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View Full Version : Hey guys... Got some A20 questions...



ROTS_Jason
06-12-2005, 05:53 AM
Hello fellow flyers! I am some what new to this great sim still and I had a few questions about the A20. How was this plane designed to attack? What altitude are you supposed to bomb at and how do you bomb accurately? Also once you dropped your load are you supposed to turn around and start strafing with those guns on the nose? Seems like the plane is too big for that sort of thing to me, and it also seems like too much of a risk to the crew inside. Same thing goes for the B-25, are you supposed to bomb from medium altitude or come in low? Does it change depending on the situation? I love doing ground pounding and I would appreciate any extra information to better improve my targeting.

That€s pretty much all I have to ask for now. Thanks ahead of time to anyone who can give me a few pointers!

(One reason I€m asking about the A20 is because, if your not leading a flight in a single player campaign, the flight leader takes you to a high altitude and just drops and prays€¦ that€s how it looks to me anyway lol)

Thanks again!

ROTS_Jason
06-12-2005, 05:53 AM
Hello fellow flyers! I am some what new to this great sim still and I had a few questions about the A20. How was this plane designed to attack? What altitude are you supposed to bomb at and how do you bomb accurately? Also once you dropped your load are you supposed to turn around and start strafing with those guns on the nose? Seems like the plane is too big for that sort of thing to me, and it also seems like too much of a risk to the crew inside. Same thing goes for the B-25, are you supposed to bomb from medium altitude or come in low? Does it change depending on the situation? I love doing ground pounding and I would appreciate any extra information to better improve my targeting.

That€s pretty much all I have to ask for now. Thanks ahead of time to anyone who can give me a few pointers!

(One reason I€m asking about the A20 is because, if your not leading a flight in a single player campaign, the flight leader takes you to a high altitude and just drops and prays€¦ that€s how it looks to me anyway lol)

Thanks again!

STENKA_69GIAP
06-12-2005, 07:10 AM
Treat it like a twin engine Sturmovick, 1000m altitude then 45? dive in on target with guns blazing, dump bomb at last minute and don't forget to pull out. - Yes ground attack is dangerous.

I don't think it's a true dive bomber that will take 45?+ dives but it works.

B25 is a proper level bomber that worked at Medium-High level.

You can also take off and land on carriers with an A20 - if you've got 4.00 patch watch this

http://perso.club-internet.fr/ptthome/69GIAP/frightening.zip

VW-IceFire
06-12-2005, 07:54 AM
The A-20G that we have sometimes operated as a level bomber in conjunction with clear nosed A-20J's. The clear nosed A-20s would have a bombsight and would signal the entire squadron to drop.

That aside, the A-20G is a strafer like the B-25H that we have. Designed for low level attack runs, skip bombing, strafing, and low angle dive bomb runs. On WarClouds I tend to fly this plane the most (as I'm not a good full switch fighter pilot) and its very capable. Once you know what you're doing...it becomes very manueverable. If you surprise attacking fighters, you can even dogfight and win (with some luck).

Some tips:
- Use short small angled dives on target
- Use the guns in bursts to bring down soft targets
- Set a bomb delay of at least 2 seconds (I use 3)
- Learn the art of skip bombing

Tater-SW-
06-12-2005, 08:00 AM
Like the B-25 strafers used in the SWPA and CBI, the A-20G was a low-level attack plane, as icefire said. In RL, they attacked low enough to come home with palm fronds stuck into the airplane.

Parafrags were dropped from treetop altitude--or lower.

Too bad it is impossible to get AI to use them right, it'd be nice to set up a realistic mission where a squadron comes in line abreast at tree-trimming altitude.

tater

Platypus_1.JaVA
06-12-2005, 08:03 AM
These two bombers where also frequently used for very low level attacks. Targeting airfields, bridges and ships. The a-20 even has a torpedo as load-out. The navalized version of the B-25 (PBJ 1) also could carry torpedo's IIRC.

The forward armament was frequently used on both aircraft to strafe or, to suppress enemy AAA fire. Let's look at an example of a mast-heigth attack on shipping.

A Japanese cargo vessel has been located and is to be sunken to withhold the enemy's vital supplies. A flight of two B-25's is dispatched to do the job. Historically, they would set the bombs to approximate 5 seconds delay but, 3 seconds will do in PF just as fine. They would approach the target vessel at approx 30m/100ft. The ships AAA is probably a more heavy calibre then the aircraft's onboard guns so, they approach whit medium and heavy Japanese AAA firing. Once within range, the B-25's will open fire and aim for the AA guns so, their crew is forced to hide. This will actually work in PF as stated by Oleg himself. At the proper point, the B-25's release their delayed bombs and they bounce over the water, towards the ship. They will collide with the vessel and the timer starts. It is the intention that the bombs must sink under the vessel and explode. The blast of the water is much stronger then the bomb itself. The ship is lifted out of the water, breaks and sinks. Of course there will be some space between the B-25's and they will come from diffrent directions so, they won't get in their way and the enemy AAA has two diffrent angles to cover. Historically, it seemed vital to have a heavy frontal battery of guns. This seemed very effective in suppresing AAA. Later in the war, some B-25J's where modified so that they carried 12X .50" machine guns, all pointed in the forward direction. Twice the firepower of most US fighters...

They could be used as heavy strike bombers.

Dengue.ZA
06-12-2005, 09:15 AM
In real life they'd come in over an airfield in line-abreast at 50 feet with the trigger depressed. Para-frags away and off for home.

Unfortunately there isn't much point to flying like that in IL-2 because there are no troops to kill/terrorise and no runways/taxiways to effectively crater. It also doesn't help that objects can only exist as pristine or destroyed, and that they can't just be rendered unservicable (which is what the level strafers were designed to do).

They rock anyway though. Big old JABO with para-frags to bugger up lines of parked planes. Nice.

Platypus_1.JaVA
06-12-2005, 10:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
Like the B-25 strafers used in the SWPA and CBI, the A-20G was a low-level attack plane, as icefire said. In RL, they attacked low enough to come home with palm fronds stuck into the airplane.

Parafrags were dropped from treetop altitude--or lower.

Too bad it is impossible to get AI to use them right, it'd be nice to set up a realistic mission where a squadron comes in line abreast at tree-trimming altitude.

tater </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is possible, see the mission builder forum for details.

idonno
06-12-2005, 10:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dengue.ZA:
In real life they'd come in over an airfield in line-abreast at 50 feet with the trigger depressed. Para-frags away and off for home.

Unfortunately there isn't much point to flying like that in IL-2 because there are no troops to kill/terrorise and no runways/taxiways to effectively crater. It also doesn't help that objects can only exist as pristine or destroyed, and that they can't just be rendered unservicable (which is what the level strafers were designed to do).

They rock anyway though. Big old JABO with para-frags to bugger up lines of parked planes. Nice. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

One BIG problem with doing those historical treetop raids is that in IL2, unlike in real life, the anti-aircraft gunners live with their fingers on the triggers 24/7. There is no such thing as a surprise attack on a ground target in IL2.

We NEED the same sleep function for ground based ack that we have for ships.

ROTS_Jason
06-12-2005, 04:06 PM
Wow, thanks guys! I learned some interesting things there. Does anyone know about some good campaigns for these bombers? Also, if there is a way to catch the ships sleeping, isn€t there a way to make the ground gunners do the same?

SE_Aetos
06-12-2005, 08:49 PM
I made a movie of one of my A20 attacks on War Clouds. It was a flight of three A20s. If ya would like it, post your email here and I will send it to ya. (in 5MB parts).

SE_Aetos

Tater-SW-
06-12-2005, 09:33 PM
Platypus, I read the mission builder forum (and contribute). I have tried at great lengths, and while I can indeed get the strafers to skip bomb (single plane flights, and you have to mess with a very close waypoint right before the gattack point), it it virtually impossible to have a reproducable line of strafers drop frags. Even when I get a group of them to do it, any changes foul it up---this certainly includes enemy aircraft, etc.

tater

ROTS_Jason
06-12-2005, 11:45 PM
Hey, I would love it SE_Aetos! My email is deltafrost@gmail.com. Thanks again to everyone for all your help.

SE_Aetos
06-13-2005, 04:14 PM
Ok, its in the mail. Hope you enjoy it.

The mission you will view was one of my early organized attacks and learned a lot of what works and what does not. (mostly what does not)

A side note, I only play online, and can't make a case for single player mode.

Mistakes From the Movie.
1. We were not on comms. To be effective, you must have your whole flight on team speak or ventilo.

2. The formation (one A-20 at point, and two A-20s on each flank) must be tight in order for rear guns to cover each other. Our formation was good, but not tight. As you watch, Podo is too far off on the left flank and becomes a target.

3. Once Podo is attacked he breaks formation instead of bringing the 109 back across the guns of Myself and Steel Andre. As a result Podo never makes it to target.

4. The bomb run is good, except SteelAndre breaks off in the wrong direction and our flight is not separated.

5. Upon my forming back up on Steel, he is in trouble, but we do everything right from that point on and beat off the enemy.

Tips:
1. Keep formation very tight. It may be advantages for the more skilled pilots to take up the flanking positions being that they can hang with the lead plane better and a novice.

2. I like to fly on the deck. Your defensive armament is strong on top and the enemy can't attack from below, and also you may avoid detection on the way to target.

3. Lead plane should never fly at %100. %80 is best. Otherwise the flank planes will be unable to keep up. When under attack this only compounds the problem.

4. On bomb run, either have long bomb delays to avoid blowing up your wingmen, or the lead plane on in at %110, second plane %90 and so on to space out the attack. After the attack the lead plane should return on a pre set direction and slow down for the other to catch up.

5. When being attacked from behind, the plane being fired at should jog around a bit. Should also jump to %110 so that it does not fall behind but should not break formation. The other two planes should hold steady so that the AI gunners will be more likely to fire. (this is a guess, I really need to watch more track to study when the AI will take action)

6. When operating with pairs of A-20, the thatch weave is a very good move to use being that the A-20 is a good stable gun platform and has vertical mounted .50s in two cols of 3. In short, when jumped from behind, the plane being shot at goes %110 and banks left. The plane not being shot at goes %80 and banks right. Then at the precise time, both planes reverse directions and the second plane (should be behind the enemy) can get a defection shot on the enemy fighter. At this point, you can rinse and repeat, or drag and bag.

7. Use same bomb load, and fuel settings. Even trim can be cordinated.

8. Important to remember that the A-20 is not a figher-bomber but a light-bomber and should be treated as such. Flying without a wingman and not using wingman tactics will most often only get you killed. (bigest mistake is trying to outturn an enemy fighter, even a 190 can turn inside you with ease)

Well, this is a start. Hope you enjoy some bomb runs, and getting back safe.

SE_Aetos

ROTS_Jason
06-13-2005, 05:44 PM
Hey that was very good! The movie was awesome... Had some great scenes in it and I guess 2 out of 3 bombers arent too bad after all those 109s lol.

Thank you very much for your movie and the above post... Very helpfull!

Cadet_Bobo
06-13-2005, 05:55 PM
mmmmmm skip bombing...really fun

IL2-chuter
06-14-2005, 04:20 AM
[QUOTE]Later in the war, some B-25J's where modified so that they carried 12X .50" machine guns, all pointed in the forward direction. Twice the firepower of most US fighters.../QUOTE]

Yep. Actually, they were made that way. Shortly after they began arriving in the combat zones it was decided that 12 fifties was WAY too much (says something about the fifties) and the sidepacks (four) were ditched, this saved weight and reduced frontal area. Trying to find a sidepack equipped gun nose B-25J photographed near the end of the war is . . . difficult. You can sure see the "tan-lines" where they used to be. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

The strafing B-25C/D's (after Pappy Gunn finished with them) had eight forward guns (and a tailgun, usually), four sidepack and four nose (the belly turret was removed). The parafrags, by the way, could be dropped individually. It would be great if the bombs sequenced along only while you have the button pushed, eh? Multiple passes, WOOHOO. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Also, I believe the games parafrags are HE only, a common RL option (against soft targets) were "wire-wrapped" bombs.


Go to your local library and check out "Warpath Across the Pacific" by Lawrence Hickey (yes - that's an order) OR go to Amazon and check used books. One of the best books I ever bought ($70, 4th ed.)

SE_Aetos
06-14-2005, 04:51 AM
Yes, that is my one complant about the parafrags is that it is all or nothing.

I like to carry the 2x500 + 4x300 pound loadout. Gives me 3 drops to work with. Plus it is all internal to the plane and reduces drag of carring anything on the wings.

SE_Aetos

Tully__
06-14-2005, 06:27 AM
The A-20 is a heavy attack aircraft. It was intended for use in a fashion similar to the IL2, Hs129 and similar ground attack aircraft but with more range and power (and payload?)

charlielima
06-15-2005, 01:04 PM
Solid nose B-25s with fixed 50s and a cannon are B-25Hs. USN USMC flew them also as PBJs. I fiercly want one. CL