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ModernWaffle
09-19-2018, 03:59 PM
So after giving this a bit of thought, I finally realise why Odyssey feels like such a fundamental deviation to Origins (note: longer post ahead).

Before I go into my analysis, I just want to point out that the intention of this thread is not to provide further heat on Odyssey; only until the game is released can it be fully judged and there’s no defining evidence that proves it won’t have widely positive reception or signal a new direction that people will approve of.

That being said, my analysis is going to point out how I believe Odyssey is a complete deviation to Origins, and although it’s clear that the former is not a direct sequel to Origins, I would argue that it’s not even a spiritual successor.


Gameplay:

Below is a condensed list of what I consider as most of Origins’ main features and how Odyssey addresses each:

Phylakes – these archetype enemies return in the form of Mercenaries in Odyssey, but now they actively chase you and can attack in groups. I count this as a retained feature, but with limited change.

Combat – I see combat in the two games as mostly identical, with Odyssey adding an ‘abilities wheel’ that you can use with recharge bars. Another retained feature with a nice addition, but limited change nonetheless

Naval – apart from using your boat for actual map navigation and boarding enemy ships (both of which were introduced as new mechanics in Black Flag first), I haven’t seen anything so far that is a proper development from Origins’ naval combat specifically so I take it as limited change

Context of boss fights – in Origins fantastical boss fights were put in context of dream-like sequences (e.g. the big snake), or outside of the campaign/side missions to be assumed as ‘non-canon’ (e.g. trial bosses)

In contrast, Odyssey presents the Medusa fight as happening in physical reality in a side quest. The move from light fantasy to literal fantasy is a development from a feature of Origins, but to me this is a bad move because it unnecessarily shifts AC into more unrealistic territory (whereas before we had the fantastical but it was contained within out of body experiences as a better compromise). Therefore, this is a negative change

Layla – the MD protagonist returns but Layla was a very forgettable element of Origins. Her only development comes from losing a friend that doesn’t even get screen time. A retained element, but equally lacking in significance since she isn’t a defining feature in Origins to begin with

Tombs – this could be incorrect, but I haven’t seen evidence yet to suggest they’ve done anything new with tomb exploration etc. So unless I’m wrong about this it’s an unchanged feature

Senu – replaced by Icarus, same as above point on tombs, unchanged feature



What Odyssey does mainly focus on however is largely unconnected to Origins:

-Dialogue options
-Multiple endings
-Romance options
-A world integrated war system

So in terms of gameplay alone, Odyssey implements several new features that wasn’t initiated in Origins and at best, only keeps some of the latter’s elements exactly as they were before (essentially).

___________________________


Narrative:

Odyssey seems like it's being marketed as detailing the real ‘Origins’ of AC rather than the game titled exactly that. To me, it counteracts the whole purpose of Origins’ existence.

Origins had a popular protagonist in Bayek who is replaced by two characters who don’t have an obvious connection to either Assassins or Templars. They might not be bad characters, but they don’t have an obvious connection to the AC universe and may be seen just as isolated mercenaries of the time period explored.

Some of the narrative that does focus on the AC universe in Odyssey, i.e. information on the First Civilisation and first hidden blade are aspects that I honestly expected to see clarified in Origins. The fact that they are exploring it now suggests that the previous marketing tagline they used ‘it all starts with one’ was highly inaccurate as Bayek had not started everything after all.

Odyssey might relate to the Order of the Ancients, but again there’s little evidence to suggest this right now apart from fan speculation so it’s not much to go on.

___________________________


The Black Flag-Syndicate and Origins-Odyssey Analogy

My last point focuses on the significance of Origins being made by BF’s team and Odyssey by Syndicate’s.

BF Context:
-This game has a direct connection to our previous protagonists, Haytham and Connor, focusing on Edward
-It highlights AC3’s most innovative feature of naval warfare by basing the whole game on this aspect (i.e. it shows faith in AC3’s mechanics)
-BF is now remembered as one of the best AC games, even comparable to AC2 in some cases
-BF may be seen as a spin-off, but its deviation is not that weird when you realise that it was released straight after the end of the original trilogy. At the time it merely appeared that Ubisoft wanted to create a one-off spin-off game for the franchise

In this respect, Origins is comparable to BF in how it consciously takes into account of previous AC games in gameplay and story whilst being seen as a product that innovated the series in its own way.


Syndicate Context:
-This game had to sell well to overcome Unity’s poor launch; it doesn’t commemorate its predecessor, it tries to distance itself as much as possible by limiting features that was introduced in the latter (smaller crowds, reduction of building interiors, new combat etc.)
-It introduces new protagonists that have no connection to Arno or his story
-Syndicate received positive reviews, but sold the least amount of copies of any AC game (except for Rogue) and did not receive that much attention post launch
-Syndicate released just before the two-year break when the franchise would be reinvented in Origins

Through this analysis, Odyssey in comparable to Syndicate, which is hesitant to embrace its connections to its predecessor and stands as most separate to the rest of the franchise. The news of a break in 2019 also suggests that like Syndicate, Odyssey will be not be followed up in the following year by a sequel and that there may be another overhaul to the franchise in 2020 akin to Origins.

______________________________


Conclusion

As these lists show, BF and Syndicate largely juxtapose each other in multiple ways and hence I find it weird that we have Syndicate’s team carrying on the vision of Origins and the work of BF’s team.

Now that Unity’s team has supposedly disbanded, it’s like there’s a gap in transition. In many ways, I feel that the jump from Origins to Odyssey is like seeing Syndicate being released as BF’s successor (figuratively speaking) – two games that have vastly different creative visions, by teams that have different development experience, and which gained opposite reception and status following release.

It’s also interesting how graphically, Origins and Odyssey looks similar in the same vein as ACII and Brotherhood with some reused assets and similar geographical location, but whereas the former is closely tied together through Ezio and Desmond, Odyssey can only be seen as a loose spiritual successor to Origins, if that.

I’m curious to see other people’s thoughts on this and whether you approve or disapprove of Ubisoft moving away from the fundamental principles that made BF and Origins what they are.


TL: DR Syndicate and Odyssey are both games that embrace a different vision to their immediate predecessors, but whereas I can see why they had to deviate from Unity, I can’t explain why they’re trying to distance themselves to Origins, which is in my view a strong spiritual successor to the widely popular BF

ermacos
09-19-2018, 05:00 PM
Phylakes : Did you know that the word alone Phylakes is Hellenic? Which means bodyguards. or guards. (whatever ends as "ES" - PhylakES it means many guards...

Here is the wikipedia about the word phylakas https://el.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%86%CF%8D%CE%BB%CE%B1%CE%BA%CE%B1%CF%82

drop the link in google translate. Jail in Hellas is called as Phylaki - φυλακη

and phylakas in ancient Hellenic is phylaks


The so called mercenaries you call are also Phylaks because in order to have a bodyguard you must pay him correct, that’s what mercenaries are? I am certain your confusion comes in the luck of your Greek knowledge. If you could speak Greek, it would so much easy to understand things about the game.

Naval : the new mechanic I saw in Odyssey compared with blag flag, in blag flag you could gather materials and upgrade tiers, same part of the ship but higher tier. In Odyssey the items/parts of the ship are drops? or craftable items? It is like dressing up your character with empty boxes and you drop in the better items that upgrade your ship. So you change one part for another part, you dont upgrade the current thing into a higher tier... That gives more space for better modifications?

If you undress your character he is naked correct (??) and you dress him up with different cloths better ones or different looks? Same applies to the ship, you can remove all and be a naked ship..

Context of boss fights From the gameplay I ve seen and the artifacts of AC are alien in origin correct? Mythological creatures (once again I will type it down), it is not fantasy as you may think in english. It is real stories/deities/creatures transferred from a word of mouth into print. Thats the meaning of MYTH. That means they may have a metaphoric manner and expression but that doesnt mean they are fantasy or sci-fi.

SCI-FI/fantasy does not represent mythology.

Sci-fi/fantasy = phantasia (φαντασία) in Hellenic.

So yeah once again, the luck of knowledge of people who cannot speak Hellenic and they try to decode Hellenic stuff, they always fall into the same traps. Because you dont know the true meanings of it! You have to learn Hellenic then start investigating (what myths are, what Phylakes are, etc, then you will come into a much much valid conclusion).

quanzaizai
09-19-2018, 07:10 PM
1 more week to go. I love everything about this game, ready to wait for deep deep sale lol, I'm poor as fuc :(

ModernWaffle
09-19-2018, 07:57 PM
Phylakes The so called mercenaries you call are also Phylaks because in order to have a bodyguard you must pay him correct, that’s what mercenaries are? I am certain your confusion comes in the luck of your Greek knowledge. If you could speak Greek, it would so much easy to understand things about the game.

It's not what I called them, Ubisoft stated that they are 'mercenaries' out to hunt for your bounty once you have higher notoriety. In gameplay mechanics they are similar to Phylakes though which I was pointing out, I wasn't trying to argue that they were fundamentally different, in fact the opposite.


So yeah once again, the luck of knowledge of people who cannot speak Hellenic and they try to decode Hellenic stuff, they always fall into the same traps. I don't really understand the rest of your points nor your final sentences. I wasn't trying to decode 'greek' stuff anywhere nor does it have any direct relevance to what I'm talking about. You don't need a deep knowledge of 'Hellenic' to comment about the features in Odyssey. Sorry but your tone just comes across as unnecessarily pretentious.


I am certain your confusion comes in the luck of your Greek knowledge

The irony...

ModernWaffle
09-19-2018, 08:06 PM
1 more week to go. I love everything about this game, ready to wait for deep deep sale lol, I'm poor as fuc :(

Alright, fair enough, but it doesn't exactly relate to the topic of this thread...

ermacos
09-19-2018, 08:39 PM
It's not what I called them, Ubisoft stated that they are 'mercenaries' out to hunt for your bounty once you have higher notoriety. In gameplay mechanics they are similar to Phylakes though which I was pointing out, I wasn't trying to argue that they were fundamentally different, in fact the opposite.

I don't really understand the rest of your points nor your final sentences. I wasn't trying to decode 'greek' stuff anywhere nor does it have any direct relevance to what I'm talking about. You don't need a deep knowledge of 'Hellenic' to comment about the features in Odyssey. Sorry but your tone just comes across as unnecessarily pretentious.



The irony...

The rest of the thing you cannot understand is because you have not idea what MYTHOLOGY is..

The bellow paragraph of yours proves it :

" Context of boss fights – in Origins’ fantastical boss fights were put in context of illusions and dreams (e.g. the big snake), or outside of the campaign/side missions to be assumed as ‘non-canon’ (e.g. trial bosses)

In contrast, Odyssey presents the Medusa fight as happening in physical reality in a side quest. The move from light fantasy to literal fantasy is a development from a feature of Origins, but to me this is a bad move because it unnecessarily shifts AC into more unrealistic territory (whereas before we had the fantastical but it was contained within ‘illusions/dreams’ as a better compromise). Therefore, this is a negative change"

Medusa is a mythological creature that represents something logical, not a fantasy as you call it. So if you read the things you couldnt understand in the prev message, I give the definition of what Myths are.
You baptize mythology as " light fantasy to literal fantasy " so first go learn what mythology is.. Because you dont know what is what.

Myth is the first logical expression of man, in the ancient Greek meaning, the myth is a term identical to the word “reason”. So myth was everything that was said by mouth. After the 1 millenia bc myth was replaced by the element of logic in the ancient world and this is what we call today as historical facts. Because they added names, date and essense of the events.

The myth, therefore, is the ancient thought of the ancient man, which lacks some basic notions such as essence, causality and time of the events. Instead myths represent events in a more poetic and metaphoric manner/expression. An example, Homer considered an insult to tell him that his myth is a fairytale. Is like calling Homer a crook infront of his face..

So all mythological creatures and stories do represent real events expressed in a different logic with codes, with symbols with a metaphoric expression.

cawatrooper9
09-19-2018, 08:59 PM
ermacos, I think the point ModernWaffle is making isn't that mythology is in the fantasy genre (though it is fantastical), but that the way that supernatural events occur seemingly happen in two different ways in Origins and Odyssey.

ModernWaffle
09-19-2018, 09:07 PM
The rest of the thing you cannot understand is because you have not idea what MYTHOLOGY is..

No I meant it's because your English isn't very coherent. I didn't want to be impolite since I'm assuming it's not your first language so I didn't bring attention to it earlier. I know what mythology is and some people consider myths to be real and others as false stories / the impossible (i.e. fantasy) like me. Both are 'valid' views since you can't prove it either way. I don't know why you started bringing up 'sci-fi' I never used that word in my OP.

But besides that, the way you are trying to address my overall argument through tenuous criticisms of my use of language (when others are being mindful not to be rude in pointing out your spelling and grammar mistakes) rather than the actual points I'm making indicates to me that I can't have a proper discussion with you so I'm leaving this as my last comment in this conversation.


ermacos, I think the point ModernWaffle is making isn't that mythology is in the fantasy genre (though it is fantastical), but that the way that supernatural events occur seemingly happen in two different ways in Origins and Odyssey.

Thanks for that. I'm happy to discuss any point even if my own views are challenged but no one should talk down to others before you've even given them a chance to reply.

strigoi1958
09-19-2018, 11:04 PM
Well you really put a lot of thought, time and effort into that ModernWaffle.

I hadn't thought much about it before but now you have made wonder.

Perhaps Ubi are trying to evolve the game in a few quick changes rather than slowly changing one or two things over 4 or 5 games. Maybe there is a plan for AC to be very different but familiar in 2 or 3 years from now, not a reboot, maybe just a restart with different, combat, and adding in some mythology, supernatural and Sci fi... and maybe even making MD more prominent, by re-inventing it, not rewriting it... It may just be that these type of games are popular now... I'm glad AC didn't jump on the "let's-add-a-zombie-dlc" bandwagon that other games did when zombies were popular :)

Or maybe this is just a case of two studios doing it differently (no long term plan, just how it happened to come together) plus giving us some naval battles as a thank you to the fans who loved AC4BK.

It would be interesting to listen in to a Ubi meeting when they discussed the future of AC and without some kind of insight, I'm not sure we can assess what the implications are, in regards to changes from Origins to Odyssey.

ermacos
09-19-2018, 11:34 PM
ermacos, I think the point ModernWaffle is making isn't that mythology is in the fantasy genre (though it is fantastical), but that the way that supernatural events occur seemingly happen in two different ways in Origins and Odyssey.

In origins you may see the artifacts hidden by a person , placed there in a much prev date Origin is nearly 350 years after Odyssey and we see the sons of the snake searching for them to gain power and rule the world under their command. In odyssey you may see the place of the artifact origin and you as a player the one who actually collects them, but you have to encounter some dangers that may guard those artifacts, mythological dangers...

In origins we see the plane of Hades allot that may some call it as an illusion, but yet if thats an illusion it means a huge part of the story said inside this "illusions" is fake and the 1/5 of the story overal said in the game is not even a myth.

So I believe people shouldn’t be very dogmatic in the way the lore is presented to you. Because if we speak about illusions and fantasies origins in more hallucinative than Odyssey.

ShawnCase3
09-20-2018, 09:12 AM
1 more week to go. I love everything about this game, ready to wait for deep deep sale lol, I'm poor as fuc :(


Actually we have 12 days to go! If you ordered a special edition and get it on October 2nd! Personally I pre-Ordered the Spartan Edition! Check out www.gamerpros.co for an exclusive unboxing of the Spartan Edition that will go live on the 2nd or the 3rd!!
Thanks

ModernWaffle
09-20-2018, 09:39 AM
Actually we have 12 days to go! If you ordered a special edition and get it on October 2nd! Personally I pre-Ordered the Spartan Edition! Check out www.gamerpros.co for an exclusive unboxing of the Spartan Edition that will go live on the 2nd or the 3rd!!
Thanks

Not related to the topic, just saying.

Kiroku
09-20-2018, 11:56 AM
Im actually happy that they distance themselves from origins. It was super boring because it got repetitive after the first like 20 hours.

Story wise and gameplay wise. Story was really fragmentary without going in depth once. The skill tree wasnt rewardable too. Visiting one tomb was like visiting all tombs in origins since they were almost all the same and so on.

Since in Odyssey they now focus on story telling (hopefully) and also on making choices etc. Im really looking forward to this one. You cant make an RPG without focusing on story in my opinion. Maybe you can but if the combat system and the rest of the open world mechanics are getting this boring so fast plus having a bad story too literally kills the enjoyment of the game.

The war system from odyssey is okay for me since we dont play assassins. Naval is cool but I dont think it will be as good as in BF since we just have arrows and no canons.

Senu and Icarus well.. I really hope in the next games we will go back to eagle vision but I guess we wont since with those eagles we can enjoy the open world. Maybe they can combine those two features.

cawatrooper9
09-20-2018, 02:34 PM
I enjoyed Origins a lot, but Odyssey seems to be going for much more replayability.

For instance, I really appreciate that the "Phylakes" are a much bigger focus and aren't totally wiped out once you kill them all. They were one of my favorite parts of Origins, and I'm looking forward to seeing how Odyssey enhances this idea.

Same with naval. In Black Flag, I could spend hours at a time just randomly fighting ships. Here's to hoping Odyssey's naval is as engaging, because I think that would be great.

Kiroku
09-20-2018, 03:14 PM
I enjoyed Origins a lot, but Odyssey seems to be going for much more replayability.

For instance, I really appreciate that the "Phylakes" are a much bigger focus and aren't totally wiped out once you kill them all. They were one of my favorite parts of Origins, and I'm looking forward to seeing how Odyssey enhances this idea.

Same with naval. In Black Flag, I could spend hours at a time just randomly fighting ships. Here's to hoping Odyssey's naval is as engaging, because I think that would be great.

I agree the phylakes were cool! They gave me somewhat a challenge when I tried to face them with some levels under them and reminded me of dark souls and bloodborne boss battles even if the challenge was of course not the same. But it goes in the right direction. Having now more of such enemies with different skill sets and more variation could be a rewarding feature after learning the combat system. Same with the mythological beasts.

ProdiGurl
09-20-2018, 03:48 PM
As much as I deeply respect all the work & analysis of this OP (and please don't take this as anything negative toward your topic either),
I honestly don't care about comparisons... to me, you can compare all AC games & come up with similarities - many that SHOULD be there.
To me, gameplay itself is my main concern. Give me a quality, fun, long, replayable game that I can get invested in, and I consider it a great success.

Yes, Phylakes were one of the best features of Origins imo. I loved that there were threats out there that I had to avoid till I was ready to confront them. Brilliant.
Senu was also done perfectly. Plus, we could pet cats :D :)

ModernWaffle
09-20-2018, 04:49 PM
It would be interesting to listen in to a Ubi meeting when they discussed the future of AC and without some kind of insight, I'm not sure we can assess what the implications are

True, and of course for all my analysis, at the end of the day my argument is based mostly on assumption. But the reason Odyssey eludes me is because I can’t gauge Ubisoft’s intentions. Their supposed new format of two games, two year break is odd because it kind of acknowledges the downside of consistent annual releases whilst conversely keeping to a similar pattern of thinking they had pre-Origins.


Im actually happy that they distance themselves from Origins. It was super boring because it got repetitive after the first like 20 hours…

The war system from odyssey is okay for me since we dont play assassins. Naval is cool but I dont think it will be as good as in BF since we just have arrows and no canons

It wasn’t as early as 20 hours for me, but I agree that there could certainly be more variety in world activities (just remembering all those pointless animal lairs…) to reduce repetitiveness. If it’s your thing, naval navigation is a nice way to split between activities and chilling on the sea and the war system could also contribute to organic world interaction if done right.


For instance, I really appreciate that the "Phylakes" are a much bigger focus and aren't totally wiped out once you kill them all. They were one of my favorite parts of Origins, and I'm looking forward to seeing how Odyssey enhances this idea.

Odyssey does definitely improve on the Phylakes system of Origins and it’s good to see them working around that to keep stronger enemy archtypes on the map even if you may become over-levelled. I just hope they don’t make the mercenaries too similar to each other now that there are a lot more them.

I’m also glad to know that the Arena is back in via the recently revealed achievements list since those boss fights were one of the best parts of Origins.


As much as I deeply respect all the work & analysis of this OP, I honestly don't care about comparisons... to me, you can compare all AC games & come up with similarities - many that SHOULD be there

Fair enough, you could definitely introduce many more comparisons between the other games which might put some of the views in my OP in question (I kind of wanted to do this but I thought my post was long enough as it is). Part of this analysis was certainly directed at my concerns for Odyssey, but I intended for there to be an equal share of neutral curiosity to invite discussion of what people think the franchise will look like in a couple of years time without letting my bias on Odyssey get in the way of that.

strigoi1958
09-20-2018, 07:29 PM
two year break is odd because it kind of acknowledges the downside of consistent annual releases whilst conversely keeping to a similar pattern of thinking they had pre-Origins.

I never know where that originated, I know people on here said that (for many reasons), if we focus too much on just one thing, we can get tired of it, even if we love it :)

In November, I will be playing Hitman 2 and Fallout 76.... Odyssey (like Shadow of the tomb raider, that I just finished) will be a distant memory.

Although I have a few thousand hours playing the AC series, I have never been fatigued by it (although the tombs in AC2 drove me to the brink of insanity ;) ), I welcome changes as they set new challenges and keep the game fresh. And an AC game with different combat or gameplay.... is no different to me than if it was a completely new game series altogether...

I'm sure if Ubi had called Odyssey... Templar Origins and made the protagonist a Templar... people would have not even considered any implications on the game series because it would feel like something new... and they would not be surprised to find differences from Origins. (In fact I would love to see a Templar game alternating annual releases with Assassin games... that way it would be 2 years between Assassin games... and everyone would be happy :) )

I think just the fact that we like something enough to not want it to change, sometimes makes us read too much into changes.


I tend to look at these things as a gamer rather than an AC fan so it becomes less personal... That way, Ubi are not doing something to a game I love, .... A game company are just opening a game up to a wider audience. Whether that is going to change in one direction over time or change from game to game to appeal to whatever is popular, I do not know but I will play it. (Unless it has zombies) ;)

ProdiGurl
09-20-2018, 07:43 PM
Fair enough, you could definitely introduce many more comparisons between the other games which might put some of the views in my OP in question (I kind of wanted to do this but I thought my post was long enough as it is). Part of this analysis was certainly directed at my concerns for Odyssey, but I intended for there to be an equal share of neutral curiosity to invite discussion of what people think the franchise will look like in a couple of years time without letting my bias on Odyssey get in the way of that.
I know how much you put into your OP, I hate that I worded mine so strongly, and I rarely do that - I did get the ability to edit in on that part if you go back to my orig. post =)
. I've mentioned my internet connection has been mostly down and sporadic, when my modem would go thru it's constant cycling, I usually only had up to 2 minutes to get a post out before my connection was gone for another 1-3 hours, so I was typing fast and just trying to get it posted in time.
For me, I'm just about how fun the game is - even if it was very similar to most of Origins I'll probly love it becuz I loved Origins so much.
I laughed when I read your post about the animal lairs - ya.... maybe not those so much :D

I think they said there were around 50ish Mercs in the game, so we'll probably get some generic repetition on some of them like you mentioned. So excited about those.
I saw a video on them & some are awesome looking.
Anyways, I did enjoy reading thru your post. It was interesting that you picked up on so much to notice those things. Sorry again. :)

Kiroku
09-20-2018, 09:16 PM
It wasn’t as early as 20 hours for me, but I agree that there could certainly be more variety in world activities (just remembering all those pointless animal lairs…) to reduce repetitiveness. If it’s your thing, naval navigation is a nice way to split between activities and chilling on the sea and the war system could also contribute to organic world interaction if done right.

Yeah exactly and from what I have seen so far they tried to put more variety into the game. The animal lairs yeah.. ESPECIALLY the VULTURE ones where you have to kill the leader of them and shoot your arrows like crazy without hitting him was soooo annoying and made me feel like what the fk do I do this for? haha.

Collecting iron and bronze etc. was annoying too since you had to grind enemies on horse or on ship to collect enough for different weapons you want to use. Hope they worked on that aswell.

Earlier when I was a child I didnt care much about farming and grinding 24/7 since I had free time on mass literally. But nowadays I really overthink if I should invest my time in something or not and there is stuff more interesting than farming for hours for like nothing.

Naval was totally my thing in Black Flag with the canons and legendary ship challenge actually. But as mentioned before Im really scared that just shooting arrows wont be as satisfying as hearing the sound and the bass from the canons you fire following by the explosions. But traveling on the vast sea will be relaxing indeed!

strigoi1958
09-20-2018, 09:44 PM
@Kiroku

Yes I loved the naval battles and even just the sailing in AC4BF. The legendary ships the 2 together were really tough, I desynchronised sometimes just before completing it, but it was fun and I really enjoyed the challenge of finally beating them.

Kiroku
09-20-2018, 10:34 PM
@Kiroku

Yes I loved the naval battles and even just the sailing in AC4BF. The legendary ships the 2 together were really tough, I desynchronised sometimes just before completing it, but it was fun and I really enjoyed the challenge of finally beating them.

Indeed! Having the legendary ship at like 1% HP and one hit to finally destroy it when suddenly you get crushed.. The dark souls feeling :D

But if I remember correctly I heard about those ships coming back in Odyssey! Plus the mythological monsters and Phylakes we have plenty challenges to be able to make our equipment farming worth it :)

Lysette88
09-21-2018, 12:29 PM
I see these mythical creatures appearing in the game not as "real" - nothing is real actually, all is an interpretation of the Animus of the world at that time. For people at that time mythos was somewhat real,to them, they actually feared those creatures,they did as well fear their gods - and they had pretty fancy gods and demi-gods at that time. One could argue, that even today for some people those are real, even there is no evidence at all for them - but this doesn't really matter, when it comes to memories of people, for them it felt real and their fear was real as well - so in something what recreates memories of people, even irrational content or supernatural things could be real for the Animus - this is how I explain to myself, why such sequences are in the game - just like the 2nd DLC in Origins.

ProdiGurl
09-21-2018, 06:42 PM
Kiroku: Collecting iron and bronze etc. was annoying too since you had to grind enemies on horse or on ship to collect enough for different weapons you want to use. Hope they worked on that aswell.
I loved doing that & never got tired of it even tho I had hoarded more than I would ever need lol It would be especially fun in OD since there's sharks in the water :D


Strigoi: In November, I will be playing Hitman 2 and Fallout 76.... Odyssey (like Shadow of the tomb raider, that I just finished) will be a distant memory.
Me too, but is Fallout76 online only? Or console too? If it's on X1, I'm really in trouble

ModernWaffle
09-21-2018, 07:32 PM
I tend to look at these things as a gamer rather than an AC fan so it becomes less personal... That way, Ubi are not doing something to a game I love, .... A game company are just opening a game up to a wider audience.

I understand it may be a conscious choice by Ubisoft to attract a wider audience for every new game they have, but it’s personally not for me and I feel that aspect of their development approach has become more accentuated as of recent times.

It’s just a bit weird to me to say that I should be excited for Odyssey as a gamer, rather than an AC fan. Surely every franchise has a number of set features that make them unique in comparison to other games. If they don’t have enough defining features, then how do I differentiate what I want to buy when I look at a selection of games available?

I guess on the other hand though, you’ll be free to enjoy several games I probably won’t touch as you’re approaching it from a more general perspective of being a universal gamer so looks like I’m losing out there.


Anyways, I did enjoy reading thru your post. It was interesting that you picked up on so much to notice those things. Sorry again.

Thanks. I appreciate your politeness but no need to apologise, your tone was obvious from the get go. I would hate to make people feel that they can’t express their opinions honestly (or bluntly) when in actuality I want challenging views to be spoken to stimulate more practical conversation so cheers for that.


Naval was totally my thing in Black Flag with the canons and legendary ship challenge actually. But as mentioned before Im really scared that just shooting arrows wont be as satisfying as hearing the sound and the bass from the canons you fire following by the explosions. But traveling on the vast sea will be relaxing indeed!

Same, I’ve been missing naval quite a bit for the last couple of games and I although I share that concern about arrows < canons I’m hoping they have something hidden for naval combat to surprise people. Regarding navigation on boats, I’m very surprised no other series have taken cue from Black Flag, the sense of exploration you get from travelling between islands is amazing and looks to be similar in feel for Odyssey.


I see these mythical creatures appearing in the game not as "real" - nothing is real actually, all is an interpretation of the Animus of the world at that time. For people at that time mythos was somewhat real,to them, they actually feared those creatures,they did as well fear their gods …

In the context of the Medusa fight alone I find it hard to see that event as anything but real. Getting to the boss fight you see people who have turned to stone and it’s not like the environment or atmosphere changes when Alexios / Kassandra fights Medusa (i.e. it's not an out of body experience or the like). In this respect, I don’t see that fight as intended to be metaphorical at all, rather the game interpreting Greek culture very literally, which is fine in itself but keeps my point in the OP relevant.

Lysette88
09-21-2018, 08:59 PM
But this is what I am saying - nothing in the Animus is real, it is a recreation of memories and those can be faulty - people believe all kind of things and for them they are real, even if it is objectively seen crap, they still believe into it and it is part of their reality and memories. A devices, which recreates memories, can have irrational content therefore, even those are objectively seen without evidence.

ProdiGurl
09-21-2018, 09:52 PM
But this is what I am saying - nothing in the Animus is real, it is a recreation of memories and those can be faulty - people believe all kind of things and for them they are real, even if it is objectively seen crap, they still believe into it and it is part of their reality and memories. A devices, which recreates memories, can have irrational content therefore, even those are objectively seen without evidence.
This is a fact... and I'm living proof of it :rolleyes: :D

ModernWaffle
09-21-2018, 11:24 PM
But this is what I am saying - nothing in the Animus is real, it is a recreation of memories and those can be faulty - people believe all kind of things and for them they are real, even if it is objectively seen crap, they still believe into it and it is part of their reality and memories. A devices, which recreates memories, can have irrational content therefore, even those are objectively seen without evidence.

Okay I get that you're saying nothing in the Animus is 'real' since it's relived memories - which I agree to a degree - but I meant I don't think Odyssey's team is trying to make you think that when Alexios or Kassandra encountered Medusa that it was anything but their actual reality. I mean if someone is experiencing some kind of trauma or intense reaction, sure their memories might be distorted to see things that weren't really there. But Alexios and Kassandra aren't in fear nor are they particularly spiritual in terms of faith or in believing contemporary myths (as far as I've seen) so I don't think the Medusa figure would have any greater significance to them than any other symbol or enemy - otherwise they would've made an appropriate comment at the battle to indicate this.

So I'm saying in this context there doesn't seem to be any implication that your character is reacting strongly to their circumstances, to them they just see a bad guy appearing (Medusa) and fight them accordingly. Therefore, there isn't really any reason for their memories to be distorted in the way you are describing even though your logic makes sense outside of this specific example.

strigoi1958
09-22-2018, 12:26 AM
I understand it may be a conscious choice by Ubisoft to attract a wider audience for every new game they have, but it’s personally not for me and I feel that aspect of their development approach has become more accentuated as of recent times.

It’s just a bit weird to me to say that I should be excited for Odyssey as a gamer, rather than an AC fan. Surely every franchise has a number of set features that make them unique in comparison to other games. If they don’t have enough defining features, then how do I differentiate what I want to buy when I look at a selection of games available?

I guess on the other hand though, you’ll be free to enjoy several games I probably won’t touch as you’re approaching it from a more general perspective of being a universal gamer so looks like I’m losing out there.

I'm not a Universal gamer, I prefer open world games, 1st or 3rd person, but I also like some sports games, puzzle games and some strategy games... I like exploration discovery and city building but there are thousands of games that are not for me.... even if they fit into my general taste. MGSV and Witcher 3 are epic games but they do not excite me (they should, they are very good open world games )... having zombies run head first at the barrel of my gun isn't fun to me.. although strangely I do like the survivals in GTA V. I love shadow of Mordor (I replay it repeatedly and complete it in less than a day) but cannot bring myself to replay Shadow of War even once... but I'll still buy the next one :)

Not every game will be to our own individual taste so you are absolutely right to have concerns as to whether Odyssey will be a game you do not like or the start of several games you do not like... Your OP was very concise and you made your point very well and I really liked how you set it out, I'm hoping you will not let your concern affect how you will feel when (and if) you play Odyssey.

I've often been surprised and maybe you (I hope) will absolutely love Odyssey. Who knows maybe it will not be to my taste but I think it probably will be (I'm hoping ;) ).

Games do have a set of features that make them unique that is true but each genre tends to have a basic blueprint. I'm sure we can all draw comparison about all open world games regarding xp, rp, skill points, crafting and upgrades and missions. Gamers want fun and a sense of achievement. There are many ways they are achieved but generally, games have a lot of similar feature even if they have different names.

It is how we individually gain enjoyment that affects how we see each game. If a game changes affect what some see as set features it will affect their enjoyment, while others will simply carry on, so I understand why you wrote this thread (and it has been a very interesting and enjoyable thread).

So an MD fan might have a completely different idea of core features to those of someone like myself. Actually darklion started a great thread pointing out that we all look through different windows and he is right... everyone had a different view of what they see in AC.

ElderDarklion
09-22-2018, 09:21 AM
It’s just a bit weird to me to say that I should be excited for Odyssey as a gamer, rather than an AC fan. Surely every franchise has a number of set features that make them unique in comparison to other games. If they don’t have enough defining features, then how do I differentiate what I want to buy when I look at a selection of games available?

Think completely same things like you but different views. I actually bother choice element that kills AC narrative and has a huge logical mistakes for Animus idea(write many posts about it and explain how it affects the game in other threads). But this is Ubi choice to reach many gamers and earn much money(it is important for a company). We look forward for AC safety. Belive me if AC'll finish, I won't experience same delicious taste many other games. So I'll accept some changes. Here comes my dilemma. But if I won't like this new Era, I will pass a few new AC games and play old ones remastered :). These are my thoughts.


So an MD fan might have a completely different idea of core features to those of someone like myself. Actually darklion started a great thread pointing out that we all look through different windows and he is right... everyone had a different view of what they see in AC.

Thanks again and again Big Brother. And these views show us that AC is a brilliant franchise which catches us many ways to play it many years.

Kiroku
09-22-2018, 03:53 PM
I loved doing that & never got tired of it even tho I had hoarded more than I would ever need lol It would be especially fun in OD since there's sharks in the water :D

You never got bored by that? Damn

How old are you if I may ask? No offense ofc!

ermacos
09-22-2018, 07:14 PM
I see these mythical creatures appearing in the game not as "real" - nothing is real actually, all is an interpretation of the Animus of the world at that time. For people at that time mythos was somewhat real,to them, they actually feared those creatures,they did as well fear their gods - and they had pretty fancy gods and demi-gods at that time. One could argue, that even today for some people those are real, even there is no evidence at all for them - but this doesn't really matter, when it comes to memories of people, for them it felt real and their fear was real as well - so in something what recreates memories of people, even irrational content or supernatural things could be real for the Animus - this is how I explain to myself, why such sequences are in the game - just like the 2nd DLC in Origins.

Mythos is not "somewhat real", it was real stories, but mythos was the way they expressed real events, real stories, real personalities or armies/minions. An example star wars you all love, is the mythology of China/Sina. With the good rebels the evil empire .. The vise verse is ours, the titan war (war between planets) and Medusa is a part of it. (Perseus is not a person, is an army of GOD, Medusa is not one big lady with laser and snakes, is a minion of an army/snakes..)

Perseus and Medusa is symbols. Persephone as well is the fall of Medusa.

Today if we exclude any sign of Mythos, dark magic, black magic demons and their names are part of Medusa. Medusa represents all of those minions that YOU call as demons. Is magic/mediums/black magic, religions, soul/spirit, real for you? Then Medusa is real as well.

The only think that I am puzzling and I wish to go ingame and investigate it is, how the heck they chose my island to place Medusa there. My island in Mythos is known as the first land that GODS step their feet.. Maybe thats why? If the first gods came and they landed in L e s b o s Island then maybe that is why we have the first artifacts hidden in L e s b o s.

I was born and live in L e s b o s this is why I call it my Island.

Lysette88
09-22-2018, 09:26 PM
Mythos is not "somewhat real", it was real stories, but mythos was the way they expressed real events, real stories, real personalities or armies/minions. An example star wars you all love, is the mythology of China/Sina. With the good rebels the evil empire .. The vise verse is ours, the titan war (war between planets) and Medusa is a part of it. (Perseus is not a person, is an army of GOD, Medusa is not one big lady with laser and snakes, is a minion of an army/snakes..)

Perseus and Medusa is symbols. Persephone as well is the fall of Medusa.

Today if we exclude any sign of Mythos, dark magic, black magic demons and their names are part of Medusa. Medusa represents all of those minions that YOU call as demons. Is magic/mediums/black magic, religions, soul/spirit, real for you? Then Medusa is real as well.

The only think that I am puzzling and I wish to go ingame and investigate it is, how the heck they chose my island to place Medusa there. My island in Mythos is known as the first land that GODS step their feet.. Maybe thats why? If the first gods came and they landed in L e s b o s Island then maybe that is why we have the first artifacts hidden in L e s b o s.

I was born and live in L e s b o s this is why I call it my Island.

Well, I am a scientist - I do not believe in anything, I either have enough evidence for something or I don't - so gods are not any real to me neither are demons or magic. I'm an atheist and do not believe in fiction. I can still play fictive games though, because those are games and I'm roleplaying. So if my character is religious, I play him/her like that, even I do not believe in the existence of any gods IRL.

Olympus2018
09-22-2018, 09:38 PM
Well, I am a scientist - I do not believe in anything, I either have enough evidence for something or I don't - so gods are not any real to me neither are demons or magic. I'm an atheist and do not believe in fiction. I can still play fictive games though, because those are games and I'm roleplaying. So if my character is religious, I play him/her like that, even I do not believe in the existence of any gods IRL.

Thumbs up!

Lysette88
09-22-2018, 09:50 PM
Okay I get that you're saying nothing in the Animus is 'real' since it's relived memories - which I agree to a degree - but I meant I don't think Odyssey's team is trying to make you think that when Alexios or Kassandra encountered Medusa that it was anything but their actual reality. I mean if someone is experiencing some kind of trauma or intense reaction, sure their memories might be distorted to see things that weren't really there. But Alexios and Kassandra aren't in fear nor are they particularly spiritual in terms of faith or in believing contemporary myths (as far as I've seen) so I don't think the Medusa figure would have any greater significance to them than any other symbol or enemy - otherwise they would've made an appropriate comment at the battle to indicate this.

So I'm saying in this context there doesn't seem to be any implication that your character is reacting strongly to their circumstances, to them they just see a bad guy appearing (Medusa) and fight them accordingly. Therefore, there isn't really any reason for their memories to be distorted in the way you are describing even though your logic makes sense outside of this specific example.

It is real for them in the animus - yes - but the animus itself creates an interpretation of memories, what does not mean that those would have been real. Inside the animus it is real and they have to fight it or be killed by it - what leads to desychronization - so they have no choice, fight it or flee from it - otherwise the animus will not continue to simulate those memories for them any longer.

Lysette88
09-22-2018, 09:54 PM
This is not unlike a nightmare - inside the dream it is real and you either have to confront it or flee from it (by waking up or running from it) - but this does not mean that it would have been real. In a way dreams are a good example - because dreams are memories of something what one has lived through, seen or read in fiction, mixed with approximations of possible outcomes, mixed with fears and desires and whatnot. Inside the dream it is real, outside of it isn't.