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View Full Version : My Thoughts after seeing the dev stream



iadvisoryi
11-16-2018, 12:00 AM
As a person who has avidly been pushing certain changes within the mechanics of the game, and balance changes for specific hero's/features, I'm happy to say season 9 sounds better than what we have currently.

But where my disappointment begins is that... Small, frequent, updates is soooo necessary for a game like this' success. Big updates are great and what everyone is waiting for, but smaller updates add variety in matches, if you give buffs to characters that need love, that will make some people switch off of their main character to go and test the improved one out, adding variety for a period of time. On top of that frequent updates allow the community to pick apart and come together on certain topics. Say for the big season patch you have 2 reworks coming, as a community we can say oh ok, then "this, this, and that" can also wait for that big update, but can we see SMALL improvements to this and this character next week or the week after? It creates a more positive, interactive conversation, and makes it more dynamic.

Ubisoft you said during the stream that there tends to be confusion with your feedback and communication between your community and the dev team. It's because when we make these posts, talking about our perspective and opinions, if we get a response from a team member, it's always a "could you go into more detail on such and such" "I will let the team in charge of balance know this is an idea" just vague general statements that can almost be applied to every post on here. Small updates on strictly balance, even if it's 1 character a week, or a few characters every two weeks, with minor changes making them better or nerfing a few things (mostly buffing older hero's up to par with current top tiers) it WILL show and give proof that you guys are listening and taking our voices into consideration.

:My Small Buff/Nerf list:

We already know lawbringer and shugoki are going to get touched up around next season, so for small nerfs/buffs this is what I'd like to see.

Peacekeeper- kit additions (I seen they talked about buffing her a bit but I personally find her kit not unique anymore, plain and boring, I'd like to see something refreshing with her)

Nobushi- buff (lack of chains, very slow reactable attacks, wouldn't take too much to get her up in level. I'd also like to see her "superior range" play out like Shaolin, he seems to actually be able to gain distance and preform at said distance, nobushi doesn't benefit nearly at all from being at range vs up close)

Warden- sb Nerf (I I think his instant popped sb should be slower/more reactable, since you can Dodge with it I believe that's what it almost strictly should be used for, to punish an opponent who whiffs an attack, not as an aggressive tool.)

Shaman- Nerf (I believe her jump in is too fast especially if it's a heavy, makes getting away from her near impossible)

Raider- buff (needs more chains so he can faint effectively, he's strong in 4v4s but mediocre in duals, I don't play him so I can't say anything else specificly so leave thoughts and opinions on him below)

Conq- Nerf (just overall, you've seen enough criticism on him to know he's insane)

Gladiator- (just something to make him more viable in 4v4's. He's incredibly single target which makes it difficult to team fight and fight around minions.)

Aramusha- buff (needs more of an opener than just trading a hit with his top dash-armored-heavy and his zone)

Centurion- buff/change (I think a small buff to his kick would be good for him in duals, I'd say down the stamina drain on it but make it as fast as a warlord headbut, this would give him a free light into a chain, and wouldn't make him op in 4v4s since he's already decently strong in 4v4's)

Berzerker- small Nerf (I think the tracking on some things he has is too much, if I dash away he shouldn't be able to swing once in his infinite and be right next to me with armor)

Highlander- small nerf (make his ub heavy on kick do 30-35 and same for caber toss, keep his regular ub heavies 40 dmg)

Shaolin- in general I don't think he should have a crushing counter, if he's in qi stance it should either be a strong defensive option or a strong offensive option not both, he's too much of a well rounded character, it makes using other hybrids obsolete.

In conclusion for the people who love the current state of the game, there will always be ways and things to do for improvement to make the game more fun and enjoyable to the community as a whole.

iadvisoryi
11-16-2018, 03:26 AM
Also as a side note I try not complain too much but I just want to see the game do better than it is fun wise, because I love the concept for the game and heros

Blitzwarrior771
11-16-2018, 03:37 AM
From the video I see no change they gonna make . They didnít pick crucial question to answer . Who cares about current hp stamina design over parry blocking and heavy attack issue ? Why they didnít answer that ? Because there will be no change .

ArchDukeInstinct
11-16-2018, 03:44 AM
OP you forgot the part where you broke down in tears because they weren't nerfing Conqueror. Anti-Conqs got clapped by the devs again!

darksavior1977
11-16-2018, 04:42 AM
As I see it a big balance update is coming, whether its all at once or in portions is up to Ubisoft. But the game itself has changed, perfect defense and ineffective offense have demanded it, however, not nearly all the heroes have kept up with this change. The recently reworked ones are better off, but others who have been nerfed into the ground (Shug, PK, Cent for example) need to be un-nerfed/fixed because when they were nerfed, it was prior to addressing that the game needed to move into a more offensive meta. Others just haven't been brought up to speed, and still are too defensive in their design to work in a meta trying to make offense more viable. I still advocate that all heroes need at this point a heavy unblockable attack and an opener from neutral at minimum. Since they seem opposed to using guaranteed damage combos instead of chain attacks that are not guaranteed to allow openings to be more offensively capitalized on (like all other fighting games do) then an opener that at least grants lights and maybe side heavies is what is working for the heroes that currently do well. Also heavies in general at higher level play are very hard to use with any reliability, so maybe look at reworking parry globally. Lastly, is the game being balanced for 4v4 or duels? Is it best to do all balancing at the highest level of play? Is that representative of the bulk of players? If its only a small but dedicated player segment, then it might not be the best balancing point for the entire game, since not everyone wants to play at the level of a tournament pro where you are basically burning your entire stamina bar on feints hoping to eventually land a light attack if you are lucky. That is for many, boring AF gameplay. Just some thoughts.

In general I thought it was a good point and one I agreed with, that changes shouldn't be so frequent that players rock one week and suck the next in a merry-go-round of nerfs and buffs, that will make the player base get annoyed and not want to invest in anything because of mechanics being so inconsistent, but more frequent than has been happening for sure. I think if they adopted a schedule of 3-4 heroes re-balanced per season, it would go pretty quick to bring some of the more broken ones up to snuff with the new, more offensive direction the game is heading. That said, imo, LB, Shug, and Raider should be priority re-works. Everyone else needs tweaked, un-nerfed from nerfs they've had, or some numerical buffs. I also think stamina pools need to be increased on all heroes a bit, its tuned a bit too tight atm, and some heroes more than others. It seems weird how much some heavy characters with bigger weapons can wail on opponents longer than small characters with lighter bodies and weapons before being exhausted. Also damage numbers for some heros need tweaking. Some heroes can kill several opponents with their damage and stamina, others can barely kill one before being exhausted.

iadvisoryi
11-16-2018, 05:05 AM
As I see it a big balance update is coming, whether its all at once or in portions is up to Ubisoft. But the game itself has changed, perfect defense and ineffective offense have demanded it, however, not nearly all the heroes have kept up with this change. The recently reworked ones are better off, but others who have been nerfed into the ground (Shug, PK, Cent for example) need to be un-nerfed/fixed because when they were nerfed, it was prior to addressing that the game needed to move into a more offensive meta. Others just haven't been brought up to speed, and still are too defensive in their design to work in a meta trying to make offense more viable. I still advocate that all heroes need at this point a heavy unblockable attack and an opener from neutral at minimum. Since they seem opposed to using guaranteed damage combos instead of chain attacks that are not guaranteed to allow openings to be more offensively capitalized on (like all other fighting games do) then an opener that at least grants lights and maybe side heavies is what is working for the heroes that currently do well. Also heavies in general at higher level play are very hard to use with any reliability, so maybe look at reworking parry globally. Lastly, is the game being balanced for 4v4 or duels? Is it best to do all balancing at the highest level of play? Is that representative of the bulk of players? If its only a small but dedicated player segment, then it might not be the best balancing point for the entire game, since not everyone wants to play at the level of a tournament pro where you are basically burning your entire stamina bar on feints hoping to eventually land a light attack if you are lucky. That is for many, boring AF gameplay. Just some thoughts.

In general I thought it was a good point and one I agreed with, that changes shouldn't be so frequent that players rock one week and suck the next in a merry-go-round of nerfs and buffs, that will make the player base get annoyed and not want to invest in anything because of mechanics being so inconsistent, but more frequent than has been happening for sure. I think if they adopted a schedule of 3-4 heroes re-balanced per season, it would go pretty quick to bring some of the more broken ones up to snuff with the new, more offensive direction the game is heading. That said, imo, LB, Shug, and Raider should be priority re-works. Everyone else needs tweaked, un-nerfed from nerfs they've had, or some numerical buffs. I also think stamina pools need to be increased on all heroes a bit, its tuned a bit too tight atm, and some heroes more than others. It seems weird how much some heavy characters with bigger weapons can wail on opponents longer than small characters with lighter bodies and weapons before being exhausted. Also damage numbers for some heros need tweaking. Some heroes can kill several opponents with their damage and stamina, others can barely kill one before being exhausted.

I understood your first point that's why I said mostly buffs. But as far as the frequent changes, i see that point of view of people maybe not wanting to invest in certain characters. For me personally investing time in characters is for the cosmetic purposes. Less of learning the characters ins and outs because in for Honor the characters aren't exactly all too complex. Every game from fighting games, to mobas, to fps games, such as overwatch, smite, mortal Kombat, Street fighter, league of legends, mostly competitive skill based games, have frequent updates because it's proved that small frequent updates are even better than long awaited big ones, because between each update there would only be few changes to focus on. The problem with big patches is that if they break a character, ruin a character, or break a mechanic, we have to wait months for them to fix it or balance it. Which is a huge issue with specific characters right now.

iadvisoryi
11-16-2018, 05:10 AM
OP you forgot the part where you broke down in tears because they weren't nerfing Conqueror. Anti-Conqs got clapped by the devs again!

I actually rarely fight conqs let alone good ones, but when I play ranked and I do fight a good one, it's ridiculous to open him up when he gets such easy Dodge punishes and can't be grabbed after he whiffs a sb, on top of his blocking zone, ub faints into full guard and faking a forward sb into a gb because it's the same animation.

I don't think he has a single losing match up from what I've seen and read.

But I'm assuming you're always this ignorant on posts because you literally have zero constructive feedback to opinions, and it's funny you specifically picked out conq out of all the characters I've listed to complain about. Good for you.

iadvisoryi
11-16-2018, 05:15 AM
OP you forgot the part where you broke down in tears because they weren't nerfing Conqueror. Anti-Conqs got clapped by the devs again!

I checked and you're literally in the top 0.1% of conqs on PSN at least. Idk why you wouldn't want inexperienced conqs to be on the same level as you because of his bustedness. Just sounds to me like you get carried by the character so you gotta be a on a forum post that said something about your precious hero.

ArchDukeInstinct
11-16-2018, 08:40 AM
I actually rarely fight conqs let alone good ones, but when I play ranked and I do fight a good one, it's ridiculous to open him up when he gets such easy Dodge punishes and can't be grabbed after he whiffs a sb, on top of his blocking zone, ub faints into full guard and faking a forward sb into a gb because it's the same animation.

I don't think he has a single losing match up from what I've seen and read.

But I'm assuming you're always this ignorant on posts because you literally have zero constructive feedback to opinions, and it's funny you specifically picked out conq out of all the characters I've listed to complain about. Good for you.

Shield bash misses can be GB'd, it's just a very strict timing because the reward of the move is so low. They can definitely be GB'd if you dodge early in reaction which isn't exactly out of the question when they are telegraphed with a preceding dodge.

Charged heavy into full block stance isn't a real mixup, you can beat it by feigning your parry attempt, walking backwards as you attempt the parry, or just dodge. You can completely nullify all the charged heavy options (letting it fly, full block stance, shield uppercut) with proper spacing and then simply back dodging when the Conqueror throws the charged heavy. Also if you want to take a risk, you can go for a guard break to catch a full block stance.

As for faking a forward sb into a gb, that's pretty much the only mixup Conqueror has since heavy into full block stance isn't a real one since there are various solutions that counter both options.


I checked and you're literally in the top 0.1% of conqs on PSN at least. Idk why you wouldn't want inexperienced conqs to be on the same level as you because of his bustedness. Just sounds to me like you get carried by the character so you gotta be a on a forum post that said something about your precious hero.

I'm in the top 100 on PSN and rank 102 for all platforms combined last I checked. I've been maining Conqueror since open beta and through all of year 1 when he was a C tier class. So no, I'm not carried by Conqueror, Anti-Conqs like to say things like that though because lets be honest, they're never going to get any real arguments.

iadvisoryi
11-16-2018, 09:02 AM
Shield bash misses can be GB'd, it's just a very strict timing because the reward of the move is so low. They can definitely be GB'd if you dodge early in reaction which isn't exactly out of the question when they are telegraphed with a preceding dodge.

Charged heavy into full block stance isn't a real mixup, you can beat it by feigning your parry attempt, walking backwards as you attempt the parry, or just dodge. You can completely nullify all the charged heavy options (letting it fly, full block stance, shield uppercut) with proper spacing and then simply back dodging when the Conqueror throws the charged heavy. Also if you want to take a risk, you can go for a guard break to catch a full block stance.

As for faking a forward sb into a gb, that's pretty much the only mixup Conqueror has since heavy into full block stance isn't a real one since there are various solutions that counter both options.



I'm in the top 100 on PSN and rank 102 for all platforms combined last I checked. I've been maining Conqueror since open beta and through all of year 1 when he was a C tier class. So no, I'm not carried by Conqueror, Anti-Conqs like to say things like that though because lets be honest, they're never going to get any real arguments.

The mix that I mentioned I haven't seen used on me but I've used it on people and it normally seems to make them throw a parry or Dodge and within that time you can cancel full block into a dashing sb. And with me saying he can't be gb'd after a sb whiff, if he throws a light after your telling me there's a gap between the sb and light? (Genuine question)

And no I said the "you probably get carried by him" comment because you came onto the post providing no feedback on my many topics other than just buffs and nerfs, and you only commented on the one that relates to you, with little feedback and much sass.

You clearly know what your talking about so if you have the time to read the original post I'd like your feedback.

Overall I wouldn't have mentioned conq, I don't see him too much even though I know his w/L is great. But recently I ran into one that clearly knew what they were doing, punished my mix with dash sb, and parried my openers. So I naturally thought if this is the extent that conq can be played in wtf lol. I couldn't open him up with anything. I was kensei.

ArchDukeInstinct
11-16-2018, 09:49 AM
The mix that I mentioned I haven't seen used on me but I've used it on people and it normally seems to make them throw a parry or Dodge and within that time you can cancel full block into a dashing sb. And with me saying he can't be gb'd after a sb whiff, if he throws a light after your telling me there's a gap between the sb and light? (Genuine question)

Going into full block stance delays any follow up actions by 400ms whereas a standard feint has hardly any delay at all, so there's really no way they can't dodge in time. It's hard to notice this delay until you really compare to a standard feint or were a Conqueror main pre-rework. Literally the first thing I noticed when I first played the reworked Conqueror was the massive delay on the full block cancel.

There's nuance between the multiple versions of shield bash as far as branching into an attack during miss recovery goes. Shield bash mixup (shield bash after an attack) you can branch into a light early before the miss recovery ends (but it's also a slow 700ms version of the move) but no early branching into an attack exists for the regular dash into shield bash so there's the full 700ms miss recovery before you can throw that light.

Against a side dodge bash if you instigated one by feigning a heavy or something, you can dodge backward during Conqueror's side dodge and if he commits to the bash he'll whiff right in front of you as side dodge shield bashes don't have nearly the forward momentum.


You clearly know what your talking about so if you have the time to read the original post I'd like your feedback.

I generally stick to commenting on Conqueror as that is what I'm most qualified to speak on.


Overall I wouldn't have mentioned conq, I don't see him too much even though I know his w/L is great. But recently I ran into one that clearly knew what they were doing, punished my mix with dash sb, and parried my openers. So I naturally thought if this is the extent that conq can be played in wtf lol. I couldn't open him up with anything. I was kensei.

He still has a fairly low pick rate which has always been the case. He was used kinda frequently after the rework for a short period of time but then it dropped off. I'm not too surprised though. Even I've been playing mostly Nuxia these past couple of weeks as she is a lot more enjoyable to play.

For Kensei, it's a tough matchup because Conqueror can get out of the top unblockable mixups easily with a zone option select, he can get a massive punish against Kensei's dodge attacks, and he's probably one of the best equipped to punish Kensei's pommel strike just for a few examples.

iadvisoryi
11-16-2018, 02:34 PM
Going into full block stance delays any follow up actions by 400ms whereas a standard feint has hardly any delay at all, so there's really no way they can't dodge in time. It's hard to notice this delay until you really compare to a standard feint or were a Conqueror main pre-rework. Literally the first thing I noticed when I first played the reworked Conqueror was the massive delay on the full block cancel.

There's nuance between the multiple versions of shield bash as far as branching into an attack during miss recovery goes. Shield bash mixup (shield bash after an attack) you can branch into a light early before the miss recovery ends (but it's also a slow 700ms version of the move) but no early branching into an attack exists for the regular dash into shield bash so there's the full 700ms miss recovery before you can throw that light.

Against a side dodge bash if you instigated one by feigning a heavy or something, you can dodge backward during Conqueror's side dodge and if he commits to the bash he'll whiff right in front of you as side dodge shield bashes don't have nearly the forward momentum.



I generally stick to commenting on Conqueror as that is what I'm most qualified to speak on.



He still has a fairly low pick rate which has always been the case. He was used kinda frequently after the rework for a short period of time but then it dropped off. I'm not too surprised though. Even I've been playing mostly Nuxia these past couple of weeks as she is a lot more enjoyable to play.

For Kensei, it's a tough matchup because Conqueror can get out of the top unblockable mixups easily with a zone option select, he can get a massive punish against Kensei's dodge attacks, and he's probably one of the best equipped to punish Kensei's pommel strike just for a few examples.

Yea gotcha. I appreciate the feedback. The conq-kensi matchup is probably something ridiculous like 7-3 or something. I'm my original post I have general ideas about the game and what the devs should be focusing on, wrote that before my buff/Nerf list. Mostly talking about small more frequent updates

RoyalAhole
11-16-2018, 03:11 PM
As I saw they're completely out of touch with the reality of the game...and 2019 is too late at least for me. Well I might install the game again in December 2019 when the balance update hits.

iadvisoryi
11-16-2018, 03:45 PM
As I saw they're completely out of touch with the reality of the game...and 2019 is too late at least for me. Well I might install the game again in December 2019 when the balance update hits.

I agree, I want to see consistent updates, they make sense. But waiting months on months for a big update just to have them break more things and then having to wait months more for those to get fixed like a endless cycle of bs. I'm hopeful but probably won't be consistently playing soon.

Blitzwarrior771
11-16-2018, 05:59 PM
i donít think they gonna fix anything with next update . There would be needed 4-5 updates to get close to some kind of balance . I donít have time to waste on game in progress . For that reason Iím out .

RoyalAhole
11-16-2018, 06:03 PM
I agree, I want to see consistent updates, they make sense. But waiting months on months for a big update just to have them break more things and then having to wait months more for those to get fixed like a endless cycle of bs. I'm hopeful but probably won't be consistently playing soon.

They had all the time in the world to fix the game with the expansion, they just choose not to.

UbiInsulin
11-16-2018, 08:28 PM
Just a note: when we ask for specifics, it's to make our feedback more nuanced. It's not an attempt to deflect or stall, it's us fleshing out feedback like "players think Conq's SB is OP" with potential adjustments to test (i.e. make it slower, or remove stamina damage when OOS, what have you).

We've been letting them know that you guys want more frequent updates and will continue to do so, but based on the game's past it appears that there are concerns with the ping-ponging effect this would create. The goal going forward is to be open and keep you all updated on the work that the team is actually doing on balance.

iadvisoryi
11-16-2018, 09:45 PM
Just a note: when we ask for specifics, it's to make our feedback more nuanced. It's not an attempt to deflect or stall, it's us fleshing out feedback like "players think Conq's SB is OP" with potential adjustments to test (i.e. make it slower, or remove stamina damage when OOS, what have you).

We've been letting them know that you guys want more frequent updates and will continue to do so, but based on the game's past it appears that there are concerns with the ping-ponging effect this would create. The goal going forward is to be open and keep you all updated on the work that the team is actually doing on balance.

I understand that, I believe our feedback is taken into consideration, but there is little real communication between us and the devs. What I was trying to say in my post, is that I personally don't see the acknowledgement of our buff/Nerf or mechanic change suggestions that they are possibly implementing. I'd love to see expected rough balance update time frames and time frames of when we could expect them to put out a balance patch that's not part of the big one.

It really sucks having to wait months for patches when there are small things that could be fixed with smaller effort. It also creates a fresh feeling to the game ever small noticible update. I hope to see the team come around to small consistent updates, it's worked for so many games, I'd be looking forward to it.

Thanks for viewing my post

MuscleTech12018
11-16-2018, 09:55 PM
I so laugh when you people actually beleive there is going to be a "massive balance update" =)) is it to easy to be a sucker nowadays ? they clearly told nothing basicaly, again :))

iadvisoryi
11-16-2018, 10:02 PM
I so laugh when you people actually beleive there is going to be a "massive balance update" =)) is it to easy to be a sucker nowadays ? they clearly told nothing basicaly, again :))

There always is a big balance update normally at the start or end of every season, it's not a belief when it's based off of how they've been running the game.

Blitzwarrior771
11-17-2018, 01:56 AM
Just a note: when we ask for specifics, it's to make our feedback more nuanced. It's not an attempt to deflect or stall, it's us fleshing out feedback like "players think Conq's SB is OP" with potential adjustments to test (i.e. make it slower, or remove stamina damage when OOS, what have you).

We've been letting them know that you guys want more frequent updates and will continue to do so, but based on the game's past it appears that there are concerns with the ping-ponging effect this would create. The goal going forward is to be open and keep you all updated on the work that the team is actually doing on balance.

This is why they need open test server for game like this is a must . Without it itís gonna take years to build perfect game .

UbiInsulin
11-17-2018, 08:14 PM
This is why they need open test server for game like this is a must . Without it it’s gonna take years to build perfect game .

I've been seeing more people mention using PTSs again, so I've made sure to mention that to the team.