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View Full Version : Commentary on light attack spamming at the low skill level bracket.



Temdee.
10-22-2018, 08:46 AM
Hey there. So, a week ago my friends and I decided to give this game a go. We typically play Siege, but I hit diamond very early in the season and wanted to test myself. To put my skill level into perspective, I haven't used a controller in ten years, have never played a multiplayer genre outside of shooters, and have never played a fighting game. My friends are of comparable skill level.

We've all been having a blast with the game until we face an Orochi. At our skill level there's simply no counter, the attacks come out too fast for developing players who already struggle to parry as is. We learn nothing about the game mechanics, and the lower levels of play are over saturated with the character because the pay off is so great for a mechanically simple character. I'm aware a game shouldn't be balanced around the low skill level tier, but one character shouldn't be so dominant at any tier, even if it may be the bottom.

To put it in perspective, here are my stats across the three characters I've played. My win rate with Orochi is double my other two characters.

https://imgur.com/a/RTi8tTq

Unfortunately it seems the trend of ultra fast character attacks seems to be further realized in the dlc ops. I'm aware most of you will be so much better at the game than myself or my friends and will just say "parry it, punish it", but just the act of parrying is mechanically difficult for new players, and if my friends are any indicator, light spam mechanics negatively affect the retention rate of the game since new players will just quit in frustration.

I also don't want this to sound like I'm asking for the game to be made simpler. It's great that a guy can have a fast attack, but does he really need the capability to spam them repeatedly? It's easy to do, difficult to counter, and unfun to play against.

Siegfried-Z
10-22-2018, 09:09 AM
I'm rep 126 and still Roch is a frustrating char.

400ms lights should not exist on console. That's a pain. But once yu use to, you can sometimes handle it.. sometimes ^^

Now nuxia has the same annoying lights chain.. plus trap.

Temdee.
10-22-2018, 09:11 AM
I'm rep 126 and still Roch is a frustrating char.

400ms lights should not exist on console. That's a pain. But once yu use to, you can sometimes handle it.. sometimes ^^

Now nuxia has the same annoying lights chain.. plus trap.

I'm sure it's even worse at a lower frame rate but we're on Pc. So it should be even easier, but it's still very difficult.

Siegfried-Z
10-22-2018, 09:22 AM
Imagine with 30fps and no controller ;)

Blitzwarrior771
10-22-2018, 10:33 AM
I'm rep 126 and still Roch is a frustrating char.

400ms lights should not exist on console. That's a pain. But once yu use to, you can sometimes handle it.. sometimes ^^

Now nuxia has the same annoying lights chain.. plus trap.
You say sometimes ? What about auto block ? How come some players block everything ?
For me this is more frustrating . Aramusha is still op and orochi just try aramusha bot in practice arena lvl 3 .

Siegfried-Z
10-22-2018, 12:52 PM
You say sometimes ? What about auto block ? How come some players block everything ?
For me this is more frustrating . Aramusha is still op and orochi just try aramusha bot in practice arena lvl 3 .

I don't care about auto block. I'm not there to talk about how to handle with cheaters, but how to handle with human reaction time to a 400ms moove.

THE_MAD_KlNG
10-22-2018, 01:57 PM
You say sometimes ? What about auto block ? How come some players block everything ?
For me this is more frustrating . Aramusha is still op and orochi just try aramusha bot in practice arena lvl 3 .

All bots at lvl 3 are hard to fight against... they perry every move.

Roseguard_Cpt
10-22-2018, 06:07 PM
I wish that they would give characters more flushed out kits. Because if they did, there would be no need for 400ms lights. Take a look at Shaman, 500ms Lights, but still one of the best characters in the game. She has options upon options to allow her to mixup, so she doesn't need lights alone to carry. Nuxia however has a cool mechanic, but because it can be so easily countered her only other option is lights, and so they're all 400ms to help "balance" as opposed to giving her other options

Knight_Raime
10-22-2018, 08:18 PM
I wish that they would give characters more flushed out kits. Because if they did, there would be no need for 400ms lights. Take a look at Shaman, 500ms Lights, but still one of the best characters in the game. She has options upon options to allow her to mixup, so she doesn't need lights alone to carry. Nuxia however has a cool mechanic, but because it can be so easily countered her only other option is lights, and so they're all 400ms to help "balance" as opposed to giving her other options

Shaman at high level play amounts to flickering her forward bash indicator to make it not reactable, doing her side dodge attack on the regular to whiff punish, and using your heavy soft feint into bleed. her basic lights are almost never used. her forward dodge heavy is never used. Her zone is frequently used along side her soft feint heavy into bleed because both give her relative easy access to bleed. And her zone can be used off of parry.

Her mix up options are not amazing in high tier. 400ms lights are not bad to have. Because fighting games require a healthy dose of reactionary play and plays based on reads. 400ms attacks serve as a basic read tool for players who are not as amazing at the game. Removing them would be a mistake. Kit design should continue to grow. But the devs still need to look into defense. As it's still too strong for how easy it is to do.

Until defense is addressed we're going to have absurd things be the dominiate moves.

DefiledDragon
10-22-2018, 09:20 PM
Shaman at high level play amounts to flickering her forward bash indicator to make it not reactable, doing her side dodge attack on the regular to whiff punish, and using your heavy soft feint into bleed. her basic lights are almost never used. her forward dodge heavy is never used. Her zone is frequently used along side her soft feint heavy into bleed because both give her relative easy access to bleed. And her zone can be used off of parry.

Her mix up options are not amazing in high tier. 400ms lights are not bad to have. Because fighting games require a healthy dose of reactionary play and plays based on reads. 400ms attacks serve as a basic read tool for players who are not as amazing at the game. Removing them would be a mistake. Kit design should continue to grow. But the devs still need to look into defense. As it's still too strong for how easy it is to do.

Until defense is addressed we're going to have absurd things be the dominiate moves.

That's the real issue isn't it. Defence. This is why other fighting games have throws. They can be countered, but you have to be really good to counter them. This is where For Honor really falls flat. Everything can be countered on reaction. The real issue with the mechanics is that when the designers add things to counter the defensive mechanics they do it in the wrong way. Instead of giving characters a one time, situational, moderate damage move like a throw, they give them something they can spam incessantly and it ruins the experience and turns characters into, well, Conqueror. The mechanics need a rework. With the way the game works now I don't think they will ever achieve the sweet spot of viability, variety and fun.

The mechanics of defending need to change drastically imo. A very short lived reflex guard for everyone would be something worth trying. Allowing characters to continue light strings when blocked would also be worthwhile. If they adopted those mechanics, the rest would just fall into place and all the atrocious bash spam and unblockables/soft feints could be removed or reworked to make the game more interesting and far less cheesy. If defending was a difficult skill to master from the get go, people would accept it and practice until they could do it well instead of feeling like they've been cheesed to death by bash spam.

The game is a fascinating concept and has been beautifully executed artistically, but the mechanical implementation is a disaster in my opinion.

Knight_Raime
10-22-2018, 10:34 PM
That's the real issue isn't it. Defence. This is why other fighting games have throws. They can be countered, but you have to be really good to counter them. This is where For Honor really falls flat. Everything can be countered on reaction. The real issue with the mechanics is that when the designers add things to counter the defensive mechanics they do it in the wrong way. Instead of giving characters a one time, situational, moderate damage move like a throw, they give them something they can spam incessantly and it ruins the experience and turns characters into, well, Conqueror. The mechanics need a rework. With the way the game works now I don't think they will ever achieve the sweet spot of viability, variety and fun.

The mechanics of defending need to change drastically imo. A very short lived reflex guard for everyone would be something worth trying. Allowing characters to continue light strings when blocked would also be worthwhile. If they adopted those mechanics, the rest would just fall into place and all the atrocious bash spam and unblockables/soft feints could be removed or reworked to make the game more interesting and far less cheesy. If defending was a difficult skill to master from the get go, people would accept it and practice until they could do it well instead of feeling like they've been cheesed to death by bash spam.

The game is a fascinating concept and has been beautifully executed artistically, but the mechanical implementation is a disaster in my opinion.

Well technically speaking FH's throw is guard break.
But I get what you mean. I don't think a traditional throw would work in fh's case.
Yeah imo I want these main things. then we could see a tone down of "S P E E D."

~Every hero gets a reflex guard sans shield heros. Current heros that are not shield heros would get the decay rate of current assassins. and assassins would get the decay rate of shinobi.
~varied ms increments. That way telegraphing would be more important and people would have to learn the speeds of a hero rather than 5-6 speeds for the whole game.
~all opening attacks (including chain starters from a bash) have a superior start up property. (already exists in the game) meaning blocking an opening attack will never reset the fight to neutral.
~increase to stamina pools and health pools.
~let people continue to attack even after whiffs. That way it's not "I dodge one thing. I get punish. reset to neutral."
~Parries now cost stamina.
~increase to chip damage on heavies and add chip damage to lights.
~bashes no longer damage stamina during OOS. only slightly halt it.

DefiledDragon
10-23-2018, 04:05 PM
Well technically speaking FH's throw is guard break.
But I get what you mean. I don't think a traditional throw would work in fh's case.
Yeah imo I want these main things. then we could see a tone down of "S P E E D."

~Every hero gets a reflex guard sans shield heros. Current heros that are not shield heros would get the decay rate of current assassins. and assassins would get the decay rate of shinobi.
~varied ms increments. That way telegraphing would be more important and people would have to learn the speeds of a hero rather than 5-6 speeds for the whole game.
~all opening attacks (including chain starters from a bash) have a superior start up property. (already exists in the game) meaning blocking an opening attack will never reset the fight to neutral.
~increase to stamina pools and health pools.
~let people continue to attack even after whiffs. That way it's not "I dodge one thing. I get punish. reset to neutral."
~Parries now cost stamina.
~increase to chip damage on heavies and add chip damage to lights.
~bashes no longer damage stamina during OOS. only slightly halt it.

Yeah I get that the GB is FH throw, but it's way too easily countered, like everything else that isn't a 50/50. The core mechanics make defending too easy and now the designers are scratching their heads, wondering how to negate defence. Giving all the heroes cheese isn't the answer. Making defending harder is the answer, but I don't think they realise it.

Personally I would like to see bashes removed from the game. If they're made useful, ala Warden, Conq etc... they start to define the character and players become overly reliant on them, resulting in constant spamming. They should be more situational (i.e. not spammable from neutral) with a decent reward but they should also be highly punishable on read to discourage spamming. They should also cost a lot more stamina than they do, given that the character is lunging their entire body forward rather than just swinging a weapon. That might make them tolerable, but in all honesty the whole bash mechanic just doesn't sit well with me.

I'm pretty much on board with your other ideas and have suggested similar in other discussions. I would love to see some kind of open test with these mechanics implemented. I'm willing to bet it would be a much better game than what we have now.