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RxMan
06-21-2005, 01:57 PM
When in cockpit at tail gun position the whole canopy including frame rotates, how can this be? Trying to aim at trailing planes, half the time you cannot see them because the frame is in the way, and the d**m thing moves and rotates with the gun.

RxMan
06-21-2005, 01:57 PM
When in cockpit at tail gun position the whole canopy including frame rotates, how can this be? Trying to aim at trailing planes, half the time you cannot see them because the frame is in the way, and the d**m thing moves and rotates with the gun.

horseback
06-21-2005, 02:48 PM
That's how the real thing operated...the whole plexiglass 'greenhouse' on the tail was mounted on ball bearings so that the whole thing could rotate and allow the gunner maximum coverage, although how a guy 5'2" tall and 120 lbs (size of the average Japanese man in 1942) was able to effectively manhandle a 20mm cannon mounted that way could do so effectively, I'll never know.

cheers

horseback

p1ngu666
06-21-2005, 02:53 PM
the new ai betty is much more open, wish we had that as flyable.

in the beta is spazzumed around horribly too http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

NonWonderDog
06-21-2005, 03:09 PM
The frame should really limit the traverse speed of the gun, though. It looks awfully funny for the framing to spin around at 200 rpm as you track a target quickly.

As a matter of fact, none of the player-controllable turrets have any limit on traverse speed. Hmm...

p1ngu666
06-21-2005, 03:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NonWonderDog:
The frame should really limit the traverse speed of the gun, though. It looks awfully funny for the framing to spin around at 200 rpm as you track a target quickly.

As a matter of fact, none of the player-controllable turrets have any limit on traverse speed. Hmm... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

nope they do, b25 top turret is 120degrees a second or something. manual guns have no limit

FritzGryphon
06-21-2005, 08:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">nope they do, b25 top turret is 120degrees a second or something. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you change mouse sensitivity, you can make it turn faster. Even with normal sensitivity, it is much faster than 120dps.

No limit for any guns. But some like B-25, are less sensitive than others, and you have to move the mouse quicker.

bolillo_loco
06-22-2005, 08:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by horseback:
That's how the real thing operated...the whole plexiglass 'greenhouse' on the tail was mounted on ball bearings so that the whole thing could rotate and allow the gunner maximum coverage, although how a guy 5'2" tall and 120 lbs (size of the average Japanese man in 1942) was able to effectively manhandle a 20mm cannon mounted that way could do so effectively, I'll never know.

cheers

horseback </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

my ex-wife had no problem hip firing a 1908 maxim machine gun in full auto, she is 5'4" 112lbs.........maybe the gun thing came natural to her 1st generation Italian born in the usa.

btw, if you have ever seen a 1908 maxim water cooled mg........it is very heavy, the reciever is hugh.

tigertalon
06-23-2005, 01:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by horseback:
That's how the real thing operated </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you sure about that? AFAIK IRL if you had side plexi covers closed, gun could be moved only up and down (most common angles tail gunners operate at), but to get additional side angle, gunner had to open those plexi covers apart, like they are opened on late G4M11 series.

Have no sources on that though...

Philipscdrw
06-23-2005, 06:33 AM
I imagine, if we asked 1C about gun traverse speed, we would be told it would require a major re-write of the gunnery code to set limits like that. Which isn't suprising, if the original concept of Il-2 Sturmovik was to only feature the Il-2, which only got manual guns.

To be honest, I don't use the gun turrets often enough to be annoyed by the rapidly spinning cowling. I like the gunners stations, but I just go to them to look around, because the gunners are mute. Gunner AI stays on!

Grue_
06-23-2005, 07:57 AM
Frame is annoying, IRL the gunner could move his head to avoid staring at the frame.

Roll on 6DOF.

p1ngu666
06-23-2005, 01:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FritzGryphon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">nope they do, b25 top turret is 120degrees a second or something. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you change mouse sensitivity, you can make it turn faster. Even with normal sensitivity, it is much faster than 120dps.

No limit for any guns. But some like B-25, are less sensitive than others, and you have to move the mouse quicker. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

try the top turret, even if u whack the mouse u dont spin around, atleast for me

RxMan
06-23-2005, 04:59 PM
But I really like the 20 mm in the tail !

Feathered_IV
06-23-2005, 09:38 PM
In real life the rear portion of the glazing was unpopular with gunners and was often removed.

FritzGryphon
06-24-2005, 02:40 AM
whack the mouse u dont spin around, atleast for me

I stand corrected.

I set mouse sensitity to 10, and turned the turret as fast as I could in one smooth motion, without stopping. Regardless of how fast I moved the mous, the turret rotated at a constant rate. It is limited to exactly 120 dps.

http://members.shaw.ca/evilgryphon3/spin.avi

Which goes to show one shouldn't believe anything they read here.

p1ngu666
06-24-2005, 11:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Feathered_IV:
In real life the rear portion of the glazing was unpopular with gunners and was often removed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

dont suppose u have any pics of such a modification?

would be a REALLY good field mod to have http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

SkyChimp
06-26-2005, 01:53 PM
Me likes Betty tailgun.

Kernow
06-28-2005, 04:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Grue_:
Frame is annoying, IRL the gunner could move his head to avoid staring at the frame.

Roll on 6DOF. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. Which is why rigid interpretation of 'accuracy' can make for poorer simulation.

If I look out the window - which is about as far from me as the glass of a cockpit canopy would be - the vertical bars appear transluscent, because I have 2 eyes mounted horizontally. Even horizontal bars are easily seen around by very slight head movements. In-game I have to roll the entire ac to see past similar canopy bars. Solid canopy bars might be 'accurate,' but transluscent ones would be better simulation.

Frequently it is impossible for a human gunner to aim the rear gun in the Betty. Other gunner positions also allow the gun to be positioned beyond the ability of a human gunner to sight the weapon - but presumably a real gunner could still aim the weapon. I've frequently been accurately engaged by AI gunners depressing their guns over the side of SBDs and the like in positions I know I wouldn't have a hope of being able to engage.

Feathered_IV
06-29-2005, 04:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">dont suppose u have any pics of such a modification?

would be a REALLY good field mod to have </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Here you go mate http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.ijnafpics.com/JB&W3/G4M-32s.jpg

http://www.ijnafpics.com/JB&W3/G4M-29.jpg

p1ngu666
06-29-2005, 06:58 AM
we should send that to oleg, shouldnt be too much to hack off the rear ?

thanks too http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Kernow
06-29-2005, 10:01 AM
Ahhh, I've seen lots of pictures with the apparently 'flat' rear end. I used to wonder if it was actually a large flat pane of plexiglass for better optical quality or something. It seemed unusual anyway. But I see it must just have been an open area where the cone had been taken out.

Guess it woulda saved a lot of effort to just model that in the first place... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Feathered_IV
07-02-2005, 12:43 AM
Notice the one in the top photo has a semi-circular cutout in the top part of the glazing too. Never noticed that before....http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

fuser59
07-02-2005, 05:45 AM
Has anyone ever found the toilet in the Betty?

Riceball88-
07-07-2005, 03:07 PM
musta been real easy for the rear gunner to relieve himself heh? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Blackdog5555
07-07-2005, 06:45 PM
unless you pee into turbulence.. you wind up with sticky bullets