PDA

View Full Version : Season 8 win matrix



Tyrjo
12-29-2018, 09:56 PM
Finally!

Duel Full Population
https://i.imgur.com/HXIpjYX.jpg


Duel Platinum and Above
https://i.imgur.com/LmBOtcl.jpg


Dominion Full Population
https://i.imgur.com/kxTiNwc.jpg


Dominion top 4%
https://i.imgur.com/3JtbQ7y.jpg


Breach Full Population
https://i.imgur.com/ETADMrJ.jpg


Breach top 4%
https://i.imgur.com/MBg9PAb.jpg

UbiInsulin
12-29-2018, 10:13 PM
I don't have an ETA right now. The data-gathering is obviously still going on. :)

NHLGoldenKnight
12-29-2018, 11:58 PM
I am wondering is there going to be same outrage for the Shaolin and other Wu Lin clowns once they get 60% win or more, as was for Conq?

ArchDukeInstinct
12-30-2018, 02:57 AM
I am wondering is there going to be same outrage for the Shaolin and other Wu Lin clowns once they get 60% win or more, as was for Conq?

CONC's win rate is actually 70%, d00d. The win rates for season 8 are taking so long to be released because the devs are hiding that 80% win rate for CONC.

The devs need to immediately remove shield bash and his 500ms light infinite chain and maybe then CONC would only drop from a 90% win rate to only 60%.

Sneakly20
12-30-2018, 06:01 PM
CONC's win rate is actually 70%, d00d. The win rates for season 8 are taking so long to be released because the devs are hiding that 80% win rate for CONC.

The devs need to immediately remove shield bash and his 500ms light infinite chain and maybe then CONC would only drop from a 90% win rate to only 60%.

Conq needs changes. Nerfs won’t help him. In all honesty Arch I think JJ stole conqs thunder right now. Maybe the flame war will pick back up when the Wu Lin arnt in the spot light.

Siegfried-Z
01-11-2019, 02:23 PM
Conq needs changes. Nerfs won’t help him. In all honesty Arch I think JJ stole conqs thunder right now. Maybe the flame war will pick back up when the Wu Lin arnt in the spot light.

I think Nuxia gonna be arround 50%.
Tiandi and Shaolin both arround 54-55%.
And JJ arround 57%. In duel.

In 4v4 Nuxia gonna be a bit low, the two others just fine, average high.
And JJ gonna stand at the top with more than 60% i think.

Sneakly20
01-11-2019, 03:17 PM
I think Nuxia gonna be arround 50%.
Tiandi and Shaolin both arround 54-55%.
And JJ arround 57%. In duel.

In 4v4 Nuxia gonna be a bit low, the two others just fine, average high.
And JJ gonna stand at the top with more than 60% i think.

Would I be wrong to say that I think Nuxia is borderline 50% or lower?

Tyrjo
01-11-2019, 05:11 PM
Would I be wrong to say that I think Nuxia is borderline 50% or lower?

I think Nuxia is going to be well above 50%.

Siegfried-Z
01-11-2019, 05:53 PM
I think Nuxia is going to be well above 50%.

Maybe in duel like 52-3% but not more i think.
But In 4v4 i would more say she's gonna be arround 48%.

D3dicatedSrv3rz
01-12-2019, 07:49 AM
It must be so hard to collect the top 100/1000 hero's winrates and average them into a couple of charts. Pretty sure other well known vidoegames have leaderboards that keep track of multiple statistics per player that may not update every minute but regularly to see how the gods stack up against each other as well as how contemporaries fair when compared (hell im pretty sure the original runescape even had this kind of stat tracker). The colossal effort it must take to organize winrates by hero wins instead of player wins, sum them, and divide them must be unimaginable.

On a serous note, screw the long paragraphs of fluff detailing what thoughts on the data you have come up with, most of which are probably problems brought up multiple times already by the community as well as slightly altered versions of 'we will continue to look into...' & 'we are still gathering data on...' and just release the data so we can make up our own minds on how ̶̷b̶̷r̶̷o̶̷k̶̷e̶̷n̶̷ ̶̷ balanced the game is.

bannex19
01-12-2019, 11:43 AM
It must be so hard to collect the top 100/1000 hero's winrates and average them into a couple of charts. Pretty sure other well known vidoegames have leaderboards that keep track of multiple statistics per player that may not update every minute but regularly to see how the gods stack up against each other as well as how contemporaries fair when compared (hell im pretty sure the original runescape even had this kind of stat tracker). The colossal effort it must take to organize winrates by hero wins instead of player wins, sum them, and divide them must be unimaginable.

On a serous note, screw the long paragraphs of fluff detailing what thoughts on the data you have come up with, most of which are probably problems brought up multiple times already by the community as well as slightly altered versions of 'we will continue to look into...' & 'we are still gathering data on...' and just release the data so we can make up our own minds on how ̶̷b̶̷r̶̷o̶̷k̶̷e̶̷n̶̷ ̶̷ balanced the game is.

Have you ever read those explanations? It's good that they consider a multitude of possibilities for their data vs knee jerk nerf batting everything that sticks out.

The concept of game balance in terms of this game is a complicated one. High skill players definitely don't play the same game that the average player does and because of that they're stuck in a dichotomy of balancing philosophies that results in either a super steep learning curve or a flat uniform gaming experience.

Tyrjo
01-12-2019, 02:27 PM
Maybe in duel like 52-3% but not more i think.
But In 4v4 i would more say she's gonna be arround 48%.

Yeah, I meant in Duel. I wasn't too clear about that.

MuscleTech12018
01-12-2019, 02:46 PM
I so laugh when i read posts like this "it's so hard to get the data" No it's not.. all you have to do is to watch over them, KDA is ALWAYS recorded in server game :))

D3dicatedSrv3rz
01-12-2019, 07:10 PM
Have you ever read those explanations? It's good that they consider a multitude of possibilities for their data vs knee jerk nerf batting everything that sticks out.

The concept of game balance in terms of this game is a complicated one. High skill players definitely don't play the same game that the average player does and because of that they're stuck in a dichotomy of balancing philosophies that results in either a super steep learning curve or a flat uniform gaming experience.

I have read their explanations. I used to read the patch notes religiously when the cast started getting balanced. The reason i dont care for them much anymore is i dont have much faith in their decision making and reasoning. I am still coming to grips with how they can 'rework' PK and orochi at the same time and not clearly see the disparity in their kits. Adding more chains, chain initiators, a delayed side dodge, a better storm rush, and light spam (light spam which was the only reason PK dominated aside from her mobility which was normalized) and compare it to a soft feint inferior to shamans and slightly better delayed damaged (Delayed damaged i could get behind if it did a decent amount more damage than some heroes deal up front as the payoff).

I do agree that high skill players are in a much different league than a casual like me but their WR stats at least give me an idea of the potential of a hero i chose to main. It may not be directly useful but it adds to my perspective.

One thing i wish i touched on for getting the data out early instead of probably during 9's offseason is to keep it fresh. Though at the continental-drift like speeds this game seems to change for the better at, this game does change and i wish to see the hero standings before any such change alters how i now view it currently. I agree with your second sentence but im pretty sure how they choose to conclude their data is seldom influenced by how the their players feel about it. (otherwise conq wouldnt be on top for the 3rd season in a row)

bannex19
01-12-2019, 07:21 PM
I have read their explanations. I used to read the patch notes religiously when the cast started getting balanced. The reason i dont care for them much anymore is i dont have much faith in their decision making and reasoning. I am still coming to grips with how they can 'rework' PK and orochi at the same time and not clearly see the disparity in their kits. Adding more chains, chain initiators, a delayed side dodge, a better storm rush, and light spam (light spam which was the only reason PK dominated aside from her mobility which was normalized) and compare it to a soft feint inferior to shamans and slightly better delayed damaged (Delayed damaged i could get behind if it did a decent amount more damage than some heroes deal up front as the payoff).

I do agree that high skill players are in a much different league than a casual like me but their WR stats at least give me an idea of the potential of a hero i chose to main. It may not be directly useful but it adds to my perspective.

One thing i wish i touched on for getting the data out early instead of probably during 9's offseason is to keep it fresh. Though at the continental-drift like speeds this game seems to change for the better at, this game does change and i wish to see the hero standings before any such change alters how i now view it currently. I agree with your second sentence but im pretty sure how they choose to conclude their data is seldom influenced by how the their players feel about it. (otherwise conq wouldnt be on top for the 3rd season in a row)

Let's be honest the PK and orochi reworks weren't reworks, they shouldn't have even called them that. I also should say that I am no fan of their approach to "balance" in this game. I was just saying that the discussion of the data was at least interesting and it shows that they're at least methodical but it sounds like you pretty much agree.

I think as fans of this game we're all sitting in the same bus wondering why the driver keeps walking back to slap us instead of turning away from driving off the cliff.

UbiInsulin
01-12-2019, 08:30 PM
It must be so hard to collect the top 100/1000 hero's winrates and average them into a couple of charts. Pretty sure other well known vidoegames have leaderboards that keep track of multiple statistics per player that may not update every minute but regularly to see how the gods stack up against each other as well as how contemporaries fair when compared (hell im pretty sure the original runescape even had this kind of stat tracker). The colossal effort it must take to organize winrates by hero wins instead of player wins, sum them, and divide them must be unimaginable.


I personally sort of wish we would release the raw data without comment, tbh. The community attributes more importance to the single data set in the blog than it actually has, no matter how many "this isn't the only source of balance changes" warnings we put in the blogs. It's worth noting that they're just trying to use that data as a springboard for a larger discussion.

Lots of the issues players brought up with the last blog's data set were discussed internally after we heard your feedback on it.

bannex19
01-12-2019, 11:12 PM
I personally sort of wish we would release the raw data without comment, tbh. The community attributes more importance to the single data set in the blog than it actually has, no matter how many "this isn't the only source of balance changes" warnings we put in the blogs. It's worth noting that they're just trying to use that data as a springboard for a larger discussion.

Lots of the issues players brought up with the last blog's data set were discussed internally after we heard your feedback on it.

It's not our fault that we don't heed the warning because that's the only source that's really given to us. If you provided (which is what I think the explanations of the data is supposed to be) the other sources and had more transparency with balance then maybe the win charts would lose weight.

As it is those charts are the only real source of data that's given to us. Couple that with lackluster feeling heroes that scrape the bottom and you're left with this community, a wildly enthusiastic bunch of head scratchers.

Siegfried-Z
01-13-2019, 12:10 AM
I personally sort of wish we would release the raw data without comment, tbh. The community attributes more importance to the single data set in the blog than it actually has, no matter how many "this isn't the only source of balance changes" warnings we put in the blogs. It's worth noting that they're just trying to use that data as a springboard for a larger discussion.

Lots of the issues players brought up with the last blog's data set were discussed internally after we heard your feedback on it.

Because data is the only factual sources :)

Of course others exist, but anything else than pure Data gonna be subjective.

About how the data is shown, i think it would be far more usefull if firstly we could have PC and Console separate matrix.

And each of them split by rank from Bronze to diamond and then M/GM together in both 1v1 and 4v4.

It would be much more graph but it is easy to split these stats as you want once you get the entire database.

With this, anyone can look at the matrix for his Bracket, for example if a Guy is ranked plat on PC and plays almost only 4v4, he has a much better matrix To look at for him than the overall one.

Because the current stats arent very interesting as they are.

The gaming experience and issues of a silver pc duelist and a Master console 4v4 players are 2 entire différent world.

You should do it ^^

Tundra 793
01-13-2019, 12:33 AM
I personally sort of wish we would release the raw data without comment, tbh.

https://media.giphy.com/media/b7f0X8Okk1uyk/giphy.gif

UbiInsulin
01-13-2019, 01:37 AM
https://media.giphy.com/media/b7f0X8Okk1uyk/giphy.gif

Not my call, lol. I'm not involved in the creation of those blogs, but I can of course let people know that you guys feel this way.

Tundra 793
01-13-2019, 01:57 AM
Not my call, lol. I'm not involved in the creation of those blogs, but I can of course let people know that you guys feel this way.

On a personal level, I'd like you to take a look at Rare (The Sea of Thieves guys), and how they deal with their community. Every week, the executive producer sits in front of a camera, and talks about their updates, plans and other such matters, straight to the players. That's on top of a weekly developer gameplay stream.
They made a blunder some months back with the games inventory management system, and the Lead Designer himself wrote a detailed, explanatory and apologetic forum post to the community explaining why they did what they did, and apologizing for the implementation.

There's so much Roman, Pope and the team at large could learn from the way Rare handles community interactions. Like I've said before, you guys are pretty ace, and everyone on the forums will always defend y'all.
But the whole team could be so much better.

You're infinitely better at it than Playground Games though, holy **** those guys...

The_Sun_Danc3
01-13-2019, 06:09 AM
I think Nuxia gonna be arround 50%.
Tiandi and Shaolin both arround 54-55%.
And JJ arround 57%. In duel.

In 4v4 Nuxia gonna be a bit low, the two others just fine, average high.
And JJ gonna stand at the top with more than 60% i think.

This is the funniest, most uninformed opinion I have ever seen on here.

The_Sun_Danc3
01-13-2019, 06:23 AM
I am still coming to grips with how they can 'rework' PK and orochi at the same time and not clearly see the disparity in their kits. Adding more chains, chain initiators, a delayed side dodge, a better storm rush, and light spam (light spam which was the only reason PK dominated aside from her mobility which was normalized) and compare it to a soft feint inferior to shamans and slightly better delayed damaged (Delayed damaged i could get behind if it did a decent amount more damage than some heroes deal up front as the payoff).

This. I hate that everybody who wants to play peacekeeper (Especially 4v4 cause it’s the only place you actually earn xp) has to play shaman instead because peacekeeper just cannot play play against more than one person at a time (And even there she struggles)
I’m in the top 2% (Maybe 1% now) of peacekeepers worldwide despite the fact I never play her anymore. That’s 100% because I have to be above and beyond my opponents skill to win and it’s just a lot more stressful than fun

Siegfried-Z
01-13-2019, 12:59 PM
This is the funniest, most uninformed opinion I have ever seen on here.

Glad for you.
But just saying that and be disrespectful in a single sentence without any argue or explanations at least to show why doesn't makes you look very smart Teen.

Vakris_One
01-13-2019, 03:22 PM
I personally sort of wish we would release the raw data without comment, tbh. The community attributes more importance to the single data set in the blog than it actually has, no matter how many "this isn't the only source of balance changes" warnings we put in the blogs. It's worth noting that they're just trying to use that data as a springboard for a larger discussion.

Lots of the issues players brought up with the last blog's data set were discussed internally after we heard your feedback on it.
Well honestly what did you expect? When the only data the community is shown is this giant mashup from wildly different target groups all clumped together and presented without the context we need in order to make an informed debate out of it.

What's the problem with letting us see a clearer picture of how all this data is divided between the varied player skill levels and platforms that your video game is played on? You would get much better quality of discussions and feedback from your general community if the data was presented as follows:

- PC only win matrix
- Console only win matrix
- Diamond to Platinum rank only win matrix
- Master to Grandmaster rank only win matrix

- All of the above mashed together so we can see how it looks when it's all thrown together and most importantly so people can see how that skews the data when you don't have the additional context.

^ It's by no means perfect but it's a lot better than just presenting us with the big clump of mashed together data that has no real meaning without the apropriate context from the breakdown of the different data groups.

The matter is entirely in you guy's hands. Do you want a healthier and more productive debate from your community? Then do what I suggested. If you're perfectly happy with the community just waging flame wars and petty bickering over numbers on a screen without proper context then carry on as you've been doing so far with the win matrix.

rottmeister
01-13-2019, 04:24 PM
This is the funniest, most uninformed opinion I have ever seen on here.

Attacking someone over an opinion isn't very nice...

How is it funny or uninformed please do enlighten me.
He made an educated guess, what's to laugh about?
Are you referring to the Wu Lin as OP or the other way around or are you just flat out throwing insults?

Earlier this season the devs had dropped JJ's win% at the time, don't know the exact number but it was somewhere in the 60% range (most likely plat and above).
Since people adapted to the Wu Lin (certainly the top players) they'll likely have a fairly average Win-loss % considering none of them are broken or overpowered (overtuned? perhaps, but not game breaking).

I wouldn't be surprised if Siegfried-Z's guesses were accurate.

D3dicatedSrv3rz
01-14-2019, 12:46 AM
Because data is the only factual sources :)

Of course others exist, but anything else than pure Data gonna be subjective.

About how the data is shown, i think it would be far more usefull if firstly we could have PC and Console separate matrix.

And each of them split by rank from Bronze to diamond and then M/GM together in both 1v1 and 4v4.

It would be much more graph but it is easy to split these stats as you want once you get the entire database.

With this, anyone can look at the matrix for his Bracket, for example if a Guy is ranked plat on PC and plays almost only 4v4, he has a much better matrix To look at for him than the overall one.

Because the current stats arent very interesting as they are.

The gaming experience and issues of a silver pc duelist and a Master console 4v4 players are 2 entire différent world.

You should do it ^^

While i would be interested in having to see a dividation in the data between PC and console it would ultimately be useless unless Ubi decides to balance them different. Although their stance changed on the topic my username draws inspiration from i dont think they will ever have plans for splitting the game in such a fashion. That said i feel a split would be easier for them to tackle problems, no longer attempting to implement 1 solution that would be received 2 different ways

D3dicatedSrv3rz
01-14-2019, 12:49 AM
This is the funniest, most uninformed opinion I have ever seen on here.

Hey, people thought PK was viable after her rework for some reason. Stats like this wouldnt surprise me

The_Sun_Danc3
01-14-2019, 01:23 AM
Glad for you.
But just saying that and be disrespectful in a single sentence without any argue or explanations at least to show why doesn't makes you look very smart Teen.

JJ is easily the lowest in duels, but his 4v4 win rate is the highest. He’s not good but his sweeping attacks with high damage are why he’s good in 4v4 and his feats are probably some of the best for his character style.
Shaolin is easily the best all around. Nuxia is runner up for duels and Tiandi is the worst all around really only being good for his dodge light to light attacks (At least on console).
Anybody who thinks JJ is the best hero out of the Wu Lin is most likely somebody that has a hard time parrying unblockables and their performance shouldn’t be dictating the state of the game because it would end up breaking it.
Jiang Jun and Tiandi are almost tied all around but JJ just inches him out because of his performance in 1vMore fights.

Siegfried-Z
01-14-2019, 02:16 AM
JJ is easily the lowest in duels, but his 4v4 win rate is the highest. He’s not good but his sweeping attacks with high damage are why he’s good in 4v4 and his feats are probably some of the best for his character style.
Shaolin is easily the best all around. Nuxia is runner up for duels and Tiandi is the worst all around really only being good for his dodge light to light attacks (At least on console).
Anybody who thinks JJ is the best hero out of the Wu Lin is most likely somebody that has a hard time parrying unblockables and their performance shouldn’t be dictating the state of the game because it would end up breaking it.
Jiang Jun and Tiandi are almost tied all around but JJ just inches him out because of his performance in 1vMore fights.

So that's only about that ? Let me correct you if i may.

First of all Tiandi isnt in a bad spot and in my opinion is much better than Nuxia.

Shaolin isnt the best all arround. Because first as you said yourself JJ is the best in 4v4 so cant be shaolin ... in 1v1 shaolin is better than jj, yes.

But that doesn't change the fact i belive JJ winrate gonna be higher.

Because the win matrix mix pc and console from plat till grand master all together.
And JJ efficiency only decrease at high level. But they are less players at this level.
Adding To that his light bug animation which put him in a strong advantages for at least 2 or 3 weaks. .

I remember pretty well devs talking about the first Wulin data.. nuxia, shaolin and Tiandi were all arround 55% in duel while JJ was at 62%. Uninformed ? That's the ubi data.

So, you should read correctly before attacking people on their opinion and now on my skills.
I've made my own ubi data prédiction. I didn't say JJ or anyone was the best.
Ubi Win matrix preduction and my own rank opinion are two different things.
If you ask for that, find my opinion below.

1v1
1/Shaolin
2/Tiandi
3/JJ
4/Nuxia

4v4
1/JJ : But, by far
2/Shaolin and Tiandi equals (tiandi has far stronger feats and some great bash from neutral and switching target)
4/Nuxia : just really weak in 4v4

As i play almost only 4v4, in my own experience JJ is the most annoying wulin.

So, please stop free attacking me with some child things about i would be unable To parry UB. . I play since day 1 on both console and pc and have 150reps in the game always ranked with a great KD.

Tyrjo
01-14-2019, 09:44 AM
Well honestly what did you expect? When the only data the community is shown is this giant mashup from wildly different target groups all clumped together and presented without the context we need in order to make an informed debate out of it.

What's the problem with letting us see a clearer picture of how all this data is divided between the varied player skill levels and platforms that your video game is played on? You would get much better quality of discussions and feedback from your general community if the data was presented as follows:

- PC only win matrix
- Console only win matrix
- Diamond to Platinum rank only win matrix
- Master to Grandmaster rank only win matrix

- All of the above mashed together so we can see how it looks when it's all thrown together and most importantly so people can see how that skews the data when you don't have the additional context.

^ It's by no means perfect but it's a lot better than just presenting us with the big clump of mashed together data that has no real meaning without the apropriate context from the breakdown of the different data groups.

The matter is entirely in you guy's hands. Do you want a healthier and more productive debate from your community? Then do what I suggested. If you're perfectly happy with the community just waging flame wars and petty bickering over numbers on a screen without proper context then carry on as you've been doing so far with the win matrix.

I think this would be ideal, but I guess there aren't enough data entries in PC master leagues for that. I'm pretty sure some matchups haven't even occured in that bracket, and some may have only happened once or twice.

Charmzzz
01-14-2019, 10:15 AM
I think this would be ideal, but I guess there aren't enough data entries in PC master leagues for that. I'm pretty sure some matchups haven't even occured in that bracket, and some may have only happened once or twice.

Would be interesting to see which Characters are not even remotely played in PC Master, don't you think?

I'm not playing FH since the Marching Fire release, and I see that things did not change at all in 3 months. Feeling really sad as I really want to play this gem of a game IF I would still believe in the Devs... But they keep showing that they have no clue and are not willing to change their way to do (or dont...) things.

Siegfried-Z
01-14-2019, 11:22 AM
Would be interesting to see which Characters are not even remotely played in PC Master, don't you think?

I'm not playing FH since the Marching Fire release, and I see that things did not change at all in 3 months. Feeling really sad as I really want to play this gem of a game IF I would still believe in the Devs... But they keep showing that they have no clue and are not willing to change their way to do (or dont...) things.

Came back on the dark side Charmz, it's calling you😅😉

Vakris_One
01-14-2019, 05:09 PM
I think this would be ideal, but I guess there aren't enough data entries in PC master leagues for that. I'm pretty sure some matchups haven't even occured in that bracket, and some may have only happened once or twice.
Yes, that was the reason they lowered the data range all the way down to 30% of all players who play ranked. So they could get the competitively abandoned heroes like Shugoki and Aramusha to actually appear on the charts. And that's how we got those two showing up with a 50% win rate, pretty much telling us exactly how casual the lowest data cutoff point for skill level was for those two to end up in the top 6 in Duel.

That's why seperating the data into contextual charts would be better. At Diamond to Platinum you would still have all the heroes represented. Maybe go one lower to Gold if not. At Master to Grandmaster you would obviously get the A to S-tier heroes being overwhelmingly represented with no signs of any hero below a B-tier. That in and of itself will tell us which heroes are so bad in a given mode that they don't even have a pick rate at the more competitive end of the spectrum. It's all valuable data.

Tyrjo
01-28-2019, 08:36 AM
Thursdays Warriors den is going to be perfect to release the data.

Tyrjo
01-31-2019, 07:02 PM
Son, I Am Disappoint

Knight_Raime
01-31-2019, 07:03 PM
Son, I Am Disappoint

me 2

Vakris_One
01-31-2019, 07:06 PM
me 2
Are you really looking forward to them showing us Shugo and Aramusha in the top 5 again because they used 30% of the total playerbase as their "quality" data point?

Knight_Raime
01-31-2019, 07:13 PM
Are you really looking forward to them showing us Shugo and Aramusha in the top 5 again because they used 30% of the total playerbase as their "quality" data point?

I'm more looking for seeing JJ's data. Because people claimed he was OP. And I want to see the justifications people come up with to still stick to that assertion despite data showing him being fine.

Vakris_One
02-01-2019, 12:50 AM
I'm more looking for seeing JJ's data. Because people claimed he was OP. And I want to see the justifications people come up with to still stick to that assertion despite data showing him being fine.
Stefan mentioned back in a previous Den that their data showed JJ at above 60% but I can't recall if it was Duel or only 4v4.

So rest assured this forum will naturally assume the fetal position and go ape dookies at seeing those numbers. The fact that what we're being show is 30% of the entire playerbase diluting the data from the high level and competitive level will go over many a head. As will the fact that JJ had desynced attack animations for near enough the entire season on top of the "having to adapt to a new character" factor.

Siegfried-Z
02-07-2019, 12:37 AM
Tomorrow maybe ?

Tyrjo
02-07-2019, 07:23 AM
Yeah. We hope so.

Klingentaenz3r
02-07-2019, 09:03 AM
Maybe we should start a riot in the chat during the stream if it there's no mentioning :rolleyes:

Siegfried-Z
02-16-2019, 01:10 AM
3 weeks already since S9 start. What about S8 data ? Next den?

ChampionRuby50g
02-16-2019, 01:39 AM
3 weeks already since S9 start. What about S8 data ? Next den?

Probably never at this stage, considering how long they’ve had to work on it with a massive off season and now 3 weeks into the season. I could imagine their may be some massive outliers in balance with some heroes up to 65-70%, and they don’t want to show that to the public. It seriously shouldn’t take this long to make a spreadsheet.

Knight_Raime
02-16-2019, 04:49 AM
Probably never at this stage, considering how long they’ve had to work on it with a massive off season and now 3 weeks into the season. I could imagine their may be some massive outliers in balance with some heroes up to 65-70%, and they don’t want to show that to the public. It seriously shouldn’t take this long to make a spreadsheet.

I cant realistically imagine what data they could possibly want to hide. They extended their pool by a large amount meaning any data they show is basically inaccurate for duels. And 4's has never given anything useful because there is so much factors at play that we are not privey to when they show it off.

It's far more likely that it's just not a high priority.

Vakris_One
02-16-2019, 02:28 PM
Are people really dying to see another giant clump of data without proper context and meaning? A win matrix that jumbles up 30% of the total playerbase from both Console and PC players as well as Gold to Grand Master players all shoved into one big chart without seperating the data sets for the sake of accuracy and clarity.

Tyrjo
02-16-2019, 06:26 PM
Are people really dying to see another giant clump of data without proper context and meaning? A win matrix that jumbles up 30% of the total playerbase from both Console and PC players as well as Gold to Grand Master players all shoved into one big chart without seperating the data sets for the sake of accuracy and clarity.

No, not really. I hope they've learned from last seasons way of displaying the statistics.

pretoastedwaffl
02-16-2019, 06:26 PM
I would really like to see separate data for console and pc. The data collecting does take a really long time tho and I was hoping to see the win matrix like a month ago

Halvtand
02-16-2019, 10:15 PM
I would like to see
1. In separated data from console and PC...
2. Win matrix per hero for all available skill levels (grand master down to bronze), separate for 1v1 and 4v4.
3. Heroes played for all available skill levels, also separate for 1v1 and 4v4.
4. A separate graph for each hero showing both win% and amount played from the lowest to highest skill level, also for 1v1 and 4v4.


That's just what I can think of right now. The winmatrixes as we've seen them so far have given us absolutely nothing.

ArchDukeInstinct
02-16-2019, 10:28 PM
Oh my god. The devs are hiding Conq's 85% win rate again. They moved Pope off of For Honor because he was about to spill the beans. Not to be an alarmist but if we don't buff Prior's bash to have a 500ms miss recovery and do 30 damage RIGHT NOW Conq will be at 95% in no time.

ChampionRuby50g
02-16-2019, 10:36 PM
Was thinking more along the lines of JJ due to wonky animations not syncing up, etc. But whatever floats your weird boat. Not everything revolves around Conc, you know. There are 22 other heroes.

ArchDukeInstinct
02-16-2019, 11:00 PM
Was thinking more along the lines of JJ due to wonky animations not syncing up, etc. But whatever floats your weird boat. Not everything revolves around Conc, you know. There are 22 other heroes.

No need to have another one of your special "Champ Cramps" over a joke, dude.

rottmeister
02-16-2019, 11:11 PM
Oh my god. The devs are hiding Conq's 85% win rate again. They moved Pope off of For Honor because he was about to spill the beans. Not to be an alarmist but if we don't buff Prior's bash to have a 500ms miss recovery and do 30 damage RIGHT NOW Conq will be at 95% in no time.

"How are we going to balance Conq?"
"I have an idea, I'm gettin' me nerf mallet."

*deletes Shugoki*


Now the game is finally balanced ...

pretoastedwaffl
02-16-2019, 11:33 PM
Conqueror has been at the top for a long time now. I don't blame anyone for hating him and his bash

ChampionRuby50g
02-16-2019, 11:57 PM
No need to have another one of your special "Champ Cramps" over a joke, dude.

Just as there’s no need for you to have one of your passive aggressive breakdowns over speculation about stats that may or may not have anything to do with your baby boy Conc.

ArchDukeInstinct
02-17-2019, 12:40 AM
"How are we going to balance Conq?"
"I have an idea, I'm gettin' me nerf mallet."

*deletes Shugoki*


Now the game is finally balanced ...

Exactly. You can't have 90% winrates against characters which no longer exist. The real question now is if it was only Conq left, would he have a 0% win rate because one Conq always loses or a 100% win rate because one Conq always wins?


Just as there’s no need for you to have one of your passive aggressive breakdowns over speculation about stats that may or may not have anything to do with your baby boy Conc.

Yup. That's a Champ Cramp alright.

ChampionRuby50g
02-17-2019, 12:58 AM
Imagine been so weird and insecure you follow people onto threads and make up slang about them, all because of speculation. You must be really bored.

Inb4 "baht you got drunk and imagined me on another thread, hahahaha"

ArchDukeInstinct
02-17-2019, 02:55 AM
Imagine been so weird and insecure you follow people onto threads and make up slang about them, all because of speculation. You must be really bored.

Uhhhhh? First off, I posted on this thread way before you ever did.. Secondly, all I did was post my usual mocking of the conspiracy theory that Anti-Conqs would always put out in mid 2018 because to me it's really hilarious. I didn't mention you at all but somehow you got triggered into having another Champ Cramp anyway.

ChampionRuby50g
02-17-2019, 03:17 AM
Uhhhhh? First off, I posted on this thread way before you ever did.. Secondly, all I did was post my usual mocking of the conspiracy theory that Anti-Conqs would always put out in mid 2018 because to me it's really hilarious. I didn't mention you at all but somehow you got triggered into having another Champ Cramp anyway.

That was just a joke man, no need to break down.

So you just randomly decided to come back into this thread and start raving about Conc stats, despite no one else mentioning anything to do with high stat numbers or Conc at all for at least a month until I, by pure coincidence of course, mentioned high stat numbers a day previously, and then you start your mad rambling about the devs hiding stats after I mention that in my post by pure coincidence again? Yeah, right. Do you usually remember things that happened half a year ago and start laughing about it and feel the need to come onto a thread and share it with everyone?

Jastorm187
02-17-2019, 03:38 AM
Oh my god. The devs are hiding Conq's 85% win rate again. They moved Pope off of For Honor because he was about to spill the beans. Not to be an alarmist but if we don't buff Prior's bash to have a 500ms miss recovery and do 30 damage RIGHT NOW Conq will be at 95% in no time.

Arch, why is it you have to be so toxic and self centered. Go into every thread, no matter what the OP is about and make it about you and Conq and defending conq from "anti-conq" statements that are found no where in the thread. You bring up how butt hurt you are about what other posters have said in other threads into a post that doesnt even mention it...

Get over yourself.

ArchDukeInstinct
02-17-2019, 05:08 AM
So you just randomly decided to come back into this thread and start raving about Conc stats, despite no one else mentioning anything to do with high stat numbers or Conc at all for at least a month until I, by pure coincidence of course, mentioned high stat numbers a day previously, and then you start your mad rambling about the devs hiding stats after I mention that in my post by pure coincidence again?

Well Champ, if my post was all a "passive aggressive breakdown" on you because your post (that I didn't even fully read to be frank) contained a similar idea, then why do I also talk about Pope leaving and add in the bit about Prior?

Have you ever thought that maybe you're just paranoid?


Arch, why is it you have to be so toxic and self centered. Go into every thread, no matter what the OP is about and make it about you and Conq and defending conq from "anti-conq" statements that are found no where in the thread. You bring up how butt hurt you are about what other posters have said in other threads into a post that doesnt even mention it

It is "found in the thread", the thread is literally about when the win rates will be released next. lol

Devils-_-legacy
02-17-2019, 05:27 AM
I would like to see
1. In separated data from console and PC...
2. Win matrix per hero for all available skill levels (grand master down to bronze), separate for 1v1 and 4v4.
3. Heroes played for all available skill levels, also separate for 1v1 and 4v4.
4. A separate graph for each hero showing both win% and amount played from the lowest to highest skill level, also for 1v1 and 4v4.


That's just what I can think of right now. The winmatrixes as we've seen them so far have given us absolutely nothing.
+1

ChampionRuby50g
02-17-2019, 05:41 AM
Well Champ, if my post was all a "passive aggressive breakdown" on you because your post (that I didn't even fully read to be frank) contained a similar idea, then why do I also talk about Pope leaving and add in the bit about Prior?

Have you ever thought that maybe you're just paranoid?

Hahah now you’re just grasping at straws, trying to save face. You literally mentioned Pope leaving because he was going to “spill the beans”, which was obviously a lame attempt at playing it down, same deal with mentioning Prior in relation to your beloved Concs stats. So, nice try, and goodbye. I don’t wanna “cramp your style” anymore. But maybe I already have, the quality of your sledges has dropped dramatically. Everything ok?

That’s sarcasm by the way, in case you struggle too pick that up, just like you have probably been struggling to refrain from correcting Conc to Conq. I know how hard that must be for you after your recent meltdown crying “Anti-Conq!” at another user for that.

Tyrjo
02-17-2019, 10:22 AM
It can't be that hard to write some code and configure it to display the statistics in any way you like. In fact, I think that code already is in place. No online fighting game in the last 10 years hasn't had a system like that.

ArchDukeInstinct
02-17-2019, 10:32 AM
Hahah now you’re just grasping at straws, trying to save face. You literally mentioned Pope leaving because he was going to “spill the beans”, which was obviously a lame attempt at playing it down, same deal with mentioning Prior in relation to your beloved Concs stats. So, nice try, and goodbye. I don’t wanna “cramp your style” anymore. But maybe I already have, the quality of your sledges has dropped dramatically. Everything ok?

Save face on what, Champ? Making you break down in tears and have a fit throughout the entire day with a single post that didn't even mention you? Unless someone slips on your tears and tries to blame me, I don't need to save face on anything.


That’s sarcasm by the way, in case you struggle too pick that up, just like you have probably been struggling to refrain from correcting Conc to Conq. I know how hard that must be for you after your recent meltdown crying “Anti-Conq!” at another user for that.

Yes, Champ, you've brought this nothing burger up a few times already, nobody cared then and nobody cares now. Time to go back to the drawing board, or at least the crayolas and toilet paper you've purported is a drawing board.

pretoastedwaffl
02-17-2019, 02:21 PM
It would be nice to have a thread without the conqueror guy piping up and ruining the thread

Jastorm187
02-17-2019, 07:28 PM
Well Champ, if my post was all a "passive aggressive breakdown" on you because your post (that I didn't even fully read to be frank) contained a similar idea, then why do I also talk about Pope leaving and add in the bit about Prior?

Have you ever thought that maybe you're just paranoid?



It is "found in the thread", the thread is literally about when the win rates will be released next. lol

The thread is about when win rates will be released... No one mentioned conq, or his win rates... You just came in crying about someone said 3 seasons ago all butt hurt that someone might have a problem with conq. All of that was brought in by you with no instigation. Ive watched you do this on otger threads, cone charging in and make the thread about you and conq and how slighted you feel by others opinions of conq and you take it so personally. Worse, you cut up peoples commenta and only take one sentence and blow it out of proportion.

Learn to be constructive and on topic or GTFO.

ChampionRuby50g
02-17-2019, 09:16 PM
The thread is about when win rates will be released... No one mentioned conq, or his win rates... You just came in crying about someone said 3 seasons ago all butt hurt that someone might have a problem with conq. All of that was brought in by you with no instigation. Ive watched you do this on otger threads, cone charging in and make the thread about you and conq and how slighted you feel by others opinions of conq and you take it so personally. Worse, you cut up peoples commenta and only take one sentence and blow it out of proportion.

Learn to be constructive and on topic or GTFO.

Careful man, you’re now officially an Anti-Conq, and apparently it’s my fault because you slipped on my apparent tears according to “the conqueror guy”.



It would be nice to have a thread without the conqueror guy piping up and ruining the thread

Hahahaha this made me laugh.

Vendelkin
02-17-2019, 09:38 PM
It can't be that hard to write some code and configure it to display the statistics in any way you like. In fact, I think that code already is in place. No online fighting game in the last 10 years hasn't had a system like that.

So much this. Straight numbers from variables is the easiest coding game to play. If you can build a video game you can automate statistics there is no reason it shouldnt be realeased the day the season ends technologically speaking.

Vendelkin
02-17-2019, 09:43 PM
Save face on what, Champ? Making you break down in tears and have a fit throughout the entire day with a single post that didn't even mention you? Unless someone slips on your tears and tries to blame me, I don't need to save face on anything.

Yes, Champ, you've brought this nothing burger up a few times already, nobody cared then and nobody cares now. Time to go back to the drawing board, or at least the crayolas and toilet paper you've purported is a drawing board.

You realize this whole post has no logic in it at all and is just you being assinine right arch?
Also you have a very hypocritical way calling out champ for posting when no one asked him too. Literally no one here asked for your thoughts on conq statistics.

ChampionRuby50g
02-17-2019, 09:52 PM
Let alone stats and what happened mid last year when this topic was about Season 8 stats. 🤔

rottmeister
02-17-2019, 10:10 PM
If I may ask, what's the deal between you 2 anyway? I've noticed this little 'rivalry' too. A lot of namecalling, trolling and passive aggressiveness. Is there any reason you guys don't like each other? (Please don't answer in a way that could spark even more hate) Is there any way to resolve the heat between the 2 of you, talk it out privately or move on? I don't think anyone likes seeing these mini-wars you're having. I'm not picking sides, certainly since I don't know anything about it. You don't have to answer if it's personal.

ChampionRuby50g
02-17-2019, 10:37 PM
I just don’t like his attitude, going way back. The way he talks down on multiple other forum members, constant passive aggressiveness even when it’s uncalled for, mockery of users and even their English and spelling at times despite this forum been home to many cultures. All in all, I just find him to be a very unpleasant person. I don’t care what people say about me, but when I see someone undeserving off it copping a spray over something trivial I can’t say nothing.

As others have said in this thread too, he’s just toxic and everything ends up somehow relating back to him, Conc and his so called Anti Concs.

Tundra 793
02-17-2019, 10:45 PM
That the Ubi guys haven't discovered this little misadventure is a miracle, but I'd highly recommend both of y'all chill, and put each other on ignore.

Someone's gonna end up banned if this thing is just allowed to keep spinning, and I'm sure none of us want that.

ArchDukeInstinct
02-18-2019, 05:03 AM
If I may ask, what's the deal between you 2 anyway? I've noticed this little 'rivalry' too. A lot of namecalling, trolling and passive aggressiveness. Is there any reason you guys don't like each other?

Well I don't like Champ because he always interjects himself into threads for literally no other reason than to be contradictory to whatever position I am arguing for. If you were to look through every argument we have had, you will see that Champ initiated them every single time except once and generally clings onto one minor point instead of any main point of argument.

Now Champ is going to tell you that he's only reacting to what I do, but in fact, I don't even need to be in a thread at all for Champ to go on a tangent about me about something I never even said, as you will see here: https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1985555-Ubisoft-Why-do-you-refuse-to-learn-your-lesson-!?p=13912800&viewfull=1#post13912800


constant passive aggressiveness even when it’s uncalled for

Passive aggressive like name dropping people who aren't even in the thread?


It would be nice to have a thread without the conqueror guy piping up and ruining the thread

I know, man, it's just terrible. Imagine the great ideas you could have brought to this thread if it wasn't derailed. Great ideas like removing the entire Wu Lin faction from the game because you personally can't fight them for instance: https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1998389-How-to-solve-the-wu-lin-problem?p=13958045


The thread is about when win rates will be released... No one mentioned conq, or his win rates...

Uhhh, okay then. I'm sorry I made a joke about win rates in a thread about win rates. lol


You realize this whole post has no logic in it at all and is just you being assinine right arch?
Also you have a very hypocritical way calling out champ for posting when no one asked him too. Literally no one here asked for your thoughts on conq statistics.

Oh Champ can post whatever he wants, I'm just letting him know that it's not a very effective point and that he should go back to the drawing board.

ChampionRuby50g
02-18-2019, 05:21 AM
Imagine been so triggered by the people saying you are toxic, you go through 2 of their post history’s to make an essay on it. Must be nice to have that much time on your hands, and you must be really bored. Do you not work or study?

On the thread which I messed up, already said that was my bad and a mistake. At least I have the decency to put my hand up and admit it when I’m clearly in the wrong, unlike someone else who just takes one isolated incident and uses it as an example out of many and makes it seem like it’s a common thing, which it clearly isn’t.

ArchDukeInstinct
02-18-2019, 05:42 AM
Imagine been so triggered by the people saying you are toxic, you go through 2 of their post history’s to make an essay on it. Must be nice to have that much time on your hands, and you must be really bored. Do you not work or study?

Champ, it's Sunday night for me!!! HAHAHAHAHA Oh no! I spent a couple minutes using the search functionality to get links to threads that I remember happened so I can have you dead to rights immediately instead of arguing back and forth with a proven liar like you.

This just further proves how much of a fraud you are, instead of arguing against the evidence I present, you try to deflect onto something that is not only completely irrelevant but invalid as well.


On the thread which I messed up, already said that was my bad and a mistake. At least I have the decency to put my hand up and admit it when I’m clearly in the wrong, unlike someone else who just can’t take a hint...

Well maybe you should learn from your mistake and stop starting arguments you never win. Easy solution.

EvoX.
02-18-2019, 05:54 AM
I'm guessing all this want is simply to see how the Wu Lin have performed for the first time, because otherwise it's not of any worth. PC, both consoles, 5 different ranks all jumbled up into one highly inaccurate pile of data. Stefan and co. have publicly acknowledged the competitive tier list and are clearly making adjustments based on it, so I guess the matrix has been devalued to just something any player can look at and compare to how he/she feels about specific characters' placements.

Siegfried-Z
02-18-2019, 03:25 PM
I'm guessing all this want is simply to see how the Wu Lin have performed for the first time, because otherwise it's not of any worth. PC, both consoles, 5 different ranks all jumbled up into one highly inaccurate pile of data. Stefan and co. have publicly acknowledged the competitive tier list and are clearly making adjustments based on it, so I guess the matrix has been devalued to just something any player can look at and compare to how he/she feels about specific characters' placements.

This is the point. I know the data is going to be shown as a massive mix between platforms and levels but at least we have some data.

Considering previous data has been shown in the same way, i am really interested to see how Wulins have perform in s8.

I remember in the early days of s7 the team said first data show Valk in a good spot with 55% win rate in duel but still only average in 4v4. At the end of the season it was still the same for Valk.

I also remember the team saying the first s8 data show Nuxia, Shaolin and Tiandi arround 54%-55% and JJ at 60% in duel !
But they though it was because of bad sync on his lights.

I am wondering if the figures are still the same after the whole season and i can't wait To see JJ 4v4 stats.. hurry to laugh a bit.

Vakris_One
02-18-2019, 04:48 PM
I'm guessing all this want is simply to see how the Wu Lin have performed for the first time, because otherwise it's not of any worth. PC, both consoles, 5 different ranks all jumbled up into one highly inaccurate pile of data. Stefan and co. have publicly acknowledged the competitive tier list and are clearly making adjustments based on it, so I guess the matrix has been devalued to just something any player can look at and compare to how he/she feels about specific characters' placements.
I still think it won't be of any worth even just to see how the Wu Lin placed. Because of a) how long they left JJ's desynced light animations thus artificially pushing up his statistical strength and b) on consoles all of the Wu Lin are far stronger than they are on PC and that would distort the data if the platforms are left jumbled together.

Tyrjo
02-21-2019, 07:17 PM
Updated first post with the Season 8 stats.

Sneakly20
02-21-2019, 08:51 PM
Wow pk is real low, along with warlord. That shouldn’t even be a thing 😂 although on the flip side you have JJ. I knew he was gonna stay high even after the light animation changes but that’s still high. Conq dropped which was expected but not too much. Coolio.

Siegfried-Z
02-21-2019, 09:02 PM
Many surprising things !
-Musha strongest 4v4 Char . .?
-Nobu 4v4 number 6..?

Little bit surprise to see Shaolin not better in duel as well.

Now JJ. 2nd in 4v4 and 1 in 1v1. I was expecting 1 in 4v4 and average in 1v1. These stats looks a bit weird.

But at least it show how JJ is outperforming.

Vendelkin
02-21-2019, 09:22 PM
Yeah Nobu and Mushas Placements were very surprising.

Also who makes those reddit tier lists? I mean im a primary proponent of the buff musha scene, but I would never have put him at d tier even with his flaws.
He really is a polarizing hero tho, sometimes you hard wreck people when catching them unprepared, and other times you meet back dodge perfectionists that make ara life terrible. Also despite the data I feel we still need a dodge attack of some kind. there have been many good threads about ara in the past that might get dug up because of this.

It may be difficult to put together but i'd be interested in seeing the top few team comps for 4v4s too. cause its obviously never a solo gig.

Nobu 4v4 ranks was super surprising to me.

So on the concept of aramusha in 4v4, im not super surprised because he clears out mobs fast, and quick kills on surprise. He's particularly valuable in breach imo for his minion kill potential. And admitting his target switch game is some of the best around. Dominion mode is weird anyways. too many people kill hunt as if it was a skirmish match IMO. Dominions oalso encourage ganking more than breach given the smaller maps. aramusha doesnt shine in a 1v 3 or a 1 v 4, but he definately shines in 4 v 4s where he can quickly deliver damage while moving target to target. Breach has gank squads sure, but the 4v4 occurs lest often in it than it does in dominion in my experience, could be totally wrong on this one tho.

Also just having rock steady probably does a surprising amount for him.

Rock steady alone I think is the reasoning, since shugo couldnt visibly make use of it, and also lacks the attack speed to capitalize on it hard. Point being the best use of rocksteady is not getting knocked over on revenge trigger, which contributes massively in 4v4s, and also allows you to surprise people when you come back from some of their knockdowns much faster than they planned on. Additionally this would slightly make sense for the difference between dominion and breach. breach has a lot less available potential for ledge kills, where as dominion enables them everywhere in most maps, thus in dominion rock steady plays a greater role of keeping the ara alive.
Im willing to bet if they removed rocksteady from his feat list he'd immediately drop down quite a bit in 4v4s,

And you know what? I love rock steady, but I would very happily give it up if they changed him to make up for it's loss in some other viable way as suggested in other threads. better actual gameplay, less gimmicky feat nullifying max punishes.

however for those claiming rock steady shouldn't ever have been on him cause he isnt heavy like the shugoki, rocksteady doesn't have to be about physical build, it can be about balancing and footwork too so to me that argument just fails.

CandleInTheDark
02-21-2019, 09:32 PM
-Nobu 4v4 number 6..?

I think the key here is that this is breach. Nobushi has a very nice set of perks as a pure support class. When you consider how large the play area is and that she can bring people to 75% health, that will cause a use of less tickets, maybe keep defenders on the respawn screen for a shorter time as well. (At least going with my setup for support class which is remedy so health boost on kills, feline agility for the speed boost, and rising dawn).

Then you consider her feats, speed revive at tier one unlocked, plus quicker to get to allies plus 75% health? That's nice right there. Tier two are all relatively useful without being spectacular, tier three she can heal herself which is certainly useful on the attacking side, tier four she can heal others including, on the defending team, the lord. That speed boost will also be useful for running the flag (especially if the player or team is on top of the times) or intercepting someone with it, this reasoning, by the by, is exactly why I wouldn't want any different perks for my nobushi or valkyrie, I am someone who plays the objective and this set is a big help in breach.

With a different perk set, you could forgo the speed boost and have two of rising dawn. clever tactics which takes a zone quicker (useful for attackers) and rapid refresh which brings about the healing stuff mentioned before more frequently. It's also worth noting that it is the top 4% rank nobushi is high in, these will be people, likely grouped up, who put a lot more into playing the objective than most on the other chart and can likely hold their own in a fight without needing to shout that they don't have any stamina perks.

TimeToCrusade
02-21-2019, 09:52 PM
Not really surprised by musha tbh, In 4 he is the best hero when it comes to take advantage of a landing CC with his fast hard hitting heavies. Also very good for switching targets in a chaotic battle. You need to gank tho, but that is no problem

He is underestimated overall

rottmeister
02-21-2019, 11:16 PM
Isn't it weird how all the Wu Lin performed extremely good in plat and above (all of them are in the top 5) meanwhile they scored average (except JJ) in the duel full population? Orochi being 3rd in all ranks doesn't surprise me at all, kind of expected since his lights can be hard to deal with if you don't continuously train against these fast attacks.

Wow PK scored abysmal overall, 39% win-loss ouch...

It might just be me but it seems that we're closer to balance than ever, with the exception of JJ and Conq scoring a bit too high and PK, WL, HL, Glad and Nobushi a bit too low, so I'm guessing after LB and raider get their rework, these heroes will be reworked next (prob not PK & WL because they already got theirs in this season, not that I think it did much). Would love to see Nobushi get reworked (or at least have 500 ms lights...). Didn't expect LB & Aramusha to score average in duels. It shocked me that Aramusha ended up being the highest scoring hero in dominion (top 4%), I guess 90% of those deaths are mine ;)

I can see Aramusha being reworked just because of fan demand, but based on this data he looks like a solid hero (not saying he shouldn't get some love aka buffs/rework).

Vakris_One
02-21-2019, 11:18 PM
Another excercise in pointlessness with the win matrix yet again. This time they not only showed us the 30% of all ranked players again but also the entire population of the whole game.

- Where are the statistics for the top 1% of players so we can account for the high level and competitive scene and not just the casual and mid-tier crowd?

- Where are the seperated data matrixes for PC and for Consoles respectively?

Showing us the entire game's playerbase and the top 30% of all ranked players is a bit of fun but it does nothing in telling us about how balanced the roster is. Orochi in the top 3 in 1v1 and Musha in 1st place in Dominion. That's hilarious considering how incredibly bad these two heroes fair in high level play and their complete non-existence in competitive tournaments.

So basically, pooling win rate and pick rate data from 100% and 30% of the total playerbase tells us 2 things:

1) People like to play to their fantasy and not whichever character is most viable. Shocking! So you're telling me that people who don't play for money are playing a video game purely for... fun!? Mind blown. And what does this tell us about how balanced the heroes are? Absolutely zero because at this level of skill pretty much every hero is viable.

2) The majority of the population are on console, which skews the data towards the console experience of the game. How else would we see Orochi in 3rd place in Duel and Aramusha in 1st place in Dominion. However the devs don't balance for consoles AT ALL and yet they show us a win matrix completely dominated by the console experience... Very cool guys. Very cool.

For actual hero viability these win matrixes are completley useless. Anyone interested in hero viability at the levels where hero viability actually matters should work off of the competitive tier list and forget what the Ubi devs are talking about. They're pretty much blowing smoke up our butts and taking us for fools by not sharing all of the stats that they use for balancing. Or in the very least letting us see win rates and pick rates seperated by platform and by ranked tiers.

rottmeister
02-21-2019, 11:31 PM
For actual hero viability these win matrixes are completley useless. Anyone interested in hero viability at the levels where hero viability actually matters should work off of the competitive tier list and forget what the Ubi devs are talking about. They're pretty much blowing smoke up our butts and taking us for fools by not sharing all of the stats that they use for balancing. Or in the very least letting us see win rates and pick rates seperated by platform and by ranked tiers.

Agreed, but if you look at the past few Matrixes, the characters on the lower end ended up getting a rework. The lowest scoring heroes (in plat & above) were WL and PK, both got "reworks" this season and if I'm not mistaken the same happened with Orochi etc. These matrixes are obviously being used to balance the cast which is probably why some of the dev's statements were so controversial (remember when LB mains just needed to learn their character? It's because he scores really high in 4vs4 and average in duels. In their eyes there was no issue because they look mostly at their own data and there was no sign that Aramusha/LB were performing bad except for player feedback, so they decided to dismiss it like they dismissed "light spam")

These aren't really objective numbers, it doesn't take into account how they won (ledging vs "honor")/ how many mistakes the human players made. Difficulty is also subjective. I for one can destroy good JJ's (in 1vs1) but get Absolutely destroyed by an Aramusha. I'll likely lose to an Aramusha more and contribute in his W/L-ratio being higher than it should.

What I said in my previous post was a mere observation of the data and speculation on who might receive a rework next.

EvoX.
02-21-2019, 11:47 PM
What a worthless graph.

And honestly, Nuxia being the top 1 least picked hero in the game is pretty embarrassing considering she's part of a paid DLC that launched just 4 months ago. A normal dev would do something for the hero to change that, but that won't be happening here.

Sneakly20
02-22-2019, 02:36 AM
Where are the statistics for the top 1% of players so we can account for the high level and competitive scene and not just the casual and mid-tier crowd?

I believe the reason is because they can’t look at certain heroes that high. The characters that are strongest or can be used the best will be picked.

On the flip side the weaker heroes won’t be picked at all. Meaning there’s either a lack of or no data at all to put toward the charts.

They said this in old warriors den. If I can it I’ll link it.

guest-4xn53EA8
02-22-2019, 02:41 AM
This just shows the devs have NO IDEA on how to balance this game. Just a bunch of useless people. What are they waiting for to nerf JJ?! Oh I forgot, they are money hunters. Thanks again...

Vakris_One
02-22-2019, 02:07 PM
I believe the reason is because they can’t look at certain heroes that high. The characters that are strongest or can be used the best will be picked.

On the flip side the weaker heroes won’t be picked at all. Meaning there’s either a lack of or no data at all to put toward the charts.

They said this in old warriors den. If I can it I’ll link it.
I agree. But the abscence of certain heroes is still useful data. It tells us these heroes are not competitively viable and should be looked at to find out why they are considered weaker than the heroes who do get picked. It is valuable data but the devs just don't want to make a show of how deeply flawed some of the roster are. They would rather show charts of the entire population using all the heroes because it's a better image for their game when all their heroes are in use no matter how badly designed some of them are.

Starfighter_104
02-22-2019, 02:39 PM
Uhm, I only see the Hero pick rate for the top 4% in Breach mode in the first post? What about the rest of the stats?

Tyrjo
02-22-2019, 04:33 PM
Tinypic acted up it seems. Put it all on imgur now instead.

Vendelkin
02-22-2019, 10:29 PM
What a worthless graph.

And honestly, Nuxia being the top 1 least picked hero in the game is pretty embarrassing considering she's part of a paid DLC that launched just 4 months ago. A normal dev would do something for the hero to change that, but that won't be happening here.


Nuxia yes and no. I mean its yhe first time they released 4 at once. All previous dual releases had one hero out of the spotlight while the other was considered op (generally) and witg how strong/unique jj and shaolin were of course she gets overshadowed.

On the flip side it could be cause shes just another light spammer and we all hate her hahaha

UbiInsulin
02-22-2019, 11:39 PM
Updated first post with the Season 8 stats.

Thanks Tyrjo. :)

Remember everyone, these numbers are just a few pieces of what the team looks at when making decisions. Hopefully they provide some interesting context to what you're already seeing in the game.

ArchDukeInstinct
02-23-2019, 04:13 AM
So the devs see that the PK is dead last in EVERYTHING and all they did was give a couple extra damage points and lower stamina costs a little bit? Like come on, that's ridiculous. Warlord got his superior light damage doubled and they're still complaining.

Also interesting that Conqueror is actually negative in Bronze-Gold (he must be to even out the 56% in plat and up), even though Anti-Conqs swore up and down all Conq needs to do is shield bash to win. Bronze-Gold don't know how to do a shield bash? lol Of course Anti-Conqs were wrong, Conq is really about being as safe as possible utilizing his various option selects while grinding the opponent down with Conqueror's pitiful damage, hoping they never get a major punish.

Vendelkin
02-23-2019, 05:09 AM
So the devs see that the PK is dead last in EVERYTHING and all they did was give a couple extra damage points and lower stamina costs a little bit? Like come on, that's ridiculous. Warlord got his superior light damage doubled and they're still complaining.

Also interesting that Conqueror is actually negative in Bronze-Gold (he must be to even out the 56% in plat and up), even though Anti-Conqs swore up and down all Conq needs to do is shield bash to win. Bronze-Gold don't know how to do a shield bash? lol Of course Anti-Conqs were wrong, Conq is really about being as safe as possible utilizing his various option selects while grinding the opponent down with Conqueror's pitiful damage, hoping they never get a major punish.

Duke that was before wulin and other reworks. Not surprusing for this season. 56 is still fairly high. Literally no one thought he would be top after the release. And he is still very strong. You really are over focused on your personal crusade here eh?

But yeah conq is no where near in need of a nerf compared to some others.

KotoKuraken
02-23-2019, 06:46 AM
so I'm guessing after LB and raider get their rework, these heroes will be reworked next (prob not PK & WL because they already got theirs in this season, not that I think it did much). Would love to see Nobushi get reworked (or at least have 500 ms lights...).\

They better not wait an eternity to rework PK.
1) They nerfed everything about PK, gave her nothing to work with. No, that bleed doesn't count, it's literally useless.
2) They kept PK at last place every season since she was nerfed.
3) They "buffed" her but not really. PK keeps going lower and lower and lower in the rankings, and I doubt putting a tiny pixel of damage on a heavy that they just made as slow as a Lawbringer heavy with none of the damage is going to fix anything.

If there's anyone who deserves a proper rework, it's PK. Not only is she the worst hero in the game for the longest amount of time, she was purposely put there. There's literally no one worse, so she should be the highest priority when the current publicly announced reworks have been completed.

Cyroy95
02-23-2019, 08:35 AM
They better not wait an eternity to rework PK.
1) They nerfed everything about PK, gave her nothing to work with. No, that bleed doesn't count, it's literally useless.
2) They kept PK at last place every season since she was nerfed.
3) They "buffed" her but not really. PK keeps going lower and lower and lower in the rankings, and I doubt putting a tiny pixel of damage on a heavy that they just made as slow as a Lawbringer heavy with none of the damage is going to fix anything.

If there's anyone who deserves a proper rework, it's PK. Not only is she the worst hero in the game for the longest amount of time, she was purposely put there. There's literally no one worse, so she should be the highest priority when the current publicly announced reworks have been completed.

Who is Peacekeeper? You mean that one minion that keeps guardbreaking me when I try clear minions? :P
The thing with Peacekeeper in my opinion is that the basics are present in her character. She has most things needed to be a viable character. She has decent mixups that can keep enemies on their toes. Personally I like to start my chain with a whiffed light as it opens up a decent amount of follow ups and with the increased damage I do feel as if I whittle down enemies faster than I used to but there's just that one thing that lacks and that's either a bash or unblockable, something to keep the pressure up because the more drawn out the fight gets, the more your opponent starts to realise "Huh... I just have to guard top and react to anything else that might come my way" and that's when you lose and that is also the moment where you need an unblockable/bash.

So to summarize my little ramble: "The pieces are there, she just needs that one extra piece to put it all together.

rottmeister
02-23-2019, 11:36 AM
They better not wait an eternity to rework PK.
1) They nerfed everything about PK, gave her nothing to work with. No, that bleed doesn't count, it's literally useless.
2) They kept PK at last place every season since she was nerfed.
3) They "buffed" her but not really. PK keeps going lower and lower and lower in the rankings, and I doubt putting a tiny pixel of damage on a heavy that they just made as slow as a Lawbringer heavy with none of the damage is going to fix anything.

If there's anyone who deserves a proper rework, it's PK. Not only is she the worst hero in the game for the longest amount of time, she was purposely put there. There's literally no one worse, so she should be the highest priority when the current publicly announced reworks have been completed.

I agree that PK should get a proper rework, but I doubt she'll receive one soon. She's already gotten two even though one destroyed her and the other one was barely a buff at all. She's not been this low for the longest time though, she topped the matrixes up until her first rework (season 6). Again, I'd love to see her receive a proper rework but I think Ubi will prioritize the heroes who haven't received one whilst giving her some small 'band-aids' from time to time.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, there aren't that much non dlc heroes anymore that haven't gotten a proper rework (starting from Season 5). If I'm not wrong it's just: Nobushi (had a hero update but no rework), Raider (apparently he had one already, but I don't think it was after Season 5?) and Lawbringer (got new animations and a nerf to some feats). So perhaps in Season 11/Year 3 season 3 we could expect her again? Then again Ubi could swerve us and rework DLC heroes before ever touching PK ever again.

ArchDukeInstinct
02-23-2019, 09:49 PM
Duke that was before wulin and other reworks. Not surprusing for this season. 56 is still fairly high. Literally no one thought he would be top after the release. And he is still very strong. You really are over focused on your personal crusade here eh?

But yeah conq is no where near in need of a nerf compared to some others.

You do know that the stats literally tell you each individual matchup win rate, right? So we can easily calculate the average for the cast excluding Wulin and it still comes out to 50.4% for the full population stats. So no, the Wulin are just a red herring because it's still 50% against the rest of the cast too and my point about what the real strengths of Conqueror are (ie it's not shield bash) still stands. The problem being that this misinformation about shield bash is still going to be posted regularly. Thankfully the devs haven't fell for it yet.

If you aren't even going to address the actual point I made then don't bother replying, thanks.

Vendelkin
02-24-2019, 01:22 AM
If you aren't even going to address the actual point I made then don't bother replying, thanks.

I felt like replying so i did. You dont addrrss other people points. You bring up your own. I am allowed the same freedom. Also i ,did address 50% of your post.

As far as your point about wulin statistics you are massively skewed. Everyone knows you hard ignore outliers in any proper statistical study. So yes that means if you were going to calculate the release as a whole youd ignore nuxia in principle because of her pick rate alone. More data is needed there. If you want to skew stastics using median faction data then look at conq alongside all the knights or alongside the current state of the original roster. What will these numbers show us? Literally nothing useful anyone should make a conclusion about beyond maybe making the claim that the old cast is weaker overall. No surprise there

Also trying to suddenly defend wu lin winrates does nothing for your core argument so consider me confused by this pointless choice.

Please do again note that i agree conq does not need a nerf in the manner many people prescribe. Maybe not even at all with how they are improving heroes.

Conqs strength imo comes from his slightly safer superior blocks that do very heavy damage for a SB. Safer in part because of the option select style moves you mentioned. That being said should they be nerfed? No they shouldnt be. Even tho I almost feel like telling you otherwise just to get your goat but thats just me being honest. Really i wasnt anti conq till i started seeing your posts everywhere, and im still probably not one of your anti conqs. But i do tire of you bringing him up in random threads.

Your original post focused 50% on peacekeeper stuff, which yeah i agree her recent teased and given buff was a huge dissapointment. And 50% on your typical anti conq/pro conq rhetoric. I responded to your post by responding to that 50% especially since conq was still a high outlier in duels. 56 % is nothing to laugh at. And yes if looking straight at the data its balancing around duels would put cent on the chopping block right after jj imo. (Yes i am one of those that believes balancing should be done for plat or higher, because in balancing you check the strongest links not the weakest links first)

Additional discourse on statistics. Logically when a sample size grows larger all win rates should stabilize more. This makes the jjs standing all the more impressive. And also does directly account for a decrease in conqs win rates, pick rates, etc. The fact that he maintained a 56% 2nd place is very impressive and significant. Further as discussed in other places these statistics and their gathering methods are still very very left in the dark for us to see.

HighGround_S3G
02-24-2019, 05:28 AM
JJ needs nerfed big time. And Peacekeeper needs buffed back to what she was before the For Honor devs destroyed her and made her the worst class in the game!

While your at it, nerf hyper armor, or give EVERY class hyper armor

And nerf guard break, it should not be able to grab people who are dodging!

HighGround_S3G
02-24-2019, 05:30 AM
and nerf the stun time from parrying a light attack, a light parry stun should be the same or less than a heavy stun, not longer!

Cyroy95
02-24-2019, 07:43 AM
And nerf guard break, it should not be able to grab people who are dodging!

That's a terrible idea, that would leave literally anyone without an unlockable unable to deal with dodge-attack turtles.

ChampionRuby50g
02-24-2019, 09:11 AM
and nerf the stun time from parrying a light attack, a light parry stun should be the same or less than a heavy stun, not longer!

Hot damn, your ideas reek of low level player who really doesn’t know what they are talking about. Maybe don’t spam light attacks and mix it up a little bit?

ArchDukeInstinct
02-24-2019, 12:39 PM
I felt like replying so i did. You dont addrrss other people points. You bring up your own. I am allowed the same freedom. Also i ,did address 50% of your post.

Let me clarify, I don't need you to address ALL points I've made, I need you to address at a minimum ONE point if you are going to quote and attempt a reply.

You see, when I make a point that compares the two populations' statistics and what the disparity between the two would seem to indicate about the game, you clearly aren't addressing it by saying "56% is still high!!!". Did I ever say 56% was fine or not still higher than ideal? No.


As far as your point about wulin statistics you are massively skewed. Everyone knows you hard ignore outliers in any proper statistical study. So yes that means if you were going to calculate the release as a whole youd ignore nuxia in principle because of her pick rate alone. More data is needed there. If you want to skew stastics using median faction data then look at conq alongside all the knights or alongside the current state of the original roster. What will these numbers show us? Literally nothing useful anyone should make a conclusion about beyond maybe making the claim that the old cast is weaker overall. No surprise there

Nuxia's pick rate has 0 influence on Conqueror's win rate against the year 1 cast.


Also trying to suddenly defend wu lin winrates does nothing for your core argument so consider me confused by this pointless choice.

I'm not defending any win rates. I'm telling you how I took Conq vs other year 1 character winrates and averaged them so there is no interference from Wulin, and the average is 50.4% for the full population statistics. That's why Wulin are a non-factor with regards to the point I actually made, yet you continue to bring them up anyway.


Conqs strength imo comes from his slightly safer superior blocks that do very heavy damage for a SB. Safer in part because of the option select style moves you mentioned. That being said should they be nerfed? No they shouldnt be.

I'd nerf the option selects. Conq's zone attack should give a light parry punish and Conq shouldn't be able to cancel his heavy charge immediately after starting one so there is a chance to GB him if he tries to use it as an option select. They should also make his superior block on dodge start at 100ms again instead of 0ms. These are really basic changes which would not only help the win rate normalize but would also make the matchups with Conqueror way less stale because Conqueror would be less effective at stalling a match.


Even tho I almost feel like telling you otherwise just to get your goat but thats just me being honest. Really i wasnt anti conq till i started seeing your posts everywhere, and im still probably not one of your anti conqs. But i do tire of you bringing him up in random threads.

That's because I'm here to make the game better and generally stick to discussing the class I've been in the top 100 for, while you're just here for some weird confrontation where you try to disagree with points I didn't even make.

I-Nibbiru-I
02-26-2019, 11:13 AM
ArchChamp

I ship them, anyone else?

D3dicatedSrv3rz
02-27-2019, 09:07 AM
How TF did the WR discrepancy manage to F***ing double from S7 to S8

https://media.giphy.com/media/26gsq8fim9nnlRUgU/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/42vkvzReoS7UwQ2Zo5/giphy.gif

Charmzzz
02-27-2019, 02:47 PM
Came back to the Forum for a quick check on the Win Matrix. Even though old, everything as expected. PK dead last, the minor buff won't help her out there. JJ and Conq top notch, as plenty of people said before. ArchDuke spilling his toxic "Anti-Concs!!!" bs all over this thread, history repeating I guess.

This game is dead to me. It was fun for me until Marching Fire. I could even cope with the massively overtuned Conq and Kensei. But as they clearly show no interest in bringing my Main up again, and I refuse to play the FOTM all the time, I guess I should just leave it here. Maybe FH2 will be better.

Bye guys.

And Archduke, save yourself some time and don't reply, I won't come back to read it anyway.

SpaceJim12
02-27-2019, 03:04 PM
Oh my!.. JJ on every top in every category! Maybe...because...after all...he is broken.=)

Vakris_One
02-27-2019, 04:53 PM
This game is dead to me. It was fun for me until Marching Fire. I could even cope with the massively overtuned Conq and Kensei.
Always nice to see a familiar face. A shame you're not into the game anymore but I can totally understand your reasons. What's overtuned about Kensei though?

nufrancis
02-28-2019, 03:33 AM
How come Aramusha on top 5 in every game mode? especially duel

Tyrjo
02-28-2019, 07:01 AM
How come Aramusha on top 5 in every game mode? especially duel

Because he seems to be winning a lot.

nufrancis
02-28-2019, 07:11 AM
Isnt he one of the worst hero right now? Im maining him also, but hes bad imo. No opener and for high level play his soft feint can be easily countered. He is fun to use thought and the most important aspect of him ==> one of the coolest hero in FH, second below Kensei

Tyrjo
02-28-2019, 10:20 AM
Isnt he one of the worst hero right now? Im maining him also, but hes bad imo. No opener and for high level play his soft feint can be easily countered. He is fun to use thought and the most important aspect of him ==> one of the coolest hero in FH, second below Kensei

People should stop reading into the pro tier lists so much because they are irrelevant unless you are a professional. Many heroes are perfectly viable in the other skill brackets, some are even really good if your opponent can't defend properly. Just look at all the complaints Centurion gets.

Vakris_One
02-28-2019, 12:11 PM
People should stop reading into the pro tier lists so much because they are irrelevant unless you are a professional. Many heroes are perfectly viable in the other skill brackets, some are even really good if your opponent can't defend properly. Just look at all the complaints Centurion gets.
True enough about the competitive Duel and Brawl tier lists but the Dominion comp tier list is still relevant to the non-competitive game as it rates heroes based on team effectiveness, best ganks, etc.

As for Aramusha being top 5 in Duel and Dom in the win matrix, let's look at the data pool the devs used for our answer. They showed us the matrix for the entire playerbase where Orochi is in 3rd place in Duels. It goes without saying that all this shows us is that more people suck at this game or play it casually than there are actual good players.

The second set of data they showed us is 30% of the total playetbase that play ranked. 30% is a huge pool and once again the average and medium skilled players outnumber the high level players and therefore they drown out the higher level player stats such as those coming from Master and Grand Master rank because there are far fewer players in those two ranks than there are in Platinum and Diamond ranks. When the devs clump data together like this instead of showing us the individual win matrixes for each rank it just shows the majority stats (low to mid level players) drowning out the minority (high level players).

And finally we have the fact that PC and Consoles are clumped together. Consoles have the majority of the playerbase so the win matrixes are heavily skewed in favour of the console experience of the game. Which is how we get Orochi in 3rd place in Duel and Aramusha top 5 in duel and 1st place in Dominion. Two characters who are notorious for being problematic on consoles while simultaneously being incredibly weak on PC.

So basically the devs might as well have called the win matrix, "The console and low to mid level player win matrix" because those are the stats that are being overwhelmingly represented when they clump all the data together instead of showing us the data seperated by platforms and by each rank individually.

Hopefully this explains why seeing Aramusha in the top 5 is not surprising. At the majority skill level that we're being shown pretty much every character is viable with consoles swinging it even further towards characters capable of light spam.

Tyrjo
02-28-2019, 12:53 PM
Yes, I was specifically talking about 1vs1 encounters. I always tend to do that with saying it directly, my bad.

What I meant by people looking at pro tier lists to much, is that in comparison to the win matrices they are irrelevant for most players. Example: Mid level console players coming to the forum and complain about how weak Aramusha is, because that is what he/she heard and that's what they want to believe. But for most players the matrix data actually is relevant, because most players play on console and most players aren't in platinum and above.

Another thing most people don't mention is that only a fraction of the player base actually contribute to the data in Duel. This is something I have talked about earlier, as I think it's important to get the whole community to participate in Duels. It would improve the matchmaking immensely.

Vakris_One
02-28-2019, 03:04 PM
Yes, I was specifically talking about 1vs1 encounters. I always tend to do that with saying it directly, my bad.

What I meant by people looking at pro tier lists to much, is that in comparison to the win matrices they are irrelevant for most players. Example: Mid level console players coming to the forum and complain about how weak Aramusha is, because that is what he/she heard and that's what they want to believe. But for most players the matrix data actually is relevant, because most players play on console and most players aren't in platinum and above.
Well the objective fact still is that Aramusha is a weak duelist and a very average team hero. Objectively his feats don't give him much of any kind of team effectiveness or synergy and his kit is below average when compared to reworked vanilla heroes, DLC heroes Shaman and Highlander, all the Wu Lin and Black Prior. He is not an easy character to do well with unlike other heroes who are simply much easier to be a threat with - primarily characters with relatively safe unblockables and/or synergistic feats.

Aramusha is one of the characters that is emblematic of a benchmark for player skill progression in For Honor. To players who have not yet passed this skill benchmark he is like an oppressive end game Dark Souls boss. But to players who do progress beyond this skill hurdle he is never again a credible threat to them.

I absolutely agree that people shouldn't just take a tier list as gospel. The context of a tier list is what people should be looking at when determining how useful it is to them. However, the fact that pretty much every hero is viable at the average skill level should not be used as the basis for judging which characters are strong and which are weak because at that skill level the objective power of a hero's entire tool kit is largely irrelevant.



Another thing most people don't mention is that only a fraction of the player base actually contribute to the data in Duel. This is something I have talked about earlier, as I think it's important to get the whole community to participate in Duels. It would improve the matchmaking immensely.
They did show us the duel data for the whole playerbase that had played regular unranked duel consistently during the Season. You can't really ask for more than that because there will always be people that just don't want to play a 1v1 mode let alone playing the more intensely competitive ranked version.

Tyrjo
02-28-2019, 05:17 PM
The objective fact is that Aramusha is a weak duelist in the higher tiers. Another objective fact, as you said, is that Aramusha can be oppressive below those tiers for people who don't know how to shut him down. That is the reason why the statistics look like they do.

My point was not to determine that Aramusha is a strong hero in general, but that players who haven't hit that glass ceiling yet with him actually should perform well with him. Meaning if you are in gold/silver skill and complain about not being able to win with Aramusha, you are doing something wrong, because other players seem to do well with him in those tiers.

Vendelkin
02-28-2019, 05:37 PM
Duels really should be incentivized more because of how they measure hero skill. 1v1 fights happen in 4v4 modes too h7t we dont have data from them for obvious reasons.

Duels right now because of the load screen to play time ratio are just not fun/rewarding enough to entice most players.

Jastorm187
02-28-2019, 10:38 PM
Aramousha also shows better in 4v4 for a couple reasons.
1) If you arent focused on him (he is a secondary attacker) his infinite chain and damage potential he can chip at a player very well and apply good pressure.
2) He is one of the top minion/pikeman killer in the game right now. In dominion you throw him mid and he can clear out faster than most which takes mid sooner which results in more points.

Remember playing objective is how you win. Push the ram and kill pikeman. Slaughter minion and hold zones. He does this very well and highly effects win rates. This is true without factoring how good/awful he is in 1v1 on heroes. If he is surrounded by pikeman his own pike man and stays in the pack it also helps any 1v1.

So im not surprised aramousha is high tier in 4v4 stats. People forget 4v4 isnt only about ganking and KD even though some people play it that way.

As for duel, at lower skill his infinite chain is hard to deal with especially with those soft feints. I used to have trouble against him till i took the time to learn his kit.

Vakris_One
02-28-2019, 11:09 PM
The objective fact is that Aramusha is a weak duelist in the higher tiers. Another objective fact, as you said, is that Aramusha can be oppressive below those tiers for people who don't know how to shut him down. That is the reason why the statistics look like they do.

My point was not to determine that Aramusha is a strong hero in general, but that players who haven't hit that glass ceiling yet with him actually should perform well with him. Meaning if you are in gold/silver skill and complain about not being able to win with Aramusha, you are doing something wrong, because other players seem to do well with him in those tiers.
I get'cha. Fair point.

Knight_Raime
03-01-2019, 12:25 PM
True enough about the competitive Duel and Brawl tier lists but the Dominion comp tier list is still relevant to the non-competitive game as it rates heroes based on team effectiveness, best ganks, etc.

As for Aramusha being top 5 in Duel and Dom in the win matrix, let's look at the data pool the devs used for our answer. They showed us the matrix for the entire playerbase where Orochi is in 3rd place in Duels. It goes without saying that all this shows us is that more people suck at this game or play it casually than there are actual good players.

The second set of data they showed us is 30% of the total playetbase that play ranked. 30% is a huge pool and once again the average and medium skilled players outnumber the high level players and therefore they drown out the higher level player stats such as those coming from Master and Grand Master rank because there are far fewer players in those two ranks than there are in Platinum and Diamond ranks. When the devs clump data together like this instead of showing us the individual win matrixes for each rank it just shows the majority stats (low to mid level players) drowning out the minority (high level players).

And finally we have the fact that PC and Consoles are clumped together. Consoles have the majority of the playerbase so the win matrixes are heavily skewed in favour of the console experience of the game. Which is how we get Orochi in 3rd place in Duel and Aramusha top 5 in duel and 1st place in Dominion. Two characters who are notorious for being problematic on consoles while simultaneously being incredibly weak on PC.

So basically the devs might as well have called the win matrix, "The console and low to mid level player win matrix" because those are the stats that are being overwhelmingly represented when they clump all the data together instead of showing us the data seperated by platforms and by each rank individually.

Hopefully this explains why seeing Aramusha in the top 5 is not surprising. At the majority skill level that we're being shown pretty much every character is viable with consoles swinging it even further towards characters capable of light spam.

Should mention that while what you are saying has a fair bit to do with it Aramusha actually has some nice factors in dom. He's semi decent at target swapping with his infinite combo and deadly feints. His infinite combo actually makes him pretty great at constantly destroying the enemy teams minions. Finally he has some pretty nutty damage for punishes and his heavies in general being hard to GB due to their low vulnerability windows. I suppose his BB is also decent at dealing with unlocked attacks. Not saying Mushu is amazing by any stretch but highlighting his strengths.