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msalama
10-26-2005, 01:38 PM
OK then...

I've jumped into the online world recently w/ my trusty Havoc, and have of course gotten my hind end promptly chewn to shreds as well http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif It usually goes like this:

1) MSa takes off.
2) MSa flies to target.
3) MSa bombs the target, and sometimes even manages to DESTROY a thing or two http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
4) MSa is pwnd http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Now there's nothing (much) I fail to understand about that shot-down part there. U fXXX up, U get fXXXed. Very simple. But it _would_ probably help if you were able to defend yourself!

Which brings us to the crux of the matter here, namely: how the heXX do you _DO_ that in an A-20?

I've set up some QMB training missions where I've compared the Havoc and the Mitchell, and what I've found out so far disturbs me deeply. The B-25 is quite easy to defend with its heavy-ish armament and spiffy rear turret, but the A-20 is a different story altogether. Why, I seemingly can't hit _anything_ with its turret armament at ALL, apart from my own rudder every now and then http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

And thus the question again: how the heXX do you defend yourself in an A-20? Any tips, opinions, (conspiracy) theories and/or whatever are most welcome!

msalama
10-26-2005, 01:38 PM
OK then...

I've jumped into the online world recently w/ my trusty Havoc, and have of course gotten my hind end promptly chewn to shreds as well http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif It usually goes like this:

1) MSa takes off.
2) MSa flies to target.
3) MSa bombs the target, and sometimes even manages to DESTROY a thing or two http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
4) MSa is pwnd http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Now there's nothing (much) I fail to understand about that shot-down part there. U fXXX up, U get fXXXed. Very simple. But it _would_ probably help if you were able to defend yourself!

Which brings us to the crux of the matter here, namely: how the heXX do you _DO_ that in an A-20?

I've set up some QMB training missions where I've compared the Havoc and the Mitchell, and what I've found out so far disturbs me deeply. The B-25 is quite easy to defend with its heavy-ish armament and spiffy rear turret, but the A-20 is a different story altogether. Why, I seemingly can't hit _anything_ with its turret armament at ALL, apart from my own rudder every now and then http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

And thus the question again: how the heXX do you defend yourself in an A-20? Any tips, opinions, (conspiracy) theories and/or whatever are most welcome!

VW-IceFire
10-26-2005, 01:58 PM
I love the A-20G for online bombing and I'm very disappointed not to have seen it on WarClouds the last few times.

As far as defense goes there are a few things you have to keep in mind. One is that your smaller ans faster and more manuverable. Secondly that you can't take as many hits and you need to use what guns you have effectively.

I can't tell you what to do to aim...that is more of an instinct thing. Practice makes you better...but I always aim for the engine.

But here's my trick. The first thing is to avoid being shot at but sometimes thats not possible. The second is to try and bring support...so some fighter escort is a good idea. When that fails you need to defend yourself. When a bandit closes on you, bank the plane on an angle to give you the best possible shot. Usually with a dive or a climb.

So if he's below you and to the starboard side, roll to the right and pull up and over a bit. This gives you an angle down onto the target with the twin .50cal and you can blast him. As he goes shooting past shoot and then reverse you climb and angle to a dive and opposite angle and keep up the fire.

If he's a good aim your still probably done for if he's got MK108s and all that...but you can do your best.

Avoid being seen and shot at in the first place http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

73GIAP_Milan
10-26-2005, 02:02 PM
Usually the AI beats me in depleting all my ammo while shooting the wrong way or it does not shoot at all - which is very strange.
And if i try shooting myself from the turret while flying as low as i can, it's a hell of a job. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Flying with 1 hand, using the mouse to aim and fire from a turret and keep flying straight while avoiding hills, trees etc while looking to the rear of my plane or in any other direction http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif no wonder i get shot up that much.

This does not only happen on the A20 - which is indeed hard to shoot from but about any bomber with player operated turrets.

NorrisMcWhirter
10-26-2005, 02:04 PM
Trying to fly and operate turrets at the same time only ends up in misery for me so, in my experience, you're in trouble if you get detected.


You're not faster or more manuverable than attacking fighters plus you have a relatively weak aircraft (I think the He111 is more robust).

Your only defence is to make yourself difficult to hit and to try to make it so your AI gunners have as much time on your assailant as possible.

You can, of course, help yourself by diving onto your targets at high speed then zooming to friendlies.

Or, better still, just take a P38 which has a decent loadout but can get you out of trouble as fast as you get into it.

Ta,
Norris

msalama
10-26-2005, 02:48 PM
Gents,

Many thanks for this valuable information. I will peruse it more closely tomorrow, but now it's time to call it a night...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I can't tell you what to do to aim...that is more of an instinct thing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now _this_ is the funny part with Havoc's turret armament _exactly_. I'm usually able to adapt to whatever weaponry I've got without any excessive problems - well, able within my own not-so-stellar capabilities of course - but the turret on that beauty clearly presents a HUGE challenge to me! I just don't have the knack for it, it seems http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

But of course, one practices and (hopefully) learns too. But still, what a WEIRD weapon that is - those B-25 guns are _much_ easier in comparison...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Avoid being seen and shot at in the first place http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now this of course is the rule Nr. 1 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif And I _have_ actually managed in sneaking my way out a couple of times, too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But gents, thanks again for sharing. Most excellent - S!

Arm_slinger
10-26-2005, 04:54 PM
For what it's worth you need to account for the bullet drop in that turret. Even when things are right in close, i aim for the tail, and usuall get pilot kills or knackered engines.

I recommend putting some ground targets up in an FMB, stay on the ground, and practive your gunnery that way http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

p1ngu666
10-26-2005, 05:13 PM
irl, the turret would cut out each 50cal so u couldnt shoot off your own rudder, currently the a20 is little more than a deathtrap really...

truth is, we need a mossie

Arm_slinger
10-26-2005, 05:37 PM
The amount of times I've wrecked my tail, or a coop gunner has.....

Mildly annoying really lol

msalama
10-27-2005, 12:00 AM
Gentlemen,

Most excellent tips all around. Thank you.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Or, better still, just take a P38 which has a decent loadout but can get you out of trouble as fast as you get into it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But ehh... y'see, I don't really WANT to http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Dunno if it's the masochist in me, but I still like my planes hard, slow & heavy (well comparatively speaking of course - no real flyable heavies in this game as we know). And the Havoc is just a beauty too - pleases my eye more than anything at the moment http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And its cockpit is VERY well laid out too IMHO! Even the mag compass is readable without any ruddy speedbars or anything...

But TBH, my one-man grand jury is still somewhat out on the AC type, and the B-25 Mitchell _is_ admittedly a strong competitor here because of its strong defensive armament and effective rear turret. But I'll practice and compare, and we'll see...

But as all you gents pointed out, the recipe for continued survival online is as follows (unless I've misunderstood something):

1) Stay obscured.
2) Call for assistance if spotted.
3) Use your best flying abilities to avoid being shot down.
4) As a last resort, use your guns to defend yourself.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Your only defence is to make yourself difficult to hit and to try to make it so your AI gunners have as much time on your assailant as possible. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This would suit me brilliantly, because I've always been a much better pilot than a gunner anyway!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You can, of course, help yourself by diving onto your targets at high speed then zooming to friendlies. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, I've tried this a couple of times as well, and I've also noticed that a Stuka-ish dive bombing tactic actually works with this bird, provided that your altitude is 10000ft AGL or more, AND you remember to put your engines to idle before diving so that you don't overspeed the AC.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Flying with 1 hand, using the mouse to aim and fire from a turret and keep flying straight while avoiding hills, trees etc while looking to the rear of my plane or in any other direction http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, you need some HC skills - or alternatively a greatly diminished instinct of self-preservation - to actually try and do it that way, now don't you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Cool & crazy stuff, be sure http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">For what it's worth you need to account for the bullet drop in that turret. Even when things are right in close, i aim for the tail, and usuall get pilot kills or knackered engines. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now this might be much more important than what I've thought so far! It's just that it IS a bit funny, being all bass-ackwards and everything http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif No, but it does seem to be more important here than, say, in a Mitchell. Thanks for the tip!

---------------------

And to conclude: great information here, for which I salute you gentlemen. S!

Monson74
10-27-2005, 10:20 AM
I fly as low as possible & save a bomb or two for the guy chasing me - I use 2.5 sec delay & often hurt those who wants to hurt me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

PBNA-Boosher
10-27-2005, 11:00 AM
The A-20G is an attack aircraft. Therefore it will be maneuvering more often then say, and A-20C level bomber. The guns on the A-20 are meant to be fired in coordination with the pilot's movements. In a level bomber, the pilot may adjust his position in the formation, adjusting the yaw, for example, to give his gunners a better field of fire. In the A-20 you must do the same, but you have MUCH more freedom to do so than in a level bomber.

The A-20 was called the bomber pilot's fighter aircraft for a good reason. Use it offensively, not defensively.

Deedsundone
10-27-2005, 11:27 AM
climb up to about 1000-1500 meters and loose contol of it,fly off the map bounder and get penalty killed and in the same way being accused for stat-paddling by your pursuer......wait,...that´s Battlefield 2.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Jumoschwanz
10-27-2005, 02:17 PM
One of the funniest tricks you can pull with a bomber, is to get some attackers to follow you into thick clouds. They cannot see to shoot you, but the AI gunners have x-ray eyes and will beat the heck out of them. I did this in an He-111 a few times.

Jumoschwanz

Platypus_1.JaVA
10-27-2005, 02:37 PM
Take a detour!!

If you bomb the enemy base, don't go straight for it but fly around it, attack the enemy in the back and make two or three runs at most and then slip out of the target area the same way you came. The enemy will certainly know you've been there but, by searching for you on the very obvious route (the straight line towards your base) they'll never find you! Do all of this very close to the earth because your are harder to see towards the ground.

Preventing is better then curing I'll always say http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Happy bombing!