and his SB, that's it! I really wish that ubi would do a rework on him and give him a more diverse moveset where he doesn't have to depend on his SB or double light attack every time.

The.All.Father
01-23-2019, 12:07 AM
not to play devils advocate, but how is the shoulder bash cancel any different than lets say orochi's storm rush cancel into guard break? sure it can be cancerous and difficult to counter but I don't fully agree with it being completely broken. However I will say that I stopped playing warden for one reason and one reason only. He does not feel like a swordsman what so ever! I would agree and say that too many warden mains depend solely on his SB and not actually fighting, but then again its not really their faults because of the fact that warden only has his vortex moves and his SB, that's it! I really wish that ubi would do a rework on him and give him a more diverse moveset where he doesn't have to depend on his SB or double light attack every time.

Answer is simple. Storm rush do not force u to make any move - u can block it or even parry it. Warden can totally force reactions, to check your behaviour or in the worst scenario to make his miss go unpunished. Like, he is steering and u HAVE to dance how he tells u. Sometimes it takes time, but he (good warden ofc) will eventually find your code (way of behaving) and use it. He should not have such control. U must put risk if u want some. There should not be safe things in FH.

DavidmOverman92
01-23-2019, 01:40 AM
I mean I do see your point of view and I am by no means an expert player, but I think if you are good with any character you can force someone to react a certain way in FH, not just specifically warden. A lot of people complain about his SB but fail to see that his regular R1 attacks are pretty much awful in comparison to other heroes. In the end I think it takes practice and realize you shouldn't dodge too early from wardens SB. But then again that's just my opinion, but I can relate to the OP.

The.All.Father
01-23-2019, 08:57 AM
I mean I do see your point of view and I am by no means an expert player, but I think if you are good with any character you can force someone to react a certain way in FH, not just specifically warden. A lot of people complain about his SB but fail to see that his regular R1 attacks are pretty much awful in comparison to other heroes. In the end I think it takes practice and realize you shouldn't dodge too early from wardens SB. But then again that's just my opinion, but I can relate to the OP.

"Do not panic when u see the orange". That was what i heard back in the day from Warden players. Now it is not enough. Spamming Warden who is good with SB spam will do a map of your braincells and he will destroy u, using just one tool. He can even cancel this SB in some point when he is in the move. I am not an expert player, but how do u think people will play if they have one superior move and the rest is risky. Why do they should risk ? And we are only talking about situation when u have stam (he has a full control). What about OOS situation ? not as much as with conq, but u are dead (even with full HP). I am really against safe moves in FH. Nothing should be safe. No fcking pathetic lights (due to lag some of them are safe) and ABSOLUTELY no bash.

DavidmOverman92
01-24-2019, 01:51 AM
Hmm I will definitely take everything said into consideration. I don't know if you do play PS4 or not, if you do I would be happy to fight you a few rounds to get an idea of what has been explained. Also I could definitely use the practice no doubt. lol