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albundy777
09-21-2005, 06:52 PM
Why are so many servers either very restrictive in their settings or just the opposite? Why not somewhere in between? Is there a good server with settings that aren't arcadey, but isn't run by the "real life settings" guys?

I notice that many servers disable exterior views, which makes sense, but then they also disable padlock. WHY? Padlock doesn't let you see anything that you couldn't with the mouse, but without it, most players are at a big disadvantage to the TrackIR users. What about it would cause a problem?

Then, icons. I've played on a bunch of servers, and have yet to find one that has sensible (IMHO) settings for icons...

Don't want me to see the team color? Fine. That's reasonable.

Don't want me to see the player name or markings? At a distance, fine, because tht would give away the team, but nearby, it could only serve to make the game more fun. If I want to play with nameless enemies, I can play offline.

Don't want me to see the plane type? Again, at a distance, fine, but close up, WHY NOT? I'd bet that real pilots could tell what kind of plane they were looking at from much further away than we can even at high resolutions.

Don't want me to see the distance? NO WAY! OK, again, at a distance of more than 2 km or so, fine, but anything less, and we should be able to know whether a plane is coming or going. We are very limited by the fact that we are looking at dots on two-dimensional displays, so saying "real pilots didn't see icons above planes" as an excuse is a little silly to me.

The icons, if used wisely, can be a great asset without becoming "cheating" or unrealistic. They should be used to give us information that we might already have if we were in that situation in real life...

Which comes down to communication.

Why should I not see my teammates on the map? Wouldn't a real pilot in a real battle get to know where the friendlies are? And why on earth can I see every airbase on the map except the ones belonging to the other team? The mission plan screen shows me the enemy airbase. I know where it is. So, why keep me from being able to glance at my map for directions without having to squint to read the letters/numbers on the sides? Didn't they have pencils in WWII that the pilots could use to mark their maps? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

In the end, I know there are options for communication and views that help, such as Teamspeak and TrackIR, and guess what... I use them both... But, I still complain because not only could some of the optional features make up for the things we're still lacking, but it's really not very satisfying dogfighting with some guy who clearly can't see me behind himself even though I could see him, all after I found him because someone told me on Teamspeak, but nobody warned him that I was coming.

I used to be that guy, and it wasn't fun.

I don't want to play on a server where people play with invisible cockpits, but I also don't want to play on one where many people are blind to what's going on around them.

OK, that's my rant. Flame away if you like. I just had to let it out.

albundy777
09-21-2005, 06:52 PM
Why are so many servers either very restrictive in their settings or just the opposite? Why not somewhere in between? Is there a good server with settings that aren't arcadey, but isn't run by the "real life settings" guys?

I notice that many servers disable exterior views, which makes sense, but then they also disable padlock. WHY? Padlock doesn't let you see anything that you couldn't with the mouse, but without it, most players are at a big disadvantage to the TrackIR users. What about it would cause a problem?

Then, icons. I've played on a bunch of servers, and have yet to find one that has sensible (IMHO) settings for icons...

Don't want me to see the team color? Fine. That's reasonable.

Don't want me to see the player name or markings? At a distance, fine, because tht would give away the team, but nearby, it could only serve to make the game more fun. If I want to play with nameless enemies, I can play offline.

Don't want me to see the plane type? Again, at a distance, fine, but close up, WHY NOT? I'd bet that real pilots could tell what kind of plane they were looking at from much further away than we can even at high resolutions.

Don't want me to see the distance? NO WAY! OK, again, at a distance of more than 2 km or so, fine, but anything less, and we should be able to know whether a plane is coming or going. We are very limited by the fact that we are looking at dots on two-dimensional displays, so saying "real pilots didn't see icons above planes" as an excuse is a little silly to me.

The icons, if used wisely, can be a great asset without becoming "cheating" or unrealistic. They should be used to give us information that we might already have if we were in that situation in real life...

Which comes down to communication.

Why should I not see my teammates on the map? Wouldn't a real pilot in a real battle get to know where the friendlies are? And why on earth can I see every airbase on the map except the ones belonging to the other team? The mission plan screen shows me the enemy airbase. I know where it is. So, why keep me from being able to glance at my map for directions without having to squint to read the letters/numbers on the sides? Didn't they have pencils in WWII that the pilots could use to mark their maps? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

In the end, I know there are options for communication and views that help, such as Teamspeak and TrackIR, and guess what... I use them both... But, I still complain because not only could some of the optional features make up for the things we're still lacking, but it's really not very satisfying dogfighting with some guy who clearly can't see me behind himself even though I could see him, all after I found him because someone told me on Teamspeak, but nobody warned him that I was coming.

I used to be that guy, and it wasn't fun.

I don't want to play on a server where people play with invisible cockpits, but I also don't want to play on one where many people are blind to what's going on around them.

OK, that's my rant. Flame away if you like. I just had to let it out.

Bearcat99
09-21-2005, 07:01 PM
Feel free to drop into a 99th coop anytime. If Flyby,RDiamond,Hawggy,Patches or myself are hosting you will have the setting you mentioned.. except we fly with externals.. period. We like to watch the landings and after you land or get shot down we all enjoy the visuals... but we do usually have locked pits and limited icons. Hawggy likes to set them reall really tight..so it is almost like having no icons... LOL I think you will see the gunflash before you see the icons....LMAO.. Dancer likes the more relaxed settings.. and we do that too. WE are in it for the fun.. not the dog eat dog competitition on many DF servers.

gkll
09-22-2005, 12:35 AM
Yes I too have agitated for 'intermediate' settings.

Problem is the semantics around the common usage of "Full Real" when "full switch" is more like it. All this full real BS (already morphed to FR ha ha has its own d**m acronym) means many or most are blind to the fact that it is actually less realistic and that real pilots had it easier in the all important stuff that icons and padlock help with... tracking fast moving objects with your head, looking at a something and guessing how far it is, or what it is, this all has to be absurdly difficult for the FR crowd or they're not happy.

But you are completely right, I fly online very little but whenever I do I find that padlock is always stuck with wonderwoman, rarely a pit on limited icons and padlock server to be found. Since I'm not a masochist who wants to fight aircombat with one eye closed and another with a cardboard tube on it, I end up on 'wonderwoman' servers flying in pit.

Now when it comes to the flying I flip completely. I prefer realistic flight model physics which lead to unrealistically difficult handling (no feedback, g forces etc), so every patch I at least briefly agitate for the best physics 1c can give us and forget how hard it is... it is a flight sim after all (not a viewing sim despite the FR masos....).

EDIT< I fear for 4.02, lot of people still grumbling about 4.01 'departure characteristics' and 1c history suggests it will be 'toned down' when the grumbling is high. Hence I posted a suggestion that the attitude indicator be added to pit on mode so we can see slip and skid, to help with more difficult FMs. Response from others on this forum was predictable "Real planes had no so such indicator, it would be a sin... etc etc, sounds like "real planes didn't have a range indicator floating above them....." when trashing icons.... completely misses the point about the difference between what is truly realistic for viewing, and what is core to sim (FM) and therefore worth doing harder than real life...>

I'm with you buddy

dazza9806482
09-22-2005, 12:53 AM
I agree

Im happy with locked pit and no externals (sometimes), but the online experience for me is really damaged by the masochistic view settings.

not everyone has a 19inch tft and track ir. I have a crappy 17inch CRT and use my hat switch. I basically spend the whole session squinting at my screen trying to find bandits.

disabling padlock is just bizarre. it creates a kind of technology gap between people who can afford TIR and those who cant.

like Bearcat said im really getting into COOPS. Usually less draconian settings, and a purpose.

and lots more fun.

JG54_Arnie
09-22-2005, 01:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dazza9806482:
not everyone has a 19inch tft and track ir. I have a crappy 17inch CRT and use my hat switch. I basically spend the whole session squinting at my screen trying to find bandits.

disabling padlock is just bizarre. it creates a kind of technology gap between people who can afford TIR and those who cant.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Learn to use the mouse man, brings you pretty much on par with those that have trackIR. And a 17" isnt that bad. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

fordfan25
09-22-2005, 01:13 AM
i agree. some servers have settings that for me at least ruins the fun. some people think that just because thay have a big pricy monitor and can play at 4 billion by 7billion res ect that every one else does or should be forced to give up there family to afford to lol. kinda like the no speed bar. for the full real fanboys hears a tip, hit the enter key 3 times. now i dont mind no pad lock. i dont have TIR but i can still play fine with out it how ever i can see were some may need it. icons i can take or leave though i do like them on at short range's. mini map icon for the players plane is a must for me. that is the resone i had to give up on ZvsW server. i can nav with out it if i have to but its just to big a hassel to me. like if i get into a big fight half way to target and then i gotta look all over for some land mark to get my barrings again. just takes the fun away IMO. sure that may be what real piolets did how ever with the limatations of graghics and not real land makes that harder.

what i love the most though is the real hardist of the hard core who demands every thing be full real ect but when he dies in game ....he hits reflyhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif servers that are so hyped about FR need to make a auto ban for life for any player that dies. LMAO.

dazza9806482
09-22-2005, 01:59 AM
@Arnie: I can use the mouse, in fact my stick POV is set to emulate a mouse movement so i get decent view control- so this is on a par with TIR?

Why bother with TIR then? From what ive read and seen it is considerably better than using the mouse.

blindpugh
09-22-2005, 02:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dazza9806482:
@Arnie: I can use the mouse, in fact my stick POV is set to emulate a mouse movement so i get decent view control- so this is on a par with TIR?

Why bother with TIR then? From what ive read and seen it is considerably better than using the mouse. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>get a track-ball mouse m8 they're better than a normal mouse-you dont need hatswitch then -use it for trims

rnzoli
09-22-2005, 03:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by albundy777:
Why are so many servers either very restrictive in their settings or just the opposite? Why not somewhere in between? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let me turn around the question: instead of ranting, why don't you start and maintain a server with any settings you like? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

There you may have the answer. Running a server means that you are much more serious about IL2 than just an average gamer. So you tend to lean towards arcadish settings to boost player count, or go down the realistic path to attrack the hardcore mazochist crowd.

Was that a flame? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

rnzoli
09-22-2005, 03:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gkll:
Yes I too have agitated for 'intermediate' settings.

Problem is the semantics around the common usage of "Full Real" when "full switch" is more like it. All this full real BS </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Stop agitating, and start acting. Join forces with albundy777, and get your very own server up and running, with your very own settings, from your very own money. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

WOLFMondo
09-22-2005, 03:56 AM
I don't have a pricey monitor but its very good quality. IIyama 17" Vision master pro. Costs about $200. Remember the monitor is the thing you always look at so you should invest in a good one, if nothing else so you have good eye sight when your old and gray.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gkll:

Problem is the semantics around the common usage of "Full Real" when "full switch" is more like it. All this full real BS (already morphed to FR ha ha has its own d**m acronym) means many or most are blind to the fact that it is actually less realistic and that real pilots had it easier in the all important stuff that icons and padlock help with... tracking fast moving objects with your head, looking at a something and guessing how far it is, or what it is, this all has to be absurdly difficult for the FR crowd or they're not happy.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its not difficult after you've played with these settings for a while. Use of the hat switch with new view or FB view plus, the mouse or TIR is pretty easy once you get the hang of it. You learn to recognise aircraft shapes at a distance .

The best remedy is to fly in packs one comms. The more eyes the better and if your in a group you all know who you are, where you are and you can ask for conformation if you see a plane you cannot id.

Its probably not the answer your looking for but its the challenges real pilots faced trying to find heavily camoflaged aircraft 5,000 or 10,000ft below them traveling at 300mph.

albundy777
09-22-2005, 04:48 AM
OK, I'm glad to see I'm not the only one. From the lack of servers with the settings I'd like to see, I just assumed everyone would tell me why the current ones are better, and that I should just accept it.

Bearcat99, thanks for the suggestion. I've never really played COOP or on your server, but I'll definitely check it out.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I can use the mouse, in fact my stick POV is set to emulate a mouse movement so i get decent view control- so this is on a par with TIR? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
dazza9806482, I'd actually say that TrackIR is more like the snap views than the mouse-like pan views. Once you get used to it, you learn where to turn your head to get the view you want, and spend a lot less time lining them up. It's very easy to glance back and then forward again. Though, having used both the regular TrackIR, and now the Vector, it's infinitely easier to do that when you don't have to worry about your head's position as well as the rotation.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Let me turn around the question: instead of ranting, why don't you start and maintain a server with any settings you like? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
rnzoli, I'd really love to, but it's not really within my means. I do absolutely appreciate what those that run servers do for us, but I worry that they often overlook certain things that can make the game less enjoyable for others without considering that everyone could be happy if they changed a few things.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So you tend to lean towards arcadish settings to boost player count, or go down the realistic path to attrack the hardcore mazochist crowd. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
My problem isn't really with the realism vs. arcadish concepts. It's that on the arcadish servers, the playing field is even. Those without TrackIR can use padlock. Those without high res screens and high details can rely on icons for info. Those not using voice chat can use the map to get an idea about what their teammates are doing.

On the realism servers though, these options are often taken away, even though they really have nothing to do with realism. That ruins the balance between players, and gives certain people a big advantage. I'm all for a true realism environment where exterior views are off, CEM is on, ammo and fuel is limited, and so on. In fact, I personally prefer it, but that's because those settings are there specifically to make it more about skill.

Unfortunately, in most cases, other settings seem to come hand in hand, but actually have the opposite effect. They have nothing to do with skill, and only serve to limit those players who don't have ways to get around them.

rnzoli
09-22-2005, 05:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by albundy777:
I do absolutely appreciate what those that run servers do for us, but I worry that they often overlook certain things that can make the game less enjoyable for others without considering that everyone could be happy if they changed a few things. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
And believe me, server admins appreciate their visitors! I suggest going to a sever that is closest to your desires, and talk to the people on-line. If everyone agrees with you - as you assume -, it will be no problem to approach the server owners and ask them for an adjustment in the settings. The pitfall is that not everyone will necessarily agree with you and then the server admin has to choose, whose requests to prefer.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by albundy777:
On the realism servers though, these options are often taken away, even though they really have nothing to do with realism. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mind you that as a (little) server operator, I don't care about realism. I simply set full difficulty to make the gaming experience as varied, intensive and challenging as possible.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">That ruins the balance between players, and gives certain people a big advantage. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif So have you ever wondered why others are playing on those servers, except for the 'certain people'?

I know that our server has those 'certain' people, but they are all corteous, helpful, take worse aircraft or change sides when needed. That's why '******ed targets' like me like to fly with them, or against them, anyway.

Not to mention that occasionally I set the weather to thunderstorm, and man, that evens out the field for everyone! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

OC77th-Stone
09-22-2005, 08:52 AM
Can someone tell me exactly what padlock does? Is it the setting that lets you lock on to closest enemy/friend? Im currently running a server with it off, we have cocpit on, no external views and limited icons for friendly only. We are trying to find the right settings to get the most out of our server, but none of us want the old wonder woman view.

JG54_Arnie
09-22-2005, 09:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dazza9806482:
@Arnie: I can use the mouse, in fact my stick POV is set to emulate a mouse movement so i get decent view control- so this is on a par with TIR?

Why bother with TIR then? From what ive read and seen it is considerably better than using the mouse. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But is that emulation as fast as the normal mouse? I'm sure that TrackIR and mouse lookaround speeds are equal. TrackIR gives the advantage that its more natural and you have one hand free to use for throttle and other fancy movements. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
But for low budget guys like me, the mouse is the next best.. imo. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

gkll
09-22-2005, 09:14 AM
Its probably not the answer your looking for but its the challenges real pilots faced trying to find heavily camoflaged aircraft 5,000 or 10,000ft below them traveling at 300mph.[/QUOTE]

There is where the disagreement. I simply do not believe that spotting another plane, when you are looking right at it, was as difficult as no icons is in this game. This is an old topic and I am sure we will never agree. Simply put, my position is that a RL plane at 2 k is easily visible camo or not, probably further, &lt;when you are looking right at it&gt;. In game, this is commonly not possible and subject to technology etc. You can actually see the wing engines on an airliner at 15 k in RL, what does any plane show up in game at 15 k?

And padlock allows you to 'zoom in' for a better peek at a bogey, among other totally natural actions I have no desire to 'learn'. (its not zoom before people start.... it is the real view you would have, given an average distance of your head from a typical monitor, zoom it is not, just narrow field of view). When you are in this mode, it like having a tube bolted on one eye to look through, and then mouse view added to this means you have to move the tube around with small muscle groups in your hand and arm.... to find the bogey you were &lt;just&gt; looking at.

It just all seems both less realistic and subject to technology and lots of practice to learn stuff we all picked up between the ages of 1 and 3 in RL....

For the FM, which is core to this flight sim, I accept and encourage higher difficulty than RL because this is what I am actually interested in, the plane and the flying. It is worth struggling through a learning curve made more difficult by lack of RL feedback, ie g force, sensation of slip, shuddering etc etc. However those looking for the right difficulty level (and hence realism) might consider agitating for 'easier' flight difficulty (assuming they are presently 'too hard' compared to RL, something I am not convinced of).

I'm 56 k, there'll be no servers coming from this gent. My bud has hosted reasonable settings, hard to get takers however, wonderwoman is stuck in peoples heads with padlock and icons.....

gkll
09-22-2005, 09:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OC77th-Stone:
Can someone tell me exactly what padlock does? Is it the setting that lets you lock on to closest enemy/friend? Im currently running a server with it off, we have cocpit on, no external views and limited icons for friendly only. We are trying to find the right settings to get the most out of our server, but none of us want the old wonder woman view. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Padlock is like this, you are watching a pair of friends throw a ball back and forth, and you are watching the ball.... thats it. However people sneer at padlock, label it arcade etc etc, sometimes it appears they wish to learn everything from scratch, like easily and naturally watching a fast moving object by moving their head, maybe this sim should eliminate the virtual pilots breathing function, we should all put breathing on an extra slider, if you don't move the slider enough your pilot blacks out.... makes as much sense as disallowing natural head movement....

Holycannoli
09-22-2005, 09:40 AM
I agree wholeheartedly (except for padlock which is just a personal thing).

We are limited to pixels on a monitor in front of us. So the icon settings in particular come in very handy to simulate realism. Yeah, the fact that there's an icon floating in the air isn't real, but the info it relays is.

It's info that we would know if we were the actual pilots in real life. And since it isn't and we are limited to pixels on a monitor, we need icons to tell us this info. Things like distance and then plane type.

Limited icons though. Settings are important like you said.

TgD Thunderbolt56
09-22-2005, 09:47 AM
We typically use "intermediate" settings on greatergreen (although you'll likely NEVER see enemy icons). many of the settings are there as a result of majority input from people that fly there regularly.

I've spent a good bit of my online time lately on the Zekes-vs-Wildcats server that has NO icons or minimap path and while it is initially disconcerting, disorienting and a good bit harder, the transition (or acclimation period rather) there is an air of anticipation in every encounter and I've found my situational awareness has improved slightly as well.

I'm not trying to 'justify' anyone's settings nor discount your concerns, however a decent rig, TIR and TS go far to aid and increase my own personal enjoyment in this sim. Nonehteless, I've been spending most of my time as a lone-wolf on Z-v-W and while I've experienced a modicum of success, I realize there will always be those that seem to be fodder for the squad-based groups that continually prey on the less-experienced. That's just the way it is.


TB

JtD
09-22-2005, 10:19 AM
If you'd like to fly with externals on try UK-D, my home. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Historical planesets, objective based maps, tough competition, medium settings (different on each server).

TheGozr
09-22-2005, 11:00 AM
It's all question of setting up your Computer and periphericals to be at best. To get to a certain level of sim you need to spend some time on flying and anderstand planes etc...
When you start to learn how to drive it's seamce so difficult and complex but after some time it just became reflexes. Think that way you may enjoy them better.

Who knows you may want one of this days fight in PROWAR with the best.

WOLFMondo
09-22-2005, 11:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gkll:

And padlock allows you to 'zoom in' for a better peek at a bogey, among other totally natural actions I have no desire to 'learn'. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Learning is part of the sim though. Trouble with padlock is you look around and it targets planes which are camoflaged again the background which you might not see otherwise.

I think padlock is the easy way out and not realistic because your using an aid to help you locate enemy aircraft.

gkll
09-22-2005, 11:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheGozr:
It's all question of setting up your Computer and periphericals to be at best. To get to a certain level of sim you need to spend some time on flying and anderstand planes etc...
When you start to learn how to drive it's seamce so difficult and complex but after some time it just became reflexes. Think that way you may enjoy them better.

Who knows you may want one of this days fight in PROWAR with the best. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ha ha - I notice that when you speak of learning you speak of flying and planes, that learning I am interested in doing. Just not the learning to 'move my head' or 'estimate range' stuff, seems a total waste of time, don't want a 'viewing sim', looking for a 'flying sim' thanks, hence my sarcastic comment about adding simulated breathing to the simulated viewing imposed by no padlock or icon servers... lets go all the way with 'Full Real' boys....

Talk is cheap I do too much of it. Now I have real things to do.... i'm out of here.

gkll
09-22-2005, 11:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gkll:

And padlock allows you to 'zoom in' for a better peek at a bogey, among other totally natural actions I have no desire to 'learn'. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Learning is part of the sim though. Trouble with padlock is you look around and it targets planes which are camoflaged again the background which you might not see otherwise.

I think padlock is the easy way out and not realistic because your using an aid to help you locate enemy aircraft. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

One more quickie then Im really out of here.

I use the icons to find the aircraft silly... they supersede padlock. I you dislike padlock you must really hate icons.... really though the point is that no monitor will ever match your eyes so we are short on information real pilots had. And it is the boring part of the sim, so why not make it as easy as RL?

EDIT&lt; something a bit more constructive. The sim gives us great flexibility in icon info and distances, I believe that was given us for exactly the ability to maximize the reality of the tactics. The makers may be mildly surprized at the number of Full Switch servers... they might have assumed that the "Full Real" boys would end up with some kind of limited icons pit on option. I like plane ID at 1km, range info (grey) at 3. I never use padlock except for a gunsight view at something Ive already spotted, if it can't be changed for range that it is a potential cheat on FR.... you would get a 3 k ID unfairly&gt;
S! all

Stigler_9_JG52
09-22-2005, 11:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG54_Arnie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dazza9806482:
not everyone has a 19inch tft and track IR. I have a crappy 17-inch CRT and use my hat switch. I basically spend the whole session squinting at my screen trying to find bandits.

Disabling padlock is just bizarre. it creates a kind of technology gap between people who can afford TIR and those who cant.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Learn to use the mouse man, brings you pretty much on par with those that have trackIR. And a 17" isnt that bad. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or going further, bloody learn to use your HAT SWITCH properly!!!

People go on and on about Track IR and mice as if the hat switch had never been invented. Padlock is an invention that was (badly) designed to spare people from learning to use their hats properly.

This little doohickey, available on nearly EVERY joystick, pretty much solves your viewinig headaches by itself, if you'll just practice a little with it. Really, moving a thumb a quarter of an inch in any direction is not too much to ask. It really is that intuitive. And, once you get used to it, it doesn't lose that much compared to Track IR.

The only rub might be, you need to have an "up modifier" button, to alter your view upward 45 degrees, so you can get a complete field of vision outside your plane. I personally won't consider a stick that doesn't have a pinky switch low and on the front of the stick; but I suppose a button on a throttle in the left hand might do in a pinch.

As for mouse viewing, this is FAR from ideal when you also need to manipulate a joystick and a throttle unit. Mouse is ok for looking around the inside of the pit when there's no immediate danger, or for manning flex guns, but for piloting in combat, it's horrid.

Track IR is "nice to have" but it's expensive enough to give anyone pause. The thing is, it's not really crucial to have. Your money is better invested in rudder pedals or a throttle.

Your HATSWITCH (+ an up modifier button) is ALL YOU NEED.

dazza9806482
09-22-2005, 11:53 AM
Ok Stigler before i get the learn to use your hatswitch bollocks, i have been playing this sim since 2003, i dont need patronising advice on how to 'look around'.

my point was that i like GK dont understand why padlock is disabled, and while i realise i can track a bandit using the hatswitch (and i do, effectively) its not as natural feeling as the following with your eyes movement u get with padlock or indeed track ir.

as for the mouse i really would need to learn to fly all over again since ive learnt to use the stick with my right hand and i also use my mouse with the right.

at what point did i give the impression i was haivng trouble looking around? i just prefer padlock, it replicates a fairly intuitive human characteristic and its extremely imersive. probably like tir and i dont understand why its so resticted.

then again i dont have the money to run a server so i take the point.

nor the money to get TIR.

dazza9806482
09-22-2005, 11:58 AM
as an followup when i said i was squinting at the screen trying to find bandits i was focusing on the resolution and recognition issues.

basically i dont enjoy following tiny black dots around, i get eye strain.

every flight ive been on u can distinguish cars and other planes from miles away. subtle things like movement and glinting reflections.

what happened to the brief but aborted biggish dots? around 3.01 or something

rnzoli
09-22-2005, 12:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gkll:
I'm 56 k, there'll be no servers coming from this gent. My bud has hosted reasonable settings, hard to get takers however, wonderwoman is stuck in peoples heads with padlock and icons..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Get broadband, a 128 bit/s uplink ADSL will carry 8 players nice and smooth at 28kbit/s each.

There are plenty of takers on this forum, so shouldn't be a problem to find playmates.

TacticalYak3
09-22-2005, 01:02 PM
Not sure if others mentioned but some of the things you asked about are not possible with the current game.

One cannot only show Friendly Map icons, nor does the game allow you to reveal Enemy Name icons.

Most of the other items are possible. I host with a 2KM black icon with Friendly Names and Plane Types for both sides. Externals for COOP missions within the squad (so folks have something to watch after landing/killed). Most (maybe all?) have TIR so no one has ever asked me about padlock.

The distance indicator is tricky. While I tend to agree it could be enabled at closer distances, I find this gives too much information away in a DF, and prefer folks to develop their skills/experience in this regard. Plus I personally prefer a minimal icon presentation. Wished small symbols could be used instead of plan type.

TS!

TheGozr
09-22-2005, 01:19 PM
gkll , to look at your ennemy and aircrafts are as well learning processes .. BTW the real Pilots use eyes trainings, have you heard of it? And if you want a good advice for you eyes training in game go buy Quake 3... and get use to the fast movements of your mouse and eyes. than comeback to il2 and concentrate a bit more that you do normaly. You will make a big favor to yourself.

It's hard to be good, don't be leasy.
PS: gkll Everything is the same way you read and anderstand.. "Planes etc.. " meaning ETC...
No wonder you can't see well. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ( joke )

Jetbuff
09-22-2005, 01:20 PM
First let's get this out of the way: no difficulty combination I know of in FB is "realistic". However, flying full-switch, while challenging and arguably more difficult in certain aspects than the real thing, does accurately reproduce some great immersive moments. e.g. I had always read pilot accounts mentioning how the sky would be full of swirling bogies one moment and then completely empty the next. With icons on or cockpit off this simply will not happen. You also get to use realistic escape tactics like the bunt which again would not work with padlock or cockpit off. Now, that may not be everyone's cup of tea but whatever floats your boat. There are enough people posting in support of your view in this thread to host at least a couple of servers with the settings you are looking for so stop ranting about it and do something.

LeadSpitter_
09-22-2005, 03:07 PM
Well everyone has different opinions, and ubi and 1c cator to all.

I prefer fr settings always have and is the most tactically intense, visual identification, hardest teamwork on comms needed, mental situational awareness remembering where you teamates are, navigation after the fight. To me nothing compairs.

the easier settings are good for kids who just want low alt turnfights and close bases for instant action and the old foggies who cant see squat even with coke bottle glasses and rely on external views for avoiding and checking six.

Externals off does improve gunnery skills tho because of the checksix tappers avoiding the majority of bounces but you catch those people in fullreal and they dont stand a chance.

Trackir is an advantage but also a disadvantage with its lockups and poor fps results. Hat switchs are always fine and even better is mouseview or mouselook on satiek hotas.

JG54_Arnie
09-22-2005, 03:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stigler_9_JG52:
Or going further, bloody learn to use your HAT SWITCH properly!!!

People go on and on about Track IR and mice as if the hat switch had never been invented. Padlock is an invention that was (badly) designed to spare people from learning to use their hats properly.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hatswitch is too slow. I used it before and it never got me the speed I need in combat, although you have your other hand free for the throttle, I'd rather just switch to the throttle quickly when needed than be too slow in seeing my foo, which is way more deadly.

gkll
09-22-2005, 05:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:

the easier settings are good for kids who just want low alt turnfights and close bases for instant action and the old foggies who cant see squat even with coke bottle glasses and rely on external views for avoiding and checking six.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well it was looking like a fair post til you hit the second paragraph, and there it is again. The smug certainty that non €œFR€ fliers are either arcade noob spitdweebs or blind old fogies... LOL buddy... IMO you are not FR you are Fmasochist ha ha, &lt;I&gt; am full real and you, you are merely &lt;well practiced&gt; and &lt;well equipped&gt; for dealing with absurdly difficult viewing options....

The reason this issue has legs is that smug superiority that crops up repeatedly....

Jetbuff I can respect an opinion based on immersiveness, however please note no one arguing the 'other side' of this thread is defending wonderwoman, the opposite in fact, look at the original post again... it is a fact that padlock, icons and wonderwoman are bound together in peoples minds, and on the servers, which is the precise thing the original poster was complaining about. And me.

Really its not that big a deal and Ive more than said my piece. This thread is similar to a least a couple of others if not many more I have seen.... still as a fast typer it is fun to drag out this stuff again, just to see if there has been a change in the 'average' opinion. I would say not.....

TheGozr
09-22-2005, 06:15 PM
Well thank you for you time we are very honored. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Targ
09-22-2005, 06:49 PM
Learning to fly full switch takes lots of practice and skill. I am sorry that you are not willing to take the time to learn how it can be done as others have.
The other option is to start your own server, but you are not interested in that either, I am not sure what you want but "when in rome" comes to mind.
Sorry, but I am not sympathetic to your cause since you are unwilling to do anything on your own.

albundy777
09-22-2005, 07:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Targ:
Sorry, but I am not sympathetic to your cause since you are unwilling to do anything on your own. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Wow. I said I was expecting flames, but from a moderator?!?

I never said I wasn't willing to learn. I've been playing for years on the very servers I critisized, and just thought I'd make a point from my experiences. I've only held it back for a long time for fear of starting a flame war.

If you'd read my posts in this thread, you'd see that while I feel that some settings give people an advantage over others, I also happen to be one of those people who plays with TrackIR and Teamspeak, so my concerns are not simply for my own experience. You'd also see that I pointed out that I WOULD like to start my own server, but that's not really possible for me. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I also pointed out that I do appreciate that these servers exist in the first place.



I do thank all the rest of you for your civil responses to this thread.

TacticalYak3, thanks for pointing out that some of my suggestions wouldn't be possible. I thought some of those might be the case, but wasn't aware of the specifics.

WOLFMondo, I honestly overlooked the fact that padlock could be used to spot planes. When I used it, I always hit F4 when my view was centered on the plane I wanted to track, so it wouldn't get the wrong one, and I really only saw its purpose as being for tracking nearby planes that I was already engaged with.

I don't know if there is a setting for it, but would people still object if it was possible to only enable it for planes closer than a certain distance?

RAF238thKnight
09-22-2005, 07:20 PM
Let me add my 2 cents:

The immersion factor in this simulation is what I am looking for and many that I choose to fly with.

Everything in life is not free go after the market you want to cater to. Create a website and host a server and pay money for a year and see if there are those who believe in your cause. Most servers running have tried and tested so many angles for years and have chosen there market flyer and they cater to them.

So to get upset is not the approach. GO FOR IT!!

And for all the ones who just jump on to hyperlobby for a free ride understand your fun is comming out of some ones pocket$$$$$$.

Last Good Luck servers are not cheap and definately not easy to run or plaese the masses.

Our group chose the other less traveled road.

Knight

Jumoschwanz
09-22-2005, 07:52 PM
Hey Al,

How long have you been flyin the sim? I think if you practice more you will do better and enjoy full real settings more. I use to use padlock a lot when the sim first came out four years ago, but for the last few years I have only used a hat-switch, and it works perfectly against anyone whether they have trackIR or not. I also learned to ID planes very well over the years and if you fly on a well run server they enforce historical markings for the craft.

There are a lot of tactics and tips and tricks you can teach yourself to do fine and enjoy hard settings. If you give up before you start you will be very slow to get everything this sim has to offer you!

A 17" monitor is small, but I used one for the first two years I flew this sim on full real settings! Then I got a 19" crt and it was much better, I recommend a larger monitor as the first upgrade for anyone with a small monitor!

I still have my older rig ready to go with my crt and I still, and will go online with it on request and for fun and use it with hard settings. Experience is the best set of eyes for hard settings. I know a guy in Finland that was flying full real servers with a pentium II and no track IR up into when PF came out and he did great!

Jumoschwanz

albundy777
09-22-2005, 08:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
Hey Al,

How long have you been flyin the sim? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I've been flying since the original IL-2, and have used every version since then. I don't fly that often (maybe once a week), but haven't so much since BF2 came out (no, I don't fly at all in BF2), so I'm pretty rusty ATM.

I am pretty comfortable with my setup though. My reason for starting this thread was more about my thinking certain things would make more sense if done a little differently than just flicking all of the switches on, as opposed to requesting that things be made easier for my sake. I am glad to hear that people such as yourself are comfortable with hard settings even without TrackIR.

FYI, for a long time I flew with low details and low res and the visibility and icons WERE issues for myself, but have recently upgraded and am now flying at 1400x1050 at pretty high detail settings, so I'll see how that goes. I would fly at the full 1680x1050 if not for some widescreen issues (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/2341038753).

Holycannoli
09-22-2005, 09:46 PM
Yeah they're issues for me too. I prefer close range icons as a result. It's not easy to make out anything on my monitor until it's right up on my nose, and I know that that's just not realistic (I think I blew out something in this monitor but can't afford a new one).

Question: At what distance, IRL, could pilots accurately identify other planes in the air? And at what distance in this sim can people accurately identify them? I suspect that IRL the maximum distance is much greater than in this sim, but I don't know for sure so I'm asking.

EDIT: my preferred settings (rare to find)

No padlock
Icons on, with short range (no 1k away and already getting info)
No map icons
No WW wiew (cockpit only)
Externals on (can be off too, not a big deal. Just for a fun factor)

Oh, and by "icons" I mean the small bits of info next to the other planes in cockpit view that can show the plane type, range, name of pilot etc. Not the map icons.

Without those icons (with short range only!) I simply cannot identify a plane until it's too late. Limitations of my slightly blurry monitor. But out in the real world I can not only identify planes and jets flying high overhead, I can sometimes tell what airline they are. Now, if I tried to make that same kind of precise ID in this sim at that same range, all I'd see is a small black dot on the monitor. That's not realistic.

So, icons on for me! With whatever range you guys say real life pilots can begin identifying other planes.

Badsight.
09-22-2005, 10:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gkll:
The reason this issue has legs is that smug superiority that crops up repeatedly.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>ha ha this is so true

but i have to qualify this by saying i believe full switch requires the biggest knowledge+skill combination

i understand why people like Padlock , & i know some players that use it naturally without it putting them off their flying one bit

for them to be able to use padlock so well its annoying to not be able to use it - i understand that as well as the limited PC monitor view train of thought

but fact is you can use Padlock to "Game the Game" you might not see the plane in the direction your looking in , but by constant Padlock key tapping you can guarantee not to get surprised

lots of full real players dont like their attack to be avoided , not when they carefully set up a good safe kill pass , to these types of people , anything that helps with bounce avoidence is bad

gkll
09-22-2005, 11:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RAF238thKnight:
Let me add my 2 cents:

The immersion factor in this simulation is what I am looking for and many that I choose to fly with.

Everything in life is not free go after the market you want to cater to. Create a website and host a server and pay money for a year and see if there are those who believe in your cause. Most servers running have tried and tested so many angles for years and have chosen there market flyer and they cater to them.

So to get upset is not the approach. GO FOR IT!!

And for all the ones who just jump on to hyperlobby for a free ride understand your fun is comming out of some ones pocket$$$$$$.

Last Good Luck servers are not cheap and definately not easy to run or plaese the masses.

Our group chose the other less traveled road.

Knight </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. My buddy has and will again host servers, not my fav settings but closer than most. I can't, on a phone line in the boonies.

GOZR I didn't mean to sound like a patronizing ****, more me rationalizing the time I spent typing all this than suggesting you were all guinea pigs or what have you

I just like to argue a point, there is certainly a valid point of view that full switch is not full real, also a valid point by original poster that servers seem to be either full switch or wonderwoman, little in between. Arguing the point I hope would allow full real people to see they could stoop to icons/padlock/NO wonderwoman and still keep their self respect, its a fact you meet a better class of flyer by far on full switch and would be nice to attract more of them to my fav settings, thats all

S! all and sorry for the patronizing and sarcastic BS,little irritable earlier

gkll
09-22-2005, 11:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Badsight.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gkll:
The reason this issue has legs is that smug superiority that crops up repeatedly.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>ha ha this is so true

but i have to qualify this by saying i believe full switch requires the biggest knowledge+skill combination

i understand why people like Padlock , & i know some players that use it naturally without it putting them off their flying one bit

for them to be able to use padlock so well its annoying to not be able to use it - i understand that as well as the limited PC monitor view train of thought

but fact is you can use Padlock to "Game the Game" you might not see the plane in the direction your looking in , but by constant Padlock key tapping you can guarantee not to get surprised

lots of full real players dont like their attack to be avoided , not when they carefully set up a good safe kill pass , to these types of people , anything that helps with bounce avoidence is bad </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Badsight what is the gaming you mean? And others believe the padlock is implemented poorly... what is the problem? Should it just stop immediately and not track for a bit (when a plane goes out of sight)? That would be fine... Does the padlock activate always at 3 k? Or can it be shortened to icon ID range? We have just played with the icon settings....

Badsight.
09-22-2005, 11:49 PM
tracking a plane is the point of Padlocks development & use in FB

by "Game the Game" i mean you can be shifting your view around tapping the lock key hoping to lock on what you dont see

Padlock limited to icon distance setting ? thats a thing ive never bothered to test!

i do know Padlock used to work out to 5km distance & Maddox Games reduced this to 3Km max due to community requests

with externals on , external enemy lock view is unlimited in distance . i & anyone else can lock on a Bandit & fly directly to whereever he is from 100 , 200 , 300 , 400 ect km away

i dont mind Padlock being on , i cant use it & fight effectivly but i dont mind those that can having it

i would like to see a Host Option to disable "External lock view" when Externals are on

it would eliminate most of the bias & bounce avoidence that Externals have

gkll
09-23-2005, 12:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Badsight.:
tracking a plane is the point of Padlocks development & use in FB

by "Game the Game" i mean you can be shifting your view around tapping the lock key hoping to lock on what you dont see

Padlock limited to icon distance setting ? thats a thing ive never bothered to test!

i do know Padlock used to work out to 5km distance & Maddox Games reduced this to 3Km max due to community requests

with externals on , external enemy lock view is unlimited in distance . i & anyone else can lock on a Bandit & fly directly to whereever he is from 100 , 200 , 300 , 400 ect km away

i dont mind Padlock being on , i cant use it & fight effectivly but i dont mind those that can having it

i would like to see a Host Option to disable "External lock view" when Externals are on

it would eliminate most of the bias & bounce avoidence that Externals have </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks - Some stuff here I never considered. I use padlock exclusively on bandits I have already spotted.... never in externals nor any random tapping and looking around. But if some do and they would then there maybe is a problem.

RAF238thKnight
09-23-2005, 04:20 AM
One thing to always remember everything that an honest simer would consider a useful tool and to help correctly, can be miss used by the GAMER.

Prime example a gamer is one to have a quick set button for gamma on his stick one reason why trim is talked about so much. by hitting a button to increase gamma they can see your plane through a blackout and with trim effectivly manuver through the turn. So best solution I have heard is to disable trim when full blackout occurs and be done with it.

I chose full switch just for the nervous flying of a good RAF pilot waiting as I head toa conflick I might get BOUNCED. Boy does it happen often lol. that supprise strike could not occur with the GAMER. He would padlock and keep repeating and that good jump by the 109 pilot would be gone.

So that is why we have chosen the road of FULL SWITCH. The other thing is as you fly with the guys and learn the maps you would be amazed at the number that luv it and find it to EASY when they go to medium setting.

MONEY I know some are worse off, but I struggle to make this game as fun every time I sit down on Saturday when we host the Squadron Match.

Knight

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Jumoschwanz
09-23-2005, 05:48 AM
Ok,

Here is how to get it done on full switch:

First you are going to be doing one of a few things, either doing Combat Air Patrol at high alt, doing ground attack at low alt, or covering ground attack, that will be either friendly or enemy.

For CAP at high alt, take-off and get to 7000 meters alt by either broadly circling your base, or by flying in a direction that will not take you into an area you are likely to encounter a fight. Sure this takes a bit of time, it did in WWII also though. Note: you want your actual alt to be just a bit under 7k so you do not leave a vapor trail someone can spot! Take a lot of gas with you, enough to fly for an hour or so!
Once you are up to alt, head to a likely spot to bounce a foe. This will be between their base and a target or patrol area. You want to find a spot where they are not quite done climbing to alt like you have, where you are in the sun and preferably in a position that will let you see them pass between you and some clouds. Then you keep your head on a swivel, and patrol around and look for dots.

HOw do you know if a dot is a friend or a foe with no icons and no coms? Easy! Just look at what it is doing. If it is climbing away from an enemy base in the direction of a target area it is probably a foe right? If it is climbing away from your base in the direction of a target area it is probably one or your guys. If it is heading toward your base at low alt, it is one of your guys heading home or maybe a vulcher, is it smoking? Two planes heading to your base low means a friend being chased by a foe.

Look at tracers and AAA! they are different colors and shapes and sizes for the different planes. You can look at an air battle or ground attack from a long ways off and pick out dots that are friend or foe by the color of the tracers or the AAA they are attracting or not attracting.

AAA: If you see a series of flashes on the ground, or black puffs heading toward your base or on your side of the front, you know the AAA is tracking a foe, likewise you know a buddy is over there by an enemy target area or base by the ground flashes or smoke from AAA on the enemy side of the line. Not to mention the obvious line of tracers from yours or theirs short AAA that puts a line right through where someone is flying.

So you have a fix on a dot, now if you are at a good alt advantage, which you should be, do one of two things, if it is furthere away, fly toward it in a shallow dive, picking up to a great speed gradually, you want to end up doing 700km/hr(at least) half to three quarters a kilo a bit behind and below the target. This way you will hit them and go right over them and climb back to alt and turn and see what you have wrought! If it turn out to be an enemy bomber, then you will have to modify your attack to approach where they do not have any gunnners!

If you spot an obvious foe closer and below you, then it is time for a slashing attack and a nice near-full deflection shot. Head straight for the bastard, watching what they are doing so you meet them at some angle, pull the trigger and then climb sharply to near vertical with a bit of a twist so you can again, see what you have done and figure out what to do next.

If the target you hit is heading down trailing smoke, parts or flames, you might as well just forget about it and let him go. Get back to alt, look for more dots or his wingman, or every enemy on the map heading your way that saw the tracers(tracers attract other pilots like flies to SH IT). You will see the "enemy destroyed" on your HUD when the target hits the ground or makes some landing somewhere. Either way, you cleared your airspace right? And maybe you will pick up some points for it when you land.

Notice we have done no "dogfighting" or "turning and burning" at all, if you end up having to do that you have fu*&ked up!

NOw you are going to do some ground attack. Your target can be anything, a boat, an airbase, something on the front line. Whatever it is, doing ground attack and getting back home in one piece on a properly designed and defended map is a very tough assignment. Every piece of AAA and every enemy fighter in the area will be on your A SS.

First you want to come into the target zone from a direction the enemy will not easily suspect. If you fly in a straight line from your base to the target, then you deserve to be shot down. Once you are set to approach from this covert direction, pick your altitude for your attack. On a summer map, you might want to stay close to the deck as you wind your way into position. Depending on the AAA defense and the terrain, you might want to start your attack run on the deck or at between 2000-3000 meters alt. If the terrain is hilly, then you might want to find a way to approach on the deck to use the terrain to shield you against tough AAA until you are almost on top of the target. the same hilly terrain you can duck behind to shield you on fleeing the target area.
If the terrain is flat and you can see the target from a great distance when you are on the deck, then you want to approach the target area at between two and three thousand meters alt, whatever suits your plane. This is because you are going to approach the target, and at the first sign of flack you are going to go into a dive at the target that will put you heading toward it on the deck at very high speed, so you can hit it then use the speed to get far away fast.
Heading for home after a ground attack, in an odd direction might save you too. Head away from home or in a direction on the deck that you will not be looked for. The enemy will have seen the AAA tracking you and the explosions from your attack, and will be looking for you to make a beeline toward the front line or your base, don't.

Of course high alt bombing with a bombsight is an art in itself, good luck.

Now and then, you will end up spotting an enemy fighter coming at you at an advantage, he has alt on you or is close to your six. What you do about it depends on what you are flying. If you are in a single engine plane with forward firing guns, and you spot him from a great distance, then you can turn into his attack and try and take him out with a near-head-on deflection shot, and maybe get lucky dogfighting in your IL2 or other ground attack aircraft.
If you have a gunner position you can try and get in a gunner seat and hit him when he is greater than 600 meters away. This is because if he is closer, he will be firing soon and will kill you in the gunner seat! When the foe is firing on your bomber, you are way better off being in the pilots seat and flying evasive manuevers while your AI gunners, which have better aim than you anyway for the most part, take care of business.

So if you do things right, on a full-realistic server, you will avoid the turning fight, take out your air or ground targets, and get back to base alive. The fun on this type of server is in the satisfaction of planning a mission and outsmarting the enemy, and getting away with it!

ANother nice thing is you actually do not have to be good at turn and burn dogfighting to be successful on a mission on this type of server. Sure it is an added bonus if you are an accomplished turn fighter, just to get out of a jam here and there, but if you do it right, you never get into a jam and you get the prize anyway!

On Spits vs 109s recently, I completed four missions to a target area in an early Stuka, unescorted, and got home safe, using smart tactics. Another guy in a Stuka that flew in a straight line to the target area at an alt where he was easily spotted got shot down on his first mission. Then he whined about it, saying it was the fault of the guys on his team in fighters that did not cover him!

On another mission I shot down two late-model Spits by spotting them against some clouds, diving on them, hitting them and then zooming back to alt. They never had a chance. It takes just as much skill and work to set up and position yourself for a successful one-pass zoom attack as anything you will do in this sim, but the success rate for you will be higher, and it will be easier on your nerves than a drawn-out turn fight.

Sometimes the turn fight can be fun for you. If you are in the mood look for it on a proper server for it. If you look for a low alt turn fight on a good full-switch server, it will often begin by someone bouncing you and starting it with an advantage.

So there are some of the basics of flying full-realistic servers. You can read actual tactics used by pilots in WWII and apply them on this type of server. Good Luck!

Jumoschwanz

LeadSpitter_
09-23-2005, 06:36 AM
Just call it full real, as in full realistic settings, hardest difficulty like it has been since day one. Just because some yahoo thinks it should be called fullswitch dont mean everyone has to be a follower and call it that.

FR is a better choice as in full realistic settings since day one. Its the most realistic settings the game offers.

Sturm_Williger
09-23-2005, 06:49 AM
Full Switch is the most DIFFICULT settings the game offers.

Whether or not it is the most realistic is hotly debated (repeatedly) and will never be resolved.

Holycannoli
09-23-2005, 06:50 AM
Full real is still better to play than WW servers with padlock.

I figure I may not have the benefits of icons in the air, but neither does my enemy. And since I don't use padlock, to fly on a server that allows it is just a disadvantage for me.

Maybe I should try hosting a server with my settings http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Nobody has them. UK-dedicated comes close but I think they allow WW and padlock.

rnzoli
09-23-2005, 06:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Holycannoli:
Full real is still better to play than WW servers with padlock.

I figure I may not have the benefits of icons in the air, but neither does my enemy. And since I don't use padlock, to fly on a server that allows it is just a disadvantage for me.

Maybe I should try hosting a server with my settings http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Nobody has them. UK-dedicated comes close but I think they allow WW and padlock. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Go, go, go! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Finally action, not just words!

Come to think of it: how can we search for servers with our desired settings in Hyperlobby?

In UBI.com lobbies, the lobby gives a list of most important switches, and we can sort the list of rooms accordingly. This way, I can sort the rooms e.g., by whether the cockpit is locked or not locked, and only look for rooms that fit my basic preferences.

But in HL, I have to move the mouse over each server to know the settings...and that's a lot and takes a lot of time...and the list changes frequently....

Did I overlook the same 'difficulty search' functionality in HL somehow, or it does not exist at all?

JtD
09-23-2005, 07:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Badsight.:
but i have to qualify this by saying i believe full switch requires the biggest knowledge+skill combination
.
.
.
lots of full real players dont like their attack to be avoided , not when they carefully set up a good safe kill pass , to these types of people , anything that helps with bounce avoidence is bad </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hm, so shooting down an unsuspecting victim is essentially what you call the peak of skill&knowledge?

rnzoli
09-23-2005, 08:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Badsight.:
but i have to qualify this by saying i believe full switch requires the biggest knowledge+skill combination
.
.
.
lots of full real players dont like their attack to be avoided , not when they carefully set up a good safe kill pass , to these types of people , anything that helps with bounce avoidence is bad </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hm, so shooting down an unsuspecting victim is essentially what you call the peak of skill&knowledge? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Preparing for any surprise attack takes skill and knowledge. Shooting at the target is just the final moment.

Moreover, you can't really call anyone cruising in the combat zone, with armed guns and the intention to kill, an 'unsuspecting victim'. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

TacticalYak3
09-23-2005, 08:50 AM
The real question is why do folks on either side of this issue feel compelled to argue endlessly about their preferred settings? If one enjoys the game at whatever level than that's really all that is important to them.

Only when one wants to enjoy further challenge that these difficult settings offer, or perhaps wishes to participate in popular online wars, join a certain squad, or jump into a particular online server, then they are going to have to learn the game at this level.

By the way some very good guidelines have been posted on flying without icons. Good advice mate.

I posted my settings earlier in this thread when hosting my squad-based campaigns using DCG. They also include the speedbar and navigation map with custom icons (2 km black for friendly names and plane type only).

This is primarily for the following reasons:

(a) There are more AI pilots involved in our campaign missions then human players, and AI always knows who's who at any distance.

(b) We usually play different theatres each week, meaning plane sets and maps are always changing from all three theatres. This would make it a real challenge (but not impossible of course) for folks, especially new to the game, to really enjoy the sessions if these helps were not offered. This is especially true for some of our members with poorer displays and older eyes late in the evening.

(c) Finally, and perhaps most important to the group, these gaming helps assist us to more fully concentrate on achieving not only the mission objectives, but in allowing us to develop better team tactics and full coordination.

Now, saying all this I do immediately concur that without icons the immersion level increases and the skills needed to get your kills, especially when BnZ, goes way up.

I am presently enjoying an offline campaign, €œWhen Tigers Could Fly€ with no icons. I have played many other stock/custom campaigns over the years with and without icons, as well as some limited exposure to online virtual wars.

I respect the virtual pilot who enjoys no assistance at all. Why I don€t play the game at these settings presently is because I enjoy my current settings enough not to bother with these harder ones, not because I don€t readily agree that they are more challenging and immersive.

That€s why the person who uses externals and no-cockpit view doesn€t change either, and never will until they wish to seek a greater challenge with the game. Certainly the arguments or outright bashing by others isn€t incentive for them to change anytime soon. It must be a personal decision for increased challenge.

Isn't it odd in other gaming, such as first person shooters like Battlefield 2 or Call of Duty, no one debates about the use of icons? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Regards,
TS!

JtD
09-23-2005, 10:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
Preparing for any surprise attack takes skill and knowledge. Shooting at the target is just the final moment.

Moreover, you can't really call anyone cruising in the combat zone, with armed guns and the intention to kill, an 'unsuspecting victim'. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, but wouldn't it show even more skill&knowledge to bounce a suspecting victim, i.e. having externals on (which is the biggest spoiler)?

TgD Thunderbolt56
09-23-2005, 11:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
Well, but wouldn't it show even more skill&knowledge to bounce a suspecting victim, i.e. having externals on (which is the biggest spoiler)? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


hmmm...not for me. While I see your point, I fly this sim for myriad vicarious reasons that things like WW view, padlock, map icons, unlimited ammo etc,...simply dilute my enjoyment.

But that's just me.



TB

albundy777
09-23-2005, 12:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RAF238thKnight:
One thing to always remember everything that an honest simer would consider a useful tool and to help correctly, can be miss used by the GAMER. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>You know, gamers hate CHEATERS too. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

rnzoli
09-23-2005, 01:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
Well, but wouldn't it show even more skill&knowledge to bounce a suspecting victim, i.e. having externals on (which is the biggest spoiler)? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, because it takes 10-15 minutes to set up a surprise attack (altitude, position etc.), and it can be thwarted with very little effort using the viewing aids.

Without the viewing aids, roughly the same effort is needed for the attack as well as defense (looking around constantly).

But as previous posters mentioned: whatever you like. Thanks God, Oleg and his team gave use those switches. Let's stop arguing and start playing - with whatever setting we like.

Badsight.
09-23-2005, 05:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
Hm, so shooting down an unsuspecting victim is essentially what you call the peak of skill&knowledge? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>DFing when you can lose sight of your Bandit requires more skill than having constant visual contact

bounce avoidence when you have 3KM lock warning isnt what i would call "most skill required"

RAF238thKnight
09-24-2005, 05:04 AM
Jumo,

Great post been the bandit many a time in your cross and lost a wing LOL. Anyway I guess the goal in my post is to advance the communities over all skill and what we will see in BoB I hope.

HOPE:
If one sets to full realistic settings in BoB:
1. Proper engine start
2. Correct torque
3. The best Flight dynamics Oleg can offer us at the games release(his best collected data and stop listening to either side in the whine and cheese room).
4. Atmosphere changes with weather if possible(Active Skiies 2005 FS 2004 and CFS 2 compatable)

These are just a few things that I would like to see in a full realistic settings. MAKE IT HARD so we simmers can learn.

I always thought about settings as a way for begginers to start and graduate to tougher setting. This takes time some say, but only if this is your first sim and the majority of us who are on here by no means is this our first.

1. Falcon for the Amiga: age 16 could not even land the darn thing.
2. cfs: First introduction to online dogfighting and became an ADDICTED JUNKY LOL.
3. cfs 2: First environment where I could add things to get more enjoyment NDB, Radio direction hopping from base to base. First intro into Full Real flying with Club 1% and the dread Reality X file(go over 7.5 Gs and you pop like a zit).
4. cfs 3: High hopes and buys il2FB LOL.
5. il2FB/Aces/PF: Best thing on the market to date for WWII Flight Simulation.

Just test those nerves in FR and see if ya can make it there and back home in one piece.

Knight

Xiolablu3
09-24-2005, 06:52 AM
UK dedicated 1 is the best Server I have been on. It has targets, historical Planesets, medium settings etc.

Also great admins and flyers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


As for the debate about 'full real' settings , how can it be 'realistic' if I cant even look over the side of the plane to see where the runway is??!?

That was the first thing I had to do when I entered a full real server and couldnt help thinking, 'full real? My ar*se'


Remember this is a computer game, like Space invaders and Pac Man, you are supposed to be enjoying yourself while playing it? If you take it seriously and believe that you are a real hotshot pilot then the joke is on you.

Holycannoli
09-25-2005, 11:04 AM
I also enjoy UK-Dedicated a lot. But of course, it's settings aren't my ideal settings. I haven't been on for a while, but I remember there was WW view and padlock? (not that I ever use padlock but I assume there is). If only they had cockpit only and no padlock...fantastic server otherwise. Was one of my favorites when I was still new to this sim.

Unfortunately for me now, WW view is as close to cheating as you can get without actually cheating. So I fly on UK-Dedicated when I want a more arcade-style game.

I also remember there was a debate about getting rid of WW and that they decided to keep it?

Xiolablu3
09-25-2005, 01:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Holycannoli:
I also enjoy UK-Dedicated a lot. But of course, it's settings aren't my ideal settings. I haven't been on for a while, but I remember there was WW view and padlock? (not that I ever use padlock but I assume there is). If only they had cockpit only and no padlock...fantastic server otherwise. Was one of my favorites when I was still new to this sim.

Unfortunately for me now, WW view is as close to cheating as you can get without actually cheating. So I fly on UK-Dedicated when I want a more arcade-style game.

I also remember there was a debate about getting rid of WW and that they decided to keep it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But this is Warclouds you are describing, why not fly there if these are the settings you want?

Tachyon1000
09-25-2005, 04:31 PM
To original poster:

Here's your solution to leveling the TrackIR playing field.

http://www.mousevision.com/game/newView.htm

20 bucks and a web cam = TrackIR equivalent

As to server settings, I live with what is available. I think if you can get some TrackIR equivalent, you'd be willing to live with most of the rest.

I fly with a TIR I, which I hear is quite inferior to TIR III, and a 15 inch monitor and I am online all the time on WarClouds (Full Real lite). Perhaps everyone has me over a barrel with 19 inch monitor and slamming graphics card, but not alot I can do about that, so I don't think about it. I just fly.