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p0wn3rki11
12-10-2018, 05:04 PM
Welcome!

I thought i would try my hand at a tier list. But for a caveat, I am not, nor will i likely ever be, a diamond tier player. That being said, I have still played every character to some extent (and yes I have looked at the win matrix for past season). After all that I guarantee you all will still call me stupid for this but I have my reasons for putting characters where I have them here and in no way is it intended to **** on your main. A character can be fun but still be bad, and a bad character can still be played well by a good player but objective evidence is what I am trying to focus on here. So let's get started and let the hate flow! I'm also going to commit a cardinal sin and not put these characters in any particular order, just in their tiers. Because I honestly don't have the time to sit and sort all 22 of these dudes into an organized list.

F Tier (As in why the F*** would you use them?)

Shugoki
Yeah, you saw this coming. Still with no rework, over half a year past the promised due date, good ol' shugo should have been the first to receive one. Shugoki is regarded as one of the worst characters in the game at this point. My reasoning for putting him in this tier normally nonexistant in most lists is because of how bad he is compared to what we have now. Back in season 1 a shugo was a solid ally to have in 4v4's but now, he has been power creeped over enough that it is amazing anyone still likes him. His kit is starved of anything viable, he can only strike one hit at a time due to how slow he is (assuming you play him "safe"), he takes a bonus 25% damage after using the main focus of his kit: the hyper armor, he has a token 1-shot that not even shugo mains really like, his fully charged heavy is an easy counter and if parried puts him into exhaustion. All in all shugo has 3 options when fighting someone, light into an attack and headbutt, heavy into an attack and headbutt (which is basically the same thing), or guardbreak to hopefully wallsplat into demon's embrace, which by the way you lose hyper armor, do not keep it if struck twice, lose a lot of hp if missed, and it is punishable by a free guardbreak or heavy. Rework inbound though so lets hope our big fat guy can just get out of being the objectively worst character in the game.

Warlord

Here come's the salt. Yes I understand what a good warlord can do, yes I understand how he operates and what a good one can do. But remember i said objective reasons here and warlord's kit is.....something. Not nearly as bad as shugo, warlord has a kit that doesn't really work anymore. His counter potential is great but every one of his counters in full block can be counter countered. The stab and heavy can be blocked and the headbutt if done right can be dodged. He has a whopping TWO CHAINS both of which are 2 hit combos having to alternate between light or heavy, making him REALLY predictable. His full block takes far too long to enter with how fast characters are these days to use effectively on reaction and most people will try to bait it out for a free gb. The two things warlord has going for him are his grab, which is one of the easiest ledging throws in the game, and his headbutt, which is hard to dodge on reaction and many people will eat a few before they counter. All in all, he needs an updated kit to stay with the times, good warlords still exist i know, but they have to try SO SO MUCH HARDER than say a moderately good shaolin.


D-Tier (Yes i know i skipped a letter, shutup)

Raider

D-tier is hard to classify because it really holds some hidden gems but a few deserve to be here, Raider is not one of them. Raider is only here due to his somewhat starved kit and he is the only one of the main three vanguards that is still the same as before. I was going to F-tier him before i played him but now i see raider can be a monster. That being said raider has 2 mindgames total and 3 combos which if he starts a light attack immediately exempts the other 2 (seriously why does he not have a LHH or a LHL) Raider's mindgames focus on heavy feinting and tricking your opponent to eating your chain finisher zone. He hits like a truck on meth but he lacks several things that he would need. Because his kit is so focused on these heavy feints, he is stamina intensive to do the same things others can do in half the amount and if the opp can reaction gb then you lose half your kit. He can however get some beefy hits and despite being unsafe his zone attack after a tackle into a wall is still really good against most people. I like to think of D-Tier as characters who can do ok, but in most cases are outmatched. And that is raider, unless you are amazing at fundementals of the game and can light parry often, he will be hard to use, but so fun to scream that zone voice line.

Gladiator

Light parries...this guy practically hands them out. Couple that with the worst reflex guard in the game (tied with shinobi) and he becomes one hell of a challenge. In my opinion, he is the worst assassin in the game, and I don't think many would argue. His solo potential is great, toestab is nice to spam, but he lacks diverse mindgames. Dodge lights from spear style weapons (glad, valk, and nobu) are notoriously easy to parry so he can't use those very often outside of ganks. His skewer is really easy to parry or dodge on reaction that maybe 1 out of every 20 thrown at you will be let flown unless its a new glad. Toe stab is nice but once your opp wises up to it, it loses all surprise and becomes a punish more than anything. Glad has around 6-7 chains ( i forgot to count) but only one is used which is LH or usually LH feint toestab/guardbreak. What glad has going for him is a decent harass with a bash on command with different timings from forward vs side, strong feints into free toestab damage which is one of the only light attacks in the game that cannot be parried, and one of the strongest deflects in the game (that is if you can ever land a deflect and not just dodge the attack) He is in D-Tier because he has a lot in his kit but most of it is not really usable.

Nobushi

This one hurt to put in here. I mained nobu way back in season 1 and loved to gank stomp with the old revenge 1 shot build. But again power creep claims another soul. In the hands of a solid player nobu is dangerous but as it stands she only can really fight 1 light at a time. Suffering from spear lights that many a player can parry on reaction, nobu carries a difficulty unwarrented for what punish she has. Nobu's heavies are almost impossible to land without getting parried outside of a wallsplat and her lights are spear lights. Nobu has dodge attacks but they don't have any i-frames so you have to chose between dodging or hitting, but not both. Nobu does have a bit going for her hence why she is up here over the others but it isn't really enough. Her kick has solid tracking and weird timing that makes it hard to counter, plus you can throw a light even if you miss. Her hidden stance is a fantastic dodge counter but with how fast some characters are often you will be hit trying to hit your counter after going full anime on their first hit, even if you do land it, you have 2 options: LL since the second will be guaranteed, or kick which gets a light unless wallsplat which gets a heavy. Nobu can stomp those who don't know how to counter her which is few but anywhere higher than that and she falls off fast in performance.

Lawbringer

Lawdaddy has fallen far. He became a monster of the battlefield following his rework but power creep is a terminal illness. Lawbringer has some solid counters and one of the strongest parry games in the entire roster, he can stop most combos off of 1 block and regain momentum quick. But the killing blow is one thing: he has to play too defensively to survive. Lawbringer lacks any viable openers of his own outside of a basic attack or parry bait, sure his impaling charge is a thing for 4v4s but if you get parried there goes all of your stamina, if you get blocked there goes 90% of your stamina. Decent harassment potential with his shove combos and his parry stuns are nice, but it is rare even on an exhausted stunned opponent you will ever land a heavy and his over reliance on parries and guardbreaks means your opp can either out turtle or out mindgame you quite easily. Again D-Tier is for the hard to use heroes that will mostly be outdone and that is the sad fact of life for lawdaddy, in the event of someone as equal skilled with their hero as you, it is more likely they will win. Some speed tweaks and actual openers is what this man-wall needs, something to make him less turtle-y.


C-Tier (the average joes)

Peacekeeper

Remember the days in school when "C" was an average grade but it still got your a** beat when you brought it home on your report card? I do, and so does PK. Solid harassment and bleed application, good zone with a soft feint on it, great chase down. But ever since that bleed stab nerf she has just been overshadowed by shaman. PK is bursty, (I SAID BURST YOU PERVERT) she can't really get any lengthy combos and features an over reliance on chip damage broken up by bleed stabs. You are basically waiting for your opponent to die most of the time. PK has some solid speed lights but they are somewhat easy to block, and her bleed stab is quite predictable resulting in a lot of parries. She also suffers from a slow side dodge attack that if your opponent baits out is a free parry. She has little to no mindgames save for heavy/zone feint into bleed stab/guardbreak kidney molest. Her kit has a focus but that focus is too slow for how the game is. Resulting in a very average performance.

Shinobi

The 2nd most maximum weeb after that new orochi execution came out, shinobi has a lot going for him but its not enough. Sharing the worst reflex guard with glad, shinobi has no defense. His double dodge is somewhat easy to bait and many characters can react and counter it easily. His ranged heavys and guardbreaks are only reliable when attacking someone out of lock, otherwise the risk is still way to massive for the reward. His double sprint feels token and promotes very cowardice gameplay in most cases and his parry counter is really lackluster. What shinobi does have is some of the best hit and run abilities in the game plus one of the best and most versatile deflects around, that and his 2 hit light guarantee combos plus sickle rain (for now till the shaman bleed grab nerf hits him too) is basically a death sentence in a gank and a huge punish in a 1v1. However shinobi doesn't really have mindgames and is highly predictable with how many of his moves force him into only a couple options, for example a double dodge can only really be followed by a kick or 2 lights, since a heavy would be easy parry most cases. This predictability combined with his low health means he can often be deleted from a fight almost instantly. But if played tactically and using hit and run well, he can do ok.

Beserker

Also known as the lesser shaman, beserker's buff way back with kensei was received with mixed opinion. Many were happy but many more called it lazy, that they just tacked hyperarmor on and called it good (which they kinda did but whatever). Beserker is one of the best harassment characters in game, requiring very little to get going and a lot to stop, encountering a beserker who knows how to feint is terrifying as it most cases results in losing 80% hp before you can stop them. Beserker lacks in a few things in that he doesn't have much besides attac, for he does not protec. All of beserker's moves are hits in some variation, his leaping and dodge attacks are pretty easy to block or parry and 95% of the time it isnt worth to throw a heavy finisher for how slow they are. Bezerker's deflect is a solid free gb but as we established deflects suck most of the time. Beserker's hyper armor is also a bit of a double edged sword as sometimes getting stunned out of something allows you to go on the defense but since he almost always has it, he can often eat too many attacks and die. Again i know good beserkers exist but again objectively his kit relies too much on flurry spamming.


B-Tier (The good ones, but not the meta)

Highlander

DONEMAGLASS HIM. Highlander is a tricky one to place, he is slow as all hell and a large portion of his kit is unused. But you cannot deny the mindgame potential this guy has. Getting grabbed by a caber toss, eating a kick into heavy, or just getting smashed with a heavy: the punishes that highlander has are insane. He hits hard which is what makes him so good, he has several mindgames to bait an opp into getting hit with a LOT of damage and his defensive form can be used to stage a comeback and stop momentum. His downfalls are that his defensive form isn't as good as it could be and he is massive parry bait. But in my humble opinion that is a fair tradeoff for easy access heavys that hit for as much as they do and are guaranteed on 2 occasions which are quite strong.Highlander is trickier to use in 1v1 but absolute hell in ganks. He is in B-tier because in the hands of a noob he gets annihilated but in a good player's hands he can be dangerous.

Valkyrie

Oh my there was a time where she was meta but no more. With the addition of the Wu Lin valk took a bit of a hit. She suffers from the same light parry timing all spear users do so often she can be punished hard. Her light spam and heavy mixups are good and her spear sweep is a TON of damage if you land it. Her shoulder pin is underused and underrated and her harassment is great. But easy light parries plus anyone who knows how to dodge spear sweep leaves valk in a hard spot, combine that with you NEVER being able to land a naked heavy outside of a wallsplat and that spells trouble. This doesn't mean she is bad by any regard, she is actually good, just not meta right now.

Nuxia

The lowest scoring Wu Lin, Nuxia is brain-dead easy to pick up but she doesn't really put out much short of blind light spam. She is over reliant on attacking one person at a time and her spamming attacks leave her open to counter. What she does have that is great however, is her parry, deflect, and traps. They pin the opponent, or regain momentum in the case of the deflect, leaving them vulnerable to be erased off the battlefield by a strong attack. She has strong control of the fight but missing one trap or getting parried once is a huge punish for her. A lot will say she is bad but I say she just isn't massively powerful like her brethren.

Aramusha

Bit of a sleeper cell charater, I almost put him in A tier, but his infinite makes him a bit too predictable. Aramusha has an infinite combo that can shred and the deadly feints he uses can really mess someone up if they aren't careful. But his strongest asset is his sword wall and it's ability to bounce back in a gank or losing scenario. Since it is a counter that features 4 different options its versatility can't be denied. Aramusha suffers from getting countered due to predictability a lot but if he can get a head of steam going he can quickly kill a ton of enemies. All in all, he is a solid good character. That is all really.

Shaman

Recently hit by the nerf hammer, getting bit by a shaman is no longer a death sentence even at full health. But that being said she still has a lot: decent bleed application, health regeneration, good fast attacks with 2 hit confirms, solid feint mind games, and her throws guarantee tackles or heavies. While she is strong in this regard, her mode of fighting is a little too predictable to be meta, we know she wants the bleed stab and we know she wants the grab or guardbreaks. This results in it being really hard to land any of those things, but again: she is still good. Like a beserker with bleed and guaranteed heavies.

Warden

Almost forgot the poor boi. Warden's rework was the perfect example of "just enough". Warden now stands as a solid all rounder character with good mindgames and enough guarantees and damage to still kill fast. His vortex isn't as op as it was but the tradeoff is better mindgames and one of the fastest openers in the entire game with range that clears 3/4 of a duel arena (i measured this on the samurai garden square duel map) add in one hell of a pimp slap (his zone) and warden has a couple attacks fast enough to contend with spam. His crushing counterstrike even discourages top attacks merely by EXISTING. And that is a powerful mindgame in and of itself.

Centurion

The walking cutscene, 50 Cent is quite the controversy. Many say he is op, many say he sucks. I think neither. He is one of the most balanced characters in the game and here is why: He does have bashes and kicks and throws that he can perform in a nigh infinite chain to pummel your stamina to 0. He does have the hardest wallsplat punish in the game and is hell to fight and try to counter. But he lacks any viable openers short of a basic attack, since his leap is a free parry and his kick can be dodged on reaction. He also suffers from "T-Rex Arm Syndrome" in that his range is crap and his charge heavy feint into guardbreak has no range at all and requires you to be kissing distance to your opp most cases. He has power where he specializes but he also has counters and takes ages to do damage meaning in a gank he can't get off many combos. This is what balances him and makes him good but not op.


A-Tier (the meta)

Tiandi

I AM TIANDI!! We have heard it so much now. Tiandi hits meta tier due to having extended dodge on his dodge heavies, undodgeable dodge lights, lightning fast basic lights and heavies with decent damage. Plus despite all his chains being only 2 hits long, his mixups extend those chains with bashes and mindgames galore. His speed and chasedown makes it hard to counter a good Tiandi and even harder to hit one while they are doing their dancing mindgame nonsense. Not too broken, tiandi has everything that a vanguard needs to be good, plus a bit more.

Jiang Jun

Grandpa Guandao as i like to call him, good ol' JJ is much better after the bug fixes to his attacks. He is a good heavy who is an absolute monster when outnumbered. He has the most aoe attacks in the game and his mindgames are solid. Couple that with heavies that are slow, but still fast, and some good unblockables and a powerful parry counter and you have yourself a good character. JJ can handle ganks as a heavy should be able to but he is also still counterable which is admirable. He is a solid character with good combos and mindgames, his primary weaknesses being his easy to parry attacks and an over reliance on dodging making him vulnerable to guardbreaks if not careful. Powerful and fair.

Conquerer

RAH RAH RAH! Conquerer used to be the biggest turtle in the game next to shugo, but now he is a mixup god. His counter potential is undeniable and his soft feints are really good and allow him to control the fight quite well. His attacks are easy to parry but that plays into his favor with his shield uppercut and fullblock soft feints. His zone pulls double duty as a zone and a defensive tool. His unblockables hit for a ton of damage and if you can manage to land it, the superior block on heavies is quite nice. He is a strong character that holds his own as a heavy, despite not being as tanky as some of them.

Orochi

R1 R1 R1 aud infinitum. Orochi is this games biggest offender of light spam and a massive subject of controversy. Many say that his lights alone make him op, but they clearly haven't seen an orochi that can deflect or use his dashing heavies or his backstep slash properly. Orochi keeps a decent flow of damage and can turn the aggro of the fight on a dime, has one of the most functional zones in the game, and all in all is one of if not the best assassin in the game. Orochis are countered however, usually by parrying the second light or baiting out a counter which carries a huge punish to it. But none of that stops this weeblord too much.

Kensei

One of the biggest successes in rework history, kensei is a feint god now. Featuring combos of any 3 hit chain of lights and heavies, 4 options to soft feint on EVERY top heavy, a solid chip damage zone, and some of the best dodge attacks in the game. Kensei has a little of everything and can mindgame 4 steps ahead, making them quite hard to fight. This is balanced out by kensei burning a lot of stamina just for 1 or 2 hits, and while easily parried, kenseis have amazing mindgame potential that requires your opp to out read you in the fight.


S-Tier (the S stands for Shaolin)

Shaolin

Those of you counting at home will find this is the ONLY character I put in S tier. Now I have my reasoning so hear me out. After sitting for 20 minutes I figured out what shaolin DOESN'T have. It's a parry counter and a pin. Otherwise shaolin has the following: A sprinting kick and an alternate stance kick that both guarantee light attacks and basically guarantee an unblockable, an infinite chain of extremely fast lights and slightly slower heavies that can be done in any configuration of non-repeating sides, dodge attacks with solid tracking, a 3 hit confirmed combo that can be used as a 2 hit confirm into his stance, an alternate stance that gives the following: an unblockable top, undodgeable sides, crushing counterstrike lights, a good kick that guarantees a light or a safe enough heavy or a sweep. He also has a deflect and a decent amount of health on account of being a hybrid, stunning tap on his throws and one of his top side attacks also stuns, though I'm not sure which. With virtually everything in the game and almost no counters, the only way to really reliably beat a shaolin is to be better than them. Just straight up better. I'm not mad, just disappointed.


If you made it this far, thank you. It took me forever to type this up and I put a lot of work into it so please, do me a favor and tell me why I am wrong in the comments and how I should uninstall the game like you already are going to do. Sorry for the light novel of text but I wanted there to be reasoning more than just a list. Also sorry I did not fully put them in order and just categorized them but I have neither the patience nor the expertise to do that. Remember: I mostly did this based off of what the character had for a kit and what they could do with it, not off of how good some of you are with them. Thanks for reading!

Tyrjo
12-10-2018, 05:32 PM
I'll only comment on Warlord because that is what I know best.

What can a good Warlord do? Crashing Charge, or rather, "how to cheese with Warlord". Headbutt is average at best and his throw is not really something that is very useful in 1vs1 scenarios unless there is a ledge nearby.

It has been confirmed he's getting some changes, we'll see how they turn out...

EvoX.
12-10-2018, 05:51 PM
The list is probably correct to the T when it comes to Gold ranks combined with console. There's not much to say other than this, you just have a different experience with the game. This can't be wrong because it's not a universal tier list, it sounds more like your opinion based on your experience.

It's normal that you consider some weak characters good or balanced while disregarding the actual strong ones, this is the case in a lot of PvP's low/mid-levels. As you increase your skill and dive into the higher levels, you'll start seeing a shift in the placements you gave the heroes, aligning them more closely to the official competitive tier list.

bannex19
12-10-2018, 07:31 PM
It's a good take on the roster and actually a pretty good read. I don't have anything to add or any critiques because I'm casual pve trash now but thanks for writing it!

Vendelkin
12-10-2018, 07:57 PM
Yeah its actually pretty close to correct.
As others said: as you progress to higher tier play a few things will change.

Aramusha will go down two in the rankings, orochi slightly 1 down, shinobi up one. And berserker way up to the top. (Trust me on this a good berserker player is the cream of the crop)

I would also personally put JJ in S tier along with berserker and lower shaolin down 1 tier.

^all of the above apply to very high lvl play

papa_joseph1
12-10-2018, 10:20 PM
Well put togeather, love your list and you've put it all quite well.

Makes me sad the 7 foot tall man in full plate armor [That is apparently the best armor on the planet according to lore] with a space marine like build has less hyper armor then a guy not wearing a shirt [IE Beserker]

Law Daddy is a bad choice for most everything unless you just want to be a cheesy gank and impale to wall splat, let's get real here, JJ is just a better pick across the board if you want a long reach heavy, combine this with the fact Law Bringer's melee hitbox is litearly broken [A side step dodges his unblockable finisher off the shove, even though the pole axe's model goes though them ] By ingame measurements, LawBringer's pole axe is the longest weapon in the game, yet he barely ever uses his reach.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
12-10-2018, 11:28 PM
Im not going to comment however I primarily use shugoki (Rep 60) and Pk (Rep 32) in dominion. Now solely in dominion shugoki is far more useful than Pk on console.

Before getting into that I have to say your wrong about the sentiment of shugokis passive HA. I love his passive HA just not the way it's been implemented with his extra damage and going down even if counter gbed. His Play style is the most unique and kept me interested in the game when my two mains val and Pk got a crap rework and Nerfed. So no passive HA completely changes how you have to play the game and it would be a shame to get rid of it.

Now back on the subject of shugoki being better than Pk. First with his perks and revenge along with DE from wall splats and capturing frames during knock down he has unlimited health potential (also his one shot ability is very important with the perk that gives a shield after revenge)
Seconds his side swipe charged heavy is guaranteed.
Third while ganking he can get a raw DE attempt with little consequences and big damage.
4th. His DE demon ball and light headbutt do a great job of wasting an opponents revenge when he is being ganked.
5th his revenge charged heavy if landed on multiple opponents during a group fight can change the course of a group battle easily.

Velentix
12-11-2018, 12:51 AM
I would agree with this tier list for the most part, I would just put warden and zerker in s tier.

chukblok
12-11-2018, 04:10 AM
Yeah its actually pretty close to correct.
As others said: as you progress to higher tier play a few things will change.

Aramusha will go down two in the rankings, orochi slightly 1 down, shinobi up one. And berserker way up to the top. (Trust me on this a good berserker player is the cream of the crop)

I would also personally put JJ in S tier along with berserker and lower shaolin down 1 tier.

^all of the above apply to very high lvl play

Vendelkin I believe i just played with you.

Good read OP. I dont really disagree.

Vendelkin
12-11-2018, 04:53 AM
Vendelkin I believe i just played with you.

Good read OP. I dont really disagree.

You totally did! I was trying berserker for the first time ever haha.

chukblok
12-11-2018, 04:03 PM
You totally did! I was trying berserker for the first time ever haha.

Me too with the shaman. I like her I surprised myself. only rep 1.

Vakris_One
12-11-2018, 05:37 PM
You guys are doing this all wrong. We should be telling the OP that he is wrong for having a personal opinion and that he should not only uninstall the game but also set fire to the hard drive it was on. This forum has a reputation to uphold gosh darnit!

The_Sun_Danc3
12-12-2018, 02:29 AM
Im not going to comment however I primarily use shugoki (Rep 60) and Pk (Rep 32) in dominion. Now solely in dominion shugoki is far more useful than Pk on console.

Before getting into that I have to say your wrong about the sentiment of shugokis passive HA. I love his passive HA just not the way it's been implemented with his extra damage and going down even if counter gbed. His Play style is the most unique and kept me interested in the game when my two mains val and Pk got a crap rework and Nerfed. So no passive HA completely changes how you have to play the game and it would be a shame to get rid of it.

Now back on the subject of shugoki being better than Pk. First with his perks and revenge along with DE from wall splats and capturing frames during knock down he has unlimited health potential (also his one shot ability is very important with the perk that gives a shield after revenge)
Seconds his side swipe charged heavy is guaranteed.
Third while ganking he can get a raw DE attempt with little consequences and big damage.
4th. His DE demon ball and light headbutt do a great job of wasting an opponents revenge when he is being ganked.
5th his revenge charged heavy if landed on multiple opponents during a group fight can change the course of a group battle easily.

Completely agree. People in lower tiers never believe me and basically call me crazy, but pk is really only good for her speed to cap objectives in 4v4s but she is completely useless against a great turtle. Literally the only thing you have against a turtle is heavy feint to bleed (which still has a 50% chance to not hit on first attempt and that percentage only increases with each attempt)
On top of being incredibly hard to land an attack she eats stamina like a heavy, and to make matters worse she’s incredibly underpowered so you feel like you have to work twice as hard or be twice as good as your opponent.
Like everybody says, she’s the forgotten shaman prototype.
Really her only advantage is her 1.7% pick rate. People are unused to playing her so you might catch them off guard

Vendelkin
12-12-2018, 04:58 AM
Me too with the shaman. I like her I surprised myself. only rep 1.
My shamans at rep 2. Both her and berserker are really easy to pick up and get into, especially with the new training mode that teaches you a few tricks. That was a great goofy match haha.

Vendelkin
12-12-2018, 05:01 AM
Completely agree. People in lower tiers never believe me and basically call me crazy, but pk is really only good for her speed to cap objectives in 4v4s but she is completely useless against a great turtle. Literally the only thing you have against a turtle is heavy feint to bleed (which still has a 50% chance to not hit on first attempt and that percentage only increases with each attempt)
On top of being incredibly hard to land an attack she eats stamina like a heavy, and to make matters worse she’s incredibly underpowered so you feel like you have to work twice as hard or be twice as good as your opponent.
Like everybody says, she’s the forgotten shaman prototype.
Really her only advantage is her 1.7% pick rate. People are unused to playing her so you might catch them off guard

Replied mainly to keep the topic ontopic.

I personally find peacekeepers are either super easy to kill, or are the god of feinting to keep a near infinite combo somehow haha. However I have to admit its very possible im terrible against good peacekeepers simply because i dont see them very much. That being said tho i still would put peacekeeper above shugoki and nobushi.

Definately lower than lawbringer, raider, and glad.
Glads kinda in a weird hard to define spot too right now. He needs a better guard.

The_Sentinel_
12-13-2018, 06:38 PM
Welcome!

I thought i would try my hand at a tier list. But for a caveat, I am not, nor will i likely ever be, a diamond tier player. That being said, I have still played every character to some extent (and yes I have looked at the win matrix for past season). After all that I guarantee you all will still call me stupid for this but I have my reasons for putting characters where I have them here and in no way is it intended to **** on your main. A character can be fun but still be bad, and a bad character can still be played well by a good player but objective evidence is what I am trying to focus on here. So let's get started and let the hate flow! I'm also going to commit a cardinal sin and not put these characters in any particular order, just in their tiers. Because I honestly don't have the time to sit and sort all 22 of these dudes into an organized list.

F Tier (As in why the F*** would you use them?)

Shugoki
Yeah, you saw this coming. Still with no rework, over half a year past the promised due date, good ol' shugo should have been the first to receive one. Shugoki is regarded as one of the worst characters in the game at this point. My reasoning for putting him in this tier normally nonexistant in most lists is because of how bad he is compared to what we have now. Back in season 1 a shugo was a solid ally to have in 4v4's but now, he has been power creeped over enough that it is amazing anyone still likes him. His kit is starved of anything viable, he can only strike one hit at a time due to how slow he is (assuming you play him "safe"), he takes a bonus 25% damage after using the main focus of his kit: the hyper armor, he has a token 1-shot that not even shugo mains really like, his fully charged heavy is an easy counter and if parried puts him into exhaustion. All in all shugo has 3 options when fighting someone, light into an attack and headbutt, heavy into an attack and headbutt (which is basically the same thing), or guardbreak to hopefully wallsplat into demon's embrace, which by the way you lose hyper armor, do not keep it if struck twice, lose a lot of hp if missed, and it is punishable by a free guardbreak or heavy. Rework inbound though so lets hope our big fat guy can just get out of being the objectively worst character in the game.

Warlord

Here come's the salt. Yes I understand what a good warlord can do, yes I understand how he operates and what a good one can do. But remember i said objective reasons here and warlord's kit is.....something. Not nearly as bad as shugo, warlord has a kit that doesn't really work anymore. His counter potential is great but every one of his counters in full block can be counter countered. The stab and heavy can be blocked and the headbutt if done right can be dodged. He has a whopping TWO CHAINS both of which are 2 hit combos having to alternate between light or heavy, making him REALLY predictable. His full block takes far too long to enter with how fast characters are these days to use effectively on reaction and most people will try to bait it out for a free gb. The two things warlord has going for him are his grab, which is one of the easiest ledging throws in the game, and his headbutt, which is hard to dodge on reaction and many people will eat a few before they counter. All in all, he needs an updated kit to stay with the times, good warlords still exist i know, but they have to try SO SO MUCH HARDER than say a moderately good shaolin.


D-Tier (Yes i know i skipped a letter, shutup)

Raider

D-tier is hard to classify because it really holds some hidden gems but a few deserve to be here, Raider is not one of them. Raider is only here due to his somewhat starved kit and he is the only one of the main three vanguards that is still the same as before. I was going to F-tier him before i played him but now i see raider can be a monster. That being said raider has 2 mindgames total and 3 combos which if he starts a light attack immediately exempts the other 2 (seriously why does he not have a LHH or a LHL) Raider's mindgames focus on heavy feinting and tricking your opponent to eating your chain finisher zone. He hits like a truck on meth but he lacks several things that he would need. Because his kit is so focused on these heavy feints, he is stamina intensive to do the same things others can do in half the amount and if the opp can reaction gb then you lose half your kit. He can however get some beefy hits and despite being unsafe his zone attack after a tackle into a wall is still really good against most people. I like to think of D-Tier as characters who can do ok, but in most cases are outmatched. And that is raider, unless you are amazing at fundementals of the game and can light parry often, he will be hard to use, but so fun to scream that zone voice line.

Gladiator

Light parries...this guy practically hands them out. Couple that with the worst reflex guard in the game (tied with shinobi) and he becomes one hell of a challenge. In my opinion, he is the worst assassin in the game, and I don't think many would argue. His solo potential is great, toestab is nice to spam, but he lacks diverse mindgames. Dodge lights from spear style weapons (glad, valk, and nobu) are notoriously easy to parry so he can't use those very often outside of ganks. His skewer is really easy to parry or dodge on reaction that maybe 1 out of every 20 thrown at you will be let flown unless its a new glad. Toe stab is nice but once your opp wises up to it, it loses all surprise and becomes a punish more than anything. Glad has around 6-7 chains ( i forgot to count) but only one is used which is LH or usually LH feint toestab/guardbreak. What glad has going for him is a decent harass with a bash on command with different timings from forward vs side, strong feints into free toestab damage which is one of the only light attacks in the game that cannot be parried, and one of the strongest deflects in the game (that is if you can ever land a deflect and not just dodge the attack) He is in D-Tier because he has a lot in his kit but most of it is not really usable.

Nobushi

This one hurt to put in here. I mained nobu way back in season 1 and loved to gank stomp with the old revenge 1 shot build. But again power creep claims another soul. In the hands of a solid player nobu is dangerous but as it stands she only can really fight 1 light at a time. Suffering from spear lights that many a player can parry on reaction, nobu carries a difficulty unwarrented for what punish she has. Nobu's heavies are almost impossible to land without getting parried outside of a wallsplat and her lights are spear lights. Nobu has dodge attacks but they don't have any i-frames so you have to chose between dodging or hitting, but not both. Nobu does have a bit going for her hence why she is up here over the others but it isn't really enough. Her kick has solid tracking and weird timing that makes it hard to counter, plus you can throw a light even if you miss. Her hidden stance is a fantastic dodge counter but with how fast some characters are often you will be hit trying to hit your counter after going full anime on their first hit, even if you do land it, you have 2 options: LL since the second will be guaranteed, or kick which gets a light unless wallsplat which gets a heavy. Nobu can stomp those who don't know how to counter her which is few but anywhere higher than that and she falls off fast in performance.

Lawbringer

Lawdaddy has fallen far. He became a monster of the battlefield following his rework but power creep is a terminal illness. Lawbringer has some solid counters and one of the strongest parry games in the entire roster, he can stop most combos off of 1 block and regain momentum quick. But the killing blow is one thing: he has to play too defensively to survive. Lawbringer lacks any viable openers of his own outside of a basic attack or parry bait, sure his impaling charge is a thing for 4v4s but if you get parried there goes all of your stamina, if you get blocked there goes 90% of your stamina. Decent harassment potential with his shove combos and his parry stuns are nice, but it is rare even on an exhausted stunned opponent you will ever land a heavy and his over reliance on parries and guardbreaks means your opp can either out turtle or out mindgame you quite easily. Again D-Tier is for the hard to use heroes that will mostly be outdone and that is the sad fact of life for lawdaddy, in the event of someone as equal skilled with their hero as you, it is more likely they will win. Some speed tweaks and actual openers is what this man-wall needs, something to make him less turtle-y.


C-Tier (the average joes)

Peacekeeper

Remember the days in school when "C" was an average grade but it still got your a** beat when you brought it home on your report card? I do, and so does PK. Solid harassment and bleed application, good zone with a soft feint on it, great chase down. But ever since that bleed stab nerf she has just been overshadowed by shaman. PK is bursty, (I SAID BURST YOU PERVERT) she can't really get any lengthy combos and features an over reliance on chip damage broken up by bleed stabs. You are basically waiting for your opponent to die most of the time. PK has some solid speed lights but they are somewhat easy to block, and her bleed stab is quite predictable resulting in a lot of parries. She also suffers from a slow side dodge attack that if your opponent baits out is a free parry. She has little to no mindgames save for heavy/zone feint into bleed stab/guardbreak kidney molest. Her kit has a focus but that focus is too slow for how the game is. Resulting in a very average performance.

Shinobi

The 2nd most maximum weeb after that new orochi execution came out, shinobi has a lot going for him but its not enough. Sharing the worst reflex guard with glad, shinobi has no defense. His double dodge is somewhat easy to bait and many characters can react and counter it easily. His ranged heavys and guardbreaks are only reliable when attacking someone out of lock, otherwise the risk is still way to massive for the reward. His double sprint feels token and promotes very cowardice gameplay in most cases and his parry counter is really lackluster. What shinobi does have is some of the best hit and run abilities in the game plus one of the best and most versatile deflects around, that and his 2 hit light guarantee combos plus sickle rain (for now till the shaman bleed grab nerf hits him too) is basically a death sentence in a gank and a huge punish in a 1v1. However shinobi doesn't really have mindgames and is highly predictable with how many of his moves force him into only a couple options, for example a double dodge can only really be followed by a kick or 2 lights, since a heavy would be easy parry most cases. This predictability combined with his low health means he can often be deleted from a fight almost instantly. But if played tactically and using hit and run well, he can do ok.

Beserker

Also known as the lesser shaman, beserker's buff way back with kensei was received with mixed opinion. Many were happy but many more called it lazy, that they just tacked hyperarmor on and called it good (which they kinda did but whatever). Beserker is one of the best harassment characters in game, requiring very little to get going and a lot to stop, encountering a beserker who knows how to feint is terrifying as it most cases results in losing 80% hp before you can stop them. Beserker lacks in a few things in that he doesn't have much besides attac, for he does not protec. All of beserker's moves are hits in some variation, his leaping and dodge attacks are pretty easy to block or parry and 95% of the time it isnt worth to throw a heavy finisher for how slow they are. Bezerker's deflect is a solid free gb but as we established deflects suck most of the time. Beserker's hyper armor is also a bit of a double edged sword as sometimes getting stunned out of something allows you to go on the defense but since he almost always has it, he can often eat too many attacks and die. Again i know good beserkers exist but again objectively his kit relies too much on flurry spamming.


B-Tier (The good ones, but not the meta)

Highlander

DONEMAGLASS HIM. Highlander is a tricky one to place, he is slow as all hell and a large portion of his kit is unused. But you cannot deny the mindgame potential this guy has. Getting grabbed by a caber toss, eating a kick into heavy, or just getting smashed with a heavy: the punishes that highlander has are insane. He hits hard which is what makes him so good, he has several mindgames to bait an opp into getting hit with a LOT of damage and his defensive form can be used to stage a comeback and stop momentum. His downfalls are that his defensive form isn't as good as it could be and he is massive parry bait. But in my humble opinion that is a fair tradeoff for easy access heavys that hit for as much as they do and are guaranteed on 2 occasions which are quite strong.Highlander is trickier to use in 1v1 but absolute hell in ganks. He is in B-tier because in the hands of a noob he gets annihilated but in a good player's hands he can be dangerous.

Valkyrie

Oh my there was a time where she was meta but no more. With the addition of the Wu Lin valk took a bit of a hit. She suffers from the same light parry timing all spear users do so often she can be punished hard. Her light spam and heavy mixups are good and her spear sweep is a TON of damage if you land it. Her shoulder pin is underused and underrated and her harassment is great. But easy light parries plus anyone who knows how to dodge spear sweep leaves valk in a hard spot, combine that with you NEVER being able to land a naked heavy outside of a wallsplat and that spells trouble. This doesn't mean she is bad by any regard, she is actually good, just not meta right now.

Nuxia

The lowest scoring Wu Lin, Nuxia is brain-dead easy to pick up but she doesn't really put out much short of blind light spam. She is over reliant on attacking one person at a time and her spamming attacks leave her open to counter. What she does have that is great however, is her parry, deflect, and traps. They pin the opponent, or regain momentum in the case of the deflect, leaving them vulnerable to be erased off the battlefield by a strong attack. She has strong control of the fight but missing one trap or getting parried once is a huge punish for her. A lot will say she is bad but I say she just isn't massively powerful like her brethren.

Aramusha

Bit of a sleeper cell charater, I almost put him in A tier, but his infinite makes him a bit too predictable. Aramusha has an infinite combo that can shred and the deadly feints he uses can really mess someone up if they aren't careful. But his strongest asset is his sword wall and it's ability to bounce back in a gank or losing scenario. Since it is a counter that features 4 different options its versatility can't be denied. Aramusha suffers from getting countered due to predictability a lot but if he can get a head of steam going he can quickly kill a ton of enemies. All in all, he is a solid good character. That is all really.

Shaman

Recently hit by the nerf hammer, getting bit by a shaman is no longer a death sentence even at full health. But that being said she still has a lot: decent bleed application, health regeneration, good fast attacks with 2 hit confirms, solid feint mind games, and her throws guarantee tackles or heavies. While she is strong in this regard, her mode of fighting is a little too predictable to be meta, we know she wants the bleed stab and we know she wants the grab or guardbreaks. This results in it being really hard to land any of those things, but again: she is still good. Like a beserker with bleed and guaranteed heavies.

Warden

Almost forgot the poor boi. Warden's rework was the perfect example of "just enough". Warden now stands as a solid all rounder character with good mindgames and enough guarantees and damage to still kill fast. His vortex isn't as op as it was but the tradeoff is better mindgames and one of the fastest openers in the entire game with range that clears 3/4 of a duel arena (i measured this on the samurai garden square duel map) add in one hell of a pimp slap (his zone) and warden has a couple attacks fast enough to contend with spam. His crushing counterstrike even discourages top attacks merely by EXISTING. And that is a powerful mindgame in and of itself.

Centurion

The walking cutscene, 50 Cent is quite the controversy. Many say he is op, many say he sucks. I think neither. He is one of the most balanced characters in the game and here is why: He does have bashes and kicks and throws that he can perform in a nigh infinite chain to pummel your stamina to 0. He does have the hardest wallsplat punish in the game and is hell to fight and try to counter. But he lacks any viable openers short of a basic attack, since his leap is a free parry and his kick can be dodged on reaction. He also suffers from "T-Rex Arm Syndrome" in that his range is crap and his charge heavy feint into guardbreak has no range at all and requires you to be kissing distance to your opp most cases. He has power where he specializes but he also has counters and takes ages to do damage meaning in a gank he can't get off many combos. This is what balances him and makes him good but not op.


A-Tier (the meta)

Tiandi

I AM TIANDI!! We have heard it so much now. Tiandi hits meta tier due to having extended dodge on his dodge heavies, undodgeable dodge lights, lightning fast basic lights and heavies with decent damage. Plus despite all his chains being only 2 hits long, his mixups extend those chains with bashes and mindgames galore. His speed and chasedown makes it hard to counter a good Tiandi and even harder to hit one while they are doing their dancing mindgame nonsense. Not too broken, tiandi has everything that a vanguard needs to be good, plus a bit more.

Jiang Jun

Grandpa Guandao as i like to call him, good ol' JJ is much better after the bug fixes to his attacks. He is a good heavy who is an absolute monster when outnumbered. He has the most aoe attacks in the game and his mindgames are solid. Couple that with heavies that are slow, but still fast, and some good unblockables and a powerful parry counter and you have yourself a good character. JJ can handle ganks as a heavy should be able to but he is also still counterable which is admirable. He is a solid character with good combos and mindgames, his primary weaknesses being his easy to parry attacks and an over reliance on dodging making him vulnerable to guardbreaks if not careful. Powerful and fair.

Conquerer

RAH RAH RAH! Conquerer used to be the biggest turtle in the game next to shugo, but now he is a mixup god. His counter potential is undeniable and his soft feints are really good and allow him to control the fight quite well. His attacks are easy to parry but that plays into his favor with his shield uppercut and fullblock soft feints. His zone pulls double duty as a zone and a defensive tool. His unblockables hit for a ton of damage and if you can manage to land it, the superior block on heavies is quite nice. He is a strong character that holds his own as a heavy, despite not being as tanky as some of them.

Orochi

R1 R1 R1 aud infinitum. Orochi is this games biggest offender of light spam and a massive subject of controversy. Many say that his lights alone make him op, but they clearly haven't seen an orochi that can deflect or use his dashing heavies or his backstep slash properly. Orochi keeps a decent flow of damage and can turn the aggro of the fight on a dime, has one of the most functional zones in the game, and all in all is one of if not the best assassin in the game. Orochis are countered however, usually by parrying the second light or baiting out a counter which carries a huge punish to it. But none of that stops this weeblord too much.

Kensei

One of the biggest successes in rework history, kensei is a feint god now. Featuring combos of any 3 hit chain of lights and heavies, 4 options to soft feint on EVERY top heavy, a solid chip damage zone, and some of the best dodge attacks in the game. Kensei has a little of everything and can mindgame 4 steps ahead, making them quite hard to fight. This is balanced out by kensei burning a lot of stamina just for 1 or 2 hits, and while easily parried, kenseis have amazing mindgame potential that requires your opp to out read you in the fight.


S-Tier (the S stands for Shaolin)

Shaolin

Those of you counting at home will find this is the ONLY character I put in S tier. Now I have my reasoning so hear me out. After sitting for 20 minutes I figured out what shaolin DOESN'T have. It's a parry counter and a pin. Otherwise shaolin has the following: A sprinting kick and an alternate stance kick that both guarantee light attacks and basically guarantee an unblockable, an infinite chain of extremely fast lights and slightly slower heavies that can be done in any configuration of non-repeating sides, dodge attacks with solid tracking, a 3 hit confirmed combo that can be used as a 2 hit confirm into his stance, an alternate stance that gives the following: an unblockable top, undodgeable sides, crushing counterstrike lights, a good kick that guarantees a light or a safe enough heavy or a sweep. He also has a deflect and a decent amount of health on account of being a hybrid, stunning tap on his throws and one of his top side attacks also stuns, though I'm not sure which. With virtually everything in the game and almost no counters, the only way to really reliably beat a shaolin is to be better than them. Just straight up better. I'm not mad, just disappointed.


If you made it this far, thank you. It took me forever to type this up and I put a lot of work into it so please, do me a favor and tell me why I am wrong in the comments and how I should uninstall the game like you already are going to do. Sorry for the light novel of text but I wanted there to be reasoning more than just a list. Also sorry I did not fully put them in order and just categorized them but I have neither the patience nor the expertise to do that. Remember: I mostly did this based off of what the character had for a kit and what they could do with it, not off of how good some of you are with them. Thanks for reading!

If this is for duels which I presume it is, Glad should be higher in the list. Zerker is god in duels, defo S tier.

CandleInTheDark
12-14-2018, 04:52 AM
In terms of the shugoki and warlord I can tell you what they have been saying on the Den.

Shugoki, large scale balance pass (and new animations if I remember correctly), due season nine meaning by January. In on the floor testing they asked Steffan to nerf rework shugoki.

The maps guy who was in last week plays Warlord, he had a conversation with Steffan and came away from it happy, so I am assuming that is in the works also, again if I remember they said that is also season nine but don't quote me on that one because it was a one line comment if I recall and I am nowhere near sure enough.

p0wn3rki11
12-16-2018, 02:16 PM
I don't know if you thought this but i did not bother to put them in any particular ranking order, just into their tiers. Other than that i appreciate the input.

p0wn3rki11
12-16-2018, 02:18 PM
These are indeed taken from console, don't know what rank because I haven't bothered to play ranked matches since they are a dead lobby.

p0wn3rki11
12-16-2018, 02:23 PM
I understand what you are saying for goki and his potential in 4v4's and I too love his playstyle for some odd reason. That being said, I looked at their potential alone without feats or revenge. The character itself. And goki just doesn't have enough in his kit compared to her. Also your third point is just flat out wrong from my experience in most cases against opponents with mild situational awareness, as often they will dodge it and hit you real quick for a huge punish. I have a bit more success just standing there "looking tough" distracting the hell out of them causing my allies to be able to attack easier. Again though, my experience is all.

p0wn3rki11
12-16-2018, 02:30 PM
I don't disagree with warden and zerker being good, though less so zerker for lack of any cc beyond hittng, but part of the reason i don't have them in S tier is because of how much more shaolin has over everyone.It's one part sort of a joke that hes the only S tier and one part seriousness that this is not ok. I play on console and shaolin is a pain with everything we have going on over here (30 fps resulting in some things being actually impossible to react and all that). I'm surprised as many agreed as they did to be honest.

p0wn3rki11
12-16-2018, 02:33 PM
Yeah i saw the reddit summary, i am tentatively hopeful for goki's rework. I do believe they did just say they were working on warlord for later on, don't think they gave specifics. Which will be interesting to see what they do because i have no idea what to do with him.

rottmeister
12-16-2018, 03:33 PM
I don't see how Berserker is a lesser Shaman?
They have similar moves but they play very differently.
Their offense is meant to overwhelm the opponent, but they do it differently.
Berserker does this by chaining and trading attacks while Shaman relies more on mindgames.
I think both are viable and amazing characters, that's why I play both.
In 1vs1 I would put Zerk over Shaman, purely because he has hyperarmor on basically anything and he has great damage overall.
He has an amazing deflect that completely ignores hyperarmor, good damage and a great zone attack.
In 4vs4 I would put Shaman above Zerk because of her bite and potential cutscenes when teamed up with a Centurion for example (Eagles Talon + Predator's Mercy does SO MUCH damage)
If anyone is a lesser Shaman, I would say it's Peacekeeper, after her massive nerf.

rottmeister
12-16-2018, 03:46 PM
I think Nuxia needs a little buff.
When an opponent knows how to counter your traps and can block your lights, there's pretty much nothing left to do apart from turtling.
Her deflect should be guaranteed, it's not even guaranteed when changing directions.
I hate how it can be countered.
In Arcade I kept dying because the bots would block, parry and deflect my deflects (thank god I finally have the effect).
I'd say either lower the damage and make it unblockable or give her an extra deflect option that is guaranteed but for less damage so you could choose.
As of right now deflecting with Nuxia is a High risk with potentially no reward while berzerker and shinobi have nothing to fear, theirs even goes through hyperarmor.

p0wn3rki11
12-16-2018, 05:52 PM
The best part about you saying Nuxia needs a buff is you failed to mention (or don't know) that you can emote to avoid a trap. It is one of the cheesiest things that I have seen so far and my friend, I have seen some cheddar. Again this list is from experience and observation, I just see shaman both more often and more successful that zerker. His lack of some form of anything besides swinging is a downfall of his, though he is probably the only one I list that I question the position that I put him in. It might have also swayed my opinion in that a friend and I duel a bit and he mained zerker first so I got good at countering him when the servers didn't s*** themselves. Nuxia's deflect should be guaranteed, no damage nerf, just should be guaranteed. It is a skill to deflect and even hyperarmor users still could keep going even if it was guaranteed.

rottmeister
12-16-2018, 06:47 PM
I am well aware that emote tech exists.
As a rep 11 Nuxia I've come across it a few times.
Usually it's not very effective because they always get hit by my follow up light.
Also I usually perform better when I'm agrivated so that's a rip for my enemy :p
I purposely didn't mention it because what you're suggesting would require some sort of an emote rework.
I find it odd to completely change something only for 1 character, but if there's no other possibility I wouldn't mind it ^^.
Now on to the deflect: I completely agree with you, it should be confirmed.

I am a rep 60 Shaman and a friend of mine is a rep 54(ish) Zerk.
A while back me and him did a 99 round duel (back when he was still ahead of me).
It was such a close match and I ended up winning (humble brag).
This was how I also learned how to counter a Zerk.
If I were to make a tier list I also wouldn't have put Zerk in S-tier because I got so used fighting him.
I guess everyone is (slightly) biased and so the tier lists are more of an opinion than facts imo.
I can't really say you're wrong on anything just because I think it's different, that's why I just asked.
Anyway I think it's a solid tier list :D