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F16_Petter
10-23-2004, 09:18 AM
I hope and belive you will be satisfied.

http://www.saabaerosystems.com/5.d7b7d9ffb135f3737fff247.html

F16_Petter
10-23-2004, 09:18 AM
I hope and belive you will be satisfied.

http://www.saabaerosystems.com/5.d7b7d9ffb135f3737fff247.html

Odin914
10-23-2004, 09:29 AM
I´m sure they will be satisfied. We Austrians have choosen the Eurofighter instead - will take a while until this bird is operational.

As a friend of Sweden and from a technical standpoint I would have preferred the Gripen too.

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
10-23-2004, 11:23 AM
OMG you said EuroFighter every time some one mentions it I get this sinking feeling in my defense budget.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

jurinko
10-23-2004, 12:47 PM
definitely better than their many times upgraded MiG-21s, which are basically from Vietnam war. But whether it will help their growing public debt..

falco_cz
10-23-2004, 01:09 PM
Grippen is nice but we somehow "forget" to order AIM120s, so they will be have only AIM9M...can you say "degradation"...

WUAF_Badsight
10-23-2004, 02:37 PM
Aim9's kick butt !

falco_cz
10-23-2004, 02:57 PM
Aim9's kick butt !

Maybe, but in modern air combat it's not recommended getting too close and personal.WWII ended 60 yrs ago.

Korolov
10-23-2004, 03:17 PM
Long range weapon systems aren't exactly foolproof. There will always be a need for up-close and personal dogfighting, guns or missiles.

LStarosta
10-23-2004, 03:18 PM
Yeah, and I won't mention what kind of piece of **** the Poles are stuck with... But hey, at least it's Western...

Platypus_1.JaVA
10-23-2004, 04:11 PM
Hah! I bought a Czech aviation magazine on my holiday there and altough I can't read a single word Czech, from the picture and some numbers I managed to understand that the Czechs have bought one or two squadrons of this beautifull fighter. The Saab Grippen looks cool and the Czechs are going top fly it, congratulations!

PBNA-Boosher
10-23-2004, 06:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LStarosta:
Yeah, and I won't mention what kind of piece of **** the Poles are stuck with... But hey, at least it's Western... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I'm not mistaken, wasn't Poland recently negotiating with Germany to buy their MiG-29 fleet?

Willey
10-23-2004, 06:34 PM
Yep, they got our MiGs for 1" each... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

p1ngu666
10-23-2004, 06:47 PM
id rather have the hawker typhoon over the eurofighter typhoon http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

speaking of which, are they any uk squadrons with the eurofighter?. or is it quietly consuming money? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

LStarosta
10-23-2004, 08:51 PM
Yeah, what I was talking about were American F16's, Pingu. Top notch outdated piece of sh*t. History repeats itself, don't it. Good thing the wars we fight now are on terror and terrorists don't have air forces.

Korolov
10-23-2004, 10:59 PM
The F-16 currently in use isn't necessarily what the original prototype was; it was, essentially, Air Force-ized. Originally designed as a highly maneuverable, lightweight fighter, it was turned into a multi-role fighter, which, it is hardly suited for. In any case it's gone way past it's years, but there's no denying it's a more affordable piece of equipment.

Remember that wars aren't won entirely by technology alone. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

robban75
10-24-2004, 07:13 AM
That is beautiful! But as a model builder I was hoping for a different camouflage scheme. I wonder if Hungary and South Africa will go with the "Swedish scheme" aswell. Looking a Hungary's MiG-29's, it may not be all that impossible. http://www.militaryairshows.net/riat2003/img_8085.jpg

LStarosta
10-24-2004, 08:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Korolov:
The F-16 currently in use isn't necessarily what the original prototype was; it was, essentially, Air Force-ized. Originally designed as a highly maneuverable, lightweight fighter, it was turned into a multi-role fighter, which, it is hardly suited for. In any case it's gone way past it's years, but there's no denying it's a more affordable piece of equipment.

Remember that wars aren't won entirely by technology alone. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed, but we had a choice of buying either American refurbed F16's or BRAND NEW Mirages or Gripens. Since our government basically turned us into America's b*tch, for the lack of a better term (Don't get mad, I'm American too) we were obligated to buy their scrap metal and spend several millions of dollars on renovating it.

Rola.
10-24-2004, 10:11 AM
Polish F-16C Block52+ camo & markings scheme (http://pages.prodigy.net/jbarr2/_uimages/1-48thF-16CPolandBlock52w-CFTs2.jpg)
- recommended for modelers and fanboys alike http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif



F-16s... Grippens... Mirages...

nothing beats this hi-tech Trabbie!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.foxhound.terramail.pl/pieF16.jpg

FI-Aflak
10-24-2004, 11:59 AM
check out the heat-shimmer in the third pic . . . wow.

Great looking fighter, and go Czechs! The largest part of me is Czech, and I've still go some family over there, so go them.

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
10-24-2004, 12:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rola.:
http://pages.prodigy.net/jbarr2/_uimages/1-48thF-16CPolandBlock52w-CFTs2.jpg
- recommended for modelers and fanboys alike http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif



F-16s... Grippens... Mirages...

nothing beats this hi-tech Trabbie!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.foxhound.terramail.pl/pieF16.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now that really does rawwwk does it come with chaff dispenser ?

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

Rola.
10-24-2004, 12:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tHeBaLrOgRoCkS:
does it come with chaff dispenser ?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm afraid this information is classified... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
I can only say that its small profile as well as the components used for its construction (read: plastic, lol) provide it with a third-generation stealth capabilities... if you won't notice the engine/exhaust pipe noise http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Too bad that PZL-230F Scorpion was never realized, that ground attack a/c was supposed to have avionics interchangeable with F-16s.

http://www.dakotacom.net/~robertz/skorpion3.jpg

http://www.dakotacom.net/~robertz/skorpion2.jpg

NegativeGee
10-24-2004, 12:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
speaking of which, are they any uk squadrons with the eurofighter?. or is it quietly consuming money? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its going to be a slow process (http://www.eurofighter.starstreak.net/Eurofighter/squadron.html)

Platypus_1.JaVA
10-24-2004, 02:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NegativeGee:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
speaking of which, are they any uk squadrons with the eurofighter?. or is it quietly consuming money? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its going to be a http://www.eurofighter.starstreak.net/Eurofighter/squadron.html <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Slow progress? The Eurofighter was planned to be in service TEN YEARS AGO!!! that's the main reason that we Dutchies didn't buy it and get JSF's to replace our F-16's by 2010-2020. At that point, the Eurofighter will be 15 to 20 years old!!

NegativeGee
10-24-2004, 03:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Platypus_1.JaVA:

Slow progress? The Eurofighter was planned to be in service TEN YEARS AGO!!! that's the main reason that we Dutchies didn't buy it and get JSF's to replace our F-16's by 2010-2020. At that point, the Eurofighter will be 15 to 20 years old!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lol, like I said, slow progress http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I know a guy who is a ground tech on Tornado and he already thinks the Typhoon is pointless, especially compared to what their current aircraft are capable off.

p1ngu666
10-24-2004, 04:37 PM
ah http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

still next season the raf transport units may have sneaked in a purchase of a sukoi areobatic plane or two, for increasingly mental areobatic displays at airshows http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Korolov
10-24-2004, 06:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LStarosta:
Agreed, but we had a choice of buying either American refurbed F16's or BRAND NEW Mirages or Gripens. Since our government basically turned us into America's b*tch, for the lack of a better term (Don't get mad, I'm American too) we were obligated to buy their scrap metal and spend several millions of dollars on renovating it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Something you need to keep in mind with military spending, especially with a country like Poland which I would hazard to say has a limited military budget, is how much these jets will cost to buy, keep maintained, repaired, and compatible. Brand new Mirages or Gripens for a country that doesn't find itself in many Air-to-Air battles (currently) would be a big waste. This "scrap metal", even if it took several million to renovate, might turn out to be, in the long run, the best option that fits the budget.

Not even the USA can afford the most top-line equipment the moment it comes out. Moreso, amoung compatibility and costs, is it really needed? Why bother with a costly Gripen when you can get a MiG-29 for half as much? This especially rings true in modern combat, where air battles are very scarce; and when it comes down to brass tacks, both planes will work about as well as the other.

It's not fair to either side to say Poland is "America's b*tch", and the fact lies that they simply made a agreement or deal that you don't like. You can say you hate the F-16 all you want, I really don't care, but it's flat out rude to say that Poland is sucking up to the USA based on a few stupid jets they bought.

LStarosta
10-24-2004, 06:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Korolov:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LStarosta:
Agreed, but we had a choice of buying either American refurbed F16's or BRAND NEW Mirages or Gripens. Since our government basically turned us into America's b*tch, for the lack of a better term (Don't get mad, I'm American too) we were obligated to buy their scrap metal and spend several millions of dollars on renovating it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Something you need to keep in mind with military spending, especially with a country like Poland which I would hazard to say has a limited military budget, is how much these jets will cost to buy, keep maintained, repaired, and compatible. Brand new Mirages or Gripens for a country that doesn't find itself in many Air-to-Air battles (currently) would be a big waste. This "scrap metal", even if it took several million to renovate, might turn out to be, in the long run, the best option that fits the budget.

Not even the USA can afford the most top-line equipment the moment it comes out. Moreso, amoung compatibility and costs, is it really needed? Why bother with a costly Gripen when you can get a MiG-29 for half as much? This especially rings true in modern combat, where air battles are very scarce; and when it comes down to brass tacks, both planes will work about as well as the other.

It's not fair to either side to say Poland is "America's b*tch", and the fact lies that they simply made a agreement or deal that you don't like. You can say you hate the F-16 all you want, I really don't care, but it's flat out rude to say that Poland is sucking up to the USA based on a few stupid jets they bought. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Have you ANY idea on the Polish-American political situation right now? I get the feeling that you do not understand what is going on. I apologize if you do, and I will go as far as saying that I completely disagree with your informed rebuttal. I do not wish to go into details, but Poland had a proposal from several countries to modernize its air force. I'm really inclined to believe that we could have purchased newer, more advanced aircraft, even if not on a grand scale. In fact, the costs of renovating these F16's may exceed the price of new aircraft such as Mirages or Grippens in the long run. Same with the C130's. Those will only serve about 7 years until they need an overhaul. And they still need to be fitted with avionics and the such, which inadvertently digs a deeper hole in our military budget, which in turn has an ENORMOUS effect on just about everything else, considering how small Poland is and how frail its economy still is. Keep in mind that I am not suggesting Poland becomes a world power of any sorts, because investing too much money into the military leaves a country as deprived as Russia now is, having invested so much money in military equipment that became outdated faster than you could say "I told you so".


As a Pole and an American, I do not find my harsh analysis (read: America's b*tch) of the current Polish-American relations to be rude. I find it to be true. Ask any Pole, preferably not of the ruling class elite, on what he thinks of us being in Iraq and us getting outdated equipment from the Americans, and most likely he will agree.

Nevertheless, I am sure those F16's are going to be put to good use. They sure are better than nothing. Just understand me when I feel bitter over Poland subpar equipment in this particular manner. You say that today is an age where many air battles aren't fought. Many people observed the same just before WWII. And what happened? If you know Poles, you know they're a really romantic people, especially when their nation is at stake. And believe me, we lost our nation way too many times before to just toss off patriotism and national pride into the wind. (As you have noticed, we do not particularly lack cynicism or pessimism, either.)

On a related note, I'm really happy to see Polish war industry taking a big step up in the electronics and land warfare department. At least we're putting our students and engineer's minds to good use.

Korolov
10-24-2004, 07:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LStarosta:
Have you ANY idea on the Polish-American political situation right now? I get the feeling that you do not understand what is going on. I apologize if you do, and I will go as far as saying that I completely disagree with your informed rebuttal. I do not wish to go into details, but Poland had a proposal from several countries to modernize its air force. I'm really inclined to believe that we could have purchased newer, more advanced aircraft, even if not on a grand scale. In fact, the costs of renovating these F16's may exceed the price of new aircraft such as Mirages or Grippens in the long run. Same with the C130's. Those will only serve about 7 years until they need an overhaul. And they still need to be fitted with avionics and the such, which inadvertently digs a deeper hole in our military budget, which in turn has an ENORMOUS effect on just about everything else, considering how small Poland is and how frail its economy still is.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then it's fair to assume that Poland should not have gone for a military upgrade at that time. Why waste the money on this "American ****" if there are other, more important matters to attend to?

Before we get too far off topic, let me say that the Poles answered the call to arms on their own choices. You may not agree with that, or the Polish population may not, but that is for them to decide come election day, no?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Keep in mind that I am not suggesting Poland becomes a world power of any sorts, because investing too much money into the military leaves a country as deprived as Russia now is, having invested so much money in military equipment that became outdated faster than you could say "I told you so".
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If Poland would decide to become a world power, I wouldn't mind. I respect them, especially with all they've been through. However, look at this: current military equipment has been in service for decades, if not more, and still performs quite well against modern adversaries. The B-52, in service for almost 50 years, is planned to still be in service for maybe another 25. It is a very useful piece of equipment and does it's job quite well. Why should we pour billions designing a completely new jet to replace it, if it already does the job we need it to quite well? Hence, if a paticular piece of equipment doesn't do it's job well, it becomes necessary to replace it. I haven't heard much about the F-16 not being able to do it's job.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
As a Pole and an American, I do not find my harsh analysis (read: America's b*tch) of the current Polish-American relations to be rude. I find it to be true. Ask any Pole, preferably not of the ruling class elite, on what he thinks of us being in Iraq and us getting outdated equipment from the Americans, and most likely he will agree.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not going to reply to this as I feel it's just far too off-topic than this forum will allow.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Nevertheless, I am sure those F16's are going to be put to good use. They sure are better than nothing. Just understand me when I feel bitter over Poland subpar equipment in this particular manner. You say that today is an age where many air battles aren't fought. Many people observed the same just before WWII. And what happened? If you know Poles, you know they're a really romantic people, especially when their nation is at stake. And believe me, we lost our nation way too many times before to just toss off patriotism and national pride into the wind. (As you have noticed, we do not particularly lack cynicism or pessimism, either.)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The thing is, the F-16 couldn't be called sub-par equipment. It is old, but it is still quite competetive. I don't think it's as good as, say, a MiG-29 for example, but thats simply my own opinion.

Now, my basis for the lack of air combat comes from several things:

There are few, if any, militaries that can afford enough equipment to challenge those already fielding recent aircraft. If a terrorist tried to take a MiG-15 up against the Polish air force, he'd more or less be hit with multiple numbers of missiles, both air and ground launched, and unlikely to impact much of anything. There goes a huge chunk of change down in flames. Most, if any, air forces that could challenge the western world would likely be taken out within a couple days, maybe a couple weeks.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
On a related note, I'm really happy to see Polish war industry taking a big step up in the electronics and land warfare department. At least we're putting our students and engineer's minds to good use. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now this is what I agree with, highly. You can manufacture your own equipment, on your own specifications, retaining pride and also independence. I surely hope that Poland will be able to make their own aircraft in the coming years, avoiding reliance on outside governments.

Salfordian
10-25-2004, 04:35 AM
Whats wrong with Eurofighter? Fair enough a lot of delays, cost overruns etc but in AFM a couple of months ago, they had a piece on 17 Sqn who where doing all the into service stuff and it said how two Typhoons where on a training flight, got bounced unexpectedly by 2 F15s, then quickly turned the tables and kicked their a$$ (they were F15Es though). Also said that the former head of USAF reckons its only bettered by the F22.
Just hope they get all the problems sorted out soon.

BTW love the Gripen, sweet plane.

Lazy312
10-25-2004, 05:16 AM
I am Czech and I am really happy our army gets grippens.

Rola.
10-25-2004, 05:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Korolov:
Then it's fair to assume that Poland should not have gone for a military upgrade at that time. Why waste the money on this "American ****" if there are other, more important matters to attend to? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Please remember, that such substantial transactions, while being primarily about selling military equipment, have also a joint "offset deal" (basically: the side which sells stuff invests in client's industry), which should be no less interesting to the buyer.
The economic boost that Finland witnessed in its recent history as well as its position in cellular telephony market were reached thanks to the offset deal linked to the buy of F/A-18 !
So we Poles hoped that the F-16 deal can also help our economy (ruined by the leftist government, after all: what do post-commies know about free market?), but so far I haven't hear any good offer from American side. One of the things that were (supposedly?) proposed was... pig farming ?!?!?!?!
Finland gets high-tech electionics, Poland... ehh, Poland? let's give them pigs, they're farming country after all...

I'm not considering the F-16s as a complete junk, but perhaps we had a chance for better deal.

Cajun76
10-25-2004, 07:40 AM
This actually came up awhile back on the forums here, and if you read the info about the engagement, the F-15s were operating under several equipement and ROE's restricting and limiting their effectiveness. It wasn't a clear-cut example of Typhoon dominace, nor F-15 incompetence. I can't really draw any conclusions from it, as the conditions were skewed against the F-15E's, not to mention the variant is optimized for all weather strike, not A2A. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Salfordian
10-25-2004, 08:04 AM
Sorry cajun, yeah that is why I put the bit in about them being Es, as they are strike A/C and the typhoons were not loaded up also.

The Typhoon just seems to get a bit of bad press, though from hearing the former test pilot on the british side talking a couple of years ago, he was very impressed with it, said he hadn't flown a plane like it since the lightning he flew in service. Just think a lot of people underestimate the potential of this aircraft.

robban75
10-25-2004, 08:51 AM
The Eurofighter Typhoon is an outstanding machine no doubt. The way that thing performs at airshows, man! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif The prototype with the much less powerful RB199 engines managed to get the fighter of the ground in 5 seconds, the EJ200 engines would probably take away at least another second. What the Eurofighter needs is the TIDLS of the Gripen, it would aid its effectiveness even more.

An awesome fighter nonetheless!

watteville
10-25-2004, 05:11 PM
any Czech on this board?, I am thinking of visiting Prague with my wife this june and would love to chat to some Czech about where to stay (very comfortably), what to do and see (untouristic and interesting) and make some friends. Cool Saab looks like a Mirage

LStarosta
10-25-2004, 05:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rola.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Korolov:
Then it's fair to assume that Poland should not have gone for a military upgrade at that time. Why waste the money on this "American ****" if there are other, more important matters to attend to? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Please remember, that such substantial transactions, while being primarily about selling military equipment, have also a joint "offset deal" (basically: the side which sells stuff invests in client's industry), which should be no less interesting to the buyer.
The economic boost that Finland witnessed in its recent history as well as its position in cellular telephony market were reached thanks to the offset deal linked to the buy of F/A-18 !
So we Poles hoped that the F-16 deal can also help our economy (ruined by the leftist government, after all: what do post-commies know about free market?), but so far I haven't hear any good offer from American side. One of the things that were (supposedly?) proposed was... pig farming ?!?!?!?!
Finland gets high-tech electionics, Poland... ehh, Poland? let's give them pigs, they're farming country after all...

I'm not considering the F-16s as a complete junk, but perhaps we had a chance for better deal. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you 100% Rola.


Korolov, this is the exact reason why I do not think you know exactly what was behind the deal with Poland buying F16's. I didn't wish to be rude to you, but the behind the table logistics and economics of this deal are what is bothering me and many other Poles, not the F16's themselves. These under the table deals, whether you'd like to call them blackmail, or (empty?) promising, your call, is what has people worried that Poland is becoming dependent on America. We've seen ourselves go from one ruling country to the next, and even though being under America is definately better than under the former CCCP, it's still dependence.

As we have both agreed, the best step would be for our war industry and scientific sectors to apply themselves and figure out new and original Polish solutions for the Polish Air Force and Army (such as the PZL 230F, which unfortunately for certain reasons did not go into production), instead of relying on foreign technology. Unfortunately, the government is not allowing many research grants, and instead, ridiculous sums of money are going to our left wing ruling class, ie the politicians, through our own little Enron and Halliburton type agendas. Furthermore, regular citizens' lives are getting worse as this kind of corrupt BS keeps going on. All I can say is that at least we're not Belarus, but even that faux reassurance wears off, leaving a cynical aftertaste. In which case I agree with your statement that a lot of other domestic and economic issues need fixing before we improve our military. But in all honesty, one cannot overlook the fact that being a NATO and European Union member now, that our military, and specifically our Air Force needs serious Westernization and modernization to allow our forces to be compatible with the forces of other NATO members in joint operations in any conflicts Poland decides to dedicate itself to in the future.

What you said about being happy to see Poland as a world power is kind, but very unlikely, and quite unwise in practice. If we were to militarize intensively, we would neglect our population. War equipment grows bad faster than wet rye bread left out in the sun. If we invest so much money in our military, we'd have to spend even more to modernize it or replace it in 30 years or sooner.

Korolov, I do not wish to be at odds with you, and I am happy that we're exchanging ideas like this. What you said about Polish independence and pride is exactly what I had in mind when I displayed my dissatisfaction in the F16 deal with the USA. Maybe we're not ready financially to develop our own Multirole Fighter solution. But I really wish we were independent enough to choose our own alternative, instead of being somewhat blackmailed or coerced into buying used F16's. Do not get me wrong, the PAF will definately modernize and use these aircraft to the best of their ability.

One thing that really interests me is the type of decentralized command modules that in theory link every piece of Polish war machinery, whether it be a tank, an airplane, or a war cruiser together into a network of computers linked directly to our Military command staff and its Generals and Colonels and all the way down the command ladder. I'd say that in this field, we definately have made great improvements, and the best part about it, is that we did it by ourselves. I am certain, if a little optimistic, that in maybe twenty years we will be able to make even greater steps to improve our military by using our own brilliant thinkers and innovators, because it's sad to see such potential go to waste, isn't it?

Korolov
10-25-2004, 07:30 PM
Admittedly, I'm not aware of what goes on behind the scenes. I can understand what you're describing now, however, in that Poland made a deal but didn't get much from it.

It seems as Poland is one of those countries that suffers from a very large gap between the immensly poor and the incredibly rich.

The only question I have is, how do you know for sure that the Polish government were forced or coerced to buying these jets?

Perhaps I've overstepped my bounds here, I'm ignorant on the issues presented. I didn't mean to offend you in any way.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

LStarosta
10-26-2004, 08:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Korolov:
Admittedly, I'm not aware of what goes on behind the scenes. I can understand what you're describing now, however, in that Poland made a deal but didn't get much from it.

It seems as Poland is one of those countries that suffers from a very large gap between the immensly poor and the incredibly rich.

The only question I have is, how do you know for sure that the Polish government were forced or coerced to buying these jets?

Perhaps I've overstepped my bounds here, I'm ignorant on the issues presented. I didn't mean to offend you in any way.

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It's not so much as a gap between the poor and the rich but basically the rich and the rest of the country, and the rest of the country is poor relative to the corporate/political class, which probably holds water for any capitalist state, no matter how many years it's been since it was under the influence of communism. If not being financially abused, the public is being neglected in many other sectors including healthcare.

The Polish Gov't was not held at gunpoint and forced to buy the jets in this way. They were rather, like Rola explained, stupidly hopeful that America would help its economy or increase its mettle in foreign affairs by making it an important party in the world today. Instead, many Poles just feel duped again by America, much like, yet on a lesser scale, than when FDR, along with Churchill totally disregarded the Atlantic Charter at Yalta, which he and Churchill had praised like the Bible just a few years prior. Hell, our citizens still need visas to get into the U.S. regardless of the fact that we're participating not only in Iraq, but in Afghanistan, and we have major contingents in other stabilization zones such as Kosovo as we speak. One would think that such an "ally", as President Bush 'kindly' refers to us, would be permitted to send its tourists or students to the U.S. without a visa (much like our French and German allies who would rather not dirty their boots in Iraq). Alas, we've been duped on this front as well. Bush explained to Kwasniewski that such a thing would have to go through Congress, and blah blah blah aka very time consuming aka STFU I don't care. Too bad Bush didn't even take any initiative to put forward this legislation so as to give the illusion that he gave a flying sh*te, however, during the Presidential debates, he had the audacity to tell Kerry that he "forgot Poland". A pinch of hypocrisy never hurt anyone, though, did it?

It is the general consensus that Poland was just duped again, and again, and again, and the F16 matter, along with the C130 matter, are just one tiny part of the big picture.

I know it's not the place to hold a political discussion, but so long as this thread is marked OT, and the discussion is remotely linked to the original topic of the thread (yeah, right) I won't think of it so much as thread hijacking as the natural evolution of a discussion. Don't mind me though, I'm an angry American and an angry Pole in no particular order... Pretty explosive combination perhaps?



www.youforgotpoland.com (http://www.youforgotpoland.com)

VW-IceFire
10-26-2004, 09:11 PM
I must say, after doing some reading of the Eurofighter...it looks like a fantastic aircraft in terms of what it can do, what its compatible with, and based on the fact that a consortium of countries can come together to put them in the air.

Looks like it has alot of capability...moreso than the Raptor which is essentially a fighter despite its F/A designation (only JDAM's as far as I know).