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Knight_Raime
11-14-2018, 10:30 PM
Good afternoon all, I hope you're having a good day/night/morning. Today i'm going to be talking about two major points the communities division. Specifically what it is that we're divided on and why. I will also talk about what I believe to be the developers biggest failing (obviously my opinion and not fact.) And also potentially what can be done to aid both problems.

The great divide:


I think the best place to start here would be what caused the division as it will give context to what the divide is. In order to do this we have to travel back in time to the beginning days of For Honor. Back when people were not teching every guard break. Back when switching your attack direction was enough to throw someone's block game off, and parrying someone's move was considered very cool and praise worthy. Many players like to think of this time period (specifically season 1) to be the glory days of For Honor. The vocal majority of players were satisfied with the games balance. Sure there were a few problem moves or bugs but overall it seemed like the game was very sturdy and well built.

But then out of seemingly no where complaints started rising up in numbers. Warlords headbutt was broken, wardens shoulder bash was vortexing people into oblivion. And then the biggest complaint came out. "The game is not competitively viable." This statement was seemingly followed by a near endless list of every issue that could be found. If it existed it was probably listed. The game started receiving lots of bad press. And this continued from some time. But who were making these complaints? Back then It was a very small group of players. They were the few people who managed to play all of the open and closed tests and seemingly mastered the game not even a month into it's life span.

Thus the birth of competitive group was born and this is where the divide started. At first their requests seem small and reasonable. But the suggestions would become bigger and more game changing at time went on. And would be the catalyst for the change in direction for the game to foster a competitive atmosphere later down the line.


The fracture today:


So now that we know what started this we now need to examine how things are today because of this. In other words the aftermath of it all. The community as a whole has needed to endure several changes big or small that drastically changed how people approach the game. Change in itself isn't a bad thing, but when you can't have solid ground to stand on in order to start somewhere it makes a frustrating experience for everyone.

Now the community is very heavily divided between roughly two factions. You have casual players. This group covers a wide variety of people. From people who mainly play "player versus AI" to those that play often but do not care for statistics or meta. They just want to have a good time. Then you have the competitive crowd. This group of players covers two types of players. Those who do not participate in skrims or tournaments but very much care about the competitive scene and direction. Personal growth is their driving factor. And then you have the skrim/tournament players. The people who are practically guru's on the game and arguably know it better than the devs themselves. They want the game to be able to foster a healthy environment for all. Even if a lot of their suggestions come off as otherwise. They recognize the need for balancing around the top down.

This has created a mess overall for the devs. Both sides want a fun game for everyone. But both sides offer different suggestions to attain this goal. This is absolutely because of the different mindsets. But it's not the whole reason. Far from it. What else is causing it? Misinformation. This comes from all sorts of things. The game not having proper learning material. incorrect information gets spread about how things work. People's grasp on concepts as a whole. And simply correcting the false information/poor grasps on concepts isn't enough. But we will get to that eventually. Now we have to touch on the other problem...


The developers biggest failing:


The devs can be faulted for many things. Their general slow behavior both to responding to the community and changes for the game. Their seemingly very lacking open communication with the community. They seemingly ignore any help they actually requested from work shops where they invited people. Simply how poorly the game teaches players about itself...many things. But in my opinion the biggest problem the developers actually have is....Their perspective on the game.

The devs seem to have an entirely different view on the game. They say they want the game to be fun at a casual level while also having room for a competitive scene to grow. Sometimes they respond to complaints from either side. and sometimes they might even make a change that was wanted. But overall this is rarely ever consistent. A majority of the changes they make regardless of which side they are intended for seem to miss the mark. In other words the developers usually do a pretty poor job of appeasing either side of the community. Sometimes they make a stand on one thing but don't commit to it. The most recent being their stand on light spam followed up by nerfs to aramusha, a character known for light spamming.

Now it's true that it's impossible to please everyone and that no developer should try to. It's also true that not every change born by the community is the right change that needs to be made to address the perceived problem. However I think in this case it's very evident that even if the change from the community isn't the best choice, the devs are not making the right choice themselves. The most evident this can be seen with is whenever a hero receives number changes only. Or that's the biggest change they receive. To site a specific example we can look at Jiang Jun. He was reported to have no offense from the open test. The devs response to this was to speed up the soft feint attacks to 400ms and give him more damage.

The change to 400ms was an alright change. But it alone wasn't going to solve his issue. And we can see that. in a 1v1 Jiang Jun still has no way to actually be aggressive. His design in general seems to go back on their philosophies. As it was stated many many months ago that they wanted a hero to be viable in all game modes. But they clearly state that Jiang Jun was designed for 4v4. But I don't need to focus on this anymore than I already have. My point is however the devs view the game it's clearly not like how we view the game. And it's because of that that the fixes they put forth are not good enough. And it's because of this that the progress of the game becoming better overall is stalled and the community is at each others necks.


We can rebuild:


So now that we've talked about the issues it's time to fix them. It's important to understand that the casual and competitive groups will never feel the same way about everything. But it is entirely possible for both crowds to have an enjoyable experience with the game. How do we get there? First thing is first. We need to have a summit. Meaning the developers need to hand pick people from the community from all corners of the game. People who play just for the atmosphere. People who play because they are a history buff on any of the factions. People who play this game maybe once a week. People who understand the mechanics of the game. etc. They need to get everyone.

They then need to talk to all of these people at the summit. They need to be painfully transparent on what the devs think the issues are and how they see things. They then need to accept and really listen to the responses from the people they picked about that. And then they need to ask the individuals their problems with the game. And the devs need to put aside any response they might have to that and really just chew on it. This whole process should take a couple of days. A day or two for open discussion and then a day or so for some rough ideas to be sketched up.

The devs would take those rough ideas and then give some suggestions on how those things could be added into the game. They would then need to take those ideas back to the group of players and explain in detail what their ideas are and how they would work. If the group is majorally in favor for those changes then the devs can get down to work. If not then the devs need to go back and try again and then bring the ideas back. Repeat that process till the group is happy with the ideas going forward.

Why do all of that? Simply put it gets the community and the devs on the same page. Grabbing a variety of players assures everyone is being represented and heard. And everyone being open and honest will help clarify perspectives and hopefully get the developers to really understand the communities perspectives and plights.

Next would be test servers. And these servers would not only be around to field test these community approved changes but they would stick around so any other future changes that were to be made could be tested first. Rather than shoved through every few months and being forced to stick with whatever outcome said changes create. Good or bad.

Probably even more important than that would be the devs updating and overhauling the games teaching tools. The basic and advanced videos should be scrapped entirely As hero tactics more or less covers that to some degree. Instead the videos would be replaced with duel tactics and team/gank tactics. Where chosen members of the community (voted on by the community) would write or insert their guides into there in video format.

Hero training mode needs to be overhauled entirely. It's fine as is for teaching the game controls. But it also needs to teach in depth aspects. Like hit stun (both locked and unlocked) Like guard break vulnerabilities based on different attack speeds. Like delaying moves and what that does. etc. Basically all the info the game does not currently give you but is found in the community side bar for the competitive reddit. Hero tactics and what it is can be placed inside training mode. Instead hero tactics can focus on match ups. Giving information on who you're playing vs who you're playing against. And training mode needs to expand. You need to be able to tell the bot exactly what to do. This means which side to guard from. Specific combo strings that you build. etc. You also should be able to spawn/have a third player so external situations can be more easily tested/practiced against. etc.

operation health. For those who don't know what i'm referring to i'm talking about a period of time in rainbow six siege's life span that spent a significant time making fixes for the game. Both small and big. No new content in this period. For honor needs this. To be safe it should probably be at least half a year long. Maybe 8 months. And in this time frame the devs need to be 100% open. Talking with us almost daily about what's being done and the progress of what's being done. The devs need to be willing to change anything no matter how big. As an example if it's been decided that how guarding works is a big change by the community the devs need to do so. And put it on the test servers to see if it's what people want. and see how it plays out. If the community agrees that a rework needs to happen then the devs need to be willing to let go of the current kit almost if not entirely. etc.

And finally in general the devs need to be more in touch with us. Weekly dens need to be about the state of the game. They need to address common topics. They need to tell us what we can look forward to both in the near and the far future. There is nothing wrong with having more relaxed dens when there isn't much to add on to what has already been discussed. and having the silly streams is a nice thing to have on occasion. But the primary focus of the warriors den is for the devs to be open with us and tell us what's going on. It's for us to know we're being heard.

I think that about covers it. I'd like to thank everyone who voted in my poll and also thank everyone who manages to read all of this. I had fun writing about it. Until next time~

DefiledDragon
11-15-2018, 12:07 AM
I like the idea of a player/designer summit where community reps from all corners can put their ideas forward and thrash it out with the designers and agree on a direction for the game. I'm interested to see what a Ubisoft representative makes of your suggestion.

Knight_Raime
11-15-2018, 12:35 AM
I like the idea of a player/designer summit where community reps from all corners can put their ideas forward and thrash it out with the designers and agree on a direction for the game. I'm interested to see what a Ubisoft representative makes of your suggestion.

Bungie did a similar thing before forsaken expansion dropped and it ended up helping the game become a lot better.

Turk-Adam
11-15-2018, 12:39 AM
This is an awesome write up and I agree but it will never happen. In order for something like this to happen the devs would need to swallow a lot of pride.

Tatsu147146
11-15-2018, 12:46 AM
I just wish they'd overhaul all the move sets and rework every last character to have real martial arts combat from real manuscripts and fighting techniques instead of whipping up some ridiculous cinematic fighting styles that make no sense in real life or in game and screw everyone over. Wishful thinking I guess.

Czarnone
11-15-2018, 01:19 AM
Nice writeup.

DoctorMcBatman
11-15-2018, 03:11 AM
Good write up, but I want to add: the nightmarish connectivity issues were a major reason for the game's bad press early on. Dedicated severs fixed it pretty much, but those first 5-6 months without them, were hellish.

Thanks for mentioning this:


But it also needs to teach in depth aspects. Like hit stun (both locked and unlocked) Like guard break vulnerabilities based on different attack speeds. Like delaying moves and what that does. etc. Basically all the info the game does not currently give you but is found in the community side bar for the competitive reddit.

I felt very helpless about understanding the game's deep mechanics in the few months after release (and honestly, I would still say I have an intermediate at best understanding of these deeper mechanics, after 500 hours of play...). I actually wasn't a reddit user, but became one just to go to the comp sub to ask questions about these mechanics/view the figures.

Totally agree re: Operation Health. The community would literally be thrilled to hear "no new content for X months and only reworks, tests, nerfs, buffs, etc.."

I didn't play RS, so my question would be how are microtransactions integrated in that game? Clearly there is a big emphasis in FH, so I wonder how much no new content for X months would hurt revenue? Not saying it's a great reason to not do it, just trying to think it through holistically and what to expect.

I like the summit idea, but I think you're underestimating the needed time/effort involved for it to happen correctly. It would be a lot of work to plan and manage.

Also, don't forget we have "Year of the Harbinger" on the horizon, whatever that means. So they're already working on something seemingly big, that is new content. :/

MarshalMoriarty
11-15-2018, 03:20 AM
So... the fact they released a game which crashed constantly and left people waiting for matches to resynchronise for a YEAR doesn't count as their biggest failing? Something which made the game a laughingstock and an obvious reason for people's resentment that Ubi 'just didn't care' to grow and fester? Or the fact that they routinely release characters with utterly broken mechanics that they then leave in place indefinately?

I agree that the game is dreadful at explaining itself, but most of the serious problems a new player encounters are things the game cannot teach you. Ganking, light spamming, broken characters, connection lag are things the game obviously would not want to draw attention to. The only solution to that is a better made game and better creative decisions on how game modes work and reward you. Ubi simply need to make their game work properly, understand that people who aren't having fun are likely not going to stay, and that people will only engage properly if they feel that both demands but also rewards effort.

And I repeat my scepticism on the community having any kind of active role in how the game is made. Consensus is a hard thing to quantify, as this forum can readily attest. Going to the gamers would result in a cacophony of dissent (given the 'git gud' mentality of many self proclaimed pros for example versus the implacable 'Get rid of light spam and 400ms or we walk' extremes). And this would be moreso because the community would have new targets to blame and argue that 'these people don't speak for us'. Ubi are the ones with the responsibility to hear concerns and make change. They either can do it right and the game suceeds or they can't and the game fails. Its as simple as that.

DefiledDragon
11-15-2018, 03:36 AM
And I repeat my scepticism on the community having any kind of active role in how the game is made. Consensus is a hard thing to quantify, as this forum can readily attest. Going to the gamers would result in a cacophony of dissent (given the 'git gud' mentality of many self proclaimed pros for example versus the implacable 'Get rid of light spam and 400ms or we walk' extremes). And this would be moreso because the community would have new targets to blame and argue that 'these people don't speak for us'. Ubi are the ones with the responsibility to hear concerns and make change. They either can do it right and the game suceeds or they can't and the game fails. Its as simple as that.

You're probably correct in what you say about the players who represent the community at large will become targets for "blame", but I'm pretty sure that there are players out there who would happily shoulder that responsibility in the belief that it would improve the game at all levels of play. A belief which I, for one, share.

MarshalMoriarty
11-15-2018, 03:46 AM
But them wanting such a role is not the same as carrying the needed level of respect to have any kind of acceptance for their proposals. Pro gamers will push an agenda that makes life hell for the average gamer. More relaxed gamers will anger the pros by offering changes that wouldn't be necessary if they just 'git gud' and moderates would please neither side.

Knight_Raime
11-15-2018, 05:13 AM
This is an awesome write up and I agree but it will never happen. In order for something like this to happen the devs would need to swallow a lot of pride.

It's something they might consider if the game ever takes a nose dive. That's really the only reason why Bungie actually did it. Their game was dying and this was their attempt at bringing people back. Marching fire was a success. So unless the game takes a big hit I don't think we'd realistically see this anytime soon.

Knight_Raime
11-15-2018, 05:19 AM
Good write up, but I want to add: the nightmarish connectivity issues were a major reason for the game's bad press early on. Dedicated severs fixed it pretty much, but those first 5-6 months without them, were hellish.

Thanks for mentioning this:


I felt very helpless about understanding the game's deep mechanics in the few months after release (and honestly, I would still say I have an intermediate at best understanding of these deeper mechanics, after 500 hours of play...). I actually wasn't a reddit user, but became one just to go to the comp sub to ask questions about these mechanics/view the figures.

Totally agree re: Operation Health. The community would literally be thrilled to hear "no new content for X months and only reworks, tests, nerfs, buffs, etc.."

I didn't play RS, so my question would be how are microtransactions integrated in that game? Clearly there is a big emphasis in FH, so I wonder how much no new content for X months would hurt revenue? Not saying it's a great reason to not do it, just trying to think it through holistically and what to expect.

I like the summit idea, but I think you're underestimating the needed time/effort involved for it to happen correctly. It would be a lot of work to plan and manage.

Also, don't forget we have "Year of the Harbinger" on the horizon, whatever that means. So they're already working on something seemingly big, that is new content. :/

Oh yeah. I almost forgot about that honestly. Everytime someone quit a 4v4 match you ran the risk of the match crashing for everyone. I personally didn't deal with that too often because I mainly only dueled for the entire life span of this game till marching fire.

I don't play R6. I played it when it launched and for a few months after. but I really only played terrorist hunt. MP looked good I just wasn't looking for a sweaty fps experience. Anyway I forgot how they were exactly at launch. But I do know that it's similar to for honor. Where completing matches earns you in game currency to direct buy cosmetics. They also have loot boxes now. Which can be earned just from playing. But R6 also has it's own premium currency. Which can't be earned in game and some items can only be bought with the premium currency. Not sure if you can buy the loot boxes with in game currency or not.

Bungie's summit thing might have been a week long. I don't recall. All I know is that it wasn't very long. And yeah i'm aware of the harbinger. We probably will get new content. But wether that's new maps/modes or new heros who can say right now.

Knight_Raime
11-15-2018, 05:25 AM
So... the fact they released a game which crashed constantly and left people waiting for matches to resynchronise for a YEAR doesn't count as their biggest failing? Something which made the game a laughingstock and an obvious reason for people's resentment that Ubi 'just didn't care' to grow and fester? Or the fact that they routinely release characters with utterly broken mechanics that they then leave in place indefinately?

I agree that the game is dreadful at explaining itself, but most of the serious problems a new player encounters are things the game cannot teach you. Ganking, light spamming, broken characters, connection lag are things the game obviously would not want to draw attention to. The only solution to that is a better made game and better creative decisions on how game modes work and reward you. Ubi simply need to make their game work properly, understand that people who aren't having fun are likely not going to stay, and that people will only engage properly if they feel that both demands but also rewards effort.

And I repeat my scepticism on the community having any kind of active role in how the game is made. Consensus is a hard thing to quantify, as this forum can readily attest. Going to the gamers would result in a cacophony of dissent (given the 'git gud' mentality of many self proclaimed pros for example versus the implacable 'Get rid of light spam and 400ms or we walk' extremes). And this would be moreso because the community would have new targets to blame and argue that 'these people don't speak for us'. Ubi are the ones with the responsibility to hear concerns and make change. They either can do it right and the game suceeds or they can't and the game fails. Its as simple as that.

All the things you listed (more or less) are indeed problems. But imo their perspective is the biggest problem because that effects literally everything including the future of the game. If the devs are never on the same page as the rest of us then nothing productive can ever really be done in the long term. I can list several things that the community had a role in. Parries no longer giving guard breaks. Revenge being turned off in duels. unlock tech being found and patched. kensei's pommel strike. Berzerker getting unblockable finishers. orochi getting a multi directional storm rush. Warden getting a chase down move. unlock into roll being fixed. etc. The devs do absolutely listen and sometimes they do take direct suggestions. The issue is they don't do either of those things enough and often.

Consensus is absolutely achievable. the destiny 2 community was just as divided as this one and the summit was a success.

MarshalMoriarty
11-15-2018, 05:28 AM
Marching Fire had 4 new characters in a game that hadn't had any in a year. Short of it causing your house to explode when booted up, it was as close to a sure thing as you're going to get. As to whether its content is receiving approval, that's a horse of a different colour.

Woeful Arcade mode that isn't worth the money, falling numbers on Breach due to how dreadfully explained, simplistic and mismatched it is, ongoing irritation at the Wu lin and their spammy styles, MM and Guard issues worse than before, slap in the face 'compensation' for 2 years of lost progress, balance now so skewed that half the roster may as well not exist, dreadful implementation and execution of the Perks system...

Standards are low indeed if this is being termed a success.

MarshalMoriarty
11-15-2018, 05:36 AM
Consensus will never be reached. You saw the reaction after their comments on light spam and you yourself continue to insist its no problem. Yet this forum proves day in and day out that it *is* a dealbreaker for countless frustrated gamers. If we can't agree on something as fundamental as that, this excerise falls at the first hurdle.

Tundra 793
11-15-2018, 05:41 AM
It's something they might consider if the game ever takes a nose dive. That's really the only reason why Bungie actually did it. Their game was dying and this was their attempt at bringing people back. Marching fire was a success. So unless the game takes a big hit I don't think we'd realistically see this anytime soon.

It was bound to happen eventually, but I agree with you Raime. Solid write up, thank you taking the time to speak up about it.

Thing is, I can't imagine For Honor nose diving hard enough to prompt Roman or Damien to buckle up, and get down and dirty with their players, to make the game the best it can be. For Honor rides a monopoly of this particular niche, and nothing's coming anytime soon to challenge it. They have basically had carte blanche since day 1 to go nuts with what they have, especially after Jason left.

Your post touches largely on things concerning the game mechanics and such, but I'd also like to point out that there's many divisions about the art style, and attention to story and lore that's been discussed countless times in the community, with little to no care given by the developers.

Knight_Raime
11-15-2018, 05:51 AM
It was bound to happen eventually, but I agree with you Raime. Solid write up, thank you taking the time to speak up about it.

Thing is, I can't imagine For Honor nose diving hard enough to prompt Roman or Damien to buckle up, and get down and dirty with their players, to make the game the best it can be. For Honor rides a monopoly of this particular niche, and nothing's coming anytime soon to challenge it. They have basically had carte blanche since day 1 to go nuts with what they have, especially after Jason left.

Your post touches largely on things concerning the game mechanics and such, but I'd also like to point out that there's many divisions about the art style, and attention to story and lore that's been discussed countless times in the community, with little to no care given by the developers.

No problem. Sometimes I just enjoy running my mouth. So these write ups can be fun, especially if it's something people want to hear about. But yeah sadly I can't see the dive happening either. Unless the next batch of heros become "more op than marching fire heros" /s. I haven't actually looked into anything like that tbh. The only stuff I was aware about that wasn't just gameplay related was historical stuff/actual fighting since I know a little of both and have commented in threads about such before.

Do you happen to have any links to these complaints? I would love to pour over them and gain more perspective on people's feelings for the game. But in all honesty I think FH won't actually die out or anything like that. Nothing else currently offers anything like for honor. So that means they pretty much get to do whatever they want and not do things they don't want to do. Because no one can steal their competition. It's sad. But that's just how the world works.

Tundra 793
11-15-2018, 06:03 AM
Do you happen to have any links to these complaints?

Not at the moment no. I was gone for a good long while, so I haven't kept track of those type of threads for most of the year, but remember them from a while back. Thing is, most of the people who put up the suggestions and discussions about it are long gone. The game, and developers have driven away some of their finest community members, sadly.

Knight_Raime
11-15-2018, 06:25 AM
Not at the moment no. I was gone for a good long while, so I haven't kept track of those type of threads for most of the year, but remember them from a while back. Thing is, most of the people who put up the suggestions and discussions about it are long gone. The game, and developers have driven away some of their finest community members, sadly.

Oh that's a shame. I know Andro-vax did his whole time line thing. I still see him on for honor on occasion but I haven't spoken to the fellow in quite awhile.

Tundra 793
11-15-2018, 06:30 AM
Oh that's a shame. I know Andro-vax did his whole time line thing. I still see him on for honor on occasion but I haven't spoken to the fellow in quite awhile.

Archo-Vax, don't let him catch ya makin' that mistake.

Dude put in weeks of his free time to make that thread, and despite being popular and interesting, it's still full of spam. Really a shame. That thread was also the only time I've ever seen Pope post on here.

Knight_Raime
11-15-2018, 07:08 AM
Archo-Vax, don't let him catch ya makin' that mistake.

Dude put in weeks of his free time to make that thread, and despite being popular and interesting, it's still full of spam. Really a shame. That thread was also the only time I've ever seen Pope post on here.

Oof. Yeah it is. I make mistakes like that a lot.
and oh? I haven't popped my head in there in ages.

Tundra 793
11-15-2018, 07:12 AM
Oof. Yeah it is. I make mistakes like that a lot.
and oh? I haven't popped my head in there in ages.

No worries, your secret's safe with me.
I look in there from time to time, it's a great thread. But as is par the course with this place, spam gets around. I reported a post like last week, posted a week before that. Still nothing. Vakris also posted, but still nothing.
I could PM one of the Ubi community folk, but I kinda feel like stuff like this ought to be handled by moderators, and the Ubi guys are busy enough. But they won't appoint any new mods from our ranks for some reason, so the spam lingers.

Knight_Raime
11-15-2018, 07:24 AM
No worries, your secret's safe with me.
I look in there from time to time, it's a great thread. But as is par the course with this place, spam gets around. I reported a post like last week, posted a week before that. Still nothing. Vakris also posted, but still nothing.
I could PM one of the Ubi community folk, but I kinda feel like stuff like this ought to be handled by moderators, and the Ubi guys are busy enough. But they won't appoint any new mods from our ranks for some reason, so the spam lingers.

hopefully it gets fixed. Would be a shame to see such effort get drowned out and forgotten.

ChampionRuby50g
11-15-2018, 07:29 AM
I donít believe you touched on this in your main post Raime, which by the way was a great read, you did a good job of picking apart and analysing the issues, but seeing something Tundra just wrote made me think of this.

Pope has only posted on this forum once, that Iíve seen. Heís the community manager isnít he? Correct me if Iím wrong, but I find it to be absolutely shameful that a community manager of Ubisoft refuses to even go on his own companyís official forum and read all the amazing ideas that have been put forth. Itís almost like us forum dwellers are nothing to the main team. Pope has mentioned when making statements to the community things along the line of ďwe thank reddit for this, reddit is the backbone of the community, hop onto reddit to see this and give feedback to us on reddit.Ē Iím sure thereís times when he and the other main developers have mentioned us, but theyíre incredibly rare. We are their OFFICAL forum for Peteís sake. To have only one account of a community manager/ developer coming on here and responding to us is so, so disappointing.

This has got to be another reason why there is such a divide in the community and development team. They need to step up here. We are giving them so much, but they are giving us nothing in return. It leaves us feeling bitter and left out, like they donít care.

Either way, Iím done with the game now, at least until some drastic changes are made. Mostly for me faster balance updates, more transparency, an apology for the behaviour the dev team have had to us in the past. (Roman telling LB mains to learn how to play their class comes to mind). Itís been a fun 2 years, really. But Iím burnt out. We donít deserve to be treated this way, the core part of the community is often on the forums, and so much of that core has dissapeared, and many, many more are leaving. I wouldnít also say MF was a success, if so only minor. I know the angry posts draw more attention, but I can only think of 2-3 posts in which people have praised marching fire. Thereís probably more, but from what Iíve gathered on YouTube videos a lot of the community is feeling the same way. Content creators are giving up, and comments saying theyíve left due to MF and the poor execution of it have been getting hundreds of likes. To me, it looks like MF was a fail.

Tundra 793
11-15-2018, 07:38 AM
Champion's got a good point. Reddit, for reasons quite beyond me, has always been favored over the forums, twitter and Steam communities. No one wants to admit it, but it's quite plain to see, and it's really heartbreaking considering the work I've seen countless forum members put into this community. The fact that Candle doesn't have a killer level 3 heroic bot named after him at this point, makes me want to weep for 100 years.

It's not that Reddit doesn't put effort into their part of the community, they do, but Reddit is 90% memes and 10% discussion. The forums are 90% discussion and 10% memes, 9% of which are Vakris'.
I know first hand the effort our forum Warrior's Den recaps take, compared to the Reddit one, and I only did it incredibly briefly. Candle's persistence, consistence and professionalism about his recaps is admirable, and he is in my opinion, the finest member of the entire For Honor community. If I could somehow muster the enthusiasm for this game I once could, I'd gladly relieve him again, and let him take a well earned rest.

The community is fractured, as are the developers. Both in terms of communication, goals and visions about For Honor, and how it should be and could be.

Ubi-Jimothy
11-15-2018, 11:28 AM
Hey folks,

First of all, thank you OP for the great write-up, we'll definitely be taking a proper read over it!

Just wanted to chime in on the whole 'No Community Managers on the Forums' topic, as there seems to be some confusion here. Mr Pope is our community developer, myself and FredEx are Community Managers, not Moderators. Although we may not always have the time to directly respond to a lot of threads on a daily basis, we're always here reading what you guys are posting, so feel free to reach out to us if need be!

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
11-15-2018, 01:16 PM
I'm just going to state something people probably already know but may have forgotten.
For honor was praised upon its release for being a slow methodical reenactment of battle in a 3D environment to which it was called refreshing to the fighting genre. Playing mind games over lightning fast 20 combo attacks.
The direction For Honor is going is no longer as rewarding to play. Beating average players with light spam is not as rewarding as out thinking you're opponent for many who enjoyed the game yesteryear. The turtle meta was for many seasons the best/safest strategy for out whiting your opponent and the mechanics favored turtling.
Today the mechanics have tilted to a mash of buttons that tests your opponents reflexes and not your own ability to out think your opponent which, again, is disappointing to some. I am of the opinion that the lack of psychological reward and the added stress of defending against an unreactable onslaught of spam/cheese of all types in order to break everyone's need to turtle has caused people to go from frustrated at trying to break a good turtle during the turtle meta to stressed out over attempting to turtle in a meta that is being designed to bombard that kind of behavior especially in gank situations. This, as a whole, makes the game less fun. The reward system has been taken away. The refreshing aspect of For Honor releasing endorphin on a deserved kill has been replaced by higher stress levels of trying to out reflexively react to your attacking opponents spams. People who find killing through spams rewarding still enjoy the game provided they can handle the stress of onslaughts. More over execution cut scenes have been diminished and progression through gear stats which, again, has reduced the "refreshing" aspect of for honor. All just an opinion/hypothesis I have no real testing.
The end result is that those who need little reward or are rewarded through spams and can manage high stress encounters still enjoy the game which is great. Those that can't handle little reward coupled with high stress find the game lacking so they do a number of things to compensate such as play bots, quit, or trudge on with hope that things will change for the better.
Aside from mechanics the fundamental identity of for honor had changed from a thinking man's (or women's...I can be respectful) game to a game of reflexes, higher stress, and less reward. At least that is my hypothesis and your welcome to disagree with it. In short for some For Honor had lost its soul.
Cheers.
I play 4v4 only on console.

The_B0G_
11-15-2018, 02:14 PM
Who cares if Pope comes on here anyway, he's a glorified teleprompter, he doesn't make important game decisions. He reads what they write down for him.

As far as your write up goes Raime, I agree with most of it, but I also think it's unlikely any of it will be done.

Getting players together that represent people with differents interests in game like you've proposed, I've seen done for another game with a similar company, EA's Nhl series. They called them "Gamechangers" and would fly them into the studio to get their opinion on the game, most of the gamechangers quickly turned into EA's "yes men" because they felt special and didn't want to lose it, and the ones who didn't, weren't allowed to talk about anything because of NDA's.

Nhl is still brutal and the forums got so toxic the mods started editing almost every thread and reply posted, banning people left and right until all the unhappy people were gone, I got banned after being a member for 4 years because I called out an EA fan boy too many times (he hadn't played the game for 5 years and was telling everyone it was them and not the game).

I don't think a similar gamechanger group would work here either, but I do think we should have a game health period of a few months to only balance and get the game back to being fun, I personally still don't like the route they are going, with super fast attacks being jammed into everyones moved list, so hopefully that is something they would address with a few months to work on only gameplay issues and balance.


It's kind of feeling hopeless for me and others like me who find the new spam meta less fun than the turtle meta though. I can't see them slowing down any characters, and it's more likely LB, Shugo and WL will be getting some form of unreactable attacks upon their rework, because without it they will be exactly where they are now. I'm being a pessimist but I don't have much hope that this game will get better for me personally.

SpaceJim12
11-15-2018, 05:01 PM
Really intresting reading, Raime, thank you.

Well, literally you offer players to be gamedesigners for the game. It's cool, when team did a great job, but lose some main aspects and expired with ideas. But, unfortunatly, For Honor gamedesigners are bad. The whole problem with the game came from poor gamedesigning. Forsaken is a good example. Yes, it changed Destiny 2 completely. But all changes with content, how it appear and what endgame should be. The gameplay core of D2 stayed the same. D2 were very fun and epic shooter and it didn't cahnge with Forsaken.
For Honor have bad core gameplay mechanic. Yes, concept are very cool and intresting, art and animations are impressive, but gameplay was broken. And after almost two years devs still can't do something with it. They try, yes, but nothing changed in general. Gamedesign holes everywhere. Monetiztion, gamemodes, battle system, progression system, replayability. In every aspect of the gamedesign For Honor have a huge problems. And I can't see how devs suppose to fix this.
You said that there are competitve persons and casual players. Other games somehow easily solve this problem. Compete players play ranked or competitive modes. But in For Honor there are no real reason to play this.
Let's take Breach, for example. I really like this gamemode, but when I compared it with Dominion. If we look at Breach in general, it's full of gamedesign holes. I hope devs will fix at all. But...Dominion still in the same state it was a year ago. After all feedback, all change threads and all negatives about Dominion devs do nothing with it. And I really afraid, that Breach will share this fate.
I really cared about everything, that happend with For Honor. But after all we saw and all happend with the game and all ignored feedback from players, I gave up on it. I still try to have fun, still play the game. But I really doubt devs will do anything like "Forsaken" for Destiny 2 or "Operation health" for R6 Siege. For Honor have so many opportunities in game-as-service, in customization, gameplay etc. But all of them lost now in my opinion. So pity...

Tundra 793
11-15-2018, 06:18 PM
Just wanted to chime in on the whole 'No Community Managers on the Forums' topic, as there seems to be some confusion here. Mr Pope is our community developer, myself and FredEx are Community Managers, not Moderators. Although we may not always have the time to directly respond to a lot of threads on a daily basis, we're always here reading what you guys are posting, so feel free to reach out to us if need be!

Thanks for chiming in Jim. But what our point was, for me at least, isn't that you guys don't read our stuff, we know you do and everyone here really appreciates you guys. It's that Pope is the most visible developer for the community, being in front of the camera every week, and he clearly favors Reddit over the forums. Granted I've missed most of the Dens this year, but last year I can remember maybe 2-3 times he mentioned the forums, specifically Archo's lore thread, a shoutout to Candle and when I introduced the Q&A part to the Den recaps before that faded away.

But he's always very engaging with Reddit, frequently mentioning the memes and jokes people make there, he personally posts there and delivers the weekly Den info dump himself, something Candle has to get on his own for the recaps here.

I know y'all have sort of teams in place, so every community gets covered (Steam, forums, Reddit etc.) but it's kind of sad for us when only one part of the community seems to get any attention regularly in the most public outlet, the Den.

DoctorMcBatman
11-15-2018, 06:43 PM
Reddit tends to be the friendliest to the dev team, so its unsurprising Pope favors it. Also, Ubi's forums sort of suck. They're bloated, take long loading times (compared to reddit or other forums), are filled with spam, and are not intuitive to use. I don't blame him for wanting to avoid it.

Not like the team follows player feedback anyway, regardless of Pope/reddit, Ubi forums, or the actual players they invite to the studio.

ChampionRuby50g
11-15-2018, 08:22 PM
Not our fault itís filled with spam though. Imagine avoiding your own companyís official forum because of the spam issue and doing nothing to fix the spam issue... great look for the the company.

Knight_Raime
11-15-2018, 10:53 PM
I donít believe you touched on this in your main post Raime, which by the way was a great read, you did a good job of picking apart and analysing the issues, but seeing something Tundra just wrote made me think of this.

Pope has only posted on this forum once, that Iíve seen. Heís the community manager isnít he? Correct me if Iím wrong, but I find it to be absolutely shameful that a community manager of Ubisoft refuses to even go on his own companyís official forum and read all the amazing ideas that have been put forth. Itís almost like us forum dwellers are nothing to the main team. Pope has mentioned when making statements to the community things along the line of ďwe thank reddit for this, reddit is the backbone of the community, hop onto reddit to see this and give feedback to us on reddit.Ē Iím sure thereís times when he and the other main developers have mentioned us, but theyíre incredibly rare. We are their OFFICAL forum for Peteís sake. To have only one account of a community manager/ developer coming on here and responding to us is so, so disappointing.

This has got to be another reason why there is such a divide in the community and development team. They need to step up here. We are giving them so much, but they are giving us nothing in return. It leaves us feeling bitter and left out, like they donít care.

Either way, Iím done with the game now, at least until some drastic changes are made. Mostly for me faster balance updates, more transparency, an apology for the behaviour the dev team have had to us in the past. (Roman telling LB mains to learn how to play their class comes to mind). Itís been a fun 2 years, really. But Iím burnt out. We donít deserve to be treated this way, the core part of the community is often on the forums, and so much of that core has dissapeared, and many, many more are leaving. I wouldnít also say MF was a success, if so only minor. I know the angry posts draw more attention, but I can only think of 2-3 posts in which people have praised marching fire. Thereís probably more, but from what Iíve gathered on YouTube videos a lot of the community is feeling the same way. Content creators are giving up, and comments saying theyíve left due to MF and the poor execution of it have been getting hundreds of likes. To me, it looks like MF was a fail.


Champion's got a good point. Reddit, for reasons quite beyond me, has always been favored over the forums, twitter and Steam communities. No one wants to admit it, but it's quite plain to see, and it's really heartbreaking considering the work I've seen countless forum members put into this community. The fact that Candle doesn't have a killer level 3 heroic bot named after him at this point, makes me want to weep for 100 years.

It's not that Reddit doesn't put effort into their part of the community, they do, but Reddit is 90% memes and 10% discussion. The forums are 90% discussion and 10% memes, 9% of which are Vakris'.
I know first hand the effort our forum Warrior's Den recaps take, compared to the Reddit one, and I only did it incredibly briefly. Candle's persistence, consistence and professionalism about his recaps is admirable, and he is in my opinion, the finest member of the entire For Honor community. If I could somehow muster the enthusiasm for this game I once could, I'd gladly relieve him again, and let him take a well earned rest.

The community is fractured, as are the developers. Both in terms of communication, goals and visions about For Honor, and how it should be and could be.

I didn't bring this up because it's a fairly common practice. At least for the games i'm involved with. I believe they go to...i'll call them sub forums, because it's far easier to deal with smaller and more focused/targeted groups of people/responses. Where as the main forums are often very flooded and lots of things get drowned out or not articulated properly.

Knight_Raime
11-15-2018, 10:56 PM
Hey folks,

First of all, thank you OP for the great write-up, we'll definitely be taking a proper read over it!

Just wanted to chime in on the whole 'No Community Managers on the Forums' topic, as there seems to be some confusion here. Mr Pope is our community developer, myself and FredEx are Community Managers, not Moderators. Although we may not always have the time to directly respond to a lot of threads on a daily basis, we're always here reading what you guys are posting, so feel free to reach out to us if need be!


This is interesting to know. I always thought pope was the "community punching bag" for lack of a better phrase. Didn't know he was actually a developer.


Who cares if Pope comes on here anyway, he's a glorified teleprompter, he doesn't make important game decisions. He reads what they write down for him.

As far as your write up goes Raime, I agree with most of it, but I also think it's unlikely any of it will be done.

Getting players together that represent people with differents interests in game like you've proposed, I've seen done for another game with a similar company, EA's Nhl series. They called them "Gamechangers" and would fly them into the studio to get their opinion on the game, most of the gamechangers quickly turned into EA's "yes men" because they felt special and didn't want to lose it, and the ones who didn't, weren't allowed to talk about anything because of NDA's.

Nhl is still brutal and the forums got so toxic the mods started editing almost every thread and reply posted, banning people left and right until all the unhappy people were gone, I got banned after being a member for 4 years because I called out an EA fan boy too many times (he hadn't played the game for 5 years and was telling everyone it was them and not the game).

I don't think a similar gamechanger group would work here either, but I do think we should have a game health period of a few months to only balance and get the game back to being fun, I personally still don't like the route they are going, with super fast attacks being jammed into everyones moved list, so hopefully that is something they would address with a few months to work on only gameplay issues and balance.


It's kind of feeling hopeless for me and others like me who find the new spam meta less fun than the turtle meta though. I can't see them slowing down any characters, and it's more likely LB, Shugo and WL will be getting some form of unreactable attacks upon their rework, because without it they will be exactly where they are now. I'm being a pessimist but I don't have much hope that this game will get better for me personally.

That is a possibility yes. But because it worked with destiny (and they're headed by activision of all companies) I think it's possible that it could work for For Honor.

DoctorMcBatman
11-15-2018, 11:48 PM
What does Community Developer mean?

He's not actually a programmer right? My understanding was he is essentially a community manager, but solely dedicated to FH for the duration of its life. Whereas the community managers here seem to mostly be forum mods (I've seen a few of the mods here on reddit/Steam too) who shuffle in and out.

DefiledDragon
11-15-2018, 11:58 PM
What does Community Developer mean?

He's not actually a programmer right? My understanding was he is essentially a community manager, but solely dedicated to FH for the duration of its life. Whereas the community managers here seem to mostly be forum mods (I've seen a few of the mods here on reddit/Steam too) who shuffle in and out.

Maybe he works on the website(s)?

Devils-_-legacy
11-16-2018, 12:16 AM
What does Community Developer mean?

He's not actually a programmer right? My understanding was he is essentially a community manager, but solely dedicated to FH for the duration of its life. Whereas the community managers here seem to mostly be forum mods (I've seen a few of the mods here on reddit/Steam too) who shuffle in and out.

This was from ubisoft careers a few years ago
Job Description: Community Developer
This person is responsible to provide a strong connection between the gaming community and the development team, managing key aspects of communication, asset development and working to expand the game experience. He/she will also work with multiple departments worldwide such as Business Teams, and Development teams. He/she will be integrated within Development teams, directly in the Production Studio, to work hand in hand on the editorial strategy and community assets creation.