View Full Version : I may have just fixed the art of battle!

11-16-2018, 08:13 PM
A flash of innovation just hit me regarding the battle system and a "waypoint" towards a more balanced and enjoyable system. I will try to make this brief, but try to visualize what I am saying so you can see what I "saw".

So firstly; I not too recently watched a video on the state of for Honor balance by reavynne gaming. He brought up a point I had never considered before, but I knew to be true. The problem with the game and combat is the PARRY. The ability to Parry, whenever you please if you are so skilled is the reason why you (I was not here until season 7) had the defensive meta. Overcoming Parry and it's power brought on the 500ms and faster attacks as well as the bashes. This has been dubbed the bash/spam meta and is our current position /state.

Now as much as I am aware, there was first just standard attacks/block/guardbreak. This was too easy to defend against, so unblockables were introduced to beat out defense and Parry was introduced to counter unblockables. Parry would be fine as a mechanic if it only worked on unblockables, but it's a failsafe for all attacks and as such became a crutch to win. The idea I had to counter this was to change the state of battle. There is a quick fix and more intricate fix. I use the word fix/change interchangeably. Ok here goes:

Quick Fix:

# 1. Remove the Parry ability on all attacks except unblockables. (This would be problematic for a couple of reasons if just implemented without giving every member of the cast an unblockable(s), a bash(es), better Feints, openers, for obvious reasons. However if we assume everyone will get these eventually then this is a simple fix.)

# 2. Make parrying more skill based and reduce the return on them. Allow lights to parry lights and heavies to Parry heavies only. The return on a light or a heavy Parry should only be a light attack for non assasins. For assasins they should get their specialized punishes (shinobi, glad...etc..)

Intricate Fix:

#1. Implement a momentum system. I am not talking about physics, but I am talking about the flow of battle and it's pacing. This is about to get a little complex.

Momentum: What is it?

Momentum would be a guage(s) that keep track of your offense/defense progress in a fight. Attacks thrown/connected/hard feinted and attacks blocked/evaded/deflected would build momentum for your hero. By building up this/these bars; you get access to special attacks and defensive maneuvers that progress your offense/allow for greater defense. This system could replace revenge??

For example: Let's say this/these guages are worth 100 points each. Speacial attacks/defense would cost a number of points from this/these guage(s). Bashes could cost 25 momentum, unblockables could cost 35 momentum, softfeints could be 10 momentum...etc. These ^ are just for example. The ability to Parry would change. Every character would receive a full-block, but it will cost momentum to use(25). The full-block will resemble blade blockade in that it will not be allowed to be held, but only momentarily be effective. It will block, but not parry all standard attacks. The difference will be that at 50 momentum (again just an example, but for a rather steep cost) the full-block will parry all attacks. If this was indeed one guage that built, then all offense and defense would be regulated through it. You could not spam out all your bashes and unblockables and then turtle up wait for a Parry. You would have to choose your offense/defense carefully as well as mix in some regular attacks/guardbreaks/blocks/dodges to keep your momentum going and your options open.

As I saw it: My thoughts, taking the above into account would create a battle scenario where standard attacks and defense not only become more effective, but a necessary component to unlock the potential of your hero and utilizing more powerful moves. By changing to a guage(momentum) system. Then such tactics as bash spamming, Parry-turtling, and unblockable spamming become highly ineffective. Players would not always have access to those moves, but would also not be in constant danger of getting parried..etc... I think that a change of this nature is possible and would help the game immensely. It could even neutralize revenge by replacing it. The momentum guage could build very quickly in outnumbered scenarios. This would give the gankee access to parries/unblockables/hyper armor...etc, quicker and more consistently than the opposition.

What do you guys think? I really would like feedback on this idea. Not for the sake of the devs implementing it, but for your feedback/ideas that you have and if this sparked something in your minds as well? Did I paint the picture well enough?

11-16-2018, 11:40 PM
I dislike Raveyne. He doesn't really know the game as well as he thinks he does. And his hero guides are misleading because he calls them beginner to advanced guides yet he doesn't show anything about match up specifics. Or mentions any quirks a move might have. Like if they had a move that doesn't follow GB vulnerabilities rule of thumb. Or if it interacts with something differently.
At best he just shows psudeo combos that don't actually land on anyone good. I even brought this up to him and the feedback went ignored.

Anyway, parrying is not the lynch pin for the defensive meta. The parrying mechanic in itself is perfectly fine. It has a tight window of time and if you read the situation wrong you can be GBed trying to feint. it's a proper risk and reward system. The only issue tied to parrying is attack speed. Meaning that there are really only 3-5 attack speeds in the game you need to memorize to be considered decent at parrying. Where as in ANY other fighting game you need to learn the timings of each individual hero in order to perform your own strong punishes.

This issue comes from the fact that everything in the game is in 100ms increments. The devs are already expirementing with having varied ms increments. So this in theory should make parrying a lot more difficult for the average player. Especially if they fixed the buffered bug (which slows down every single attack by 67ms.)

The bigger issue when it comes to defense is that it's a passive action that is very forgiving. You can be set up for defense with static guard heros and still attack. That is not common for a fighting game. You're either fighting or blocking. Never both at the same time. Now if they wanted to address this while keeping the original art of battle system in play they simply need to give everyone a reflex guard. And have a timing on the decay some where between current assassin decay and shinobi's decay.

This wouldn't remove the passive style completely but it would make it a lot harder to defend on average. The other change would be to make it so all chain starting lights have the enhanced light property. Which means they wouldn't bounce off of someone's guard and you could continue your combo. This means the opponent can't simply shut out your offense before it began by simply blocking. They would have to be able to defend against the follow up to push the fight back to neutral. And since most heros can at least do some what of a mix up after getting into a combo this would be a strong boost to offense.

And the beautiful thing for all of my suggestions is that it doesn't remove the reward/possibility of a good defense. A good player would be able to basically have the fights as they are now. As their timing on blocking would be mastered. And they could parry any chain starter they were comfortable with. Halting the opponents offense and asking them to do more than just mash into it. Good players would be rewarded. Nothing really changes for low tier. and mid tier players (like myself) would have to massively step our game up to be decent at defending again.

As for your momentum system it sounds interesting. But I think it would effect far too much of the game. My changes do as well. But they still fall directly into the games current systems. Your suggestion would be a far bigger undertaking.