View Full Version : Shaolin, a needed tweak.

11-14-2018, 12:16 AM
So a lot of people have called for a Shaolin nerf. I disagree. I don't think he needs a nerf, but there are somethings that are frustratingly inconsistent about some of his attacks and dodges that has been pissing me off lately, and they need to be changed because they break other characters mechanics.

So this isn't a NERF thread. this is a Please tweak this thread.

*Background info for how I came to these conclusions:
So I play the weekly arcade quests. I've beaten the halloween shaman quest with Aramusha, Orochi, and Shinobi. The three virupaksas I've beaten with Aramusha and Shinobi(mostly abusing ledging) so far, but after hours attempting it with the orochi I cant beat it. during that time I saw these mechanics occur multiple times and it's awful.

Orochi VS Shaolin (BUGS in my opinion)

-The Orochi's lightning strike and Zephyr slash both TECHNICALLY have the undodgeable property. Multiple times I've witnessed the Shaolin dodge backwards or to the side and still successfully evade the attacks. Meanwhile the shaolins undodgeable attacks connect sometimes even if you double dodge for a roll backwards MID ROLL. That's just some BS. Either the shaolins side dodge heavies shouldn't track that good or Orochi's undodgables should be buffed to the point that they are ACTUALLY undodgeable. Anybody that has a move marked UNDODGEABLE should actually operate as such IMO and orochi and others with undodgeables should have them buffed with better tracking.

-Shaolin zone. It's made of crap. Bear with me a moment. So most zones come in three varieties. First Multi Hit*(zerker etc.), Second Quick hit (warden orochi etc) Broken multi hit (kensei, aramusha etc.) The zerker zone does minimal damage but guarantees all 4 hits if the first lands, BUT if the opponent (even an assassin) blocks the first hit it blocks all 4 with continuous guard. this is how most multi hits work. Broken Multi hits work such that they have a window where a person can react to the second or third hit, and have to replace their guard. this is fine because often an opponent can parry the final hit if the kensei or aramusha dont feint it. Shaolin's is in a broken place inbetween these two. Right now if a shaolin zones, not only does it come out quick, but if an assassin blocks the first hit the second and the third are pretty much guaranteed. there is a gap between the first and second hit that has enough time for an assassin to drop their guard, thus failing to block the second and third, but not enough time to raise his/her guard. It also does a hefty amount of damage. So in short as a shaolin against any assassin it's easy mode to keep pressure, you just spam the zone and your undodgeable out of Qi stance...

Other Notes that are not really bugs, and not things that NEED to be changed, but just kinda suck in the Orochi vs Shaolin matchup.

-Orochi's back counter(used to be called riptide strike, dont know if name got changed with the change to light input) comes too slow for the speed and reach of some of the shaolins combos. if he goes from heavy to light, the light will often catch you before you land your counter even with a successful heavy dodge.

-It may just be the magic superbots of arcade mode, but after a parry for the orochi a guardbreak is not guaranteed against a shaolin, maybe because the parry happens at some distance because of the shaolins range and the time it takes to guardbreak at that distance is just enough to recover? anyways this also frustrated me, as often I would parry, GB then attempt to wallsplat but often the GB wouldn't connect.

-Shaolins hyper armor on zone is kinda weird, and IMO not fitting for the movement/class. Again if you back counter(riptide) you'll get hit by the second and third hit hit even after your counter attack lands because of the hyper armor. I mean... can I get hyper armor on my orochi's riptide? JK im not sure thats the right fix, but it is frustrating to time a counter like that correctly to lose the HP trade due to shaolins overpowered zone. If you back dash into storm rush the second hits tracking will connect with you even if you hold back to wait it out (third hit following guaranteed obviously) and if you immediatly dash in again you'll always get hit out of it.

-Additionally I might be wrong about this, but Shaolin's zone feels to me like it puts out too much damage.

11-14-2018, 12:26 AM
I meant to post this in suggestions and feedback. sorry if this is the wrong place. Re-posting it there.

11-14-2018, 12:52 AM
He does have a good zone. I agree with the hit stagger and speed. You don't see many people using it with him, but those that do are to be feared. At least for assasins.

11-14-2018, 01:36 AM
Yup orochi and Shaolin and nuxia need to take it up their butt . Signed by shugoki kensei and lawbringer 👍

11-14-2018, 01:41 AM
Oh and Messi sucks he is no longer the best player most likely he will spend the rest of career on the bench

11-14-2018, 03:20 PM
Not sure when was the last time you ve played but for few seasons already GB is not guaranteed after parry . This has nothing to do with shaolin . If ppl get caught by GB after you parry something means you are playing on a rly low level . Also the zone is absolutly fine . Its 600 ms afaik which is more than reactable . Pks zone is 400 ms in comparision. Also even assassins if they block the first hit and dont change they guard or try to parry the next attks( it has weird timing) they will block it . The window is not that big for the guard to cancel it self. No idea why you recomplaining about hyper armor . Some characters have it , some dont . You just have to adapt. I ve mained orochi and have 23 reps . There are different match ups and you have to fight accordingly to them . Just because you cant use riptide strike on something doesnst mean its broken .
When it comes to undodgable heavy that shaolin has, yes it has great tracking . To try to quote the devs , they ve said it has such a good tracking because otherwise players could just dodge roll away from shaolins qi stance .

11-16-2018, 07:13 AM
@pain seeker Im not talking about a succesful uncountered guardbreak in that segment, I'm talking about that after a parry your guard break can whiff sometimes as orochi which is just kinda weird. Also that was part of my section about things that bother me, but I dont think need to be changed.

Also I am actively playing now, but I am on console. I've completed all three of the weekly quests with 3 characters each (orochi, aramusha, and shinobi) Aramusha usually I do multiple runs with cause hes my main. During the opening virupaksas quest with the three shaolins I really got to experience the zone hell. Maybe I just havent figured it out but it took me way longer with the orochi to clear the first stage than with my other two, and one of the things that frustrated me the absolute most during it was how if I blocked the first attack of their zone my guard would drop before the second one connects and no matter how many times it happened I couldn't get the guard back up in time.(or timed correctly) I did eventually win. My orochi is rep 14 so I haven't played quite as much as you, but I do know my way around him, and No I don't expect riptide to work against everything (that would be stupid) but against most attacks with a similar very fast startup it works, and the shaolin zone is just a weird exception because of how fast it comes out.

Also you make it sound like the guard stays up for you if you just hold left after the first it. I can very very assuredly say this is incorrect. test it out with a friend. if you block the first hit, and keep your control stick to the left, the guard will drop before the second hit.

11-16-2018, 07:14 AM
My biggest complaint is the inconsistency in moves marked with the UNDODGEABLE icon.