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View Full Version : BoB development question: running on Linux - Yes or No ?



starfighter1
11-16-2005, 04:02 AM
hi,
ok this was diskussed in the past some times but after my visit at http://www.linuxworlexpo.de

I guess the future at pc-sims and more games is a part on OS Linux (running OpenGL)

why ?
1) sgi (http://www.sgi.com jumped in this market with new small workstations (Silicon Graphics Prism ) using Redhat and Suse
starting Deskside Level with two CPU(Intel Intanium) and 2 GPU (Ati)
(System Power 750 W max)

up to more as: 2-8/8-16/16-256 CPU's Systems
and Systems with 1-2/2-4/4-8/4-16 GPU'S http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

background: Microsoft future development of new OS and DirectX 10
with no OpenGL conformation fall back http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Conclusion:
in the event Maddox Team is looking for the future of running BoB on new Open GL (2.0)
Linux OS is a must http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
is there any official statement from the developer ?

starfighter1
11-16-2005, 04:02 AM
hi,
ok this was diskussed in the past some times but after my visit at http://www.linuxworlexpo.de

I guess the future at pc-sims and more games is a part on OS Linux (running OpenGL)

why ?
1) sgi (http://www.sgi.com jumped in this market with new small workstations (Silicon Graphics Prism ) using Redhat and Suse
starting Deskside Level with two CPU(Intel Intanium) and 2 GPU (Ati)
(System Power 750 W max)

up to more as: 2-8/8-16/16-256 CPU's Systems
and Systems with 1-2/2-4/4-8/4-16 GPU'S http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

background: Microsoft future development of new OS and DirectX 10
with no OpenGL conformation fall back http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Conclusion:
in the event Maddox Team is looking for the future of running BoB on new Open GL (2.0)
Linux OS is a must http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
is there any official statement from the developer ?

starfighter1
11-16-2005, 04:30 AM
hi,
re link
http://www.linuxworldexpo.de/linux_messe.php?lang=en

BaldieJr
11-16-2005, 10:09 AM
I wish people would get over linux. Its not that great. Take it from a long time unix user.

FeeBSD is better. Its not 500000000000 distrobutions doing 50000000000 different things.

I would purchase a FreeBSD version of Olegs game. I'm probably the only one though.

Like I said: I wish the world would get over linuix. Its not even funny any more.

starfighter1
11-16-2005, 02:18 PM
hi,
Ok also a UNIX derivate ..why not it's running very stable
Anyway a developer of a PC_sim game looks to the market of desktop users. I guess it will take more time to this Open Source OS than Suse for example.
Novell is interest to push Linux (Suse) more into the enduser market.
That's the point and even the hardware industry
is looking to the big consumer market.

I testet X-plane 8.16(next 8.2/8.3)) on Linux and it's running fine.
even on workstation with more than 1 CPU/GPU

that rocks http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif




<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BaldieJr:
I wish people would get over linux. Its not that great. Take it from a long time unix user.

FeeBSD is better. Its not 500000000000 distrobutions doing 50000000000 different things.

I would purchase a FreeBSD version of Olegs game. I'm probably the only one though.

Like I said: I wish the world would get over linuix. Its not even funny any more. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

BaldieJr
11-16-2005, 03:57 PM
Thats my point! Linux linux linux! More press, less operating system. Blah.

MULTICS: Ancient history of the bells

UNICS: 1969 or so. Leftovers from MUITLICS.

UNIX: Who knows when the spelling was changed? Freebie given away by at&t.

BSD: First tape released 1978 by berkley. This is UNIX made into something usable.

MINIX: Released 1987-ish

Linux: A clone of Minix released 1991

FreeBSD: Released 1993 from 386BSD sources (aka JOLIX, released 1992 from a port of the 4.3BSD sources to x86 (released in 1982)). The whole thing was rewritten around 1995 using sources from 4.4BSD-Lite (which is a direct descenant of BSD released in 1978!).

FreeBSD is very mature.

It is not a kernel with some programs. It is a complete operating system.

It is better than linux. It is not fragmented like linux. It is a real operating system.

It is stable. There are old legacy versions, production versions, and experimental snapshot releases (for the dateless engineers). Linux has one release: the one thats being worked on, and a bunch of old releases: the ones that got fixed.

FreeBSD is not something new, its something new to you. I will not fault you for that, but since you want something better, I must insist that you throw linux out the window and forget about it it. Its WindowsJr.. Its carp. Forget it.

Codex1971
11-17-2005, 12:49 AM
Anything is better than M$ Window$...

http://www.freebsd.org/

x6BL_Brando
11-17-2005, 08:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Anything is better than M$ Window$... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sure?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v458/brando6BL/ruslinux.jpg

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

WWSensei
11-17-2005, 11:18 AM
Rather than porting the entire game (limited market and so probably not much profit for the effort), but if they ported the dedicated server to Linux that would most likely take off on a large scale.

HelSqnProtos
11-17-2005, 12:10 PM
S~!

Now there was a smart idea, another of the things I have been calling for for years,

Many hosting companies won't even touch the series because they don't want to run windows based clients. A Linux based Dedicated server would be VERY beneficial to B.O.B.

TooCooL34
11-17-2005, 04:02 PM
It's just a wish that wouldn't be realized.
Think about all the drivers you need for your peripherals.
Let alone Oleg's additional work, you got to start petition for CH, MS, Saitek, and TrackIR drivers.
Would you program them yourself? That's the spirit of Linux. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Aaron_GT
11-18-2005, 01:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Many hosting companies won't even touch the series because they don't want to run windows based clients. A Linux based Dedicated server would be VERY beneficial to B.O.B. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A lot of hosting companies are moving to using virtualisation, so that neatly sidesteps that. You just run the dedicated server inside a Windows VM hosted under Xen under Linux.

With regard to the relative merits of Linux and BSD, BSD is fragmented too, and the incompatibilites between different BSD flavours is greater than between Linux distributions, although there are only 4 main flavours, assuming you count Darwin as a BSD.

To be honest Solaris 10 on x86 is actually a better OS than either Linux or BSD in most situations. And BeOS 5 would probably have made a better gaming OS than either.

The issue really is hardware and software support. In general Windows has the widest hardware support due to its desktop popularity. Linux has reasonable support for many things. MacOS X is a BSD-like system that works well, but only on more limited hardware, and BSD and Solaris have worse hardware support than Linux. It's down to popularity. Given that Linux has gained a lot of serious developers with big corporate muscle in a way the BSD flavours haven't I expect that Linux might ultimately outstrip the BSDs. The BSDs were designed with security built in from the ground up, whereas Linux wasn't, but there are lots of efforts to improve Linux in this area, to the point where governments have certified some distributions.

Aaron_GT
11-18-2005, 01:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Let alone Oleg's additional work, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The low level code (the flight algorithms) are
likely to be in C++ and portable. The tricky
bits are the user interface, which could be written in Java, network code, and threading,
for which libraries exist to abstract the OS
away. Learning those libraries would be an
overhead, plus you have to rely on the
company that develops them to keep up to
date with the relevant OSes and stay in
business. You can always develop your own,
but that's another overhead.

The big overhead comes in testing the system
on two operating systems, and then all the
different flavours of Linux. You could only
hope to certify it for a relatively few versions
of Linux. This is where Baldie is right in
that the fragmentation of the number of versions
of Linux is a problem. With the LSB it is
getting a bit simpler.

csThor
11-18-2005, 02:20 AM
What happens to development and quality when two fundamentally different systems are being supported by a rather small team can be seen with Warbirds by iEN. It wasn't only wrong management decisions by iEN but also technical problems with the Windows and Mac version that hampered development and caused many players to leave.

I'd say a unix-based Dedicated server is the maximum people can ask for. A unix-based client would be economically disastrous - how many people are actually using Linux/Free-BSD in comparison to the masses of Windows users? And please don't come saying "But I would use Linux only, if ..." - we as forum users are a vanishingly small minority. A game lives as much from its hardcore fans as from random customers - most of which are using Windows.

starfighter1
11-18-2005, 02:56 AM
hi,
indeed Your Name is 'Meier' http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
sorry please inform You more about market penetration of Linux etc.,even of the desktop trends..and the linux gamer world ..
last the problem: DirektX10/Open GL 2.0

I guess the Maddox team favorites OpenGL http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif or ? even the professionals in render technology ..remember O.M. talked about that



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by csThor:
What happens to development and quality when two fundamentally different systems are being supported by a rather small team can be seen with Warbirds by iEN. It wasn't only wrong management decisions by iEN but also technical problems with the Windows and Mac version that hampered development and caused many players to leave.

I'd say a unix-based Dedicated server is the maximum people can ask for. A unix-based client would be economically disastrous - how many people are actually using Linux/Free-BSD in comparison to the masses of Windows users? And please don't come saying "But I would use Linux only, if ..." - we as forum users are a vanishingly small minority. A game lives as much from its hardcore fans as from random customers - most of which are using Windows. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

csThor
11-18-2005, 04:16 AM
starfighter I know your views and I'm still not aware of any decent marketshare (of the private end-user PC market) of a Unix-based derivate. They have what - 10% at best combined?
Fact is we are neither GFX professionals nor render experts - we are simple customers. What each of us does for a living does not count in that respect.
I am aware of M$ plans for DX10 and OpenGl, though, but I believe that nothing is eaten as hot as it was cooked. I'll just wait and see.

Let's leave it at that, ok? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

starfighter1
11-18-2005, 06:18 AM
hi,
OK csThor...I'm far away to diskuss OS-System in this forum,there are better places in different forums http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif
and this is also not a poll
so let's go back to the main question

will the new BoB engine run on Linux:
Yes http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif or No http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif


hope for a answer from the developer by himself soon http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by csThor:
starfighter I know your views and I'm still not aware of any decent marketshare (of the private end-user PC market) of a Unix-based derivate. They have what - 10% at best combined?
Fact is we are neither GFX professionals nor render experts - we are simple customers. What each of us does for a living does not count in that respect.
I am aware of M$ plans for DX10 and OpenGl, though, but I believe that nothing is eaten as hot as it was cooked. I'll just wait and see.

Let's leave it at that, ok? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

BaldieJr
11-18-2005, 07:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">BSD is fragmented too, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Not its not.

Aaron_GT
11-18-2005, 09:13 AM
OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD, Darwin/OSX (which is a BSD/Next mix). 4 Flavours which are more mutually
incompatible than most Linux distributions
(especially given that most major Linux distros
are moving closer with the LSB initiative).

Technically Linux is just the kernel, so really
it is GNU/Linux, and BSDs, given all the
additional GNU tools are almost GNU/BSD with
the exception of OSX which has the additional
proprietary GUIs.

starfighter1
11-18-2005, 01:05 PM
hi,
by the way: this is coming fom AMD in 2007 and I guess Intel will follow and even the /PCI(SLI) Quad graphic cards http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

OK now the game and pc-sim developers have a lot of new work to make the software running even in 64 bit and multi cpu/gpu and on the next generation of 64bit OS http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

the Linux desktop penetration(as well as server) is coming up more and more that's market facts


http://www.firingsquad.com/news/newsarticle.asp?searchid=8935





<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
OpenBSD, NetBSD, FreeBSD, Darwin/OSX (which is a BSD/Next mix). 4 Flavours which are more mutually
incompatible than most Linux distributions
(especially given that most major Linux distros
are moving closer with the LSB initiative).

Technically Linux is just the kernel, so really
it is GNU/Linux, and BSDs, given all the
additional GNU tools are almost GNU/BSD with
the exception of OSX which has the additional
proprietary GUIs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LeadSpitter_
11-18-2005, 05:34 PM
the game would be hacked instantly if it supported linux hosting.

thats not worth making it run a tiny bit better.

WWSensei
11-18-2005, 11:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
the game would be hacked instantly if it supported linux hosting.

thats not worth making it run a tiny bit better. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bull, it wouldn't be any more vulnerable than the windows version is now.

ElAurens
11-19-2005, 07:55 AM
linux = haxor

Be sure.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

VW-IceFire
11-19-2005, 09:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BaldieJr:
I wish people would get over linux. Its not that great. Take it from a long time unix user.

FeeBSD is better. Its not 500000000000 distrobutions doing 50000000000 different things.

I would purchase a FreeBSD version of Olegs game. I'm probably the only one though.

Like I said: I wish the world would get over linuix. Its not even funny any more. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Question: I'm not a complete slouch about the underlying workings of OS's...but I'm not a genius either. If this game were ported to work on Linux...from what I understand about how closely related BSD is to Linux (despite what many would try and dispute) wouldn't it be a fairly easy step to jump over to BSD.

I seem to recall seeing quite a few piece of open source software supporting releases on Linux and BSD...I just sort of got the impression that it didn't take much...once you got it on one to make it work on the other.

I could be wrong...not a programmer. Just thinking that if they do spend the effort you can go both ways.

BaldieJr
11-20-2005, 10:18 PM
Linux stuff will usually run on BSD but not the other way around. You can even run linux binaries on freebsd if you need too.

The primary reason for not developing for linux is support:

Linux is not an OS. Every distro is doing its own thing and documentation only applies to a single version of a single distro.

Freebsd is an OS and its documentation is superb. It could easily be supported by a few trained monkeys.

Werre_Fsck
11-27-2005, 05:29 AM
Well I've used Linux for 11 years as my main hobbyism OS and 8 years at work. I have no experience with BSD's but some with HP-UX and ancient Solaris.

I don't care about Linux client for IL-2. Getting OpenGL to work and getting all USB sticks, pedals etc to work is as easy or easier getting to work than under Windows, but it's the little details like no TrackIR support and configuring deadzones and response curves for controllers that would necessitate additional software... most of which does not exist. Also, the zillion distributions and variants and customized kernels would make supporting it a nightmare.

I have Linux for serious stuff and XP for my gaming PC, and getting a Linux client would offer me ZERO benefits. The game is closed proprietary **** anyways ;-)

The good thing is, I heard IL2 series win32 binaries run under Cedega and Wine now. So we will still have working stable IL2 platform in 10 years time, for some retro playing, probably running in some kind of x86 VM.

Aaron_GT
11-27-2005, 06:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The good thing is, I heard IL2 series win32 binaries run under Cedega and Wine now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They do, but a new version of Windows could easily break Wine. I could run IL2 under Cedega on my PC if ATI would write some decent Linux drivers..