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View Full Version : Breach encourages the Deathball



ArmoredChocobo
10-17-2018, 07:28 PM
No surprise there, the newest mode doesn't prevent Deathball strategy, it actually encourages that on Defense.

They have unlimited lives, so they can die as much as they want. They also have very little they need to defend to win a match, save for manning oil pots at the gates. There is NO reason why they can't just run around in a big group and pick off and execute/corpse camp the attacking team.

Attackers can't counter-deathball because it runs counter to the million and one things they HAVE to do or their ram dies from attrition: Stop archers, cap really slow-filling points (even when the whole team is on the point and there's NO minions) that do absolutely nothing for them but everything AGAINST them, escorting the ram, and babysitting the oil pot while the Defense spawns in from literally A FEW FEET AWAY from it.

So bang goes the whole "well they actually have to do objectives so there's no chance there's gonna be deathball!" idea.

It's a longer Dominion. In fact, I think it's worse.

DefiledDragon
10-17-2018, 07:35 PM
I said during the open test that the ticket system for the attackers takes the defenders focus away from destroying the ram to depleting the tickets, thus encouraging the defenders to deathball. Not necessarily all the time, but it happened a lot. The mode is supposed to be objective based and I think that stopping the ram should be the entire focus of the defending team. Removing tickets would make the ram the top priority because ganking the attackers isn't going to stop the slow, steady march of the ram to the gates.

Knight_Raime
10-17-2018, 07:35 PM
afaik if attackers cap archer points defenders can't take those back. Which means those archers can attack the pikeman. Which means less pikeman to fight your pikeman that are defending the ram. Also due to the fact that gear stats are gone and revives only give half health people can't play as aggressively and have to visit heal points. You also have to consider the flag and the cauldron. Flag is useful for defenders because they can use it to reinforce the door. And the caludron does massive damage to the ram. So defenders want to be there to use it. And attackers want to guard that so they can't use it.

There is also the guardian buff. There are reasons for people to spread out. People death ball right now because people have no idea what they're doing with breach. Death balling is surprisingly absent in the streams i'm watching with well known players.

ArmoredChocobo
10-17-2018, 07:38 PM
I said during the open test that the ticket system for the attackers takes the defenders focus away from destroying the ram to depleting the tickets, thus encouraging the defenders to deathball. Not necessarily all the time, but it happened a lot. The mode is supposed to be objective based and I think that stopping the ram should be the entire focus of the defending team. Removing tickets would make the ram the top priority because ganking the attackers isn't going to stop the slow, steady march of the ram to the gates.

I'm not even 100% sure what damages the ram. It's health to slowly drain unless they used the pot on it. I tried firing a Ballista at it to little effect. Minions seem to be able to attack it but I see no progress with my own attacks, even when I try attacking the cage where the drum guy is.

Maybe they added tickets because even Ubi wasn't able to figure out it's own mechanics.



afaik if attackers cap archer points defenders can't take those back. Which means those archers can attack the pikeman. Which means less pikeman to fight your pikeman that are defending the ram. Also due to the fact that gear stats are gone and revives only give half health people can't play as aggressively and have to visit heal points. You also have to consider the flag and the cauldron. Flag is useful for defenders because they can use it to reinforce the door. And the caludron does massive damage to the ram. So defenders want to be there to use it. And attackers want to guard that so they can't use it.

There is also the guardian buff. There are reasons for people to spread out. People death ball right now because people have no idea what they're doing with breach. Death balling is surprisingly absent in the streams i'm watching with well known players.

Archers don't seem to do a very good job at it cuz unless a player is babysitting it, it always seems to be SWARMED with opposing pikemen.

Attackers HAVE to play aggressively because the ram's hp seems to drop indiscriminately to what Defense is doing. It's not something to defend, it feels more like a timer. If you play too slow, you lose due to ram destruction. If you play too fast, you run out of tickets.

Not to mention the flag AND the cauldron are a few steps from the enemy spawn so gl keeping them off that.

As for your streamers, they're either playing in 2 set groups or they have tremendous luck because I played 3 games of breach and it went like this:

1st - Defense: We randomly ran around and the ram died at the 2nd gate.

2nd - Attacker: Faced constant deathballs and ram died at 2nd gate, it was at 3/4 health at the first gate.

3rd - Attacker: Another Defense deathball drained our tickets before the ram got to 2nd gate.

Knight_Raime
10-17-2018, 07:38 PM
I said during the open test that the ticket system for the attackers takes the defenders focus away from destroying the ram to depleting the tickets, thus encouraging the defenders to deathball. Not necessarily all the time, but it happened a lot. The mode is supposed to be objective based and I think that stopping the ram should be the entire focus of the defending team. Removing tickets would make the ram the top priority because ganking the attackers isn't going to stop the slow, steady march of the ram to the gates.

I mean my team almost lost the game because they decided to try and bleed tickets over playing the objective. So I wouldn't say it is an effective strat.
The whole point of the ticket system is to have the attackers lose something. Defenders lose ground as time goes on and they can't get it back. Attackers can some what midigate their loss with revives.

Knight_Raime
10-17-2018, 07:39 PM
I'm not even 100% sure what damages the ram. It's health to slowly drain unless they used the pot on it. I tried firing a Ballista at it to little effect. Minions seem to be able to attack it but I see no progress with my own attacks, even when I try attacking the cage where the drum guy is.

Maybe they added tickets because even Ubi wasn't able to figure out it's own mechanics.

Minions and the caludron damage the ram. If players could damage the ram directly it would be even easier for the defenders to win.

ArmoredChocobo
10-17-2018, 07:52 PM
I mean my team almost lost the game because they decided to try and bleed tickets over playing the objective. So I wouldn't say it is an effective strat.
The whole point of the ticket system is to have the attackers lose something. Defenders lose ground as time goes on and they can't get it back. Attackers can some what midigate their loss with revives.


That's not encouraging, it's an uphill battle for Attackers where everything is in Defense's favor.

Attackers:

Cap slow-filling points or Archers will whittle away at your ram (The archers a captured point spawns in return aren't exactly a minion deterrent)
Clear the ram of minions to keep damage down
Escort the ram or it moves extremely slow or even stops
Deal with enemy players
Revive players to mitigate tickets, get interrupted by constantly spawning minions
Run away from battles to heal
Camp the pot and flag near enemy spawn

Defenders:

Make sure pot/minions are hitting the ram
Buff the Gate
Kill and execute enemy players to bring down the count


Seems VERY one-sided.

EIGHTYYARDS NYC
10-17-2018, 08:05 PM
To me its fair on all parts. If you have part of your team at objective 1, some clearing the ram then there is no death ball. If they decide to all attack one area it leaves the other wide open. Once the attacking team gets its grip on a few positions its hard as hell to damage the ram. The only thing the defenders have in their favor is the spawns. The rest of the time theyre constantly losing ground.

EIGHTYYARDS NYC
10-17-2018, 08:07 PM
That's not encouraging, it's an uphill battle for Attackers where everything is in Defense's favor.

Attackers:

Cap slow-filling points or Archers will whittle away at your ram (The archers a captured point spawns in return aren't exactly a minion deterrent)
Clear the ram of minions to keep damage down
Escort the ram or it moves extremely slow or even stops
Deal with enemy players
Revive players to mitigate tickets, get interrupted by constantly spawning minions
Run away from battles to heal
Camp the pot and flag near enemy spawn

Defenders:

Make sure pot/minions are hitting the ram
Buff the Gate
Kill and execute enemy players to bring down the count


Seems VERY one-sided.

You seem to leave out that defenders need to run away to heal as well. Aslo those slow filling pints, yeah, see the defenders have to defend them.

Knight_Raime
10-17-2018, 08:07 PM
That's not encouraging, it's an uphill battle for Attackers where everything is in Defense's favor.

Attackers:

Cap slow-filling points or Archers will whittle away at your ram (The archers a captured point spawns in return aren't exactly a minion deterrent)
Clear the ram of minions to keep damage down
Escort the ram or it moves extremely slow or even stops
Deal with enemy players
Revive players to mitigate tickets, get interrupted by constantly spawning minions
Run away from battles to heal
Camp the pot and flag near enemy spawn

Defenders:

Make sure pot/minions are hitting the ram
Buff the Gate
Kill and execute enemy players to bring down the count


Seems VERY one-sided.

My team almost lost because we kept throwing people out and they would die/get executed. We didn't capitalize on revives and we almost lost. Yes the defenders job is more simple. But you're playing an aysmetrical game mode. Things are inherently imbalanced. Defenders need to be careful with their lives too. It's just a bit less pressure because lives are not finite.

Knight_Raime
10-17-2018, 08:11 PM
I'm not even 100% sure what damages the ram. It's health to slowly drain unless they used the pot on it. I tried firing a Ballista at it to little effect. Minions seem to be able to attack it but I see no progress with my own attacks, even when I try attacking the cage where the drum guy is.

Maybe they added tickets because even Ubi wasn't able to figure out it's own mechanics.




Archers don't seem to do a very good job at it cuz unless a player is babysitting it, it always seems to be SWARMED with opposing pikemen.

Attackers HAVE to play aggressively because the ram's hp seems to drop indiscriminately to what Defense is doing. It's not something to defend, it feels more like a timer. If you play too slow, you lose due to ram destruction. If you play too fast, you run out of tickets.

Not to mention the flag AND the cauldron are a few steps from the enemy spawn so gl keeping them off that.

As for your streamers, they're either playing in 2 set groups or they have tremendous luck because I played 3 games of breach and it went like this:

1st - Defense: We randomly ran around and the ram died at the 2nd gate.

2nd - Attacker: Faced constant deathballs and ram died at 2nd gate, it was at 3/4 health at the first gate.

3rd - Attacker: Another Defense deathball drained our tickets before the ram got to 2nd gate.

well yeah. Just as defenders will want to babysit their archer points so they don't have to sit so hard on pikeman guys. Nothing is a set and forget action. it's all about what you care about the most. We lost our caludron twice. It was entirely because my team didn't keep a good control on the enemy teams pikeman. So we got swarmed there twice. And we personally only got the flag once. Because everytime we went there a pk and nuxia were teaming people.

I think breach is a nightmare for solo ques. But two teams fighting eachother? half of what you're complaining about isn't even the same experience.

DefiledDragon
10-17-2018, 08:19 PM
I'm not even 100% sure what damages the ram. It's health to slowly drain unless they used the pot on it. I tried firing a Ballista at it to little effect. Minions seem to be able to attack it but I see no progress with my own attacks, even when I try attacking the cage where the drum guy is.

Maybe they added tickets because even Ubi wasn't able to figure out it's own mechanics.

The following things damage the ram.

Defending minions.
Archers on the archer points if not captured by the attackers.
Cauldron.

As defenders, holding the first archer point can lead to the ram taking some pretty heavy damage by the time it even reaches the first gate. I had one game where we held the archer points and the ram was destroyed about 2/3 of the way to the second gate through the combination of minion damage, cauldron on the 1st gate and archers, but it was mostly the archers and minions that did it.

I'm not saying the defenders don't have options other than deathballing, I just don't understand why they chose to allocate tickets to the attacking team in the first two phases. Sure, infinite respawns would all but guarantee death for the commander should they breach the first two gates, so allocate tickets on the final phase. I feel the fact that ganking the attackers during the first phase is a viable tactic takes focus away from the objectives, i.e. the archer points, the guardian and the ram.

I enjoy the mode, I think it's a great concept but I also think that through the combination of omnipresent minions that interrupt executions and revives, the length of the game mode, the fact that it feels weighted in favour of the defending team and deathbaling is still a viable strategy for defenders, people will just go back to regular dominion. I really don't want that to happen.

EIGHTYYARDS NYC
10-17-2018, 08:29 PM
The following things damage the ram.

Defending minions.
Archers on the archer points if not captured by the attackers.
Cauldron.

As defenders, holding the first archer point can lead to the ram taking some pretty heavy damage by the time it even reaches the first gate. I had one game where we held the archer points and the ram was destroyed about 2/3 of the way to the second gate through the combination of minion damage, cauldron on the 1st gate and archers, but it was mostly the archers and minions that did it.

I'm not saying the defenders don't have options other than deathballing, I just don't understand why they chose to allocate tickets to the attacking team in the first two phases. Sure, infinite respawns would all but guarantee death for the commander should they breach the first two gates, so allocate tickets on the final phase. I feel the fact that ganking the attackers during the first phase is a viable tactic takes focus away from the objectives, i.e. the archer points, the guardian and the ram.

I enjoy the mode, I think it's a great concept but I also think that through the combination of omnipresent minions that interrupt executions and revives, the length of the game mode, the fact that it feels weighted in favour of the defending team and deathbaling is still a viable strategy for defenders, people will just go back to regular dominion. I really don't want that to happen.

I couldn't disagree more. Every team isnt supposed to reach the end. Tickets ensure that. The defenders have more options, you stated one. Defend the points. I feel as if people dont truly understand the game mode. Not you per say but if people dont see what to defend other than the clearing the gate and fighting in the middle, well they are For Honoring wrong.

DefiledDragon
10-17-2018, 09:13 PM
I couldn't disagree more. Every team isnt supposed to reach the end. Tickets ensure that. The defenders have more options, you stated one. Defend the points. I feel as if people dont truly understand the game mode. Not you per say but if people dont see what to defend other than the clearing the gate and fighting in the middle, well they are For Honoring wrong.

Except that tickets don't ensure that because many teams do reach the end. Destruction of the ram has been the most common reason for the attacking team to lose in the first two phases in the games I've played, not exhausting respawns. Maybe you're experience has been different.