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Schwarz.13
05-17-2008, 08:12 AM
1.) Am i right in saying there is no performance advantage (i.e. lighter, increased manoeuverability) when the outer MG/FF are removed from the FW A4/A5/A6 in the game?

If performance hit has been modeled for things such as MK108s/wingpods, then surely it would be logical to model better performance when weapons are removed.

2.) Why, when removing outer MG/FF is a central bomb rack automatically added? And is there a performance hit modeled for that?

I am aware that Jabo units had removed outer cannon for weight/performance reasons but JG26 (for example) frequently removed outer cannons on their fighters to increase manoeuverability.

3.) What is the point of having the empty bomb rack modeled in game?

Schwarz.13
05-17-2008, 08:12 AM
1.) Am i right in saying there is no performance advantage (i.e. lighter, increased manoeuverability) when the outer MG/FF are removed from the FW A4/A5/A6 in the game?

If performance hit has been modeled for things such as MK108s/wingpods, then surely it would be logical to model better performance when weapons are removed.

2.) Why, when removing outer MG/FF is a central bomb rack automatically added? And is there a performance hit modeled for that?

I am aware that Jabo units had removed outer cannon for weight/performance reasons but JG26 (for example) frequently removed outer cannons on their fighters to increase manoeuverability.

3.) What is the point of having the empty bomb rack modeled in game?

foxyboy1964
05-17-2008, 08:24 AM
1) I think you might be right, but I can't say for sure. I have never noticed improved performance by removing the guns, so I don't remove them.

2) I think the reason the bomb rack is automatically added is because IRL the main reason they removed the outer guns was because the aircraft was going on a jabo mission.

Oleg has said in the past that the bomb rack only provides a hit on missions were you actually take a bomb. So, if you remove the guns and gain a rack but take no bomb you won't get a performance hit.

3) Don't know http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. I think it might just be the way the default skin was designed.

DKoor
05-17-2008, 08:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Schwarz.13:
1.) Am i right in saying there is no performance advantage (i.e. lighter, increased manoeuverability) when the outer MG/FF are removed from the FW A4/A5/A6 in the game?

If performance hit has been modeled for things such as MK108s/wingpods, then surely it would be logical to model better performance when weapons are removed.

2.) Why, when removing outer MG/FF is a central bomb rack automatically added? And is there a performance hit modeled for that?

I am aware that Jabo units had removed outer cannon for weight/performance reasons but JG26 (for example) frequently removed outer cannons on their fighters to increase manoeuverability.

3.) What is the point of having the empty bomb rack modeled in game? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Only one point in all this story.
That being don't remove those guns.
Your Focke flies worse without those guns (slower, for one thing).

foxyboy1964
05-17-2008, 08:42 AM
I always set up my campaigns such that I don't get any ground attack missions anyway. I hate attacking the ground, sooner rather than later the ground is going to win.

TinyTim
05-17-2008, 09:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Schwarz.13:
1.) Am i right in saying there is no performance advantage (i.e. lighter, increased manoeuverability) when the outer MG/FF are removed from the FW A4/A5/A6 in the game?

If performance hit has been modeled for things such as MK108s/wingpods, then surely it would be logical to model better performance when weapons are removed.

2.) Why, when removing outer MG/FF is a central bomb rack automatically added? And is there a performance hit modeled for that?

I am aware that Jabo units had removed outer cannon for weight/performance reasons but JG26 (for example) frequently removed outer cannons on their fighters to increase manoeuverability.

3.) What is the point of having the empty bomb rack modeled in game? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Only one point in all this story.
That being don't remove those guns.
Your Focke flies worse without those guns (slower, for one thing). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Slower, no doubt. However, has anyone tested turn performance, energy retention, climb etc. of the gun-stripped 190? It seems to me they are identical to the full gunned version, but I might be wrong.

Choctaw111
05-17-2008, 10:18 AM
Aerodynamically, sure. But wouldn't removing the outer cannon save a little weight? Not much, but a little. I wouldn't do it. Having those extra two cannon are far better than saving a little weight.
Maybe the roll rate would improve a little as well by removing them. Has anyone done a test?

foxyboy1964
05-17-2008, 11:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Choctaw111:
Having those extra two cannon are far better than saving a little weight.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, that's the way I see it.

FatCat_99
05-17-2008, 11:34 AM
Never remove outer cannons, you lose firepower and <span class="ev_code_RED">gain weight</span>. Drag is increased too as you can expect.

FC

Xiolablu3
05-17-2008, 12:15 PM
WHy would you EXPECT to gain drag?

I would have thought sealing off the outer gunports with a bit of tape, like as done in the RAF (The Armourer could tell instantly if the guns needed re-arming) would have stopped any extra drag?

Are you saying that a long cannon barrel has less drag than a empty hole which has been sealed off?

I know RAF cannons had sort of streamlined fairings, but the Fw190's had simple round barrels as far as I can see.

Schwarz.13
05-17-2008, 12:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
Your Focke flies worse without those guns (slower, for one thing). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TinyTim:
Slower, no doubt. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FatCat_99:
Never remove outer cannons, you lose firepower and <span class="ev_code_RED">gain weight</span>. Drag is increased too as you can expect. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So the general consensus seems to be that the in-game Anton is slower when you remove the outboard cannon!

That makes no sense whatsoever. And according to FatCat you GAIN weight and drag! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

So unless a performance hit for the bomb rack IS modeled, this would seem to be quite a major flaw in the flight model (yes i know there are many flaws in-game)!

*And before someone more pedantic than myself points out my original mistake - i know the A6 has outboard MG151s and not MG/FFs*

Choctaw111
05-17-2008, 01:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FatCat_99:
Never remove outer cannons, you lose firepower and <span class="ev_code_RED">gain weight</span>. Drag is increased too as you can expect.

FC </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How do you gain weight in game by removing two cannon plus ammo?
Is there proof of this? I would like to know if there is as I am sure many people will.

DKoor
05-17-2008, 01:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Choctaw111:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FatCat_99:
Never remove outer cannons, you lose firepower and <span class="ev_code_RED">gain weight</span>. Drag is increased too as you can expect.

FC </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How do you gain weight in game by removing two cannon plus ammo?
Is there proof of this? I would like to know if there is as I am sure many people will. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>It's 100% sure that Focke is slower without outer cannons because I specifically tested that with LesniHu's autopilot (@ SL only tho, but logically will be slower @ alt too http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif ).
Anyhow... Focke is modeled in such way that when you "remove" those cannons, game actually adds a bomb rack underneath your fuselage! http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules/Forums/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif
Apparently that rack is adding more weight than two MGFF, at least in game, so that would explain more weight. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Talk about logical ROFL. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Choctaw111
05-17-2008, 04:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Choctaw111:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FatCat_99:
Never remove outer cannons, you lose firepower and <span class="ev_code_RED">gain weight</span>. Drag is increased too as you can expect.

FC </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



How do you gain weight in game by removing two cannon plus ammo?
Is there proof of this? I would like to know if there is as I am sure many people will. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>It's 100% sure that Focke is slower without outer cannons because I specifically tested that with LesniHu's autopilot (@ SL only tho, but logically will be slower @ alt too http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif ).
Anyhow... Focke is modeled in such way that when you "remove" those cannons, game actually adds a bomb rack underneath your fuselage! http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules/Forums/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif
Apparently that rack is adding more weight than two MGFF, at least in game, so that would explain more weight. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Talk about logical ROFL. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh yeah, I forgot about the bombrack. You are right.

FatCat_99
05-17-2008, 07:13 PM
In Il2 weight of armament is not modeled as separate value so when you remove outer cannons you only reduce total weight by weight of ammo.

As you get bomb rack in that configuration then weight of rack makes your plane heavier than in default config.

That's true for A4 and A5, it's possible that situation is slightly different with A6 because it has different outer cannons.

Bomb rack also explain increase in drag.

FC