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Charmzzz
09-27-2018, 09:30 AM
So, what I have been saying on the forums for 2 months now became proven by Data:

- Conq is still the Duel-King with a 60+% Winrate overall. Some Matchups are close to 70%. This is the 3rd Season in a row and NOTHING was done about it...
- Kensei rising to the Top as I predicted. Too strong overall (ridiculous in Dom together with LB and Raider, as I said). Nothing is done about it...
- PK "Rework": was complete sh*t and is now shown by the Data

Now let's go through this Recap:


Side Dodge Normalization: We adjusted the side dodge recovery of all heroes to be 600ms – some heroes now have faster recovery while some have slower recovery.
What does that mean? Did you or did you NOT normalize Side Dodge recoveries? That sentence is contrary in its meaning.


Switch Stance bug on all the Heroes who do not have Reflex Guard: Patch 1.25 introduced a bug where Non-Assassin Heroes were able to gain an instant guard in different direction instead of having the normal 100ms Switch Stance delay, when doing multiple Stance Changes in a row. This means that all Heroes who are not Assassins were able to use this bug to defend more successfully than usual. This issue had an impact on the meta-game during Season 6 – as we saw that this 100ms difference meant that the fastest attacks, that we want to be unreactable, where now reactable.
Nice that you publicly confirm this. I have been saying this on the forums so many times, yet people did not believe me...


During Season 5, the top 5 1v1 heroes for were Conqueror (60%), Peacekeeper (57%), Kensei (56%), Berserker (54%) and Shaman (53%).
During Season 6, we see that while Conqueror (60%), Kensei (54%) and Shaman (52%) are generally unchanged.
During Season 6, we also see that Berserker (49%) and Peacekeeper (41%) have both dropped significantly.
So you admit that you did NOTHING about the obviously too strong heroes and nerfed the hell out of "the bleed team" (but not Shaman, right?)... The incompetence of analyzing Data and doing the right things is shown on every statistic and statement, don't you see that yourself!?


Conqueror
Conqueror still extremely strong in 1v1. The ability to do a forward dodge and Shield Bash or Guard Break can impose good pressure across the cast. However – what’s interesting here is that while the Conqueror is strong for that reason – when you look at the rest of the top list, they mostly want to counter-attack. The suspicion is that the other top characters (especially Centurion, Lawbringer, Shugoki) would beat Conquerors by countering, and not by initiating combat. This is a large reason for the hesitancy to nerf Conqueror’s Shield Bash – while it’s a difficult pressure tool to deal with, we do need pressuring attacks that force reactions, and control the pace of combat. Instead of nerfing the strong tools, we prefer to continue to improve the weak tools.
Uhm, what!? You admit that Conq Bash is a strong tool (it ignores core mechanic rules btw...) but hesitate to nerf it? WHY the f*ck??? Your other 3 "top characters", namely Shugo / LB / Cent, DO NOT BEAT Conq in Winrate. Did you even look at the Data? Conq beats them easily with 61 (Shugo and Cent) or even 68 (vs LB!!!) %. This whole paragraph is plainly ridiculous and pathetic.


Lawbringer appears to be performing above expectations, and at 51% Win Rate is above the curve.
So that is your smoke bomb to not Rework LB? Again, ridiculous and pathetic.


Peacekeeper
Peacekeeper received a double whammy in Season 6 with both the Switch Stance issue as well as damage nerfs to her Heavy attacks. While her performance is lower than expected, we are waiting to see how the fix to the Switch Stance bug will affect her before we act on her. As her performance was too high previously, and we are convinced that the Switch Stance bug directly hurt all the Assassins, we first want to see the effects of fixing the Switch Stance bug (in Patch 1.27), and only afterwards decide what we need to do, to ensure that she doesn’t end up being overtuned again.
You left out: dodge recovery nerf, light damage nerf, Zone damage nerf, guys you freaking nerfed her ON EVERYTHING. And if we consider that PK had a 58% Winrate overall, and Conq now has 60%, AND NOTHING IS DONE TO CONQ (see above...), this is getting less and less understandable...


Gladiator
Gladiator was 45% Win Rate in Season 5, and is 46% in Season 6. This is a very interesting case, as we’re aware that the Zone Attack is really good, and we believe the key to Gladiator’s power. While the stamina cost is really high (as compared to Conqueror’s Shield Bash), the Win Rate doesn’t seem to reflect the power of this move. It’s surprising to see this character consistently perform under expectations.
Yeah, shows how fast you are with balancing. 3 Seasons the Glad is sh*t now in Duel and Dom. Nothing was done and this statement shows that you have no plans to do anything. Ridiculous, again.


When we look at the dataset above, we see Shaman is the only Assassin in the top half of the Win Rate, and Shaman isn’t famous for her “light spam” at any level of play.
But you decided to nerf PK and Nobushi because they were too strong together with the Shaman. Both dropped to being almost unplayable, but hey, Shaman still doing fine. Nice balance decisions Bros...


Generally, the overall order of heroes ended up more or less the same as in Season 5.
Shows how little you understand your own game. Kensei, Raider and LB still rule in Dominion. When some other tactic comes up (Bleed Team) -> you nerf it into oblivion. But nothing is done about the everlasting Meta of Stampede / Impale / Bomb. Kensei has too wide arcs and deals too much damage, we keep telling you about these things for 2 seasons now...


Peacekeeper
Peacekeeper dropped in Win Rate and Pick Rate significantly. We will keep an eye out for her as things evolve – but we don’t want to buff her before seeing the impacts of the fix to the Switch Stance bug (which is fixed in Patch 1.27), so that we can all best understand that fix’s impact in isolation. So it’s important to see the result of the fix first, then determine what buff if any she needs.
Wow, you need two Seasons to admit that PK is sh*t now, and another one to maybe give her some love, yet Conq is the undefeated King in Duels since his Rework and Kensei is in Dom, but nothing is done. My Frustration Level rises over 9000....


Season 6 had some significant effects on the meta-game: Peacekeeper may have flipped from too-strong to too-weak

Peacekeeper will be the closest-watched hero – as we want to see where she ends in the first half of Season 7 before taking action. It seems likely a buff will be necessary.
At least you admit that you overnerfed her, but we told you before the Rework. Maybe you should listen to the community SOMETIMES...

CptMatsumaru
09-27-2018, 09:42 AM
"- Conq is still the Duel-King with a 60+% Winrate overall." True. Only with Ara i got a chance vs conq.

Kensei - meh, no really. ya, the new moveset is great, but in duell no the greatest.

My biggest Problem is the Lawbringer. that endless combo attacks my stamina, no chance with kensei etc.

Rest of all Heros are ok.

Edit: Maybe more dodge-range for Nobushi, and hyperarmor for valk like Ara(charge/jump attack)

Charmzzz
09-27-2018, 09:48 AM
"- Conq is still the Duel-King with a 60+% Winrate overall." True. Only with Ara i got a chance vs conq.

Kensei - meh, no really. ya, the new moveset is great, but in duell no the greatest.

My biggest Problem is the Lawbringer. that endless combo attacks my stamina, no chance with kensei etc.

Rest of all Heros are ok.

Edit: Maybe more dodge-range for Nobushi, and hyperarmor for valk like Ara(charge/jump attack)

- Kensei is 2nd with 54% Winrate in Duel. Not the greatest because that is Conq, sure, but still he is too strong compared to others.
- Kensei Dom Winrate tops the Charts with 54%. That is surely a too high impact in 4v4.
- Lawbringer is mediocre in Duel, the Dev's Smoke Bomb should be ignored.
- Rest of Heroes are ok? Nobushi, PK and Gladiator are sh*t in Duel, PK and Glad are sh*t in Dom. They are not "ok".

CptMatsumaru
09-27-2018, 09:56 AM
Kensei is 2nd with 54% Winrate in Duel.


Kensei is one of the most played heroes. That may explain the winrate.
My experience with the Kensei is based on my own gameplay. Kensei has long been my main, but he does not look good against the new Warden or Lawbringer.

And besides, the data is only measured by the top 5% players.

Charmzzz
09-27-2018, 10:12 AM
Kensei is 2nd with 54% Winrate in Duel.


Kensei is one of the most played heroes. That may explain the winrate.
My experience with the Kensei is based on my own gameplay. Kensei has long been my main, but he does not look good against the new Warden or Lawbringer.

And besides, the data is only measured by the top 5% players.

Uhm, you know that statistics work differently than "most picked = higher winrate"? Orochi and Warden got picked more frequently than Kensei, yet they are at 50 / 52% Winrate. Kensei is stronger than most of the roster due to several reasons which I could elaborate now, but I won't because you can read it up in plenty of threads here.


Below is a Matrix of 1v1 Duel matches played by the Top 2.5% of For Honor players on PC and Console combined during Season 6, according to our skill rating.
Top 2.5% of players for Duel, Top 4% for Dom. These players know how to play and they pick mostly Meta Heroes. I am one of the Top 4% in Dom, and I can even make PK work there, but that does not correlate to overall Winrates.

Ignoring statistics means you put your feelings over proven Data. Please, stop commenting with your feelings as arguments when I gave hard, statistical facts as evidence.

Siegfried-Z
09-27-2018, 10:19 AM
I'm really surprised Kensei goes 2nd in Duel ! He is not so strong in 1v1 in my 27 rep of experience with him, while he is a monster in 4v4 for sure.

But looking at the data, his win rate hasn't change from S5 : 54%

54% is not too strong, it is just that others goes down arround 49 and 51%.

I feel you for PK, for sure we were all expecting it.. they say they gonna buff her back after S7 stats if it still shows the same for her.. that's hard but just be patient :/

Pk is not my main but i am rep 11 with and enjoy playing her sometimes and would like to do so more often so hurry for a buff too ^^

ArchDukeInstinct
09-27-2018, 10:22 AM
Thankfully I installed flotation devices to my Conqueror's shield so he could survive this inundation of tears.

matt89connor
09-27-2018, 10:23 AM
what i don't understand is the fact that they don't want nerf bash cuz LB SHUGOKI can won by turtling, but still, on season 5 they start by say :reduce /remove the turtle meta.

In addition, they say that now, with switch guard stance bug fixed, assassins are OK?...no, zerk and orochi aren't OK, if you have 144 fps maybe you can block even PARRY those 400ms but under that FPS is only prediction with a magic sphere.

about pk: i like this rework is how assasins should be imo :hard to use, low dmg but many mix up and not unblockable or hyperarmor opening.

She has, BTW a very big problem:she has high cost of stamina for the heavies mixup that deal soo low dmg compared to the rest of the cast and this is bad .

CptMatsumaru
09-27-2018, 10:27 AM
are you mad, charmz?

chill.
Whether 2.5% in Duel or 4% in Dom or 5%. That does not matter.

You're so upset because it affects your PK.
You throw around statistics that are not even complete.
Let's do the following.
Did you count the leavers? No.
Disconnects? No.
How often do players leave a fight if they only see your rep or hero.
And yes. The more Kensei there are, the higher the winrate. Why:
More Kenseis also mean more good players among the Kenseis.
More Kenseis < more good players < higher winrate.

PK and Gladi are not bad heroes.
The only one who needs help right now is Nobushi.

It is not possible that all heroes are equally strong. It's not that all heroes have the same chance.

Otherwise we'll make it easy: Give all heroes the same Moveset and then the problem is solved.

You play Kensei and have a problem with the Warden?
Change Hero. Play Ara or Valk vs. Warden. Make fun.

What you are trying is not possible. I understand the frustration of the conquerors. But if he is not, it will be someone else.

Charmzzz
09-27-2018, 10:40 AM
what i don't understand is the fact that they don't want nerf bash cuz LB SHUGOKI can won by turtling, but still, on season 5 they start by say :reduce /remove the turtle meta.

In addition, they say that now, with switch guard stance bug fixed, assassins are OK?...no, zerk and orochi aren't OK, if you have 144 fps maybe you can block even PARRY those 400ms but under that FPS is only prediction with a magic sphere.
.

LB, Cent and Shugo did not even win against Conq btw, look at the Data and what I wrote about it. The Dev's completely misinterpreted the Statistics... LB, Cent and Shugo went up because PK and Zerker went down. Versus Conq they had the same bad matchup as anybody else except Shinobi (because he can fight out of range of the broken SB).

They stated, and I quoted them in my opening post, that 400ms Lights are meant to be unreactable! Did you even read my post?
The Guard Stance Switch Bug affected Assassins negatively because their 400ms Lights could be blocked on reaction, not prediction which is what they are meant to be.


are you mad, charmz?

chill.
Whether 2.5% in Duel or 4% in Dom or 5%. That does not matter.

You're so upset because it affects your PK.
You throw around statistics that are not even complete.
Let's do the following.
Did you count the leavers? No.
Disconnects? No.
How often do players leave a fight if they only see your rep or hero.
And yes. The more Kensei there are, the higher the winrate. Why:
More Kenseis also mean more good players among the Kenseis.
More Kenseis < more good players < higher winrate.

PK and Gladi are not bad heroes.
The only one who needs help right now is Nobushi.

I'm mad at the Dev's yes. They made alot of poor decisions even though we told them how bad they are, and it is clearly shown in the Data now.

Where do I throw around incomplete Statistics? I take the Statistics directly from their State of Balance Post: https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en-ca/news-community/164-335553-16/state-of-balance-season-6-recap

The rest of your post is just nonsense. Counting leavers? Why? Leavers on certain Characters will even out, because, well, you know, Statistics... Same with disconnects. Take 10000 Games, it will even out for sure.
More Kenseis also mean more bad players among Kenseis. You show again how little you understand about how Statistics work.

PK and Glad are the worst Heroes concerning overall Winrates now. Fact. Nobushi at least is mediocre in Dominion.

CptMatsumaru
09-27-2018, 10:46 AM
Disconnect = Free win.
Leaver = free win.
Chose Conq and you will see. Nobody want to fight vs Conq.
No.
The more players choose the Kensei and play with it longer, the higher the chance of winning.
He is and remains the most played hero with warden.


And again: 2.5% = complete statistics?

One should rather look at the top 25%.

With another words: the top 2,5% cant play with PK right now or chose annother Heros.

ChampionRuby50g
09-27-2018, 10:49 AM
Thankfully I installed flotation devices to my Conqueror's shield so he could survive this inundation of tears.

In my experience, only babies and those who are weak need floatation devices to survive, like a crutch. What a coincidence, Conq also has a massive crutch he can abuse to survive, who would’ve guessed.

Charmzzz
09-27-2018, 10:53 AM
Disconnect = Free win.
Leaver = free win.
Chose Conq and you will see. Nobody want to fight vs Conq.
No.
The more players choose the Kensei and play with it longer, the higher the chance of winning.
He is and remains the most played hero with warden.


And again: 2.5% = complete statistics?

One should rather look at the top 25%.

So Kensei Players never Disconnect?
So Kensei Players never Leave?
If there is a Conq in the opposing team, people will leave? How does that affect Kensei Winrate?
In Duel Warden and Orochi were picked more frequently, look at the Data please. And even that does NOT affect Winrates, you clearly have 0 idea how statistics work. Please, inform yourself or leave my Thread. Thanks.

Knight_Raime
09-27-2018, 10:58 AM
They are correct in not wanting to nerf bash on conq. However not all of their views are accurate. They don't seem to understand that the majority of conq's strength comes from his option selects.
They can't really nerf option selects as a whole anyway. And if they nerfed his bash he'd be just as "cancerous" because all you'd see (from good conqs anyway) is hyper defensive play. Where you'll never get a hit in because they just option select out of everything.

Some of the other statements they've made seems like they're kind of disconnected. Like their stance on lawbringer is pretty sad. Or how they are basically saying "lul it's just in your head" with ara's dash nerf. When the reason the nerf was big is because it prevents him from chaining dodges to avoid attacks like highlander does. They either were un aware of this or don't wish to bring it up to further fuel the fire on the state of aramusha. The acknowledgement of glads state is also pretty sad.

It really does make me question if they do actually look at feedback from top tier players. Because a lot of these things would have easily been brought up to them. Anyway. I don't really agree with a lot of what charmz is going off about here. But i'm happy they finally acknowledge pk's poor state for him. Hopefully she gets better again sometime soon.

CptMatsumaru
09-27-2018, 11:00 AM
Ha ha ha.

I have no idea about statistics?
But you mean, with 2.5% of a statistic you can tell me, what goes wrong. Aha.

A winrate alone will never bring the balance between the heroes.
It just shows which hero is currently trend. And if the top 1-2% of players choose the conqueror, they will be adjusted because they win too often because they are good. Aha.
So the top 2,5% players decide how the balance will be in the future.

I bet if the top 1% players would now choose PK, it would soon be weakened again. Why? Just because they play well.

But you have a clue.
Then go ahead.


Edit for Charmzzzzzzzzz: Look pickrate = winrate. (without conq) most player fight with kensei and warden = most wins.

ChampionRuby50g
09-27-2018, 11:09 AM
Their attitude on LB is disgusting. The only reason he appears to perform well is due to high health, which enables him to simply wear down his opponents with block shove. The devs think that because of a number on a screen they don’t need to do anything, but if they actually went out and played their game they’d realise how bad he is. 0 offensive options, block shove which can easily be countered and if the opponent rolls away and ends up OOS, not a problem! Because LB has 0 OOS pressure, and will continue to for a while because the dev team are too busy thinking the stats are the be all end all.

LB went up a couple of spots despite 0 changes, afaik, and they think it’s all fine and dandy. Well it’s not.

They also mention reddit in the blog post, again completely blindsiding the forum community despite the literal hours of effort people on here go through to try and improve the game in the hope the dev team might see it. Memes give more important balance data it seems.

Knight_Raime
09-27-2018, 11:15 AM
Their attitude on LB is disgusting. The only reason he appears to perform well is due to high health, which enables him to simply wear down his opponents with block shove. The devs think that because of a number on a screen they don’t need to do anything, but if they actually went out and played their game they’d realise how bad he is. 0 offensive options, block shove which can easily be countered and if the opponent rolls away and ends up OOS, not a problem! Because LB has 0 OOS pressure, and will continue to for a while because the dev team are too busy thinking the stats are the be all end all.

LB went up a couple of spots despite 0 changes, afaik, and they think it’s all fine and dandy. Well it’s not.

They also mention reddit in the blog post, again completely blindsiding the forum community despite the literal hours of effort people on here go through to try and improve the game in the hope the dev team might see it. Memes give more important balance data it seems.

It's funny that back in season 5? they openly acknowledged how bad shove on block was and that they wanted to remove it. But only when it came with the other changes down the line. Now they're saying he's fine "oh but we'll keep an eye on him." Same attitude with valk. Released her saying they were not done with her and she was a work in progress. Now she's "fine" but they'll "keep an eye on her."

It just feels like they bit off more than they could handle when it comes to the reworks. And they're justifying their refusal to do the absolute most they should be doing (even the current reworks are not as good as they should be) with half cocked statements like these. I'd rather they just say they want to take a break and focus on new content so they can come back to the old roster (including dlc heros) with fresh eyes. Because at this point I really don't believe them anymore.

EDIT: Let the record show i've stated more than once that focusing on win/loss/pick rate has always been a bad idea. As it shows in other games. And now this is what's happening with for honor.

Haplo_Bane
09-27-2018, 11:31 AM
Well, to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and everyone's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say.

Charmzzz
09-27-2018, 11:59 AM
Ha ha ha.

I have no idea about statistics?
But you mean, with 2.5% of a statistic you can tell me, what goes wrong. Aha.

A winrate alone will never bring the balance between the heroes.
It just shows which hero is currently trend. And if the top 1-2% of players choose the conqueror, they will be adjusted because they win too often because they are good. Aha.
So the top 2,5% players decide how the balance will be in the future.

I bet if the top 1% players would now choose PK, it would soon be weakened again. Why? Just because they play well.

But you have a clue.
Then go ahead.


Edit for Charmzzzzzzzzz: Look pickrate = winrate. (without conq) most player fight with kensei and warden = most wins.

The Top 2.5% of players know more about the game mechanics, what can be abused and how, than average or below average players. That's why they have risen to the Top 2.5% in the first place...

I am aware that Winrates are not the end all be all when it comes to balance, but they are a good indicator where the different Heroes are located balance-wise.

Pickrate shows the flavor of the month, not Winrate. Winrate shows which Hero has more impact in Dom or has advantages in Duel over other Heroes. The Top 2.5% do not decide how the balance will be, they are just indicators of what can be done on certain Heroes when played to their full potential.

Even Top 1% of players cannot bring up PK Winrate due to her being overnerfed on all fronts. There are only 2 Duel picks that PK has a positive Winrate against: Gladiator and Nobushi. Gladiator has the poorest defense and his Zone can be countered easily with a PK Zone on reaction. Nobushi is just too slow. To every other pick the PK looses badly.

And still, pickrate is not equal to winrate. To claim that Winrate would correlate to Pickrate is such nonsense, you should really take a Statistics Course to get your facts straight.

I know you are defending your Main here (Kensei and Raider most played...), and I understand that. But that does not negate the fact that Kensei was Top 1 in Dominion and Top 2 in Duel last season. He clearly has an advantage due to his range and damage numbers.

Specialkha
09-27-2018, 12:01 PM
Ha ha ha.

I have no idea about statistics?
But you mean, with 2.5% of a statistic you can tell me, what goes wrong. Aha.

A winrate alone will never bring the balance between the heroes.
It just shows which hero is currently trend. And if the top 1-2% of players choose the conqueror, they will be adjusted because they win too often because they are good. Aha.
So the top 2,5% players decide how the balance will be in the future.

I bet if the top 1% players would now choose PK, it would soon be weakened again. Why? Just because they play well.

But you have a clue.
Then go ahead.


Edit for Charmzzzzzzzzz: Look pickrate = winrate. (without conq) most player fight with kensei and warden = most wins.

Why should we count disconnect or leave? It is stupid. Overall, it will even out.

Conq is by far the best hero and need nerf. I do not mind the PK at the bottom, ppl like Charmzzz have been abusing her for a year and told others to git gud, I do not mind if she stays at the bottom a little while.

CptMatsumaru
09-27-2018, 12:08 PM
Nobody want to play vs a turtle player. = leave. free win for Conq. but ok. dont count it.

ya, reduce shieldbash, and the conq will turtle more. gg.

get valk, dodge the shieldbash and finish. same with warden.

maybe more dogde attacks for all heros.

Charmzzz
09-27-2018, 12:08 PM
Anyway. I don't really agree with a lot of what charmz is going off about here. But i'm happy they finally acknowledge pk's poor state for him. Hopefully she gets better again sometime soon.

Where do you disagree? I am really interested!

Siegfried-Z
09-27-2018, 01:06 PM
Nobody want to play vs a turtle player. = leave. free win for Conq. but ok. dont count it.

ya, reduce shieldbash, and the conq will turtle more. gg.

get valk, dodge the shieldbash and finish. same with warden.

maybe more dogde attacks for all heros.

Man, you're saying things based on a minus argue.. winrate doesn't results as a consequence of a good or bad pick rate at all.

Try, their are not so much correlation between it just looking at the data. And don't forget many char has a good pick rate because what? because they are good ;)

DrinkinMyStella
09-27-2018, 01:28 PM
you know what who cares anymore, play or don't play and just accept this game will not reach any state of balance that we want, its game game that will forever have ups and downs and more downs than ups

DefiledDragon
09-27-2018, 01:35 PM
Stella's right. It's clear at this point that the designers have no clue whatsoever how to balance the roster of a fighting game and it's simply a question of whether or not you enjoy the game enough to put up with the abysmal balancing, because it's not going anywhere.

Charmzzz
09-27-2018, 01:39 PM
you know what who cares anymore, play or don't play and just accept this game will not reach any state of balance that we want, its game game that will forever have ups and downs and more downs than ups

I did care for a long time now, and I vent my frustration about the Dev's decision after every "State of Balance", haha, what a contradiction that title is... But you are right, this game will never get to the point of being balanced, even in the slightest possible way. Core mechanics are flawed and everything gets a bandaid instead of real fixes.

I will drop it when something else that catched my eye is released (RDR2 on PC, Cyberpunk 2077 or Camelot Unchained atm).

The_B0G_
09-27-2018, 02:01 PM
The news on conq not getting touched is ridiculous. "We know he's OP, but won't fix him" is basically their stance, saying the worst 3 characters in the game for turtling is the answer to beating him, great job devs, the 3 characters with absolutely no safe offensive options are the best at dealing with conq... even though winrates say differently.


Then there is this gem of a write up about light spam, and I never heard anything about assassin meta on the forums yet, that must be from the memetards on reddit, they aren't connected issues.

"An issue we read about from non-top tier players is that they talk about a “light spam”, or an “assassin meta”. This has been a difficulty to approach balancing-wise for us, since these complaints often drown out the evidence of how weak “light spam” is at the top level of play. When we look at the dataset above, we see Shaman is the only Assassin in the top half of the Win Rate, and Shaman isn’t famous for her “light spam” at any level of play.

In presenting our data here, we want players to understand that “light spam”, while annoying, doesn’t actually yield overpowered characters. Learning to combat such offense is an important step for a player to improve their For Honor skillset. As our intention is to keep pushing 1v1 combat into a meta in which offense is more viable, it’s important that the community understand where we stand on this topic."

This is a perfect example of the devs only seeing this game as a PC platform game, they mark down people who bring up concerns about light spam as "non-top tier players" problem, even though the vast majority of player base is on console, where light spam is the problem, I'm not saying this is all because 60 fps vs 30 fps, it has many contributors, they mark the issue up to a learn to play problem, please explain to me how you can learn to predict every light an Orochi will spam out, should I buy a crystal ball?

PC balance, does not work for console, I would love to see what the winrates and stats are on console vs pc, I'm sure we'll never see it though, that would show just how different the two platforms are, I would bet that most of the 10% the Orochi got in winrate was from consoles and not PC.


TLDR: The game keeps getting worse on console, all changes and balances are made from the top-tier player statistics, which are undoubtedly from the PC platform for the most part, seeing as how the game is balanced for it. The state of balance for this season was a big eye opener for me, I'm beginning to lose all faith that this game will get any better, in another year this will be Dynasty Warriors, no more mind games, just everyone smashing out unblockable bashes and unreactable combos that are too fast to defend against.

Charmzzz
09-27-2018, 02:08 PM
This is a perfect example of the devs only seeing this game as a PC platform game, they mark down people who bring up concerns about light spam as "non-top tier players" problem, even though the vast majority of player base is on console, where light spam is the problem, I'm not saying this is all because 60 fps vs 30 fps, it has many contributors, they mark the issue up to a learn to play problem, please explain to me how you can learn to predict every light an Orochi will spam out, should I buy a crystal ball?

PC balance, does not work for console, I would love to see what the winrates and stats are on console vs pc, I'm sure we'll never see it though, that would show just how different the two platforms are, I would bet that most of the 10% the Orochi got in winrate was from consoles and not PC.


TLDR: The game keeps getting worse on console, all changes and balances are made from the top-tier player statistics, which are undoubtedly from the PC platform for the most part, seeing as how the game is balanced for it. The state of balance for this season was a big eye opener for me, I'm beginning to lose all faith that this game will get any better, in another year this will be Dynasty Warriors, no more mind games, just everyone smashing out unblockable bashes and unreactable combos that are too fast to defend against.

Statistics are taken both from Console and PC, so it might be that Light Spam is not a guaranteed win in high level play on Console, too. Just think about that as a possibility.

And 400ms Lights are MEANT to be unreactable, both on PC and Console. They stated that in this Recap and I quoted it. 400ms Lights are meant to be predicted, not reacted to. So you have to guess where the followup Light will be, switch your guard (or leave it) and have a 33% change of being right. That is the offensive concept of PK, Orochi and Zerker as they do not have unblockable openers to be aggressive.

Klingentaenz3r
09-27-2018, 02:13 PM
Side Dodge Normalization: We adjusted the side dodge recovery of all heroes to be 600ms – some heroes now have faster recovery while some have slower recovery.

What does that mean? Did you or did you NOT normalize Side Dodge recoveries? That sentence is contrary in its meaning.

.

Should read like this: "We adjusted the side dodge recovery of all heroes to be 600ms – some heroes now have faster recovery while some have slower recovery THAN BEFORE
There you go.






"Conqueror
Conqueror still extremely strong in 1v1. The ability to do a forward dodge and Shield Bash or Guard Break can impose good pressure across the cast. However – what’s interesting here is that while the Conqueror is strong for that reason – when you look at the rest of the top list, they mostly want to counter-attack. The suspicion is that the other top characters (especially Centurion, Lawbringer, Shugoki) would beat Conquerors by countering, and not by initiating combat. This is a large reason for the hesitancy to nerf Conqueror’s Shield Bash – while it’s a difficult pressure tool to deal with, we do need pressuring attacks that force reactions, and control the pace of combat. Instead of nerfing the strong tools, we prefer to continue to improve the weak tools."

Uhm, what!? You admit that Conq Bash is a strong tool (it ignores core mechanic rules btw...) but hesitate to nerf it? WHY the f*ck??? Your other 3 "top characters", namely Shugo / LB / Cent, DO NOT BEAT Conq in Winrate. Did you even look at the Data? Conq beats them easily with 61 (Shugo and Cent) or even 68 (vs LB!!!) %. This whole paragraph is plainly ridiculous and pathetic.
.

to be fair: The writing is pathetic and more misleading than actually clear. However it should be obvious for you that with top characters they simple refer to the 1v1 table and the given results there. That is not stating anything about the characters being high tier or not. Plus I believe that what the message they tried here to convey was simply that they have a feeling conq beats everyone easily with his offense whilst those others mentioned can only win against conq IF they counter his play somehow since their own offense cannot dictate the pace in that match up AND state that rather than making them better at counter attacking they would like to improve their own pressure tools (whilst also stating that they find conqs pressure tool quite noice as it is :P)

To me this whole thing showed that the statistics are somewhat incredibly flawed (I never took them too seriously to begin with as they don't reflect on the tier lists I would agree to).

Given the time it took until we got this I was expecting a much more detailed and reflected post on this.

The_B0G_
09-27-2018, 02:27 PM
Statistics are taken both from Console and PC, so it might be that Light Spam is not a guaranteed win in high level play on Console, too. Just think about that as a possibility.

And 400ms Lights are MEANT to be unreactable, both on PC and Console. They stated that in this Recap and I quoted it. 400ms Lights are meant to be predicted, not reacted to. So you have to guess where the followup Light will be, switch your guard (or leave it) and have a 33% change of being right. That is the offensive concept of PK, Orochi and Zerker as they do not have unblockable openers to be aggressive.

That's only for the 400 ms attacks though, on console with delay and lag, even the 500 ms attacks are difficult to block unless it's the starter of the chain, that's what I'm trying to get across, the game isn't balanced for console. I have friends that used to play console and have switched over to PC, when they come back to play with me they all notice how different the gameplay is, and how strong light spam is compared to PC, and that gameplay is way more aggressive in general.

I know they won't ever balance seperately for both because they can't even balance PC right, but it will be the end of the game on console because of it. Maybe not right away, but this game isn't exactly noob friendly so new players that stick around are rare and long time players are slowly giving up hope for the game we've been wishing for.

Like others have said, winrate numbers isn't the end all discussion on balance, statistic. LB is garbage unless you turtle with him. They state they are trying to make the game more offensive minded, yet a few paragraphs before saying that they say the conq can be beaten by arguably the 3 weakest heroes in the game by turtling.

The devs seem completely lost. Just like my hopes that this game will improve.

GayForShugoki
09-27-2018, 03:36 PM
what i don't understand is the fact that they don't want nerf bash cuz LB SHUGOKI can won by turtling, but still, on season 5 they start by say :reduce /remove the turtle meta.

In addition, they say that now, with switch guard stance bug fixed, assassins are OK?...no, zerk and orochi aren't OK, if you have 144 fps maybe you can block even PARRY those 400ms but under that FPS is only prediction with a magic sphere.

about pk: i like this rework is how assasins should be imo :hard to use, low dmg but many mix up and not unblockable or hyperarmor opening.

She has, BTW a very big problem:she has high cost of stamina for the heavies mixup that deal soo low dmg compared to the rest of the cast and this is bad .

You have it backwards with assassins. It’s in their name, to be honest. They should assassinate, excelling in 1v1’s, but being relatively bad in teamfights. Hard to play. Hard to master. Insane, unmatched burst damage with combos.

bhitrock
09-27-2018, 03:47 PM
I really hope they are going to tell us something about this 'need for balance' in the next Warriors'Den. For what I think, I would even trade our 'weekly content' with some balance changes (if the devs don't do them because "they don't have the time with all the marching-fire stuff going on").

yfkutfui
09-27-2018, 04:18 PM
LOLzzzzz,

anyone around since S1 can only chuckle and shake their head to hear a PK whinge and whine about OP characters,

Sneakly20
09-27-2018, 04:29 PM
LOLzzzzz,

anyone around since S1 can only chuckle and shake their head to hear a PK whinge and whine about OP characters,

Except that a lot of them would probably prefer the old pk being op vs the ridiculousness we have now.

They ripped PK to shreds and the data shows it. They are doing too much wrong or looking at it the wrong way for several characters.

In fact the data doesn’t add up. Why is cent so high? Why are they are surprised about glad low performance?

a8modeus
09-27-2018, 04:46 PM
I main pk for a while(after her nerf) and she really weak. I tried kensei and valk in ranked, and perform with them better, than pk. It's not because i'm bad, it's because pk s**k. Nobu, PK, Shu - they all in the same boat now. I know i'm x2 better(at minimum) when i won ranked as pk. That's not fair...

ps: I can make pk work in Dom, but to do that i must enable tryhard mode =_= There something wrong if char weak in every mode of the game.

DrinkinMyStella
09-27-2018, 04:51 PM
season 1 was then best season, the most fun I had in this entire game was season 1, what changed from then till now? DLC heroes with crazy movesets, stun locking, lots of unblockables, soft feints left and right and everything became so over complicated which has had a domino effect on how the state of balance is now and how we played the game so that is the sole reason this game will never be balanced probably because they are still trying to figure how to keep the old heroes up to date with the new ones, I was happier with the old mechanics and the OG roster, yes ok they still would haven needed to buff and nerf heroes all the time but not to the point where full reworks were needed sometimes simple is better.

Mighty_Mackerel
09-27-2018, 07:39 PM
I had faith in the devs for a while after changes were slowly being made to help improve the game... but their post on the state of balance with the game only proves that my faith was misplaced. So apparently we've seen that the devs are misinterpreting their own data, and even if they weren't, making changes solely based off of looking at numbers on a chart that represents the top 2.5 percent of the player base on both PC and console is a highly flawed way of going about things. They don't listen to their players and apparently they don't even play their own game for more than two and a half minutes... we're doomed.

IlluminatiIzzy
09-27-2018, 10:50 PM
You know what'd be great? If whoever the f*** is in charge of balancing this game actually played it. For a week. Two weeks. Stop looking at data and listen to the community that plays the game and that experiences the changes you make (or don't, in many cases).

Cyroy95
09-27-2018, 11:10 PM
I like that they're basically telling us that Gladiator is so low on the rankings because we don't spam his zone enough... Like really? I hate his zone as a Gladiator main, just give him better mix-ups and nerf that zone-attack. I don't want to rely on a broken move.

ChampionRuby50g
09-27-2018, 11:12 PM
It's funny that back in season 5? they openly acknowledged how bad shove on block was and that they wanted to remove it. But only when it came with the other changes down the line. Now they're saying he's fine "oh but we'll keep an eye on him." Same attitude with valk. Released her saying they were not done with her and she was a work in progress. Now she's "fine" but they'll "keep an eye on her."

It just feels like they bit off more than they could handle when it comes to the reworks. And they're justifying their refusal to do the absolute most they should be doing (even the current reworks are not as good as they should be) with half cocked statements like these. I'd rather they just say they want to take a break and focus on new content so they can come back to the old roster (including dlc heros) with fresh eyes. Because at this point I really don't believe them anymore.

EDIT: Let the record show i've stated more than once that focusing on win/loss/pick rate has always been a bad idea. As it shows in other games. And now this is what's happening with for honor.

Yeah I remember them saying that, roughly around Season 5. Would have been after season 4 when they announced that they where taking a season off to focus on the health of the game. I really can’t undersgand what would make the devs suddenly ignore something they admitted was broken. Was it because LB went from 10th to 6th? If anything that would be because of block shove.

Everything they’ve done up until this point just reeks of incompetence. They don’t know How to improve the original roster. They don’t know how to balance them. They don’t know to rectify their mistakes and admit when they are wrong. They don’t know how to properly communicate with their community, meaning open discussion with players about how characters are performing, then working off of that. Instead they look at a stat sheet, which only shows half the picture, say everything is all well and good, you are just playing your hero wrong. You can really tell it’s a young developer team. They had a good idea for a game, but each passing month they seem determined to drive it into the ground.

Illyrian_King
09-28-2018, 12:18 AM
Poor Lawbringer.

ArchDukeInstinct
09-28-2018, 05:01 AM
This thread summarized in one image:

https://i.imgur.com/FTkPioh.jpg

DrinkinMyStella
09-28-2018, 07:53 AM
This thread summarized in one image:

https://i.imgur.com/FTkPioh.jpg

lmao this is so true, PK was once upon a time the best duelist in the game and you didn't even have to be good, its funny how the tides have turned but still PK needs some more damage and that alone should be enough to bring her up to standard.

Charmzzz
09-28-2018, 08:24 AM
Haha, that picture is really great. Had a good laugh. But you forgot to say that Conq had an overall Winrate of 50% in S4, then 60% in S5 and S6.

Conclusion: revert the PK Nerfs and we are back at an almost perfect 50:50 between those 2. I would love to face you then and zone option select the sh*t out of you. ;)

Goat_of_Vermund
09-28-2018, 11:02 AM
How would you optionselect a shieldbash? The old pk would be a bit better matchup for the new conq, but she would fall.

Btw, if anyone thinks pk deserves to be bad for being first for a time, think about shugoki with oni charge tackle for free 40 damage heavy, that was the most broken thing ever walking For Honor's battlefields. He would destroy any conq in seconds. Other old top tiers: warlord, unlock nobushi, centurion s2. If the pk deserves this, all of them are, even if you did not abuse their optimal playstyle.

Charmzzz
09-28-2018, 11:55 AM
How would you optionselect a shieldbash? The old pk would be a bit better matchup for the new conq, but she would fall.

Btw, if anyone thinks pk deserves to be bad for being first for a time, think about shugoki with oni charge tackle for free 40 damage heavy, that was the most broken thing ever walking For Honor's battlefields. He would destroy any conq in seconds. Other old top tiers: warlord, unlock nobushi, centurion s2. If the pk deserves this, all of them are, even if you did not abuse their optimal playstyle.

PK Zone is 400ms, so if the Conq dodges forward I immediately press the Zone input, either his GB and his SB would fail against it. He cannot parry it, too, because the guard is down while dodging. I can do this in the live game, but after 2 times I am nearly OOS and did only 30 Damage with it, and then im f*cked. ^^

EIGHTYYARDS NYC
09-28-2018, 06:47 PM
Long live the SHIELD BASH!!