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ChocoPanda12
12-23-2018, 02:56 AM
Real Life For Honor Tier List:

Hello. The following is a tier list based off of how powerful these characters would be in real life. The higher the tier, the stronger the hero. Lower tiers are obviously weaker. Feel free to comment opinions.

S-Tier (God Tier):

- Lawbringer (Armor won't dent easily. The pole axe will leave foes hit hard. He will cleave his enemies, with a weapon that can swing and thrust effectively)
- Tiandi (Armor is metal, but light enough to be quite mobile. With a sword that can be effectively wielded with one hand, quick cuts can severely damage joints)
- Warden (Strong metal armor and a strong, long metal weapon? The perfect offense and defense)
- Jiang Jun (A tall, broad figure who can swing the guan dao to cleave foes in a few hits. Far range, devastating blows)

A-Tier:

- Highlander (The claymore is a strong heavy weapon that can land hard hitting blows on foes. His lack of armor allows him to move faster with such a heavy weapon, but leaves his defense rather weak)
- Conqueror (Very strong defense with metal armor and shield. The flail is a strong, deceptive weapon. Can deal blunt damage to armored foes. However, the flail is ineffective as a quick consecutive hitter to armored foes. May lack far offensive range. Charging consumes time)
- Warlord (The shield and sword provide a strong offense and defense. His armor is decently tough. His lack of range is a significant disadvantage)
- Nuxia (The hook swords allow for varied ranged attacks. The lightweight of the swords and armor allow for quick movements. Hooks can reposition foes rather effectively in real life. Disadvantaged in defense)
- Orochi (With flexible, plated armor, the mobility potential is high. Rather balanced offense and defense. Katana is strong, but doesn't cleave foes or damage armor easily)
- Centurion (Metal armor and gladius is light enough for good mobility. Metal fist provides another offensive technique. Lack of range leaves offense disadvantaged. Gladius can deal good damage to joints and has dent potential)

B-Tier:

- Kensei (Wood armor is a weak defense. The katana has long range and can deal good damage, so offense is decently good, but can't cleave foes or damage armor easily. Less quick than other katanas)
- Shugoki (Kanabo will hit hard, doesn't cleave foes or damage armor easily. High knock back is a defensive technique. High body weight weakens mobility drastically. Wood armor is a weak defense)
- Nobushi (Naginata has long range and can cut un armored foes well. Struggles against armor and shields. No armor herself, her defense is very weak. Hidden stance would not be effective in real life)
- Valkyrie (Spear has long range and is thin enough to make blocking difficult. Armor is somewhat weak, but allows for higher mobility. Small shield is rather weak, but still somewhat effective and improves defense to some extent)

C-Tier:

- Shaolin (Staff leaves somewhat of a blow and foes. Light armor allows for high mobility. Offensive advantage with long range. The fact that the staff can be held in the middle allows for unique, effective ways to hit enemies)
- Raider (Long axe will leave heavy blows and foes, cleave and dent armor. Has lack of armor which allows for high mobility. The fact that raider's skin is exposed is a major defensive disadvantage)
- Gladiator (Same defensive issue as raider except that the shield provides higher defense. Shield/Buckler is also a good offensive tool and the trident is a unique, lol weapon. High mobility)
- Aramusha (Dual katanas doesn't provide any more advantage than a singular katana would. Lack of armor is a defensive issue. Straw hat puts vision to a slight disadvantage)

D-Tier:

- Berserker (A shirt doesn't provide any defense. Axes can not effectively block. Lack of range is an offensive disadvantage. Dual axes don't provide any more advantage than a singular axe. Weak offense, weak defense, high mobility)
- Shinobi (Same as berserker except with a kusarigama)
- Peacekeeper (Same as berserker except with daggers)
- Shaman (Same as berserker except with hatchet and dagger)

Siegfried-Z
12-23-2018, 09:28 AM
Man in real life Kensei and Orochi would destroy everyone else.

People have To realize no others people in the world have mastered as high as Samurais the sword art. Even the Chinese except some monks maybe.

Plus a good Katana could split someone in two, what even the big Lawbro with his 2 hands Hallebarde couldnt.

Kargish1
12-23-2018, 12:51 PM
Man in real life Kensei and Orochi would destroy everyone else.

People have To realize no others people in the world have mastered as high as Samurais the sword art. Even the Chinese except some monks maybe.

Plus a good Katana could split someone in two, what even the big Lawbro with his 2 hands Hallebarde couldnt.

I don't care if it was Shao Kahn himself swinging that blade, a sword cannot cut through metal plating, and a katana/nodachi can especially not do it. Lawbringer would decimate Kensei and Orochi at the same time.

chukblok
12-23-2018, 01:40 PM
Actually. According to all history and facts. The katana was not a battlefield weapon. It was more ceremonial. It was believe it or not....very ineffective at cutting plate. A fully armoured knight was highly resistant to steel edges. Plate armour however was not as effective against blunt trauma.

Second. The main weapons of samurai were NOT katana. Spears and bows were. The katana was last resort.

Third. Yes the Japanese were excellent sword smiths. But the quality of materials was awful. So they had to be. But a well made European long sword was much much more durable because of this. Yes beautiful weapons.

Illyrian_King
12-23-2018, 02:14 PM
Man in real life Kensei and Orochi would destroy everyone else.

People have To realize no others people in the world have mastered as high as Samurais the sword art. Even the Chinese except some monks maybe.

Plus a good Katana could split someone in two, what even the big Lawbro with his 2 hands Hallebarde couldnt.

Wrong!

Katanas and swords in general can't cut through metall. Not even talking about certain steel alloys, which can multiply the duration of common iron. Lawbringers even have advanced armour production techniques which is "a secret of their order".

Also katanas were back-up weapons, while weapons like the yari (spear) were be primary.



Lawdaddy has it all. The best armour of the whole cast, he himself is a freaking giant and his weapon is the best of all.

The halberd/poleaxe (small differences between them) had good range, use in long and short range. It is multifunctional with an axehead the break armour, a pike to thrust armour and a hammerhead to ignore most armour or a hook to sweep enemies or pull foes from a horse.
It is a weapon against infantery and cavalery and it has much power due to a wide swinging radius.

Siegfried-Z
12-23-2018, 04:52 PM
I don't care if it was Shao Kahn himself swinging that blade, a sword cannot cut through metal plating, and a katana/nodachi can especially not do it. Lawbringer would decimate Kensei and Orochi at the same time.

Did i say cutting plate in two ?
I was talking about cutting a clothes human in two, not in plate.

And do you really belive a Guy wearing 20kg of plates plus à 8 kg weapon could touch a Samurai able to deal with fast attacker ? Je could just dance with the air and get tired after 2min.

While a Samurai can easily dictate the pace of the fight and cut where he can because any heavy armor have To let some part weakier in order to let the soldier moove as behind knees, elbow, between legs, neck and very often the face .
Believe me, good luck to fight with a full plate on your face with no angle of vision and difficulty To breath (i say believe me because even in Boxing i hâte wearing the helmet).
I am a biker too and if i would have To fight i would remoove my helmett for sure.


Actually. According to all history and facts. The katana was not a battlefield weapon. It was more ceremonial. It was believe it or not....very ineffective at cutting plate. A fully armoured knight was highly resistant to steel edges. Plate armour however was not as effective against blunt trauma.

Second. The main weapons of samurai were NOT katana. Spears and bows were. The katana was last resort.

Third. Yes the Japanese were excellent sword smiths. But the quality of materials was awful. So they had to be. But a well made European long sword was much much more durable because of this. Yes beautiful weapons.

I'm sorry but i did not say Katana was their main weapon (just talk about Kensei and roch).
But if you talk about that, then you talk about soldiers from the 15 century.
Because it was usefull for big battles specially against Horses.
But the main Samurais weapon has always been the Katana.
A bit less from years after years but Katana is the historic Samurais from Clan weapon and is the Samurai Identity. He is his mind and his philosophy. Not the Yari.

And btw, the real weapon the most used in war were Arcs.

About their steel quality, they have improved them years after years and so far Japan have made the best swords in terms of quality, maniabiliy and efficiency the world has ever see.


Wrong!

Katanas and swords in general can't cut through metall. Not even talking about certain steel alloys, which can multiply the duration of common iron. Lawbringers even have advanced armour production techniques which is "a secret of their order".

Also katanas were back-up weapons, while weapons like the yari (spear) were be primary.



Lawdaddy has it all. The best armour of the whole cast, he himself is a freaking giant and his weapon is the best of all.

The halberd/poleaxe (small differences between them) had good range, use in long and short range. It is multifunctional with an axehead the break armour, a pike to thrust armour and a hammerhead to ignore most armour or a hook to sweep enemies or pull foes from a horse.
It is a weapon against infantery and cavalery and it has much power due to a wide swinging radius.

Your entire comment can find an answer in the 2 above.


To sum it up guys.

I dont know if some of you guys have already practice martial arts at a decent compétitive level but i did.

And their is only one truth To win a fight : Skills, mind and conditionning. The 2 first being the most important .

You doesn't win a fight because you have a better armor or a bigger weapon . Or because you are bigger as Well .

You win a fight because you have the best fighting skills, handed and sword.

That's all . And knights were far under Samurais in terms of skills.

That's not for nothing Samurai area have only been shut down when others had guns.

Drakeawish
12-23-2018, 05:19 PM
I am a biker too and if i would have To fight i would remoove my helmett for sure.


First of all, what does biking have to do with this? And having a helmet on during biking is highly recommended for safety. And why would you be fighting while you are biking?



You doesn't win a fight because you have a better armor or a bigger weapon

So let's say, person A has a knife and no armor at all. Therefore, person A is quick. Person A has had 10 years of training with the knife. But their knife is very short range. On the other hand, person B has metal armor from head to toe and has a 6 foot pole axe. Person B is slow, but can decapitate unarmored enemies in a few swings. Person B has only trained for a week. I'm assuming since person A has more experience and has more skill, person A would win against person B?

Absolutely not. The probability of winning a fight depends on the equipment one has. You even contradicted your own opinion with your last statement about the samurai getting shut out by guns. So you technically are saying that weapons do matter. And they do.

Educate yourself before you make poor assumptions.

Abyssalknight7
12-23-2018, 05:33 PM
A well made suit of armour wont slow you down thats a myth. The amours weight is distributed across the wearers whole body, you can do a back flip in a full suit of armour. If armour slowed you down so much no one would wear it than. You can go on youtube rn and see people run obstacle courses in full plate and beat someone who is just wearing clothes.

Siegfried-Z
12-23-2018, 05:40 PM
First of all, what does biking have to do with this? And having a helmet on during biking is highly recommended for safety. And why would you be fighting while you are biking?



So let's say, person A has a knife and no armor at all. Therefore, person A is quick. Person A has had 10 years of training with the knife. But their knife is very short range. On the other hand, person B has metal armor from head to toe and has a 6 foot pole axe. Person B is slow, but can decapitate unarmored enemies in a few swings. Person B has only trained for a week. I'm assuming since person A has more experience and has more skill, person A would win against person B?

Absolutely not. The probability of winning a fight depends on the equipment one has. You even contradicted your own opinion with your last statement about the samurai getting shut out by guns. So you technically are saying that weapons do matter. And they do.

Educate yourself before you make poor assumptions.

What an arrogant guy we got here!
Try To be respectfull before you make poor assumptions.

So, i have talk about Bike because it was a good example of how i use to wear a helmett and how it can affect human senses.
And i said "if i would have to fight" if you need me to explain what is already wrote.
First lesson done.

Keep going with your example.
If the Mr A has train for 10 years, he would win agaisnt the Mr B which don't even know how to manipulate his weapon in most cases. Yes.

Now i've answered, i have To say your example is pretty bad.
Comparing a Guy in shirt with a knife and a guy in armor with a 6 foots axes is not the same as comparing a Samurai with light/medium Armor and Katana against a Knight with heavy armor and axe. I'm pretty sur you're able to understand that .

To end it.
I didn't contradicted my own opinion saying skills are the most important because we talk here about swords and Armor.

Or course army from another century with guns and bombs can destroy all the knights, vikings and Samurais together without pain.

You just compared things which are not possible too.

Looks you need To take more time To read and let your brain really understand things before writting agressive and wrong things .
Regards

Illyrian_King
12-23-2018, 05:45 PM
To sum it up guys.

I dont know if some of you guys have already practice martial arts at a decent compétitive level but i did.

And their is only one truth To win a fight : Skills, mind and conditionning. The 2 first being the most important .

You doesn't win a fight because you have a better armor or a bigger weapon . Or because you are bigger as Well .

You win a fight because you have the best fighting skills, handed and sword.

That's all . And knights were far under Samurais in terms of skills.

That's not for nothing Samurai area have only been shut down when others had guns.


Mate you have a pretty unrealistic point of view. Samurais in general were dangerous, but more myth then truth.

Same as it is not true that european swords, were total crap while katanas were nightmare slayers. Also just a clichee that Samurais were that fast. All their style was about being fast, but still under human limits. Not even talking about the additional weight of their own leather/wood armour with little metall parts.

Most knights (regarding the feudal system) started learning how to fight with around 9 years. They were not unexperienced by any means.

The classic european knight in full-plate armour with halberd or sword/shield would wreck most samurai with comparable conditions like training time, food, etc.
And yes ... you win a fight pretty much because of superior gear. At least the chances are much higher. A katana CAN NOT cut or damage steel plates, which a halberd can easily breake any kind of armour.

Interesting fact is: In late medieval times swords went pretty much out of use, since armour was available in great surpluses even for peasants. Halberds, axes, hammers and maybe great swords took their place. Swords could not splitt steel armour.

Off topic: I train martial arts in real life, and most asian fighting styles like karate, teak won do, jiu jitsu usually have a very hard time against kick boxing. As much as some people without understanding and too many Bruce Lee movies call it "No Skill".

Just watch MMA fights. Most karate, teak won do, jiu jitsu, .... , fighter get knocked out pretty early.

Siegfried-Z
12-23-2018, 05:47 PM
A well made suit of armour wont slow you down thats a myth. The amours weight is distributed across the wearers whole body, you can do a back flip in a full suit of armour. If armour slowed you down so much no one would wear it than. You can go on youtube rn and see people run obstacle courses in full plate and beat someone who is just wearing clothes.
It is not a myth. The average knigh armor weight were 25kg. Arround 20kg at best for the best armor at the end.

And do you think these guys on youtube or in TV games wear the same armor as old medieval knights ? ..

Illyrian_King
12-23-2018, 06:00 PM
It is not a myth. The average knigh armor weight were 25kg. Arround 20kg at best for the best armor at the end.

And do you think these guys on youtube or in TV games wear the same armor as old medieval knights ? ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzTwBQniLSc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-bnM5SuQkI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls0Y2yzQDtE

Siegfried-Z
12-23-2018, 06:02 PM
Mate you have a pretty unrealistic point of view. Samurais in general were dangerous, but more myth then truth.

Same as it is not true that european swords, were total crap while katanas were nightmare slayers. Also just a clichee that Samurais were that fast. All their style was about being fast, but still under human limits. Not even talking about the additional weight of their own leather/wood armour with little metall parts.

Most knights (regarding the feudal system) started learning how to fight with around 9 years. They were not unexperienced by any means.

The classic european knight in full-plate armour with halberd or sword/shield would wreck most samurai with comparable conditions like training time, food, etc.
And yes ... you win a fight pretty much because of superior gear. At least the chances are much higher. A katana CAN NOT cut or damage steel plates, which a halberd can easily breake any kind of armour.

Interesting fact is: In late medieval times swords went pretty much out of use, since armour was available in great surpluses even for peasants. Halberds, axes, hammers and maybe great swords took their place. Swords could not splitt steel armour.

Off topic: I train martial arts in real life, and most asian fighting styles like karate, teak won do, jiu jitsu usually have a very hard time against kick boxing. As much as some people without understanding and too many Bruce Lee movies call it "No Skill".

Just watch MMA fights. Most karate, teak won do, jiu jitsu, .... , fighter get knocked out pretty early.

Well at least your comment bring some.things To the discussion .
Dont get me wrong, i don't say knights didn't know how to fight .
I say Samurai got better skills.
But then, knights got better armor.

In my opinion, the first one won. That's all i mean.
Of course you are not going To cut the chest of a knight with Katana, but you can do it in some parts. That's Well known and weapon (even knights one) have been reworked in order to exploit that in the history.

But again this is a suggestive topic and eveyone is of course free To believe what je want to . I just bring my stone in a thread no one were interested before.

About your off topic.

There is a différence between swords and hands fight.
Plus why Knight style would be comparable to kick Boxing ?

I've done Karaté and tae kwondo too and yes they are pretty unrealistic.

But i'm a competitor in brazilian jiu jitsu and i train in MMA.
Assuming you look at UFC or others too, how can you say jjb is weak ?
Roger Gracie have won the 3 first Tournaments with Jiu Jitsu and then the fighters in the entire world have start To learn it to improve their efficiency in MMA.

It is far easier to learn kick Boxing than wrestling or JJB ;)

Siegfried-Z
12-23-2018, 06:10 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzTwBQniLSc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-bnM5SuQkI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls0Y2yzQDtE

I did not say they couldnt run or go up on their horses. Good for them they could of course .

But still, for how much time can you do this with 25kg ? How can you defend correcrly when you see barrely nothing and breath with difficulty in your full helmett ?;)

Looks how you can be tired after a single Boxing round if the fight is hard ? Imagine with 25 kg on your body...

Siegfried-Z
12-23-2018, 06:44 PM
https://youtu.be/EDkoj932YFo

They test both long sword and katana agaisnt Ice, leather and steel if you want to der it.

Drakeawish
12-23-2018, 08:08 PM
I didn't contradicted my own opinion saying skills are the most important because we talk here about swords and Armor


You said guns shut out the samurai. The samurai had swords and armor. Guns shut out these pieces of equipment. You have to understand that this was an indirect, but obvious reference. Therefore, I was talking about swords and armor.



Or course army from another century with guns and bombs can destroy all the knights, vikings and Samurais together without pain.


I never mentioned anything about bombs.



You just compared things which are not possible too.


First of all, I just compared them. And second of all, if your saying that comparing a person with a knife and one with a poleaxe is unrealistic, then neither is comparing a knight and a samurai (which existed in completely different time periods and locations).

Abyssalknight7
12-23-2018, 09:19 PM
this guys dumb af guys stop arguing with him, hes just watched a bunch of anime and thinks that samurai are some kind of super humans. Arguing with someone who wont see reason is pointless

NHLGoldenKnight
12-23-2018, 09:32 PM
I don't have intention of ranking all heroes but I will focus on top few and bottom few.

As a faction, Knights would have huge advantage over others, second would be Vikings. Top hero without a question would be Lawbringer. His weapon is most versatile medieval weapon ever with option to cut, poke/stab and crush. Full plated armor and large guy.

Now, who would be second best is harder to tell. My guess would be Warden, Conq or Warlord. Warden has excellent armor, good reach and his longsword wouldn't have trouble against most of the heroes. However, Warlord and Conq have shields which are huge advantage and they still have decent armor, depending on the set we are talking about. If Conq had a mace, he would have been second best, however flail is mostly fictional weapon. There is no enough evidence to suggest it was commonly used in fighting thus it's effectiveness can be questioned. I would probably rate Warden just slightly above Warlord and Warlord slightly above Conq. That's top 4. I would make it top 5 but I am really not sure about 5th spot. Valk is solid contender.

As for weakest heroes, it is even harder so I will not try to rank them. Shaman and Nuxia would be pretty weak, Shinobi probably the weakest. Shaolin as well.

Siegfried-Z
12-23-2018, 10:16 PM
You said guns shut out the samurai. The samurai had swords and armor. Guns shut out these pieces of equipment. You have to understand that this was an indirect, but obvious reference. Therefore, I was talking about swords and armor.



I never mentioned anything about bombs.



First of all, I just compared them. And second of all, if your saying that comparing a person with a knife and one with a poleaxe is unrealistic, then neither is comparing a knight and a samurai (which existed in completely different time periods and locations).

You clearly have problems To understand things.
What i said is comparing a Samurai To a knight is in no way the same as your example you've created.

My purpose was to say skills are the best but if we take the same equipment bracket.

I current slodier with a better guns gonna lost to a better one with a bad gun. That's m'y point .


this guys dumb af guys stop arguing with him, hes just watched a bunch of anime and thinks that samurai are some kind of super humans. Arguing with someone who wont see reason is pointless

Calling me Dumb but didn't bring any argue to the discussion.
Seems legit poor you.

Do you think because maybe 4 of you are together and i am alone in my opinion i am wrong ?
First no and second doesn't matter.

It is a discussion and it looks like most people are unable To handle different opinion without saying To them they are Dumb . . Looks a lack of maturity.

Plus, the link i've post above shut down the thread.

Kargish1
12-23-2018, 10:56 PM
Merry Christmas nerds

Illyrian_King
12-23-2018, 11:13 PM
Well at least your comment bring some.things To the discussion .
Dont get me wrong, i don't say knights didn't know how to fight .
I say Samurai got better skills.
But then, knights got better armor.

In my opinion, the first one won. That's all i mean.
Of course you are not going To cut the chest of a knight with Katana, but you can do it in some parts. That's Well known and weapon (even knights one) have been reworked in order to exploit that in the history.

But again this is a suggestive topic and eveyone is of course free To believe what je want to . I just bring my stone in a thread no one were interested before.

About your off topic.

There is a différence between swords and hands fight.
Plus why Knight style would be comparable to kick Boxing ?

I've done Karaté and tae kwondo too and yes they are pretty unrealistic.

But i'm a competitor in brazilian jiu jitsu and i train in MMA.
Assuming you look at UFC or others too, how can you say jjb is weak ?
Roger Gracie have won the 3 first Tournaments with Jiu Jitsu and then the fighters in the entire world have start To learn it to improve their efficiency in MMA.

It is far easier to learn kick Boxing than wrestling or JJB ;)

My main argument is still, that katanas can not cut full-plate armour. Maybe thrust it, but there is still chain and also leather or a gambelson underneath. Even the limbs and ancles were covered. If there was somewhere an inch uncovered, then it was still hard to get there. You can not completely outmanouver someone facing you directly and "slipping through" without VERY HIGH risk. This is not realistic and more cartoon stuff.

A samurai armour in comparison was much lighter in terms of protection and can be penetrated with most knight weapons.

I am a metallurgy student ... so you can really trust me about the advantages of certain metalls or alloys. That what I want to earn my money with.


Off topic: Hand fights were not really common on battlefields. The main weapon still was the weapon and not your hand.

Why I brought the comparison was, because many people over-romantisize everything around samurai. Western fight techniques are often very underrated.

Kick boxing is comparibly easy to learn because it relies on very basic moves. No jumping, spinning or things that are just supposed to look impressive. But still even these basic moves are not as simple as they look like.


Links: The very point of these 20-25kg is that they are pretty well divided between your whole body. In comparison having a 25kg bag would be an incredible annoyance.
The plates even are tight to your body so there is not much of a momentum.
Belts helped to focus most weight at the belly so you would carry chest/back plate with your shoulders. Your legs (strongest muscels of the body) carry most of the weight.

Of course it makes you tired faster, but at least you are tired instead of dead or crippled after the first little cut.

Roseguard_Cpt
12-23-2018, 11:14 PM
The "above link that shuts down the thread" does forget an important aspect of the longsword. Mordhau, aka the murder stroke. Edged weapons are not effective against plate so the longword was designed to also be able to be held by the blade to use the crossguard as a mace. This could not be done with a Katana due to how fragile it was. Katana's were known to shatter if so much as drawn incorrectly. Inb4 "why didn't it happen in the video then" our modern steel and iron forging techniques remove many impurities from the weapons, meaning both would be more durable than their real historic counterparts.

In counter arguments to you Siegfried people have shown that mobility is not inhibited by the armor very much. To this you responded saying "yeah but how long can they keep that up?" Assuming we are talking about to trained warriors the answer is quite awhile as neither would be throwing themselves about constantly. Samurai were skilled warriors yes, but still human, so a samurai would not be able to "get around the knight and slice weak points in the armor like the knees" as they would not be fast enough to out-speed the knight turning on the spot.

In my opinion the two "S-Tier 1v1 me irl" characters would be LB and Shugoki. Mostly because the LB has the best armor, and the Shugo has to only weapon of the current cast that truly ignores it.

NHLGoldenKnight
12-23-2018, 11:31 PM
People who doubt knight in armor and their fighting techniques shou look at the some of HEMA videos. You would be surprised h9w fast they were and how advanced their techniques were. I trained for a short time and it was amazing experience but overwhelming at the same time because it is much cmore complex than people give it credit. Just because games and movies show knights as slow metal cans who swing around like complete brutes, it doesn't mean it is true. For Honor is guilty of this as well.

bannex19
12-23-2018, 11:44 PM
Shaman would die to the foot soldiers on the field.

Nuxia should be D tier along with shaolin (kung fu isn't combat ready, that's why Bruce Lee mastered it and then pooped all over it). Tiandi in the game should be D tier because nobody would dodge like that in a fight and keep their head.

Kensei would be B tier if he had a yari.

Conq fails only because of the flail... it's not a real weapon.

Warden, LB and Warlord can really be the only S tier with my boy the warlord at the bottom.

The samurai were great at fighting other samurai as the knights were great at fighting other knights. Technologies don't add up.

If you think there was some kind of mystical warrior's secrets exclusive to samurai you need to slow down on the senpai.

Any warriors that lived and died by the sword trained mind body and soul. If they didn't, they died. The samurai the viking and the knight all had the same skull level with their weapons, anybody that thinks otherwise is small minded.

Velentix
12-24-2018, 03:40 AM
Warlord would be s tier imo. He was a viking so any armor he can scavenge would have been added to his ensemble. He is a larger size, but not too big to start slowing him, and mainly he has a shield to go with his sword. This gives him access to both blunt force attacks as well as his sword. Furthermore he can attack while simultaneously defending with the shield. This keeps his opponents from bringing their weapons to their own defense. He can use his shield to move opponents around. Althoug to be fair pretty much any hero with a shield gets s tier imo.

Siegfried-Z
12-24-2018, 11:28 AM
Illyrian, Roseguard, NHL. I understand your point.
I think we all explain or pov on the question.
You believe wearing a heavy armor that with a better protection but slow down a bit with good skills is a better pack than wearing Medium Armor with correct protection only but which allow more speed with very good skills.
I respect that. Everyone can think by his own of course.

Just Illyrian about kick Boxing. I strongly agree kick Boxing is easier To learn because it rely on basics. But wrestling too and is far more difficult.
JJB while having far more things To learn has no fancy things and is the hardest to master.
It is just than stand up fight is far simplier than ground fighting overall ;)

Anyway merry Christmas all ^^

KSI_TheMadKing
12-24-2018, 12:08 PM
https://youtu.be/EDkoj932YFo

They test both long sword and katana agaisnt Ice, leather and steel if you want to der it.

https://youtu.be/Z5tuklPjtAU

Siegfried-Z
12-24-2018, 12:14 PM
https://youtu.be/Z5tuklPjtAU

Empty comment from a YouTube ghost.

ArchDukeInstinct
12-24-2018, 12:27 PM
- Conqueror (Very strong defense with metal armor and shield. The mace isn't necessarily a threatening or strong offensive weapon though)

I'd have to disagree about the mace/flail. You need that very strong blunt damage against armored enemies.

Jazz117Volkov
12-24-2018, 03:45 PM
Man in real life Kensei and Orochi would destroy everyone else.

People have To realize no others people in the world have mastered as high as Samurais the sword art. Even the Chinese except some monks maybe.

Plus a good Katana could split someone in two, what even the big Lawbro with his 2 hands Hallebarde couldnt.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PointedPlumpGannet-small.gif

For Honor "in real life" is a nonsense discussion because For Honor is designed around dueling and brawling with warrior types taken from various eras and roles. The Warlord and Lawbringer, for example, would be effective on the battlefield, whereas Orochi and Peacekeeper would be duelists. Pitching them against each other in a hypothetical "real" scenario would go in the favour of the master of that scenario. It's like David and Goliath. David didn't defeat Goliath because God willed it, he did it because ranged infantry are trained and implemented into the army specifically to defeat large brutish opposition who prefer close range. That fight was always going to end in David's favour because the David class exists to defeat the Goliath class.

Beyond that, it'd come down to the individual warrior's preparation and resolve, provided each warrior's equipment wasn't too favourable in one direction. Lawbringer vs Raider, for example; the Raider wouldn't last long against a steel beast like the Lawbringer due to his/her exceptionally poor equipment. On the other hand, Warlord, Orochi, or Warden could be a very interesting fight. That would come down to how well the warrior could use their kit, and how well they had prepared. Moreover, western martial arts, particularly the dueling arts with longswords (which the Warden is a master of) are very deep and old arts, refined over generations. These techniques and teachings absolutely teach the importance of mind, body, and spirit, and the discipline and application of each, just as much as the Samurai arts, to say otherwise is simply ignorance. Educate yourself.

ChocoPanda12
12-24-2018, 04:41 PM
I'd have to disagree about the mace/flail. You need that very strong blunt damage against armored enemies.

Based on your comment and my own opinion, I have come to agree that the flail is a rather strong weapon. Flails are deceptive because the user makes a charged movement which skilled users can take this to their advantage. They have the advantage to instill some fear because you can't see properly where the end is. In warfare, you want to see what comes to you so you can prepare. Flails make this hard.

Therefore, I decided to modify the description. However, I don't believe that flails are a significant threat to armored foes. Effective hits seem to come out of the charge (not just in for honor) while neutral hits are rather weak.

In conclusion, I've decided to leave conqueror in A-tier. I may change this if other reasonable opinions arise.

Drakeawish
12-24-2018, 05:15 PM
skills are the best


I guess you will stick to your own opinion. But in my own, skills are definitely not stronger than the weapons themselves.

Perhaps, to fit your satisfication, Kensei vs Lawbringer in real life is a good example to use. Lawbringer would most definitely win because he has stronger armor and strongest weapon. Speed and skill is rather underminded once you get sliced in a single hit.

Feedmeyourcows2
12-24-2018, 05:43 PM
I swear to god, every time a discussion like this comes up, you've got THAT ONE GUY saying 'A katana is jesus incarnate' 'Samurais were so skillful they could beat anything' And my personal favorite 'Katanas can cut through plate armor'

Illyrian_King
12-24-2018, 06:21 PM
Illyrian, Roseguard, NHL. I understand your point.
I think we all explain or pov on the question.
You believe wearing a heavy armor that with a better protection but slow down a bit with good skills is a better pack than wearing Medium Armor with correct protection only but which allow more speed with very good skills.
I respect that. Everyone can think by his own of course.

Just Illyrian about kick Boxing. I strongly agree kick Boxing is easier To learn because it rely on basics. But wrestling too and is far more difficult.
JJB while having far more things To learn has no fancy things and is the hardest to master.
It is just than stand up fight is far simplier than ground fighting overall ;)

Anyway merry Christmas all ^^

The key point is that the knight armour is not penetratable by classic samurai weapons, but the samurai armour is penetratable by classic knight weapons.

If I had to face a Lawbringer with something else then a halberd too, then a warhammer (talking about real ones and not that 80kg thing from the Harbinger picture) with a kite shield would be my choice. Blunt is the answer to full-plate armour ... or pretty heavy axes. Maybe a crossbow ^^

I personally never tried wrestling, but some ground fight is definitely a good thing to know. First I wanted to combine kickboxing with Judo, but Judo is not applicable in real life until you reach a really good level after quiet some years. Now I am mixing in whatever works, not even looking if it's Jiu Jitsu or whatever :rolleyes:
It just has to be applicable on a solid base of kickboxing.

Siegfried-Z
12-24-2018, 06:33 PM
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PointedPlumpGannet-small.gif

For Honor "in real life" is a nonsense discussion because For Honor is designed around dueling and brawling with warrior types taken from various eras and roles. The Warlord and Lawbringer, for example, would be effective on the battlefield, whereas Orochi and Peacekeeper would be duelists. Pitching them against each other in a hypothetical "real" scenario would go in the favour of the master of that scenario. It's like David and Goliath. David didn't defeat Goliath because God willed it, he did it because ranged infantry are trained and implemented into the army specifically to defeat large brutish opposition who prefer close range. That fight was always going to end in David's favour because the David class exists to defeat the Goliath class.

Beyond that, it'd come down to the individual warrior's preparation and resolve, provided each warrior's equipment wasn't too favourable in one direction. Lawbringer vs Raider, for example; the Raider wouldn't last long against a steel beast like the Lawbringer due to his/her exceptionally poor equipment. On the other hand, Warlord, Orochi, or Warden could be a very interesting fight. That would come down to how well the warrior could use their kit, and how well they had prepared. Moreover, western martial arts, particularly the dueling arts with longswords (which the Warden is a master of) are very deep and old arts, refined over generations. These techniques and teachings absolutely teach the importance of mind, body, and spirit, and the discipline and application of each, just as much as the Samurai arts, to say otherwise is simply ignorance. Educate yourself.

You just arrive in this conversation and end your comment by "educate yourself" .
It's funny how people like to be arrogant behind a screen.
The only time i speak like that To someone is because he has this attitude first.

1/ you put a laughing gif but said yourself LB vs Roch would be an interesting fight.
2/as always You seems not able to read something correctly.
Never one time i said knights didn't know how to fight. Never. I only said in my opinion Samurais have mastered the sword art further. That's all. Maybe like that your brain can understand properly my pov.



I guess you will stick to your own opinion. But in my own, skills are definitely not stronger than the weapons themselves.

Perhaps, to fit your satisfication, Kensei vs Lawbringer in real life is a good example to use. Lawbringer would most definitely win because he has stronger armor and strongest weapon. Speed and skill is rather underminded once you get sliced in a single hit.

Yes as i said skills are above equipments. Thats my opinion but of course i can understand others think it is not which i respect man.

The probleme is people on this thread primarly respond as if i said Knights were little child without their own sword art.
I've never said that . Only that Samurais one is, in m'y opinion, better.


I swear to god, every time a discussion like this comes up, you've got THAT ONE GUY saying 'A katana is jesus incarnate' 'Samurais were so skillful they could beat anything' And my personal favorite 'Katanas can cut through plate armor'

Each time in a discussion, you've for that one Guy who comes at the end and say wrong things because he just reads 20% of what have been written.
1/ i've never said such ridiculous things as a Katana is godlike etc
2/i Said overall the Samurai sword art was better than knights one. I didn't say they couldnt ever loose a fight.
3/i've never said Katana can cut plate armor.
My point was it could exploit some weak part such as longsword because they couldnt cut it as Well .

To sum everything, my opinion is just : i belive Kensei would win with arround 70% of chances against a warden or LB.
Some belive the opposite and it is just a subjective pov anyway so each one can be respected.

Blaming me for my pov would be stupid because then are you not if you think you are right ?
A pov is a pov and not facts.

Please if you want to comment try to read properly before, then think objectivly and then write something constructive.
Not a wrong and childish comment.

Jazz117Volkov
12-24-2018, 07:22 PM
You just arrive in this conversation and end your comment by "educate yourself" .It was just a suggestion, no need to be offended.


It's funny how people like to be arrogant behind a screen.It's definitely not just behind a screen.


2/as always You seems not able to read something correctly. Interesting...


but said yourself LB vs Roch would be an interesting fight. I never said that.

bannex19
12-24-2018, 07:32 PM
Kensei nodachi was the same thing as the claymore, used to dismount warriors. The nodachi has no business in a real duel as with the claymore. Furthermore the longsword was developed with armored opponents in mind. The stout spine and pointed top were used to puncture armor. Nothing about the katana was made to attack a plated opponent.

The ONLY samurai weapon that would have success against a LB or Warden would be the Yari which isn't in the game. The kanobo would as well but its pretty slow compared.

The warden's longsword was as much a club as it was a sword. It's close to as versatile as the LB poleaxe in some situations.

Can we stop with the "omg this convo is such bs" comments? Obviously this is just for fun and maybe you might learn something about the true purpose of some of these weapons.

A for honor situation (duels and small scale skirmishes) is what this thread is referring to. Talking about battlefield tactics or other unrelated hypotheticals just muddies the convo.

The flail was a farming tool, yes it saw some battlefield use but it was way to unwieldy to achieve any measure of popularity. The mace and morning star were much more useful.

As far as solid cross factional matchups in a duel situation I'd have to say:

LB vs Raider or JJ
Warden vs Valk
Conq vs Warlord
PK vs Orochi or Nuxia
Highlander vs Shugoki or Kensei
Zerk vs Aramusha
Glad vs Nobushi or Shaolin
Cent vs Shinobi or Tiandi

Shaman vs a week long camping trip

The_Sun_Danc3
12-24-2018, 09:01 PM
Wrong!

Katanas and swords in general can't cut through metall. Not even talking about certain steel alloys, which can multiply the duration of common iron. Lawbringers even have advanced armour production techniques which is "a secret of their order".

Also katanas were back-up weapons, while weapons like the yari (spear) were be primary.



Lawdaddy has it all. The best armour of the whole cast, he himself is a freaking giant and his weapon is the best of all.

The halberd/poleaxe (small differences between them) had good range, use in long and short range. It is multifunctional with an axehead the break armour, a pike to thrust armour and a hammerhead to ignore most armour or a hook to sweep enemies or pull foes from a horse.
It is a weapon against infantery and cavalery and it has much power due to a wide swinging radius.

He would be so heavy and slow that he wouldn’t really be able to catch most people, multiply that by the fact he has virtually no peripheral vision, someone could quite literally just run around him or run up behind him and stab a heavy sword through any weak point in his armor, cut off a limb at pretty much any joint, smash him on the head with something heavy, or with a sword like the wardens they could just stab through the plate with enough force (They weren’t that thick due to weight distribution)
Lawbringer would be intimidating due to his armor, but he would have little range of motion, would tire relatively easily and he’d be very slow in general. I’d place him in high B tier. He’d only excel at killing foot soldiers

ArchDukeInstinct
12-24-2018, 09:13 PM
Based on your comment and my own opinion, I have come to agree that the flail is a rather strong weapon. Flails are deceptive because the user makes a charged movement which skilled users can take this to their advantage. They have the advantage to instill some fear because you can't see properly where the end is. In warfare, you want to see what comes to you so you can prepare. Flails make this hard.

No they're terrified because that's a solid payload of iron with extra acceleration from the chain about to deal all of its momentum into one point of impact and KO them regardless of armor.

The_Sun_Danc3
12-24-2018, 09:16 PM
Also you can tell people have absolutely no idea what they’re talking about because they act as if players armor was impenetrable. Plate, like chain mail is good against slashing attacks. You can’t gash plate armor, but plate armor wasn’t that thick. You guys talk like plate armor is the thickness of a shield, if it were it would be an over 300 pound suit and good luck walking or swinging your arms in that. You people obviously haven’t worked with metal either.
Plate armor can be poked and it can be chopped through, which is why the LB uses a halberd. The beserker and the raider would be able to chop into the LB armor with a hard enough swing as long as their axe was decent. They would have the advantage of speed, mobility and vision. Although on the battlefield with many other soldiers around they would be open to getting slashed, stabbed or hit by other soldiers due to having lots of exposure on their body.

Plate armor is not an impenetrable force field, like Kevlar is not bulletproof. It is designed to be an extra layer of protection, but it is not undefeatable

KSI_TheMadKing
12-24-2018, 09:23 PM
I think my favorite part of the whole conversation is that one guy is saying everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But opinion has nothing to do with fact. The fact is that it's not impossible for one of the samurai in for honor to win in a fight against a lb or a warden wearing better armor and having a better weapon and being a foot and a half taller then most of the cast. But Its unlikely that it would happen. Well made plate armor could withstand alot of punishment on top of everything else that was put on underneath. Samurai were not faster and in alot of cases there armor was the same weight or even heavier.

Also this has been done already by Game Theory.

https://youtu.be/gwoGVWgK8v8

And heres someone else's who know more than most of us on medieval technology. (Its in response to the first one if you want watch both videos)

https://youtu.be/18c3S7JiRNA

So you can say that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But opinion has nothing to do with the fact don't mix the two up. There is no subjective POV here. Next your going to be saying that the shugoki is the strongest in the game because hes the biggest guy weight wise.

Feedmeyourcows2
12-24-2018, 11:31 PM
You just arrive in this conversation and end your comment by "educate yourself" .
It's funny how people like to be arrogant behind a screen.
The only time i speak like that To someone is because he has this attitude first.

1/ you put a laughing gif but said yourself LB vs Roch would be an interesting fight.
2/as always You seems not able to read something correctly.
Never one time i said knights didn't know how to fight. Never. I only said in my opinion Samurais have mastered the sword art further. That's all. Maybe like that your brain can understand properly my pov.




Yes as i said skills are above equipments. Thats my opinion but of course i can understand others think it is not which i respect man.

The probleme is people on this thread primarly respond as if i said Knights were little child without their own sword art.
I've never said that . Only that Samurais one is, in m'y opinion, better.



Each time in a discussion, you've for that one Guy who comes at the end and say wrong things because he just reads 20% of what have been written.
1/ i've never said such ridiculous things as a Katana is godlike etc
2/i Said overall the Samurai sword art was better than knights one. I didn't say they couldnt ever loose a fight.
3/i've never said Katana can cut plate armor.
My point was it could exploit some weak part such as longsword because they couldnt cut it as Well .

To sum everything, my opinion is just : i belive Kensei would win with arround 70% of chances against a warden or LB.
Some belive the opposite and it is just a subjective pov anyway so each one can be respected.

Blaming me for my pov would be stupid because then are you not if you think you are right ?
A pov is a pov and not facts.

Please if you want to comment try to read properly before, then think objectivly and then write something constructive.
Not a wrong and childish comment.

Sorry, I recall you saying 'Orachi and kensei' would destory everything. How would they 'destory' the lawbringer? Cutting through the gaps in plate armor? It is possible but not viable. A knight of average skill and having full plate armor would probably beat a better trained samurai due to the massive advantage he has over him. Prove me wrong.

Alternatively you can say some untranslatable mess like 'Blaming me for my pov would be stupid because then are you not if you think you are right ? '

Hormly
12-25-2018, 02:56 AM
Anyone with plate armor is S tier.

Anyone with no armor is F tier.

Chain mail is also excellent at protecting yourself from blades, and shields make all the difference in the world, so I'd lump my WL into S as well.

Raider? Sorry big guy, fighting with your shirt off is a bad idea.

Shug? Minimum armor, a stupid club that leaves his hands exposed, and a body clearly more suited for the buffet than the battlefield.

Shinobi? LOL. Two garden tools wrapping around your wrist, tell me how that works out when the guy you flung them at grabs a hold of it

Orochi and kensai? Katanas were notoriously garbagey weapons, but at least they have decent armor. still, short range and no shield is bad news, and your weapon is completely nullified by steel armor.

Gladiator? The one handed trident is a bad idea, as is his useless little shield, and much like raider, fighting bare chested = dead

Nuxia? Hook swords are one of the stupidest things ever invented, an absurd weapon.

Shaolin? A staff won't hurt anybody, he has no armor, and he holds his weapon behind his back like a moron.

Tiandi? Dances around like an idiot and carries no shield but appears to have functional armor and a good sword. I'd say his lack of a shield and his ridiculously over complicated fighting style would be his doom.

Zerker? People forget he is actually wearing a chain mail shirt, but two axes is a bad idea

I'd say the lawbro stands above everyone, his armor would protect against all other weapons, and his polearm is suited to kill everyone else in the cast.

Worst is probably the shaman, she's just completely absurd in all ways, try a flying headbutt with no helmet against someone with a sword.

This is a fun discussion 😄 I would encourage everyone to check out metatrons video on this topic

Siegfried-Z
12-25-2018, 11:14 AM
Sorry, I recall you saying 'Orachi and kensei' would destory everything. How would they 'destory' the lawbringer? Cutting through the gaps in plate armor? It is possible but not viable. A knight of average skill and having full plate armor would probably beat a better trained samurai due to the massive advantage he has over him. Prove me wrong.

Alternatively you can say some untranslatable mess like 'Blaming me for my pov would be stupid because then are you not if you think you are right ? '

Well i could just answer a skiller Guy with less armor would beat an average one with heavy armor. Proove me wrong .

Skills above everything .

bannex19
12-25-2018, 06:35 PM
If chinese battle tactics were so impressive why did they have to build a giant wall to keep the mongolians out?

Feedmeyourcows2
12-25-2018, 07:02 PM
Well i could just answer a skiller Guy with less armor would beat an average one with heavy armor. Proove me wrong .

Skills above everything .

No. It doesn't work like that.

An average fighter with plate armor would easily make short work of a skilled samurai. Plate armor generally has very little weaknesses. Take the law bringer for example. His entire body is covered in plate with few gaps. While the samurai would have to worry about his entire body against someone like that, the guy in plate armor would only have to worry about the little gaps in his armour (Armpits, back of the knees, etc etc) That is a severe gap which can't be made up with just 'pure skill' unless the dude in plate armor is completely incompetent when it comes to combat. And what you're forgetting is that most people who had plate armor weren't incompetent and were generally good fighters. If people could afford plate armor back in the day, they sure as hell could afford training. Adding to this, the katana just isn't designed to kill someone in plate armor while plate armor was specifically designed to protect people against swords. You can't logically expect a samurai to bridge the armor gap with just 'pure skill' While a samurai may be able to win it would be extremely unlikely and sure as hell wouldn't be 70% of the time. You're overestimating the samurai.

And no, plate armor doesn't slow you down despite common belief.

Tundra 793
12-25-2018, 08:00 PM
If chinese battle tactics were so impressive why did they have to build a giant wall to keep the mongolians out?

Same reason the Greatest nation on Earth, 'Murica, has to build one.

Naw kidding. This is a fun thread, I'll be back later with a proper reply.

ShinobiLion
12-25-2018, 09:35 PM
In real life , Shinobi would have the restrictions he has in the game. Watch the movie Ninja Assassin, they use shinobi’s Weapon. Now that’s what i believe Shinobi should be like. It’s in English too so no need to worry about subtitles. For those who don’t like to read.

papa_joseph1
12-26-2018, 04:45 PM
Well everybody seems to be missing something painfuly obvious, Law Bringer is not just wearing *any* plate armor, he's wearing the breastplate of a set of jousting armor, hence the collared V at the front of his throat, to keep a lance from going up into his helmet, historically speaking the breastplate of a set of jousting armor was considerably thicker then a set of combat plate, as the impact it was meant to take is many times that of what a person could ever strike with [a 1 ton horse plus the guy ontop of it at full gallop hitting on a tiny point with his lance, a good set of jousting armor meant you came out unharmed, that's nuts.]

So the guy a page back, no, nobody in the cast could just cut though LB's armor, it would be physically impossible.

It does make Law Bringer look like even more of a space marine though, then again, he can dead lift Goki off the ground without much issue, his strength is insane.

@Siegfried-Z

Go look at the Law Bringer model, anywhere not covered in plate mail has chains or chains with gambenson covering it running under it, you do understand that you can't cut though chain mail either right? I feel as if people often forget that armor is made of the exact same stuff swords are made out of so you can't exactly slice though an object of equal hardness, and if the chain's hardness was greater, whelp, you done dulled your blade.

Plate armor got to a point where it got so good that knights stopped carrying swords for the most part and returned to just big spiked daggers for prying plates open, big hammers for blunt force impact, flails and other dedicated anti armor weapons,

TLDR, Armor is way stronger then you give it credit for,and you are overestimating how effective a Katana/Whatever sword is.

On a related note, you don't seem to understand the term Samurai at all, like not even close, you know a Samurai could never put a set of armor on, carry a sword on a sash as a badge of office and just run his lord's businesses right? it was a title, not a rank or anything like that, to be a "Samurai" is just your social class, it gave you privileges, it did not necessarily mean you where a dedicated Warrior.

Your classical version of a knight are ironically very space marine like, they are choosen as children to train under a knight as a squire and it could be a decade or more before he ever even has the right by a lord to be given the title of Knight, and remember, Europe had a habbit of fighting itself for CENTURIES at a time, it's why arms and armor advanced the way it did, a constant state of war.....Japan not so much, their armor and weapons really went mostly unchanged for the better part of 600 years, because a War in mainland japan was always a civil one, never was it really nation states battling each other to the death, it was just a power struggle, there was no arms race because everybody had the same stuff.

The_Sun_Danc3
12-26-2018, 05:32 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzTwBQniLSc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-bnM5SuQkI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls0Y2yzQDtE

Okay first off those guys are nowhere near as armored at the lawbringer. Second their armor doesn’t even cover 75% of their body, they have a bunch of exposure points. 3rd, I said you couldn’t slash it with a sword, but I didn’t see any of them try to chop it with even a shaman sized hatchet or poke it with anything.
If the lawbringer was 100% covered (even at the joints) he would have very low range of motion. His armor would be a lot heavier than 50 lbs
(Have you seen how small a 50 lb iron dumbbell is? Now imagine stretching just that amount of iron OVER YOUR ENTIRE BODY. It’d have to be pretty thin right? Lawbringer’s looks like it’s close to 300-400 lbs)
He would be SIGNIFICANTLY slower and be exhausted from just walking (Have you ever tried to carry just two 45 lb plates across a gym? Now multiply that by four. Now that’s just walking, we’re not even talking about in combat)

The point is, artistically, lawbringer is just a fantasy. There is no way that suit of armor could have ever existed. It’s a hyper exaggerated character for a hyper exaggerated combat game.

Those suits of armor in those YouTube videos weren’t even Conquerer worthy. So those videos are basically worthless

papa_joseph1
12-26-2018, 06:28 PM
Okay first off those guys are nowhere near as armored at the lawbringer. Second their armor doesn’t even cover 75% of their body, they have a bunch of exposure points. 3rd, I said you couldn’t slash it with a sword, but I didn’t see any of them try to chop it with even a shaman sized hatchet or poke it with anything.
If the lawbringer was 100% covered (even at the joints) he would have very low range of motion. His armor would be a lot heavier than 50 lbs
(Have you seen how small a 50 lb iron dumbbell is? Now imagine stretching just that amount of iron OVER YOUR ENTIRE BODY. It’d have to be pretty thin right? Lawbringer’s looks like it’s close to 300-400 lbs)
He would be SIGNIFICANTLY slower and be exhausted from just walking (Have you ever tried to carry just two 45 lb plates across a gym? Now multiply that by four. Now that’s just walking, we’re not even talking about in combat)

The point is, artistically, lawbringer is just a fantasy. There is no way that suit of armor could have ever existed. It’s a hyper exaggerated character for a hyper exaggerated combat game.

Those suits of armor in those YouTube videos weren’t even Conquerer worthy. So those videos are basically worthless

You know a modern Level 4 rated ballistic vest and armor package, with mag carriers, junk on the carrier plus a helmet weighs more then 15th and 16th century plate armor right? I carried a hundred and fifty pounds of armor, gear and other garbage though Afghanistan and i was still able to put up a fight, the Law Bringer is a gaint and raised from childhood to be a warrior first and formost, the guy can lift Shogoki without breaking a sweat, he's the biggest meanest guy on the roster

https://i.imgur.com/kB6pfTS.jpg

This example suit of armor is what a complete plate harness looks like, this example was made for the King of Sweden, it only weighs about 55 pounds, and that is on the heavier side as it's jousting armor, it's considerably thicker then normal plates.

NHLGoldenKnight
12-26-2018, 09:45 PM
Okay first off those guys are nowhere near as armored at the lawbringer. Second their armor doesn’t even cover 75% of their body, they have a bunch of exposure points. 3rd, I said you couldn’t slash it with a sword, but I didn’t see any of them try to chop it with even a shaman sized hatchet or poke it with anything.
If the lawbringer was 100% covered (even at the joints) he would have very low range of motion. His armor would be a lot heavier than 50 lbs
(Have you seen how small a 50 lb iron dumbbell is? Now imagine stretching just that amount of iron OVER YOUR ENTIRE BODY. It’d have to be pretty thin right? Lawbringer’s looks like it’s close to 300-400 lbs)
He would be SIGNIFICANTLY slower and be exhausted from just walking (Have you ever tried to carry just two 45 lb plates across a gym? Now multiply that by four. Now that’s just walking, we’re not even talking about in combat)

The point is, artistically, lawbringer is just a fantasy. There is no way that suit of armor could have ever existed. It’s a hyper exaggerated character for a hyper exaggerated combat game.

Those suits of armor in those YouTube videos weren’t even Conquerer worthy. So those videos are basically worthless

Sorry but wtf? Full plated armor is fantasy, since when exactly?

Not just that it existed but it was way more useful than you think. It was best distributed armor in terms of weight in history and most advanced in terms of metallurgy. It was usually custom fit and all necessary gaps would be covered with gambeson and on top of that would be chainmail. It was nearly impossible to cut it with sword, or even to thrust it. Most who would fall in battle would do so because of blunt trauma by being hit with war hammers, axes, etc. There is a reason why there was a lot more prisoners of war as armor was becoming more advanced. It was simply too hard to kill someone, unless someone is already knocked out and you open their visor and execute them.

Tundra 793
12-27-2018, 02:25 AM
For Honor "in real life" is a nonsense discussion

For Honor itself is nonsense! Skeletons in cowboy hats and pirate hat Vikings run rampant! Cats and dogs living together!

'Tis all in good fun, and I do enjoy these types of threads. I mean, it's either this or another 50 threads complaining about the balance. We could use the variety around here.

It's also a great excuse to educate people on how absolute ****e real life katanas were.

Rain-Dragon
12-27-2018, 03:15 AM
Real Life For Honor Tier List:

Hello. The following is a tier list based off of how powerful these characters would be in real life. The higher the tier, the stronger the hero. Lower tiers are obviously weaker. Feel free to comment opinions.

S-Tier (God Tier):

- Lawbringer (Armor won't dent easily. The pole axe will leave foes hit hard. He will cleave his enemies, with a weapon that can swing and thrust effectively)
- Tiandi (Armor is metal, but light enough to be quite mobile. With a sword that can be effectively wielded with one hand, quick cuts can severely damage joints)
- Warden (Strong metal armor and a strong, long metal weapon? The perfect offense and defense)
- Jiang Jun (A tall, broad figure who can swing the guan dao to cleave foes in a few hits. Far range, devastating blows)

A-Tier:

- Highlander (The claymore is a strong heavy weapon that can land hard hitting blows on foes. His lack of armor allows him to move faster with such a heavy weapon, but leaves his defense rather weak)
- Conqueror (Very strong defense with metal armor and shield. The flail is a strong, deceptive weapon. Can deal blunt damage to armored foes. However, the flail is ineffective as a quick consecutive hitter to armored foes. May lack far offensive range. Charging consumes time)
- Warlord (The shield and sword provide a strong offense and defense. His armor is decently tough. His lack of range is a significant disadvantage)
- Nuxia (The hook swords allow for varied ranged attacks. The lightweight of the swords and armor allow for quick movements. Hooks can reposition foes rather effectively in real life. Disadvantaged in defense)
- Orochi (With flexible, plated armor, the mobility potential is high. Rather balanced offense and defense. Katana is strong, but doesn't cleave foes or damage armor easily)
- Centurion (Metal armor and gladius is light enough for good mobility. Metal fist provides another offensive technique. Lack of range leaves offense disadvantaged. Gladius can deal good damage to joints and has dent potential)

B-Tier:

- Kensei (Wood armor is a weak defense. The katana has long range and can deal good damage, so offense is decently good, but can't cleave foes or damage armor easily. Less quick than other katanas)
- Shugoki (Kanabo will hit hard, doesn't cleave foes or damage armor easily. High knock back is a defensive technique. High body weight weakens mobility drastically. Wood armor is a weak defense)
- Nobushi (Naginata has long range and can cut un armored foes well. Struggles against armor and shields. No armor herself, her defense is very weak. Hidden stance would not be effective in real life)
- Valkyrie (Spear has long range and is thin enough to make blocking difficult. Armor is somewhat weak, but allows for higher mobility. Small shield is rather weak, but still somewhat effective and improves defense to some extent)

C-Tier:

- Shaolin (Staff leaves somewhat of a blow and foes. Light armor allows for high mobility. Offensive advantage with long range. The fact that the staff can be held in the middle allows for unique, effective ways to hit enemies)
- Raider (Long axe will leave heavy blows and foes, cleave and dent armor. Has lack of armor which allows for high mobility. The fact that raider's skin is exposed is a major defensive disadvantage)
- Gladiator (Same defensive issue as raider except that the shield provides higher defense. Shield/Buckler is also a good offensive tool and the trident is a unique, lol weapon. High mobility)
- Aramusha (Dual katanas doesn't provide any more advantage than a singular katana would. Lack of armor is a defensive issue. Straw hat puts vision to a slight disadvantage)

D-Tier:

- Berserker (A shirt doesn't provide any defense. Axes can not effectively block. Lack of range is an offensive disadvantage. Dual axes don't provide any more advantage than a singular axe. Weak offense, weak defense, high mobility)
- Shinobi (Same as berserker except with a kusarigama)
- Peacekeeper (Same as berserker except with daggers)
- Shaman (Same as berserker except with hatchet and dagger)

That's a load of BS.
You are making tons of assumptions without knowing the exact material and architecture of their equipment, which would make a huge difference.

mrbobyub
12-27-2018, 10:11 AM
Okay first off those guys are nowhere near as armored at the lawbringer. Second their armor doesn’t even cover 75% of their body, they have a bunch of exposure points. 3rd, I said you couldn’t slash it with a sword, but I didn’t see any of them try to chop it with even a shaman sized hatchet or poke it with anything.
If the lawbringer was 100% covered (even at the joints) he would have very low range of motion. His armor would be a lot heavier than 50 lbs
(Have you seen how small a 50 lb iron dumbbell is? Now imagine stretching just that amount of iron OVER YOUR ENTIRE BODY. It’d have to be pretty thin right? Lawbringer’s looks like it’s close to 300-400 lbs)
He would be SIGNIFICANTLY slower and be exhausted from just walking (Have you ever tried to carry just two 45 lb plates across a gym? Now multiply that by four. Now that’s just walking, we’re not even talking about in combat)

The point is, artistically, lawbringer is just a fantasy. There is no way that suit of armor could have ever existed. It’s a hyper exaggerated character for a hyper exaggerated combat game.

Those suits of armor in those YouTube videos weren’t even Conquerer worthy. So those videos are basically worthless

Did we watch the same videos? Those armors covered more than 75% of their bodies, though some were worn incomplete, lacking helmet or sabatons. Those exposure points ensure free movement, and on many of those suits the gaps that were "easy" to get at were covered in mail. Underneath all that metal would be a gambeson (padded jacket) which helps further distribute force of impact. Those armors were mostly 15th century full plate harnesses with a few of them being 14th century transitional plate harnesses which did actually on average, weight around 45-55 lbs., all of which were battlefield armors. Specialized tournament armors weighed up to around 110 lbs., and unlike the field armors greatly inhibited movement, often especially the left arm and neck. Modern troops often carry more weight than that in combat and are still quite effective. The reason carrying 90lbs. worth of gym weights is difficult to carry around is because it isn't dispersed at all, where medieval armor was.

Despite the plates being quite thin, they are made extremely well and, with the aid of padding underneath, disperse force very effectively, if a strike even lands solidly, given that the plates have very few flat surfaces. The edge of a sword will have absolutely no effect; it will not cut, and unless the sword is a greatsword it won't have any where near enough force of impact to do much of anything. Plate armor will not be pierced by a sword either, if a sword must be used, it would be half-sworded to guide and drive the point into a gap or grapple. Alternatively it would be wielded like a makeshift hammer where striking the helmet with the pommel could concuss the opponent (mordhau aka murder-stroke). The shaman's dinky little hatchet would honestly fare worse. 14th and 15th century knights wielded weapons like the pollaxe while on foot for a reason (like lawbringer).

Siegfried-Z
12-27-2018, 11:19 AM
No. It doesn't work like that.

An average fighter with plate armor would easily make short work of a skilled samurai. Plate armor generally has very little weaknesses. Take the law bringer for example. His entire body is covered in plate with few gaps. While the samurai would have to worry about his entire body against someone like that, the guy in plate armor would only have to worry about the little gaps in his armour (Armpits, back of the knees, etc etc) That is a severe gap which can't be made up with just 'pure skill' unless the dude in plate armor is completely incompetent when it comes to combat. And what you're forgetting is that most people who had plate armor weren't incompetent and were generally good fighters. If people could afford plate armor back in the day, they sure as hell could afford training. Adding to this, the katana just isn't designed to kill someone in plate armor while plate armor was specifically designed to protect people against swords. You can't logically expect a samurai to bridge the armor gap with just 'pure skill' While a samurai may be able to win it would be extremely unlikely and sure as hell wouldn't be 70% of the time. You're overestimating the samurai.

And no, plate armor doesn't slow you down despite common belief.

Yes it is.
Do you know before most of fights ended to the ground before ?
Usually knights were landing 2 or 3 hit with their swords, then get closer and fall down together. That's the reality of what was happening .
While it wasn't the case for Samurais .

Wearing a plate armor is far, very far
From making you godlike.

Plus, "in real life", in reality, at this period, no one would be as big and tall as LB is.

I strongly believe what i said : Skills and mobility makes you more dangerous than being in robocop armor.

Now i already said i can respect others pov. But some of you just keep going with the same argues back and then this thread is the same for 3 pages already.

mrbobyub
12-27-2018, 12:34 PM
Yes it is.
Do you know before most of fights ended to the ground before ?
Usually knights were landing 2 or 3 hit with their swords, then get closer and fall down together. That's the reality of what was happening .
While it wasn't the case for Samurais .

Wearing a plate armor is far, very far
From making you godlike.

Plus, "in real life", in reality, at this period, no one would be as big and tall as LB is.

I strongly believe what i said : Skills and mobility makes you more dangerous than being in robocop armor.

Now i already said i can respect others pov. But some of you just keep going with the same argues back and then this thread is the same for 3 pages already.

Knights were quite mobile; field plate was not much heavier than the armor of a warrior of the samurai class, but was far more protective, but it also was not any where near restrictive enough to inhibit their combat effectiveness. Not only that, but they were not less skilled than a samurai. Given that both started their training at a similar age at around seven years old they were about equally skilled with their respective armors and weapons, so if differences between skill and mobility were small, then my money would definitely be on the guy with the better equipment. When fighting with swords (which in both Europe and Japan were sidearms, unless they were true two handed swords like the Iberian montante, German zweihander, or the Japanese nodachi) knights went to grappling because swords are very poor weapons for fighting against armor. They will neither cut nor pierce plate, and piercing real riveted mail is, while certainly possible, is quite difficult with a sword. They half-sword and try to take their opponent to the ground to have far easier access to gaps in armor, like the groin or face, but grappling was quite important for samurai as well.

In reality, late medieval knights were primarily fully armored heavy cavalry and wielded lances, heavy infantry second and most often wielded pollaxes, and swordsman last. Samurai on the other hand were mounted archers first, heavy infantry second and often wielded the yari (spear) or naginata like what the nobushi uses, and swordsman last, like the knights. In terms of military technology, Japan was a little behind largely due to poor quality raw materials to make the arms and isolation for many years. Technology advanced significantly faster in Europe due to being in a constant arms race with many different cultures and also had easier access to more high quality metals.

There comes a problem regarding the samurai bow if it were to fight armored opponents, and that is simply any projectile weapon short of a thousand-pound draw weight arbalest or maybe early firearms were absolutely terrible at the time. They were fantastic for fighting common soldiers due to them being so limited in armor. I can't say for the Japanese, but in Europe most were limited to gambesons (padded jackets) and a kettle helmet or perhaps a simple sallet, so arrow storms could be devastating. The knights seldom had anything to fear from crossbows (~300 to maybe 350 lb draw weights) or longbows (often around 120 to 150 lb draw weights) even at Azincourt, a decisive victory for the English. Knights in plate killed by arrows had their visors raised at inopportune times, but many men-at-arms made it through the arrow storm, past the archers, and even to King Henry V himself. Proof that the longbow was ineffective against men-at-arms in full plate comes from another battle from the Hundred Years War: the battle of Patay, a decisive victory for the French. The French was made up of mostly men-at-arms at this battle and suffered minimal casualties while the English, with many archers but suffered greatly.

Another factor is size. Medieval Europeans, on average, were larger and stronger than Japanese of the same time period, with English men, for example, at 5'8" during the 15th century, while Japanese men at the same time being averaged at only 5'2". I know you said you were a martial artist earlier, I am too. I trained in Taekwondo and Hapkido for 10 years, I wrestled all four years of high school practicing almost exclusively with people several weight classes above me, and am now training in the longsword in HEMA. I can tell you that weight and strength play a major factor, and can become exponentially more difficult to fight a much larger and stronger opponent.

You are definitely right though, that plate armor doesn't make one godlike. Numbers and skill (or gunpowder, that works pretty well) do indeed render that advantage much less effective. But from what I've said here, I firmly believe the knight would have a much greater chance at victory against a samurai, though not guaranteed.

Herbstlicht
12-27-2018, 02:40 PM
Omg, what a difficult discussion with possibly no real rights or wrongs :3
Ah anyway, rather interesting still ^^
Hmm ... in my opinion, I could not pick a winner. Maybe if I do look at a faction as they stand .. then I'd say the knights. But with a single hero class .. I can't pick one because In my opinion, it is always, and like really, pretty much always about an individuals skill level and strength. Further, the bigger you are, the heavier (muscle weight), the better.
So if a Gladiator class guy was stronger and more agile then the lawbringer class guy, traps this polearm, disarms him and crushes his head with it in the end .. well, something that might happen.

Then, when we are at superiority of gear, its often rather difficult to call something superior in all situations. Imagine a hot summers day. Fighting in metal plate why the sun is cooking you inside it will only get you so far. Fighting on muddy, slippery ground is also not aided when equipped with the heaviest of armors. Where I can agree very much though is that with normal conditions for a shorter fighting session, plate would always be my armor of choice. If you are a warrior, you have the strength and endurance to fight in it. And in battle, running from someone or waiting until he dies from exhaustion hardly is an option. And whenever you are wearing something that can absorb hella lot of blows without you getting injured severly, you can simply take some hits, even throw yourself into attacks and use this to your advantage.

Lastly, to the "technology" aspect of wooden armor. Actually, though inferior to the european armors, wooden samurai armor or samurai armor in general (because it was not made of wood only) was actually rather efficient. Be it Kensei or Orochi style, you won't cut a person with this kind of gear into 2. You will be hard pressed to cut into flesh even when utilizing Nodachi or Naginata type weapons as long as you try cutting techniques. Those armors had some weakpoints though, so thrusting techniques were effective to some point if you could place them correctly. Of course, blunt weapons were effective as well.

And finally, a little bit on the lovely Samurai mythos. Well, the Japanese and Hollywood too are at blame here somewhat. And though the Katana might be the most famous sword in the world and possibly a pretty dueling tool, in every category it has his equal or something better.
So for duels, never use a Katana against a Rapier. Bad odds. Cutting. Well, here the Katana really shines against softer surfaces. Maybe, it is the best weapon for doing so. However, Japan normally did not have access to high quality metals. So, despite their rather refined techniques and rather hard edges, chipping was a common occurence. In comparsion, the european "Kriegsmesser" was a curved weapon as well. So it had nice cutting power. Balance always was very, very nice in most more advanced european swords so this one was a very capeable cutter as well. Now if we consider even further scenarios like attacking from horseback, there is a hella lot of sabers in like every variation throughout the whole world. Those weapons are very good for cutting as well. And now we come to weight. Whoever did chop wood with an axe, does know it does not come effortless. The normal Katana was a light, balanced sword. So cutting .. yea, chopping - not so very much especially when your target was protected.

Anyway, guess the Katana and blades in roughly this style will always stay my favorite. Not because of usability. Mostly because of their artistic value and the craftsmanship that went into them.

But, to finally declare a theoretical winner of the For Honor cast. Well, has to be lawbringer. This guy can beat pretty much everyone, with Warden maybe as his strongest contender.
Lowest would be shaman. I just can't see her being of use on an actual battlefield. Despide maybe contending with the crows for the corpses after the battle is done.

NHLGoldenKnight
12-27-2018, 07:15 PM
Yes it is.
Do you know before most of fights ended to the ground before ?
Usually knights were landing 2 or 3 hit with their swords, then get closer and fall down together. That's the reality of what was happening .
While it wasn't the case for Samurais .

Wearing a plate armor is far, very far
From making you godlike.

Plus, "in real life", in reality, at this period, no one would be as big and tall as LB is.

I strongly believe what i said : Skills and mobility makes you more dangerous than being in robocop armor.

Now i already said i can respect others pov. But some of you just keep going with the same argues back and then this thread is the same for 3 pages already.

Is that from Monthy Python ? :D

But seriously, why do you assume that samurai had skill and speed and knights didn't?

In terms of armor, Samurai armor (the one Kensei has) is far less protective compared to knight armor but it is also heavier per square inch and far worse when it comes to weight distribution because of inferior materials. Around 40% of weight is on shoulders for example and it is known to limit movement as well. It could weight between 15 and 55 lbs which puts in in the similar specs of plate armor which usually was between 25 and maybe 55 or 60 lbs. And Europeans were somewhat larger at that time. So idea that samurai can simply dance around the knight is completely wrong, at least when it comes to actual history and facts.

In terms of skill, knight would need to master more versatile weapons than samurai would need to. Majority of Samurai weapons we can compare in game can only cut, which doesn't work vs plate armor. Poleaxe or longsword could cut, thrust and both could be used as blunt weapons. If you compare longsword to nodachi (odachi) , longsword is more versatile thus requires more skill to completely master. It is best at thrusting but it can cut both sides, and it is extremely efficient as grappling /hooking tool and as a blunt weapon, almost like small war hammer. Also has a guard which was basic for all swords to come. Knights had to work harder to kill each other, because of advanced armor and that is how their weapons and fighting style became more versatile as well. Don't forget how they had to fight more often, in larger and more challenging battles than samurai usually would.

Feedmeyourcows2
12-27-2018, 09:28 PM
Yes it is.
Do you know before most of fights ended to the ground before ?
Usually knights were landing 2 or 3 hit with their swords, then get closer and fall down together. That's the reality of what was happening .
While it wasn't the case for Samurais .

Wearing a plate armor is far, very far
From making you godlike.

Plus, "in real life", in reality, at this period, no one would be as big and tall as LB is.

I strongly believe what i said : Skills and mobility makes you more dangerous than being in robocop armor.

Now i already said i can respect others pov. But some of you just keep going with the same argues back and then this thread is the same for 3 pages already.


Can you give me a source for 'Most fights ended on the ground' I'm assuming you mean both fighters fell to the ground during combat? I find that incredibly hard to believe and I want a source confirming that.

No, wearing plate armor sure as hell doesn't make you godlike, but neither does 'Being skilled and fast'

I also mentioned that plate armor doesn't and I repeat doesn't slow you down so the samurai weren't ninjas compared to the knights. The samurai's blade can't cut through plate armor. Someone can't cut through plate armor with 'skills' as you know. Let's assume the samurai goes for the back of the knees, armpits, etc etc. How is the samurai meant to hit the joints when he needs to worry about getting hit with a gigantic ****ing poleaxe? I said this before I will say it again, samurai may of been slightly more skillful but a knight sure as hell wouldn't be outmatched against a samurai.

Oh and when you say 'Some of you keep going with the same arguements' You're doing the exact same thing, literally. If you're tired of this discussion then just don't reply.

Siegfried-Z
12-27-2018, 10:08 PM
Thanks Mr Bobyub because you bring a lot of good informations to the discussion and a much more interesting Pov than others just saying Plate does everything .
You clearly know your business in terms of battle history much more than i did.

In a real army battle, i would put money on the Knights too. Due to the fact plate armor was more effective at protecting against things You dont even see but hit you (arrows, stones, hit from behind etc).

But in a Duel, i would put it on the Samurai which have a better sword art.
I dont say knights doesn't, only that Samurai have bring it higher (this for NHL).
In this configuration, i believe a Samurai would be able to take advantage from that step by step. Thought, it is not a guaranteed win like you said.

Feedmeyourcows, others just above me confirm it. If you want to be sure about that just do your own researches.

Feedmeyourcows2
12-28-2018, 02:38 AM
Thanks Mr Bobyub because you bring a lot of good informations to the discussion and a much more interesting Pov than others just saying Plate does everything .
You clearly know your business in terms of battle history much more than i did.

In a real army battle, i would put money on the Knights too. Due to the fact plate armor was more effective at protecting against things You dont even see but hit you (arrows, stones, hit from behind etc).

But in a Duel, i would put it on the Samurai which have a better sword art.
I dont say knights doesn't, only that Samurai have bring it higher (this for NHL).
In this configuration, i believe a Samurai would be able to take advantage from that step by step. Thought, it is not a guaranteed win like you said.

Feedmeyourcows, others just above me confirm it. If you want to be sure about that just do your own researches.

And I'm telling you sword art would be almost useless against plate armor. I am not saying that plate armor is unstoppable, I never did. I'm saying a samurai on a 1v1 fight with be at a major disadvantage due to plate armor being a direct counter to a sword. Stop with your 'Others povs aren't interesting' and 'Do your research' Because it makes you come across as arrogant. I'm giving you my point with reasoning and I'm arguing against your point of 'Mobility and skill outclasses everything' I'm generally trying to find out why you would think a samurai would win a fight like that.

Sorry if I'm coming across as disrespectful but I strongly don't believe that a samurai would be able to beat a knight with the reasons I stated above. I'm generally asking you a question when I say this: How exactly would a samurai (Like the orachi since he is able to 'Destroy everything') able to beat someone in full plate armor? (Like a lawbringer) And don't just say 'With skill and speed' give me a genuine way for the samurai to beat the knight. I'm not trying to belittle you, this is a genuine question.

Hormly
12-28-2018, 04:18 AM
Something important to note, the law bringer has one glaring weakness in his armor, and that is his completely exposed thighs.

Someone with a long reaching bladed weapon who could land a blow at his thighs (looking at you nobushi) would stand a chance at felling the giant, as such a wound could cause fatal bleeding. Assuming she could avoid the falling halberd.

Other than that, lawdaddy looks nigh invincible

Tundra 793
12-28-2018, 04:39 AM
But in a Duel, i would put it on the Samurai which have a better sword art.


The Samurai almost certainly had the best sword art of most cultures. But they had the worst swords.

Gonna quote myself from a damn near year old thread, and hopefully bury all katana based arguments;


Historically speaking, Katanas in Feudal Japan would have been made with a special sort of iron native to Japan, which was of such a quality it earned the nickname "pig iron". They were objectively worse weapons than comperable European ones. Generally, they'd be considerably more brittle than other swords, and more prone to breaking or shattering. Hence why it takes such practice and discipline to wield them.

They could still slash and stab though, but against a European sword, the Katana and it's likes could shatter either when hitting an opponent's blade, or contact with armor or shields where a European sword could have enough flex to absorb such blows.

Fun fact; Movies often portray Katanas as being the pinnacle of sword making, in part because of the folding technique used, but in real life, you don't have to fold good steel. The Japanese swordmakers had to fold their steel to work out as many impurities as possible just to make the sword usable.

A little more in depth details about katanas, also quoting myself;


... Tamahagane* historically, would have been of pig iron quality, i.e. having a high carbon content. As I've understood it, good Tamahagane for use in swordmaking, shouldn't have a carbon content higher than around 1-1.5%, but in the age of the Samurai, it could have been as high as 4-4.5%, making it quite brittle.
I believe European swords made before the 12th century often had carbon contents lower than 1%, but rarely exceeding 2%.

Obviously modern Japanese swords can be made much more effeciently and with consistently lower carbon contents, but historically, they were far from the greatest of swords.

*Tamahagane is the Japanese name for the specific iron type used to forge traditional katanas.

Hormly
12-28-2018, 05:15 AM
Funny that there are still katana cultists out there on the internet

NHLGoldenKnight
12-28-2018, 05:41 AM
Something important to note, the law bringer has one glaring weakness in his armor, and that is his completely exposed thighs.

Someone with a long reaching bladed weapon who could land a blow at his thighs (looking at you nobushi) would stand a chance at felling the giant, as such a wound could cause fatal bleeding. Assuming she could avoid the falling halberd.

Other than that, lawdaddy looks nigh invincible

I think it depends on armor set. New sets have what seems to be better protection plus it is well hidden with his cape so it would be hard to even see his weak spot, even harder to get to it. I don't want to come out as biased but I am pretty sure Lawbringer would take down Nobushi even without his weapon since his armor gives him option to simply grab hers weapon without risk.

Valk, at least imo, would be much more dangerous opponent since her spear could go through gaps in helmet plus she has a shield, well buckler, but still good defensive tool.

Hormly
12-28-2018, 05:59 AM
I think it depends on armor set. New sets have what seems to be better protection plus it is well hidden with his cape so it would be hard to even see his weak spot, even harder to get to it. I don't want to come out as biased but I am pretty sure Lawbringer would take down Nobushi even without his weapon since his armor gives him option to simply grab hers weapon without risk.

Valk, at least imo, would be much more dangerous opponent since her spear could go through gaps in helmet plus she has a shield, well buckler, but still good defensive tool.

Oh I'm not saying itd be easy, I'm just grasping at strays here 😄 the only place his armor isn't covered is his juicy thighs, so I'd say that's your only shot. It's a terrible shot, but it's your only one... or I suppose you could run... that's what I'd do

Tundra 793
12-28-2018, 06:05 AM
Valk, at least imo, would be much more dangerous opponent since her spear could go through gaps in helmet plus she has a shield, well buckler, but still good defensive tool.


Historically, and realistically speaking, Valkyrie would be the best fighter of the entire roster. Her armor and shield offers her optimal defense, and her spear offers the best range and damage.

Melikethegames
12-28-2018, 07:05 AM
Real Life For Honor Tier List:

Hello. The following is a tier list based off of how powerful these characters would be in real life. The higher the tier, the stronger the hero. Lower tiers are obviously weaker. Feel free to comment opinions.

S-Tier (God Tier):

- Lawbringer (Armor won't dent easily. The pole axe will leave foes hit hard. He will cleave his enemies, with a weapon that can swing and thrust effectively)
- Tiandi (Armor is metal, but light enough to be quite mobile. With a sword that can be effectively wielded with one hand, quick cuts can severely damage joints)
- Warden (Strong metal armor and a strong, long metal weapon? The perfect offense and defense)
- Jiang Jun (A tall, broad figure who can swing the guan dao to cleave foes in a few hits. Far range, devastating blows)

A-Tier:

- Highlander (The claymore is a strong heavy weapon that can land hard hitting blows on foes. His lack of armor allows him to move faster with such a heavy weapon, but leaves his defense rather weak)
- Conqueror (Very strong defense with metal armor and shield. The flail is a strong, deceptive weapon. Can deal blunt damage to armored foes. However, the flail is ineffective as a quick consecutive hitter to armored foes. May lack far offensive range. Charging consumes time)
- Warlord (The shield and sword provide a strong offense and defense. His armor is decently tough. His lack of range is a significant disadvantage)
- Nuxia (The hook swords allow for varied ranged attacks. The lightweight of the swords and armor allow for quick movements. Hooks can reposition foes rather effectively in real life. Disadvantaged in defense)
- Orochi (With flexible, plated armor, the mobility potential is high. Rather balanced offense and defense. Katana is strong, but doesn't cleave foes or damage armor easily)
- Centurion (Metal armor and gladius is light enough for good mobility. Metal fist provides another offensive technique. Lack of range leaves offense disadvantaged. Gladius can deal good damage to joints and has dent potential)

B-Tier:

- Kensei (Wood armor is a weak defense. The katana has long range and can deal good damage, so offense is decently good, but can't cleave foes or damage armor easily. Less quick than other katanas)
- Shugoki (Kanabo will hit hard, doesn't cleave foes or damage armor easily. High knock back is a defensive technique. High body weight weakens mobility drastically. Wood armor is a weak defense)
- Nobushi (Naginata has long range and can cut un armored foes well. Struggles against armor and shields. No armor herself, her defense is very weak. Hidden stance would not be effective in real life)
- Valkyrie (Spear has long range and is thin enough to make blocking difficult. Armor is somewhat weak, but allows for higher mobility. Small shield is rather weak, but still somewhat effective and improves defense to some extent)

C-Tier:

- Shaolin (Staff leaves somewhat of a blow and foes. Light armor allows for high mobility. Offensive advantage with long range. The fact that the staff can be held in the middle allows for unique, effective ways to hit enemies)
- Raider (Long axe will leave heavy blows and foes, cleave and dent armor. Has lack of armor which allows for high mobility. The fact that raider's skin is exposed is a major defensive disadvantage)
- Gladiator (Same defensive issue as raider except that the shield provides higher defense. Shield/Buckler is also a good offensive tool and the trident is a unique, lol weapon. High mobility)
- Aramusha (Dual katanas doesn't provide any more advantage than a singular katana would. Lack of armor is a defensive issue. Straw hat puts vision to a slight disadvantage)

D-Tier:

- Berserker (A shirt doesn't provide any defense. Axes can not effectively block. Lack of range is an offensive disadvantage. Dual axes don't provide any more advantage than a singular axe. Weak offense, weak defense, high mobility)
- Shinobi (Same as berserker except with a kusarigama)
- Peacekeeper (Same as berserker except with daggers)
- Shaman (Same as berserker except with hatchet and dagger)

you forogot warlord and conqeruior should be S in real life couse it have shield and conqeruior who have flails weapon his can make zone attack to make enamy hard to parry but of it try to parry flails zone attack it going get hit in hand

bannex19
12-28-2018, 08:51 AM
The best thing about this thread is the fact that the vikings and the knights are basically the same warriors from different eras.

The vikings were essentially a migrant Germanic tribe like the saxons who adopted fighting techniques from the romans. Sweden eventually had knights in plate later on in history. It's almost nonsensical to debate a battle between the two but still kinda fun.

NHLGoldenKnight
12-28-2018, 09:13 AM
Well that is true in theory but Vikings term was referring only to those who would go to raid and not all Danes were Vikings.

Also, Vikings were fighting Saxons who (especially later on), were closest to knights before actual knights.

It's just too complicated and it always was when it comes to Europe. :D

Siegfried-Z
12-28-2018, 10:53 AM
And I'm telling you sword art would be almost useless against plate armor. I am not saying that plate armor is unstoppable, I never did. I'm saying a samurai on a 1v1 fight with be at a major disadvantage due to plate armor being a direct counter to a sword. Stop with your 'Others povs aren't interesting' and 'Do your research' Because it makes you come across as arrogant. I'm giving you my point with reasoning and I'm arguing against your point of 'Mobility and skill outclasses everything' I'm generally trying to find out why you would think a samurai would win a fight like that.

Sorry if I'm coming across as disrespectful but I strongly don't believe that a samurai would be able to beat a knight with the reasons I stated above. I'm generally asking you a question when I say this: How exactly would a samurai (Like the orachi since he is able to 'Destroy everything') able to beat someone in full plate armor? (Like a lawbringer) And don't just say 'With skill and speed' give me a genuine way for the samurai to beat the knight. I'm not trying to belittle you, this is a genuine question.

I dont want to look arrogant too. But then i think we've both repeat everything a few time already.
Lets just say we have different opinion. That's not the end of the world and that's a good way to keep going .

When i put my comment on this thread, no one have done it before while it was here for few days. And then we are almost at 70 comments 😅 i think we know what each others believe.


I think it depends on armor set. New sets have what seems to be better protection plus it is well hidden with his cape so it would be hard to even see his weak spot, even harder to get to it. I don't want to come out as biased but I am pretty sure Lawbringer would take down Nobushi even without his weapon since his armor gives him option to simply grab hers weapon without risk.

Valk, at least imo, would be much more dangerous opponent since her spear could go through gaps in helmet plus she has a shield, well buckler, but still good defensive tool.

That's interesting .
I am not a nerd at all, and Valk is one of my fav Char.
But, a Kensei could not have a chance agaisnt LB but then Valk could go through gaps in helmet..?
Looks just like in the opposite way many people dislike samurais i dont know why.

So Valk, a Woman, far smaller than Kensei and even more than LB. . With even less armor. . Because yes, vikings armor are almost non existant (game speaking).
And Her spear... sorry but, did you train already ? A one handed spear, with lot of space between your hand and the peak of the spear and no specific weight in. result? Almost no strengh in your hit. And then no abilities To go through at best leather armor. And absolutly no cut ability.

Lets forget the Valkyrie Myth. The one from the game wouldn't be strong .

Tundra 793
12-28-2018, 04:03 PM
So Valk, a Woman, far smaller than Kensei and even more than LB. . With even less armor. . Because yes, vikings armor are almost non existant (game speaking).

Pretty sure Valk is at least as tall, or taller, than Kensei. She's the size of the Raider, just slightly less muscular. True she doesn't have much armor, but she has the vital bits as I recall, and never underestimate a shield, that's the best defensive tool available.


And Her spear... sorry but, did you train already ? A one handed spear, with lot of space between your hand and the peak of the spear and no specific weight in. result? Almost no strengh in your hit. And then no abilities To go through at best leather armor. And absolutly no cut ability.

It isn't a one handed spear, it's a full size spear that she just wields one handed. This was by far the most common loadout for pre middle age warriors.

Brother, you're quite simply completely wrong about how a spear works. The distance between a spear wielders hand, and the tip has no bearing on energy transfer. The energy you put into a thrust doesn't dissipate until your arm stops, or the spear hits something. However much force and weight you put into a thrust (which can be considerable), is retained, even if you hold the spear at the center.
Because a spear ends in a point, which you use to thrust and pierce, the energy transfer is concentrated into a far denser area, than if you were to cut or slash someone with a sword, and that gives it an unparalleled piercing ability, which is the only type of attack that has a chance of penetrating plate armor. Cutting will do nothing against plate armor, you need a weapon with the capability to pierce it.

Vakris_One
12-28-2018, 05:19 PM
Pretty sure Valk is at least as tall, or taller, than Kensei. She's the size of the Raider, just slightly less muscular. True she doesn't have much armor, but she has the vital bits as I recall, and never underestimate a shield, that's the best defensive tool available.



It isn't a one handed spear, it's a full size spear that she just wields one handed. This was by far the most common loadout for pre middle age warriors.

Brother, you're quite simply completely wrong about how a spear works. The distance between a spear wielders hand, and the tip has no bearing on energy transfer. The energy you put into a thrust doesn't dissipate until your arm stops, or the spear hits something. However much force and weight you put into a thrust (which can be considerable), is retained, even if you hold the spear at the center.
Because a spear ends in a point, which you use to thrust and pierce, the energy transfer is concentrated into a far denser area, than if you were to cut or slash someone with a sword, and that gives it an unparalleled piercing ability, which is the only type of attack that has a chance of penetrating plate armor. Cutting will do nothing against plate armor, you need a weapon with the capability to pierce it.
Nicely put. Also worth mentioning is that she is among the few warriors in the roster who can do bludgeoning damage in addition to slashing, cutting and piercing while still maintaining her range and/or defense. She can use her spear tip to strike at gaps in armour such as the joints and neck and she can use her buckler shield to get in some serious physical impact damage on an armoured opponent. And she would be able to threaten with both types of attack at the same time while also able to defend herself from her enemy's weapon via her shield.

If she's really feeling frisky she can even turn her spear around and use the metal pommel on the bottom to mash and mangle her opponent's face plate/helmet. I'd say she has excellent chances of going toe to toe with a Lawbringer.

Tundra 793
12-28-2018, 06:31 PM
The vikings were essentially a migrant Germanic tribe like the saxons who adopted fighting techniques from the romans. Sweden eventually had knights in plate later on in history. It's almost nonsensical to debate a battle between the two but still kinda fun.

They weren't a migrant tribe. Sure they were descendants of migrant Germanic tribes, but by the time of the viking age, the viking nations were not migratory, and had evolved out of the tribal social system. They were largely petty kingdoms, earldoms and such. And by the end of the viking age, all 3 viking nations were almost fully formed.

You are correct in saying that knight and vikings were the same people, just from different time periods though.

NHLGoldenKnight
12-28-2018, 07:28 PM
I dont want to look arrogant too. But then i think we've both repeat everything a few time already.
Lets just say we have different opinion. That's not the end of the world and that's a good way to keep going .

When i put my comment on this thread, no one have done it before while it was here for few days. And then we are almost at 70 comments 😅 i think we know what each others believe.



That's interesting .
I am not a nerd at all, and Valk is one of my fav Char.
But, a Kensei could not have a chance agaisnt LB but then Valk could go through gaps in helmet..?
Looks just like in the opposite way many people dislike samurais i dont know why.

So Valk, a Woman, far smaller than Kensei and even more than LB. . With even less armor. . Because yes, vikings armor are almost non existant (game speaking).
And Her spear... sorry but, did you train already ? A one handed spear, with lot of space between your hand and the peak of the spear and no specific weight in. result? Almost no strengh in your hit. And then no abilities To go through at best leather armor. And absolutly no cut ability.

Lets forget the Valkyrie Myth. The one from the game wouldn't be strong .

Oh, I don't dislike samurai, trust me. If we were talking about how these warriors would perform in duel without armor, I would rank them much higher. But as long as we look at the equipment as well, I honestly believe not only that Valk would have much better chance of defeating Lawbringer, but that Valk would mostly likely defeat complete Samurai roster. Warlord would as well.

It is true that as a woman she loses few points in my book but she still lookes very strong, strongest out of all women in the game. Also, if not for the buckler, I wouldn't be sure she would have advantage since spear was dominant weapon in battle, because of formations. In 1v1 duel, it has less advantages however she has a shield which is after pkate armor, best next thing you can have.

As for the spear, Tundra explained it well. It has good chance of piercing through different kinds of armor because all energy you put into thrust transfer on the target over a very narrow and pointy surface. (even if you cant pierce armor you can aim for the visor for example ). Swords can't give you that to the full extent, although longsword still can do it. Nodachi/katana would be almost completely useless unless opponent is wearing inferior armor or not wearing armor at all. Out 9f all Samurai, Shugo is possibly the most dangerous one for every armored hero, and one with the shield as well. That is, if he can stay in a fight for longer than 30 seconds. :D

UbiInsulin
12-29-2018, 12:02 AM
Is this in a close quarters duel with no escape? Because I feel that the heavily armored warriors would likely get heat stroke if the field of battle is reasonably large. I'm only being half-ironic, too.

chukblok
12-29-2018, 05:02 AM
Is this in a close quarters duel with no escape? Because I feel that the heavily armored warriors would likely get heat stroke if the field of battle is reasonably large. I'm only being half-ironic, too.

I vote that Lawbro automatically gets immediate stamina drain to 0 on outdoor maps if it's sunny conditions. Regen only if he gets indoors.

Hormly
12-29-2018, 05:57 AM
Clearly the warlord would win, as he exemplifies the perfect combination of armor weapon and bearded masculinity

Tundra 793
12-29-2018, 06:00 AM
Is this in a close quarters duel with no escape? Because I feel that the heavily armored warriors would likely get heat stroke if the field of battle is reasonably large. I'm only being half-ironic, too.

How do you know he ain't going commando under all the armor?


Clearly the warlord would win, as he exemplifies the perfect combination of armor weapon and bearded masculinity

Yeah that's a good point. You can't really defeat a fine beard.

Thread's closed everyone, close the door on your way out, debate's settled. Beards win.

bannex19
12-29-2018, 07:05 AM
VIKING MATH AND LOGIC

JJ has a pole arm and a beard (+1)...

Raider has a Giant axe (+1) and a beard (+1)

Zerk has 2 axes (+2) and a beard (+1)

Pretty sure the shaman would grow a beard if she didn't compulsively shave it.

How do you know law daddy doesn't have a beard tucked under that helm?

Aramusha has a beard (sometimes) (+0.5)

The only heroes I can safely say that don't have beards are the shinobi and the tiandi.

The shinobi is the epitome of cowardly combat therefore is unable to grow a beard thus hiding his face in shame (-3). He also fights with garden tools (-2).

The tiandi may have hair on his face that resembles a beard but it's clearly not a beard because a beard wouldn't allow him to dance like that on the battlefield. The beard would slap him mid dodge and force him to reconsider his movements. The beard would then turn his sword into an axe and drop his voice a few octaves. Clearly the tiandi doesn't have a beard on his face.

Female Gladiator also definitely has a beard.

Lil_Porkki
12-29-2018, 06:19 PM
VIKING MATH AND LOGIC

JJ has a pole arm and a beard (+1)...

Raider has a Giant axe (+1) and a beard (+1)

Zerk has 2 axes (+2) and a beard (+1)

Pretty sure the shaman would grow a beard if she didn't compulsively shave it.

How do you know law daddy doesn't have a beard tucked under that helm?

Aramusha has a beard (sometimes) (+0.5)

The only heroes I can safely say that don't have beards are the shinobi and the tiandi.

The shinobi is the epitome of cowardly combat therefore is unable to grow a beard thus hiding his face in shame (-3). He also fights with garden tools (-2).

The tiandi may have hair on his face that resembles a beard but it's clearly not a beard because a beard wouldn't allow him to dance like that on the battlefield. The beard would slap him mid dodge and force him to reconsider his movements. The beard would then turn his sword into an axe and drop his voice a few octaves. Clearly the tiandi doesn't have a beard on his face.

Female Gladiator also definitely has a beard.

This is gold

Vakris_One
12-29-2018, 06:45 PM
Valkyrie has a beard, it's just not on her face-I'll see myself out...

UbiInsulin
12-29-2018, 08:24 PM
VIKING MATH AND LOGIC

JJ has a pole arm and a beard (+1)...

Raider has a Giant axe (+1) and a beard (+1)

Zerk has 2 axes (+2) and a beard (+1)

Pretty sure the shaman would grow a beard if she didn't compulsively shave it.

How do you know law daddy doesn't have a beard tucked under that helm?

Aramusha has a beard (sometimes) (+0.5)

The only heroes I can safely say that don't have beards are the shinobi and the tiandi.

The shinobi is the epitome of cowardly combat therefore is unable to grow a beard thus hiding his face in shame (-3). He also fights with garden tools (-2).

The tiandi may have hair on his face that resembles a beard but it's clearly not a beard because a beard wouldn't allow him to dance like that on the battlefield. The beard would slap him mid dodge and force him to reconsider his movements. The beard would then turn his sword into an axe and drop his voice a few octaves. Clearly the tiandi doesn't have a beard on his face.

Female Gladiator also definitely has a beard.

https://media.giphy.com/media/26gJA9SSe4m54MYec/giphy.gif

As far as I can tell, you've done some perfect math here.

Siegfried-Z
12-29-2018, 09:51 PM
Pretty sure Valk is at least as tall, or taller, than Kensei. She's the size of the Raider, just slightly less muscular. True she doesn't have much armor, but she has the vital bits as I recall, and never underestimate a shield, that's the best defensive tool available.



It isn't a one handed spear, it's a full size spear that she just wields one handed. This was by far the most common loadout for pre middle age warriors.

Brother, you're quite simply completely wrong about how a spear works. The distance between a spear wielders hand, and the tip has no bearing on energy transfer. The energy you put into a thrust doesn't dissipate until your arm stops, or the spear hits something. However much force and weight you put into a thrust (which can be considerable), is retained, even if you hold the spear at the center.
Because a spear ends in a point, which you use to thrust and pierce, the energy transfer is concentrated into a far denser area, than if you were to cut or slash someone with a sword, and that gives it an unparalleled piercing ability, which is the only type of attack that has a chance of penetrating plate armor. Cutting will do nothing against plate armor, you need a weapon with the capability to pierce it.

I strongly disagree man.
First of all, you cant have a correct view and say Valk is as tall as Raider and more than Kensei .
Just check it, you gonna see it. And this is normal Because, it is a Woman.
Even the strongest womens doesnt have muscles as powerfull as mens and bones as solid and heavy.

About the spear.
Disagree again . And you can say you disagree with me but not that i am wrong.
Because i think you as me arent spears experts. But at least i've done 12 years of martial arts and believe me i have a good understanding of how the power and weight transfert works in different way to hit with different part of the body.

So, yes her spear can be use with two hands.
But with a that much big shield in the left one, que could barely used it in this way.

Plus, yes a shield is a good defense. But dont forget she only has a wood shied. Any heavy weapon would easly broke it and her forearm at the same time in less than 3 hits.

About the power transfert at the end of the spear.
You have To understand than longer is the size between your hand and the peak, smaller is your control and the power you can put in a hit IF USED WITH ONE HAND (To be clear).

Plus, a Nodachi, heavier and with a far better grip with two hands would have a far bigger ability to pierce than a one handed spear like valk has.

NHLGoldenKnight
12-29-2018, 11:21 PM
I would somewhat agree with you with first part and I said it myself earlier, Valk indeed loses couple of points because she is a woman, strong but still weaker than male Viking would have been.

However, you are wrong with spear analysis. Until the introduction of pollaxes, spear probably was most used and most effective weapon on the battlefield. It lost little bit after everyone got plate armor but for hundreds of year (better yet thousands ) spear was dominant on every battlefield. And commonly it was used in combination with shield. From ancient Greeks and Romans, over Macedonians and Franks and Vikings, all the way to Zulu tribe, Native Americans and Chinese and Japanese, spear was used more than any other type of weapon. It was cheap and quick to made, long range and great piercing ability. It is stronger in battles than in duel, but still deadlier than almost any sword ever made. Biggest disadvantage is that it can be cut or broken, so many warriors carried multiple spears, some used for throwing like javelin.

If someone would hold spear at the very end, yes, it wouldn't be easy to maneuver. That is why grip on spear can be adjusted based on your needs and even when Valk is fighting, she does change her grip position depending of type of an attack.

Shield is made of wood, like most shields are but they are pain to break through. You can't just cut it with sword, it doesn't work. Your sword will chip or get stuck in the shield and you are dead. Axes and other heavy weapons are much better vs shields than swords. There are reasons why Vikings preferred axes although they did have decent swords as well.

To make story short, buckler in combo with shorter spear is simply better option compared to any single sword. Even Samurai preferred spear( yari I think ) to let's say Katana, which was nothing more than ceremonial /backup weapon.

Tundra 793
12-29-2018, 11:28 PM
Disagree again . And you can say you disagree with me but not that i am wrong.


You're wrong.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8vFfDuG-iA

In case you don't have time to watch it; The spear pierces the plate, while wielding it with one hand. The spear he uses also has an odd, wide tip, a narrower spear tip could probably penetrate deeper.


Plus, a Nodachi, heavier and with a far better grip with two hands would have a far bigger ability to pierce than a one handed spear like valk has.

I really, really can't imagine that working. Because a nodachi is curved, the impact of the blade on plate armor would begin to direct the thrust upward. That is assuming the blade doesn't snap on impact.
Nodachis and katanas, as I understand it, are designed for effect cutting and slashing, not stabbing, whereas a spear is almost solely designed for stabbing.

I posted some more in depth information about how historical katanas (and by extension, nodachis) were quite fickle swords a few pages back, here; https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1977933-For-Honor-in-Real-Life-(Tier-List!!!)?p=13865922&viewfull=1#post13865922

Siegfried-Z
12-30-2018, 03:12 PM
I would somewhat agree with you with first part and I said it myself earlier, Valk indeed loses couple of points because she is a woman, strong but still weaker than male Viking would have been.

However, you are wrong with spear analysis. Until the introduction of pollaxes, spear probably was most used and most effective weapon on the battlefield. It lost little bit after everyone got plate armor but for hundreds of year (better yet thousands ) spear was dominant on every battlefield. And commonly it was used in combination with shield. From ancient Greeks and Romans, over Macedonians and Franks and Vikings, all the way to Zulu tribe, Native Americans and Chinese and Japanese, spear was used more than any other type of weapon. It was cheap and quick to made, long range and great piercing ability. It is stronger in battles than in duel, but still deadlier than almost any sword ever made. Biggest disadvantage is that it can be cut or broken, so many warriors carried multiple spears, some used for throwing like javelin.

If someone would hold spear at the very end, yes, it wouldn't be easy to maneuver. That is why grip on spear can be adjusted based on your needs and even when Valk is fighting, she does change her grip position depending of type of an attack.

Shield is made of wood, like most shields are but they are pain to break through. You can't just cut it with sword, it doesn't work. Your sword will chip or get stuck in the shield and you are dead. Axes and other heavy weapons are much better vs shields than swords. There are reasons why Vikings preferred axes although they did have decent swords as well.

To make story short, buckler in combo with shorter spear is simply better option compared to any single sword. Even Samurai preferred spear( yari I think ) to let's say Katana, which was nothing more than ceremonial /backup weapon.

NHL that's a crazy day because i believe i agree with what you just say ! (Joke).

About your comment second part, you said i al wrong on the spear analysis but because you talk about 2 handed spears for the most part.
I know they were very effective in war because it could be used from a long range, could be threw and was great at stopping horses.

But as i said, i talk about a one handed spear being kind of light tho, and in a Duel configuration (i believe this is the point of the thread).
And that change a lot. I really doubt her weapon would be very effective.


You're wrong.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8vFfDuG-iA

In case you don't have time to watch it; The spear pierces the plate, while wielding it with one hand. The spear he uses also has an odd, wide tip, a narrower spear tip could probably penetrate deeper.



I really, really can't imagine that working. Because a nodachi is curved, the impact of the blade on plate armor would begin to direct the thrust upward. That is assuming the blade doesn't snap on impact.
Nodachis and katanas, as I understand it, are designed for effect cutting and slashing, not stabbing, whereas a spear is almost solely designed for stabbing.

I posted some more in depth information about how historical katanas (and by extension, nodachis) were quite fickle swords a few pages back, here; https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1977933-For-Honor-in-Real-Life-(Tier-List!!!)?p=13865922&viewfull=1#post13865922

Man, dont be a child first.
I am not wrong, and you proove yoursef being so with your own comment each time a bit more.

First saying Valk is as tall as Raider ..😅
And now putting a vid which show a much bigger spear unable To pierce a fix target until the guy throw it like a Javelot.

Plus, Pierce an armor against a mobile target is far more difficult . And looking at this bigger spear efficiency against a fixed one, your own vid proove it would not be better with a shorter and lighter one in a Duel.

Landing your spear like that in a duel wasn't a good idea at all because if you miss you dont have weapon anymore.

Valk spear is shorter and then lighter. She used it only with one hand and never throw it (because it is smarter).

So, saying a one handed mid range spear is better at piercing than a two handed long sword is, wrong. Deeply.

Poenix21
12-31-2018, 02:57 AM
A fine discussion we have here let me join in.

If we compare the warriors with the armor they have in game, the knights win hands down because according to ubi the samurai use wooden armor-_-

If we use real historical Armor then we first need to make as small tier list.


Gamberson: I think everybody knows what this is. As sole armor a bit lacking but hey better than nothing I guess. A Gamberson is part of almost all other armor types.

Chain mail: A good flexible armor. Offers good protection against cuts and acceptable protection against stabs. These type of armor has one problem, and that's how the single segments are linked together. Parts of the armor could be damaged via stabs and cuts if hit multiple times. However Chainmail was still used in combination with other armor types.

Lamellar armor: A type of armor made of steel stripes or medium sized plates. Offers a better protection against stabs than chain mail.
A very typical Armor used by the Japanese. In the Sengoku-era this type was referred to as Tōseigusoku and probably the type of armor Orochi would wear. This type of armor was constructed with the new firing weapons in mind so they were reasonably thick and through melee weapons, aside from the chain mail parts, not penetrate able.

Plate armor: The king of all armor. Thick plates, constructed to deflect bullets, blows and stabs and almost no gabs.
Lawbro and Warden would probably use as Gothic style plate armor.
The Japanese had their own kind of Plate armor too. They copied the Portuguese Plate armor and it was called Nanbandō, which would probably be used by our Kensei.

Now how to kill Soldiers in armor:

Armor penetration: I think for everything above Gamberson a very unreasonable way to die in a duel scenario. With either swords spears you wont get trough chain mail + gamberson and penetrate deep enough to cause serious harm. With an poleaxe you might have better luck. This type of death is rather common through Cavalry charges and gunfire not so much in melee.

Getting hit through armor gaps while standing: Possible but quite problematic as well. Stabbing weapons are better suited for this than cutting weapons and you opponent is actively trying to avoid this.

Wrestle, throw, mount, stab: Quite risky but I believe it's a good method to kill someone. Knights, Vikings and Samurai are trained in grappling and all 3 are even using the same techniques (studied classical juijitsu) so I think at least in duels this was a common occurrence.

Knock him out, then stab him: The safest and best way to kill. Of course it requires a blunt weapon.


Now I want to talk about just a little about weapons the Katana in particular.
While it is true that the Katana is a inferior weapon compared to the Longsword it's not like It's rubber either. To bend a Katana you must first damage the hardened blade all the way to it's soft core. I highly recommend Shadiversitys Videos on the Katana.

An other topic is the usage of 2 handed swords.Know usage of these type of sword were primarily either as bodyguard-weapons or specific against pikemen. Having a reach advantage and being more nimble than a spear is the reason why I believe it to be superior to a spear.

Now to the top 5:

1. Lawbringer
Well not very surprising, he has it all. Best armor, most versatile weapon, long reach. There is not a single match up which isn't in his favor.

2. Kensei
Now before you scream bloody weeb, please let me explain. While inferior to Lawbringer and Warden he still wears heavy armor. The other major fact for this is his weapon. While his Weapon is not good against armor, Warden Longsword is only slightly, and Warlords even worse. But Kensei has the reach advantage over both of them. You can still stab reasonably well with a Katana or Nodachi.

3. Warden
Same as Kensei basically but with slightly better armor, but shorter reach.

4. Warlord
Well I struggled a bit with this one. Conquerer could been here but it's hard for me to judge the flail he has.

5. Conquerer
Same as warlord only different weapon. The thing is I can't really find anything about flails being used in melee combat.

Most of the rest are just suffering from the lack of armor really. Almost every soldier has used armor and for good reasons. Without armor even knives are a huge threat to your life and to go out without armor make you prone to these kind of threats.


Usefull links:
Gothic Armor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_plate_armour
Tōseigusoku: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C5%8Dseigusoku
Nanbandō: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanband%C5%8D (both are German since i can't find the English counterparts)
ThegnThrads Samurai armor abuse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYRTjmeLGM4
Shadiveritys Katana series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r4q0reHAC8&list=PLWklwxMTl4swj2iFIjIPsHogwioUFTIxy

NHLGoldenKnight
12-31-2018, 04:04 AM
To have Kensei in top 5, not to mention in top 2, is very questionable decision. Let's say he does have longer reach compared to Warden, but Warden still has better armor and more versatile weapon which is better in thrusting, hooking/grappling and as blunt weapon as well.

Knight_Raime
12-31-2018, 04:18 AM
^ The above me quote is a very good post for educational purposes. I personally think this thread is kind of a waste because there was no medium decided on what dictated the term "powerful." That being said it's also hard to formulate an argument/counter point when people are bouncing back and forth between different time periods to cover up gaps in their statements. This is practically encouraged by the artistic liberties the developers have taken with armor and weapon design.

If we were to go full "irl" here then every faction here wore armor. And every single one of them also wore layers. You wouldn't wear just plate as an example. You'd have under armor too. Which it combined with plate or equivalent would make slashing based attacks nigh unusable. Second, there is no superior fighting style. And in any serious duel you can bet who is ever showing up has had plenty of training. Just because Japan had to train harder to deal with their brittle weapons doesn't mean european knights or Norsmen didn't train to a comparable level. You can't accurately quantify such a nebulous thing like skill. Fighting styles are usually far more about one's beliefs and what works for them. Not one fighting style being head and shoulders above another.

The best thing we can do for this thread is stick to what's being used in game as best as possible making references to capabilities of the equipment being used in game. Only touching on fighting styles when talking un armored opponents like shaolin and shinobi. So with that in mind:

Lawbringer is at the top. His chest armor is pretty equivalent to jousting gear. Which is much thicker than traditional plate. It also seems he is wearing chain under his armor. And he's coupled with the most versatile weapon ever created in terms of melee combat. His one downside is manuverability. Plate armor in itself weighs a decent amount but is comparable to or even less than the amount of weight an average soldier in the army is trained to carry. And this would be distributed across the body evenly. The reason I say manuverability is because the weapon he's using is quite big and heavy itself. And he's also wearing a step above plate for his chest. That being said LB can easily control the space around him in a duel with the length and capability of the weapon alone. You're not going to circle around him.

Kensei/warden/Warlord would be tied for second for me. Kensei's weapon is not practical and is far more useful at taking down horses. But it's "ok" enough and Kensei himself would be wearing their plate armor equivalent. His downside would be lack of great control over his weapon. But is semi made up for by being "alright" for thrusting. Warden has the euorpean long sword which is just as good at dealing with little/no armor as it is with armor due to fighting techniques that are referred to things like half swording. He also has some plate and mix with chain. But less than LB making him slightly more manuverable. His dowwnside really just is no shield. Warden would be trained in grappling just as any other person going up against armor. Plenty of techniques were taught so a person can grab/disarm a weapon and/or bash them into submission. Warlord being at the bottom here due to having the weakest armor of the 3 and much less reach than both warden and Kensei. But he makes up for it with his shield. Which no one on the knights side has an answer to other than LB.

No one in the samurai's current faction has effective weapons against armor barring shugoki and maybe nobushi. So unless the samurai are fighting gladiator or peace keeper they're really not going to get anywhere. Vikings have berzerker, shaman, valk, and raider who have weapons that could stand against armor. Those being axe's and spears. Valk and warlord actually have decent enough armor too. I'd probably rank Valk as high as LB in terms of being best in the faction. Wielding a shield, a spear that can be two handed, and having pretty optimized armor in terms of mobility/defense makes her a clear cut winner over warlord. Warlord having a better shield at the cost of a worse weapon in terms of reach.

Samurai wise it's kensei/shugoki/nobushi. But just barely. Goki's weapon is the only weapon on their team that can actually attack armor directly. Nobushi and kensei would have to aim for gaps/non armored parts. I'd say nobushi's weapon is better than kensei's as it's actually reasonable to use in a duel but kensei has the better armor. Chinese wise Tiandi and JJ stand tall for having good armor ratio's and decent weaponry. Shaolin is a joke against armor. Nuxia's hook swords technically could catch themselves in gaps of armor. but she herself has little armor and hook sword techniques are not super practicle vs armor.

I think things get far more interesting when we pit the heros who don't have good armor vs each other. In this case i'd think Shaolin would be at the top. Just because of the range he has and the overall flexibility with a staff. All though I believe both pk and nuxia would be quite adept and landing several disabling slices. Shinobi and aramusha would still be jokes imo though. Just because Shinobi's weapon isn't a real thing and while dual wielding can be practical dual wielding two of the same weapons is redundant, let alone two single edged weapons that are far better when you have more control over the weapon. Orochi would be a far better fighter than Aramusha.