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View Full Version : Ubi.. Why so long on the CONQ NERF!



Buggy.Blaster
09-12-2018, 08:19 AM
Ubi please, the community has been asking for this for so long!! Do you listen to us? I just lost a rank match to an idiot who literally spammed bash. Even when i dodged it it still hits me...WTF!! this hero is cancer!! Please ubi!!!!! Please!! He is ruining the rank for me and many others. Just nerf the bash is all we ask man! Its broken! Not a get good situation here..i can deal with all the others strong stuff but the conq just needs a tune down here. Im so fed up with it. I know u don't care because I'm just one customer but I'm not buying marching fire until the conc is fixed. Not meant to be a threat because like I said Im just one stupid customer so its not going to hurt you but thats how strong I feel about the class, I don't understand how he passed testing. Love the game love the new heroes and love most the other reworks.

Sweaty_Sock
09-12-2018, 09:04 AM
I'm waiting for one as well so I can play my (pre-rework) rep 17 conq again without feeling dirty

Roseguard_Cpt
09-12-2018, 02:44 PM
Ubi has a fair bit of hype riding on Marching Fire, so the team is probably hard at work making sure that it will be ready for launch so we don't have another Season 2 Cent situation. This is also combined with the fact that they have to figure out a change to Conq that won't destroy the character leads to there being a lot of wait time. I know many people posted suggestions, but just remember, Centurion was seemingly balanced on paper. Just think how players would react if Cent lost the cutscene, Warden lost SB, Shugo and Warlord lost headbutt, Valk lost her sweep, etc, etc.

Vrbas1
09-12-2018, 02:45 PM
I disagree. Take this away and he's a bricked hero, save maybe his safe zone attack/cancel. I really think they should have reworked him from the ground up and not just tweaked a few moves here and there. He's a pretty one-dimensional character as he stands right now, and the only reliable way to even open people up for damage output is his bash-light.

Arekonator
09-12-2018, 04:03 PM
The speed, tracking and damage payoff of the shieldbash, even the delay window is "fine".
What is not fine, is that for some characters, its pretty much impossible to punish. Yeah, technically you can get guard break on correct prediction, but you have to nail it with 100ms precision, and good luck doing that with 500ms variable timing. It makes some of his matchups ridiculously one-sided.
What ubi needs to do is to normalize punishes, either by tweaking the recovery or any other means. Hell, let him CGB even, just allow me get at least light in, if i make the correct read.

Baturai
09-12-2018, 04:07 PM
Conq and Berserker neeed A huge nerf.
Aswell as kenseis Zone.

Tyrjo
09-12-2018, 06:56 PM
I disagree. Take this away and he's a bricked hero, save maybe his safe zone attack/cancel. I really think they should have reworked him from the ground up and not just tweaked a few moves here and there. He's a pretty one-dimensional character as he stands right now, and the only reliable way to even open people up for damage output is his bash-light.

Nobody is talking about taking away the move. It needs recovery on miss.

DefiledDragon
09-13-2018, 12:19 AM
Nobody is talking about taking away the move. It needs recovery on miss.

^ This. This is all they need to do.

ArchDukeInstinct
09-13-2018, 02:32 AM
Nobody is talking about taking away the move. It needs recovery on miss.

That's virtually the same thing because nobody is going to go for shield bashes from neutral when all you can get is 13 damage and 10 stamina damage, but it's a near certainty that you get GB'd and get hit with a heavy instead. Then you're stuck with Lawbringer lights that do less damage because everything else that was offense related from the rework was a disaster.

Nose1234F
09-13-2018, 03:55 AM
I don't even know what else Conqueror has aside from the Bash, (and the full block stance). I don't find it that broken most times really, Highlander's 50/50 is a lot worse IMO, because if you are OOS is death.

Hormly
09-13-2018, 06:33 AM
Patience! Another 6-12 months and they'll have enough data I'm sure 😂

ChampionRuby50g
09-13-2018, 06:34 AM
In 4v4, wouldnít it be 23 damage though, due to Conqs feat (shieldbasher I think itís called), that deals 10 damage on hit and can kill?

Hormly
09-13-2018, 06:36 AM
I'm sick of people saying it's good that he has a game breaking move because otherwise he'd be lackluster. This is terrible game design philosophy, quit defending your OP baby with this silliness

E1seNw0Lf
09-13-2018, 09:07 AM
Did you not notice the animation change they did to conq shield bash at Marching Fire Open Test?

Question will be: Is that all they gonna change / will it be enough.

ArchDukeInstinct
09-13-2018, 09:21 AM
In 4v4, wouldn’t it be 23 damage though, due to Conqs feat (shieldbasher I think it’s called), that deals 10 damage on hit and can kill?

And?


I'm sick of people saying it's good that he has a game breaking move because otherwise he'd be lackluster. This is terrible game design philosophy, quit defending your OP baby with this silliness

Wow I'm so terribly sorry that people on a public forum pointed out that there is a much deeper, nuanced problem and a simplistic change to shield bash's miss recovery isn't going to fix it. How will you ever recover?

Charmzzz
09-13-2018, 09:39 AM
And?

And that makes it a better Opener than, well, any other?

Wow I'm so terribly sorry that people on a public forum pointed out that there is a much deeper, nuanced problem and a simplistic change to shield bash's miss recovery isn't going to fix it. How will you ever recover?

Fix what? Why are you defending SB recovery so hard? It is a move which is barely punishable at all. No other Character has something like this. Sad for Conq that he has to rely on it as his only Opener, but that, still, does not mean that an OP move has to stay in the game. Buff him somewhere else, but get rid of unpunishable moves...

Vrbas1
09-13-2018, 03:57 PM
I'm sick of people saying it's good that he has a game breaking move because otherwise he'd be lackluster. This is terrible game design philosophy, quit defending your OP baby with this silliness

Woah, hey I understand that. I appreciate that. But instead of OP, Conq is more of a one-trick pony because that's his only option. Is it reliable? Yes. Can it be abused? Yes. Are there many other options for him? No. There are some cool looking pieces to his kit (all-block counterattack, infinite light/heavy combo, shield bash after light OR heavy), but none of these ever really come into play real-time because they're either too risky or simply don't work (i.e. too telegraphed, slow, etc).

I'd like to think we could earn your cooperation in seeing a view of conqueror that is different from your own.

ArchDukeInstinct
09-14-2018, 03:50 AM
Fix what?

Feel free to re-read the posts.


Why are you defending SB recovery so hard? It is a move which is barely punishable at all. No other Character has something like this.

I correct misinformation regarding it but otherwise I think it's a cheap crutch as is clearly inferred in most posts where I point out that it's the only effective offense Conqueror has.


Sad for Conq that he has to rely on it as his only Opener, but that, still, does not mean that an OP move has to stay in the game. Buff him somewhere else, but get rid of unpunishable moves...

I'm all for buffing other offense and letting a "harasser" move like shield bash take the back seat as I've said that several times already.

Charmzzz
09-14-2018, 09:13 AM
If a Character has only one move to be aggressive, but that move is utterly broken, there is no way to justify the Character keeping that move. Any barely punishable move, or Character specifics that enabled them to be barely punishable, got eliminated from the game by the Devs, e.g.: Warden's first SB iteration, Cent's recovery after missed punches, PK's dodge recovery times overall.

- Warden had a hard time after his signature move was fixed for over a year.
- Centurion, oh boy, he is garbage since they fixed the moves that made him broken on release
- PK, pretty bad now with her dodge recoveries normalized

And the PK thing is very important: NORMALIZED recovery. Conq does not have a normalized recovery, he has a special one which makes his SB only punishable on paper. If that is the only move he has to attack, well, f*ck, bad for him. That is still not an argument to keep it the way it is, just like the other Chars got nothing when the broken things were removed.

ArchDukeInstinct
09-14-2018, 10:50 AM
If a Character has only one move to be aggressive, but that move is utterly broken, there is no way to justify the Character keeping that move. Any barely punishable move, or Character specifics that enabled them to be barely punishable, got eliminated from the game by the Devs, e.g.: Warden's first SB iteration, Cent's recovery after missed punches, PK's dodge recovery times overall.

Centurion back in the day was OP for several factors but miss recoveries was never one of them.The most glaring issue was his ability to 100-0 people simply by getting a jab near a wall, guaranteeing a heavy which in turn guaranteed a jab (as long as you changed direction for the heavy). In an extreme case of irony, the miss recovery for the uncharged jab was actually reduced from 800ms to 700ms in the same patch, which (fun fact) is the same miss recovery for Conqueror's shield bash.

You can see the aforementioned patch here: https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en-us/news-community/152-302393-16/for-honor-v1141-patch-notes

As for Warden, there was a lot more wrong than just recovery time such as the window to cancel into a GB being so ridiculously long you could just wait for the opponent to dodge and then react to that by canceling into guard break. They also increased the stamina usage required, etc.


- Centurion, oh boy, he is garbage since they fixed the moves that made him broken on release

He was actually still quite solid because he could get so much damage off of a light parry. Then he went to crap after the parry changes. I guess you were too busy telling everyone to guard right to notice, though.


- PK, pretty bad now with her dodge recoveries normalized

Well it just wouldn't be a Charmzz post if it didn't inevitably return to blubbering about Peacekeeper.


And the PK thing is very important

We know, Charmzz. WE KNOW...


Conq does not have a normalized recovery, he has a special one which makes his SB only punishable on paper.

If you bothered to actually test it, you'd see that it's clearly punishable in practice (on reaction at that) with a 600ms side dodge recovery. It just has to be quick enough. Just try with a bot in the training arena as it is guaranteed that it's not going to miss any counter guard breaks that are possible. You will find that you can get a guaranteed guard break after a forward shield on reaction quite consistently. Of course vs another player there's going to be some extra lag that isn't going to make it as consistent as you can do in the training arena but nonetheless you will clearly find that it's very much doable.

You keep harping on these "normalized recoveries" but you only mysteriously took up this quest for "normalized recoveries" when you decided that shield bash's miss recovery was the biggest problem in this game. You never cared pre-rework when shield bash had an even lower recovery at 600ms, is it because you were too busy with your 75% win rate as Peacekeeper vs Conqueror to care about balance let alone "normalized recoveries"?


If that is the only move he has to attack, well, f*ck, bad for him. That is still not an argument to keep it the way it is, just like the other Chars got nothing when the broken things were removed.

Oh really? Is that so? Because last time I checked, PK got several buffs to other moves while receiving their damage nerfs in S6. The buffs included their soft feint for combo heavies, the ability to soft feint the zone attack into a top light, the soft feint into light from heavy being moved to the top instead of being the same direction as the heavy, and their bleeds now stack.

If you also looked at when Warlord got his large nerfs last year, they also increased his damage for several attacks. Meanwhile Conqueror and Vaklyrie who were C Tier at the time took collateral damage from a nerf meant for Warlord when full block stance prevented counter guard breaking and we didn't get anything but he did. For Conqueror specifically we got told from the devs "oh well you're going to get a rework at some point so it's fine" but it would still be another third of a year at least...

Charmzzz
09-14-2018, 11:40 AM
If you bothered to actually test it, you'd see that it's clearly punishable in practice (on reaction at that) with a 600ms side dodge recovery. It just has to be quick enough. Just try with a bot in the training arena as it is guaranteed that it's not going to miss any counter guard breaks that are possible. You will find that you can get a guaranteed guard break after a forward shield on reaction quite consistently. Of course vs another player there's going to be some extra lag that isn't going to make it as consistent as you can do in the training arena but nonetheless you will clearly find that it's very much doable.

You keep harping on these "normalized recoveries" but you only mysteriously took up this quest for "normalized recoveries" when you decided that shield bash's miss recovery was the biggest problem in this game. You never cared pre-rework when shield bash had an even lower recovery at 600ms, is it because you were too busy with your 75% win rate as Peacekeeper vs Conqueror to care about balance let alone "normalized recoveries"?



Oh really? Is that so? Because last time I checked, PK got several buffs to other moves while receiving their damage nerfs in S6. The buffs included their soft feint for combo heavies, the ability to soft feint the zone attack into a top light, the soft feint into light from heavy being moved to the top instead of being the same direction as the heavy, and their bleeds now stack.

If you also looked at when Warlord got his large nerfs last year, they also increased his damage for several attacks. Meanwhile Conqueror and Vaklyrie who were C Tier at the time took collateral damage from a nerf meant for Warlord when full block stance prevented counter guard breaking and we didn't get anything but he did. For Conqueror specifically we got told from the devs "oh well you're going to get a rework at some point so it's fine" but it would still be another third of a year at least...

Just replying to the important, non attacking things and personal insults you keep throwing at me:

1. 700ms recovery - 600ms dodge recovery - latency - input lag = ? That would be ~50ms reaction time needed to get a GB off a correct read, which is bs for anyone to consistently get on reaction and not on prediction. If you dodge on prediction it means happy GBing for the Conq. The same bs we have on WL Headbutt, which is ridiculous as well. And Conq can just Light right after SB which will beat both the GB attempt or a Light.

2. I cared for PK balance, made several suggestions on how to nerf the option select Zone for example.

3. Which buffs on PK? You mean the bugfix on the broken soft-feints in chains? The only "buff" was the dagger cancel being actually not resulting in a Light-Parry all the time. Everything else was a nerf, on all fronts. Zone got nerfed to 15 Damage and got a mixup so it is not a guaranteed parry if you did not feint the second part of it.

I still don't see any viable argument from you which elaborates why Conq should keep a broken move. The only excuse you keep repeating is "but Conq does not have anything else", which does not validate SB being fine.

The_B0G_
09-14-2018, 12:05 PM
Centurion back in the day was OP for several factors but miss recoveries was never one of them.The most glaring issue was his ability to 100-0 people simply by getting a jab near a wall, guaranteeing a heavy which in turn guaranteed a jab (as long as you changed direction for the heavy). In an extreme case of irony, the miss recovery for the uncharged jab was actually reduced from 800ms to 700ms in the same patch, which (fun fact) is the same miss recovery for Conqueror's shield bash.

You can see the aforementioned patch here: https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en-us/news-community/152-302393-16/for-honor-v1141-patch-notes

As for Warden, there was a lot more wrong than just recovery time such as the window to cancel into a GB being so ridiculously long you could just wait for the opponent to dodge and then react to that by canceling into guard break. They also increased the stamina usage required, etc.



He was actually still quite solid because he could get so much damage off of a light parry. Then he went to crap after the parry changes. I guess you were too busy telling everyone to guard right to notice, though.



Well it just wouldn't be a Charmzz post if it didn't inevitably return to blubbering about Peacekeeper.



We know, Charmzz. WE KNOW...



If you bothered to actually test it, you'd see that it's clearly punishable in practice (on reaction at that) with a 600ms side dodge recovery. It just has to be quick enough. Just try with a bot in the training arena as it is guaranteed that it's not going to miss any counter guard breaks that are possible. You will find that you can get a guaranteed guard break after a forward shield on reaction quite consistently. Of course vs another player there's going to be some extra lag that isn't going to make it as consistent as you can do in the training arena but nonetheless you will clearly find that it's very much doable.

You keep harping on these "normalized recoveries" but you only mysteriously took up this quest for "normalized recoveries" when you decided that shield bash's miss recovery was the biggest problem in this game. You never cared pre-rework when shield bash had an even lower recovery at 600ms, is it because you were too busy with your 75% win rate as Peacekeeper vs Conqueror to care about balance let alone "normalized recoveries"?



Oh really? Is that so? Because last time I checked, PK got several buffs to other moves while receiving their damage nerfs in S6. The buffs included their soft feint for combo heavies, the ability to soft feint the zone attack into a top light, the soft feint into light from heavy being moved to the top instead of being the same direction as the heavy, and their bleeds now stack.

If you also looked at when Warlord got his large nerfs last year, they also increased his damage for several attacks. Meanwhile Conqueror and Vaklyrie who were C Tier at the time took collateral damage from a nerf meant for Warlord when full block stance prevented counter guard breaking and we didn't get anything but he did. For Conqueror specifically we got told from the devs "oh well you're going to get a rework at some point so it's fine" but it would still be another third of a year at least...

For how easy it is to pull off, Conqs shield bash is broken, it doesn't do a ton of damage but for some characters you can't punish it without parrying the light that comes after you dodge the SB, which is BS, especially parryling lights on console, they have to be done on prediction.

I understand you play Conq as a main and you love your unpunishable SB bash that you can mindlessly spam, but it isn't balanced. You're being ridiculously biased.

Fighting a conq that does nothing but SB spam is about as entertaining as fighting a Shugoki who does Light+headbutt the entire fight, but Shugoki has nothing but heavy attacks and feints to play with so at least he an excuse, like Orochi, Conq mains use this one small part of the kit that's abusable over and over again and claim he has nothing else.

He has superior heavy that if you let go as you're blocking a hit, is a free heavy attack and this can be a charged heavy, and you have a full block that you can use to feint that leads to a heavy and you can execute with it too. I'm positive you already know all of this, but these moves take skill and timing to pull off, not just dodge+bash+light 3 or 4 times in a row then sneak a GB in and go right back into the spam. Saying that all he has is SB is untrue, just lazy.

KotoKuraken
09-14-2018, 05:49 PM
Conq's bash can be nerfed when Warden's is nerfed and Lawbringer's is buffed

#ChangeMyMind

Charmzzz
09-14-2018, 05:55 PM
Conq's bash can be nerfed when Warden's is nerfed and Lawbringer's is buffed

#ChangeMyMind

Warden Bash: 700ms startup - counter it with a simple Light
Conq Bash: 500ms startup - no way to counter

David_gorda
09-14-2018, 05:59 PM
Conq's bash can be nerfed when Warden's is nerfed and Lawbringer's is buffed

#ChangeMyMind
Pretty much, its a risk vs reward you have to consider. Conq get 13 damage guarentuee after bash, Warden double lights or a top heavy. Anyone with side dodge attack can punish conq and dodge attacks do more damage then 13 damage. Also like Said before conq dont really have any other attacking options.

KotoKuraken
09-14-2018, 06:01 PM
Warden Bash: 700ms startup - counter it with a simple Light
Conq Bash: 500ms startup - no way to counter

Warden can cancel his bash at any time for a parry, or hold it for more charge to guarantee a heavy on your dodge and half the time on your roll. Warden can cancel it any time before he launches to ensure it's safe and can keep the guessing game going. Especially if you're a Lawbringer on PC, the fastest light is the top light and is easily parried by any competant Warden.

And again, Warden can easily use shoulderbash at a decent range in addition to being able to feint it at any time before launch, so he can play extremely safe

Charmzzz
09-14-2018, 06:10 PM
Warden can cancel his bash at any time for a parry, or hold it for more charge to guarantee a heavy on your dodge and half the time on your roll. Warden can cancel it any time before he launches to ensure it's safe and can keep the guessing game going. Especially if you're a Lawbringer on PC, the fastest light is the top light and is easily parried by any competant Warden.

And again, Warden can easily use shoulderbash at a decent range in addition to being able to feint it at any time before launch, so he can play extremely safe

When Warden is out of range of your Light you are able to dodge his Bash easily on reaction and punish with a free GB. You cannot do that to Conq. If Warden is close to you - throw a Light. To parry it he will have to feint Bash first, then match your guard and then do the parry input in what, a 500-600ms timeframe? Sure, they do this ALL the time.... ^^

I simply do not dodge Warden Bash on prediction. I use Light when he is close or wait what he does when out of range. Conq meanwhile is a guessing game all the time.

Charmzzz
09-14-2018, 06:12 PM
Pretty much, its a risk vs reward you have to consider. Conq get 13 damage guarentuee after bash, Warden double lights or a top heavy. Anyone with side dodge attack can punish conq and dodge attacks do more damage then 13 damage. Also like Said before conq dont really have any other attacking options.

It's not risky for Conq to just dodge forward and GB. To get the dodge-attack in you have to do the input on prediction, not reaction, because Conq Bash is 500ms and delayable into his dodge. The best thing to do is take the Bash and the 13 Damage, if you dodge-attack and he GB you the Damage is higher. What is the risk of Conq with this, nearly, 50/50 move?

KotoKuraken
09-14-2018, 06:23 PM
It's not risky for Conq to just dodge forward and GB. To get the dodge-attack in you have to do the input on prediction, not reaction, because Conq Bash is 500ms and delayable into his dodge. The best thing to do is take the Bash and the 13 Damage, if you dodge-attack and he GB you the Damage is higher. What is the risk of Conq with this, nearly, 50/50 move?

I've always had a super easy time dodging Conq, because it's very definite when he'll bash vs when he won't.
Warden can keep feinting his bash over and over again until he decides it's safe and eventually goes through with it.
There's even a video on Reddit proving that reacting to Warden's bash up close is impossible; you have to predict that he'll actually go through with it before dodging

Warden is a 25/25/25/25. He can either feint into gb, let it go for double light, charge it for more damage on your dodge, or feint into neutral (and can easily parry from this)

David_gorda
09-14-2018, 06:23 PM
It's not risky for Conq to just dodge forward and GB. To get the dodge-attack in you have to do the input on prediction, not reaction, because Conq Bash is 500ms and delayable into his dodge. The best thing to do is take the Bash and the 13 Damage, if you dodge-attack and he GB you the Damage is higher. What is the risk of Conq with this, nearly, 50/50 move?you can get a guarentuee guardbreak if conq dodge and dont do the shieldbash so again its fair. It would be different if he had other attacking options like glad zone, or warlord running shield crush bit when fighting conq you only need to pay attention to shieldbash. Its fair compared to Similiar other abilities until he get other Similiar other attacks

Alustar.
09-14-2018, 06:38 PM
Who wants to bet that the players defending shield bash also threw a fit over season 1 peacekeeper and her 0 recover after double light?
Conqueror right now is a face roll hero. It is shameful to see players defending this move by saying "but it's my only safe move!" That is a justifiable reason.

Hormly
09-14-2018, 06:43 PM
Can we at least agree to keep this thread on topic? Stop deflecting away to other classes and discuss the SB on conq please

David_gorda
09-14-2018, 06:52 PM
Can we at least agree to keep this thread on topic? Stop deflecting away to other classes and discuss the SB on conq pleaseif you want balance you need to compare to other classes. I have a prestige 27 lawbringer for example and My conq is 11, warlord 23 and 25 Warden. I Am not a biased form noob like most in this thread but if conqs bash is nerfed without another attacking option he Will have No attacking option like lawbringer and shugoki and thats not fun.
For me ideal would be Of all characters were Similiar to kensai with several useful things in his kits without making him op but i dont have any faith in ubisoft with current devs to ever balance this Game properly.

David_gorda
09-14-2018, 07:00 PM
Who wants to bet that the players defending shield bash also threw a fit over season 1 peacekeeper and her 0 recover after double light?
Conqueror right now is a face roll hero. It is shameful to see players defending this move by saying "but it's my only safe move!" That is a justifiable reason.
Who wants to bet that People complain about conq are noobs with Below 1k/D with the pre nerfed op pk ;)

The_B0G_
09-14-2018, 07:05 PM
Who wants to bet that People complain about conq are noobs with Below 1k/D with the pre nerfed op pk ;)

So even though it's obviously OP and nearly unpunishable, everyone who complains about it is a noob... Riiiighhhttt.

David_gorda
09-14-2018, 07:10 PM
So even though it's obviously OP and nearly unpunishable, everyone who complains about it is a noob... Riiiighhhttt.
Nearly unpunishable by 3 classes that dont have a dodge attack or dodge bash. Yeah i agree lawbringer shugoki and aramsusha needs a buff. but if you use a heronwith a dodge attack and complain
About getting hit by 13 damage when you dont do a dodge attack then you
Need to practice more.

EvoX.
09-14-2018, 08:07 PM
Warden's SB >>>>>>> Conq's SB. Nerf the move in some way, increase the hero's effectiveness in other ways. Making a move that guarantees 13 damage vulnerable to a guaranteed GB on a casual dodge Is something only people spited by the character would want. Only much more versatile UB openers should be subjected to that, like the aforementioned Warden SB - it can be feinted at extremely late windows, it can be charged, grants hyper armor, guarantees either 22 or 40 damage on hit, can be used to react to the opponent and vary the timing accordingly to guarantee a hit (without counting combat roll). Dodging that should be punished by a GB every time, but current Conq's SB? I don't think so.

Conqueror needs to not rely on a single move. People need to stop wanting him to be obsolete. When those two things are made true (if ever), he will be what he should be.


1. 700ms recovery - 600ms dodge recovery - latency - input lag = ? That would be ~50ms reaction time needed to get a GB off a correct read.

What even is this logic? You're basically stating that you've somehow initiated the dodge when Conq is already in recovery frames? How the hell does that work without getting hit?

Assuming you need around 300ms to identify the move and react to it, that makes it 300 + 600 + misc stuff like latency. If the combined total of that is lower than 200 + 700 (remainder of SB + its recovery), then you get the GB.

That's obviously not taking into account the variable timings which can screw with your decision making, but it still goes without saying that the move itself is far from unpunishable, and you need to cut the BS of nobody being able to GB a Conq without prediction dodging it.

David_gorda
09-14-2018, 08:13 PM
Warden's SB >>>>>>> Conq's SB. Nerf the move in some way, increase the hero's effectiveness in other ways. Making a move that guarantees 13 damage vulnerable to a guaranteed GB on a casual dodge Is something only people spited by the character would want. Only much more versatile UB openers should be subjected to that, like the aforementioned Warden SB - it can be feinted at extremely late windows, it can be charged, grants hyper armor, guarantees either 22 or 40 damage on hit, can be used to react to the opponent and vary the timing accordingly to guarantee a hit (without counting combat roll). Dodging that should be punished by a GB every time, but current Conq's SB? I don't think so.

Conqueror needs to not rely on a single move. People need to stop wanting him to be obsolete. When those two things are made true, he will be what he should be.



What even is this logic? You're basically stating that you've somehow initiated the dodge when Conq is already in recovery frames? How the hell does that work without getting hit?

Assuming you need around 300ms to identify the move and react to it, that makes it 300 + 600 + misc stuff like latency. If the combined total of that is lower than 200 + 700 (remainder of SB + its recovery), then you get the GB.

That's obviously not taking into account the variable timings which can screw with your decision making, but it still goes without saying that the move itself is far from unpunishable, and you need to cut the BS of nobody being able to GB a Conq without prediction dodging it.
Good post, i play both Warden And conq and IMO Warden is better 1vs1 and alot better in 4vs4. The Wardens cancel bash, to double lights to top heavy is so much better then a bash that gives 13 damage. Plus Warden has alot Of other offensive tools aswell.

Vrbas1
09-14-2018, 08:53 PM
Crazy idea: add Conq SB cancelling and charge properties like Warden.

<_<
>_>

Charmzzz
09-14-2018, 08:57 PM
What even is this logic? You're basically stating that you've somehow initiated the dodge when Conq is already in recovery frames? How the hell does that work without getting hit?

Assuming you need around 300ms to identify the move and react to it, that makes it 300 + 600 + misc stuff like latency. If the combined total of that is lower than 200 + 700 (remainder of SB + its recovery), then you get the GB.

That's obviously not taking into account the variable timings which can screw with your decision making, but it still goes without saying that the move itself is far from unpunishable, and you need to cut the BS of nobody being able to GB a Conq without prediction dodging it.

Conq commits to his SB 500ms move which results in a 700ms recovery. I dodge within the 500ms bash timeframe to avoid it. My dodge recovery of 600ms approx. starts when Conq is in his 700ms recovery. So theoretically I have 100ms time to do the GB input. Reduced by input lag and latency.

Did I get something wrong? Where?

Charmzzz
09-14-2018, 09:02 PM
Crazy idea: add Conq SB cancelling and charge properties like Warden.

<_<
>_>

Fine for me if it is also 700ms with a larger recovery.

Playing_Mantis
09-14-2018, 11:54 PM
Yes, I agree with charmzzz and others. Conc needs to have some punishment for this move thats too easy to spam. Don't take it away, but make it have some risk to use. Im tired of getting spam by cones that think they are so good at the game. Its frustrating beyond belief. And why is it taking so long to be addressed by UBI? :/

ooweda2blu
09-15-2018, 03:03 AM
I'm an active rep 40 conqueror on PS4, and I started playing it since the closed beta. First of all, I strongly agree: the shield bash during a dogde is too strong to counter, and too simple to use; also it guarantees the victory on duels.

This move is totally unfair, and it can be spammed without paying attention on stamina, actually. Who says, or thinks, that there isn't any other tool or tactic that can be used as a conqueror, then should leave him on the menu and change character. I really understand that on PC some attacks could be useless, but anyone said you (you as conqueror) to playing offensive.
I play as a conqueror in ranked duels and other game modes, but since I noticed that shield bash during a dogde is unfair, I just deleted it from my attack options, so who fights me doesn't have a shield bash spammer. Also I don't use it as first move to make a good offensive chain. This means that my options are lights, heavies, chain shield bash, guardbreak, and zone attacks. Just these are enough to win an hard game, if you know how to use them right.
Playing offensive as conqueror on PC should be difficult because of the lower delay felt on incoming attacks, but the attacks I mentioned a bit ago are still enough if you know how to play. Conqueror has a lot of defensive tools, first of all its zone attack, that could be used as a safe defense against fast lights. The timing on each attack of the lights+heavies chain can be delayed a bit, to cause a mistake by the opponent. Plus, the upper light attack is fast enough to stop dangerous attacks/moves. We have also two type of feints: on full block stance, and a little bash on heavies, and a full block stance that could be used to counter normal attacks with an uppercut. Why should we need a shield bash on dogde?

I don't like players that use only shield bash during a dodge to win a game, or considering it as their main move, so I think the same as any other not-main conqueror player: this shield bash must be nerfed. Its use is totally unfair, and I don't understand how some players could play while they understand that they are "cheating", and making the game toxic and unplayable. For this reason I still play as conqueror, but I don't use that.

Now, I don't think that the problem could be solved with a simple jump that warning the opponent of an incoming shield bash during dodge, if the speed or recovery time aren't changed. My suggestion is to make it as an "High stamina move", decrease its activation window, decrease a bit its speed, and decrease again the guaranteed light after the shield bash. As a setting like this we have a shiled bash that can be used as opening, but should not guarantee a next shield bash if you have done some chain attacks. So my idea is that 2 shield bashes during a dogde used rapidly cause an "Out Of Stamina" status, making the shield bash spamming higly punishable because of this status. With a setting like this, consider a duel like Conqueror VS Highlander: if the Conqueror spam 2 shield bashes during a dodge rapidly (and considering that with this setting they are less fast and more predictable) he goes "Out Of Stamina", and the Highlander could try to hit him so many times because of its weak status. With a shield bash during a dodge like this, we should have a defensive tool (it could be used to make distance from the enemy) and a more predictable defense opening.


What do you think?

ArchDukeInstinct
09-15-2018, 04:19 AM
Just replying to the important, non attacking things and personal insults you keep throwing at me

Honest question, Charmzz. Do you really believe that nobody is going to notice that you purposely left out those two top paragraphs where I prove you wrong about Centurion's jab miss recovery being nerfed and didn't "attack" you once? Where's the accountability?


1. 700ms recovery - 600ms dodge recovery - latency - input lag = ? That would be ~50ms reaction time needed to get a GB off a correct read, which is bs for anyone to consistently get on reaction and not on prediction. If you dodge on prediction it means happy GBing for the Conq. The same bs we have on WL Headbutt, which is ridiculous as well. And Conq can just Light right after SB which will beat both the GB attempt or a Light.

As Evo brilliantly pointed out, you are not taking into account the shield bash's duration itself and are imagining an impossible scenario where you somehow dodge long after a shield bash would have hit.

Also I remember you having a completely different answer 2 weeks ago:


Side dodge recovery is 600ms across the board. GB is 400ms. I don't know why but I have never managed to punish him with a GB. I should have 200ms time to actually do, but I guess latency and input lag prevent that from happening.

So where did that 150ms go in the span of 2 weeks???


3. Which buffs on PK? You mean the bugfix on the broken soft-feints in chains? The only "buff" was the dagger cancel being actually not resulting in a Light-Parry all the time. Everything else was a nerf, on all fronts. Zone got nerfed to 15 Damage and got a mixup so it is not a guaranteed parry if you did not feint the second part of it.

If those soft feints are so meaningless, then why did you personally cry about them being gone for at least half a year?


I still don't see any viable argument from you which elaborates why Conq should keep a broken move. The only excuse you keep repeating is "but Conq does not have anything else", which does not validate SB being fine.

Well you don't see a viable argument because my argument is for improving this game, but all you want is a character nerfed and as you have stated again and again, you do not care if the character is not viable afterwards.


For how easy it is to pull off, Conqs shield bash is broken, it doesn't do a ton of damage but for some characters you can't punish it without parrying the light that comes after you dodge the SB, which is BS, especially parryling lights on console, they have to be done on prediction.

First off, you're simply incorrect that the only way to punish it is by parrying the light. Also, if he does a light immediately after the shield bash, then what's so hard about predicting it exactly?
Also to say all lights needs to be parried on prediction.... Just no. Maybe 400ms lights, but 500ms (Conq top light) and 600ms (Conq side light opener), that can be done on reaction.


I understand you play Conq as a main and you love your unpunishable SB bash that you can mindlessly spam, but it isn't balanced. You're being ridiculously biased.

If you bothered to read, you might have noticed that I actually called SB a cheap crutch and was in favor of it being nerfed if other moves, which weren't viable, were buffed.


Fighting a conq that does nothing but SB spam is about as entertaining as fighting a Shugoki who does Light+headbutt the entire fight

Uhh?? Sorry you can't parry Shugoki's 600ms light attacks I guess?


but Shugoki has nothing but heavy attacks and feints to play with so at least he an excuse, like Orochi, Conq mains use this one small part of the kit that's abusable over and over again and claim he has nothing else.

Well please show us the way, Mr. Expert. What amazingly effective offense does Conqueror have that doesn't revolve around shield bash?


He has superior heavy that if you let go as you're blocking a hit, is a free heavy attack and this can be a charged heavy, and you have a full block that you can use to feint that leads to a heavy and you can execute with it too.

First off, this is a counter-attacking/defensive move. It's not going to help you open up an opponent. Nobody is saying that Conqueror doesn't have defensive tools. Lawbringer has defensive tools. Shugoki has defensive tools.

Another thing is that it's only a "free heavy attack" if the incoming attack is a heavy. Superior block does not affect light attacks, therefore the opponent will be in position to block the heavy even if you successfully hit the 2 frame window for a superior block to work.


I'm positive you already know all of this, but these moves take skill and timing to pull off, not just dodge+bash+light 3 or 4 times in a row then sneak a GB in and go right back into the spam. Saying that all he has is SB is untrue, just lazy.

Well that's great, you found one defensive property (not even a move) which has a highly niche purpose.

Vrbas1
09-15-2018, 05:53 AM
the shield bash during a dogde is too strong to counter, and too simple to use; also it guarantees the victory on duels.

Does it really? That's a pretty sweeping statement. For a main I wouldn't expect such a bold delusion.

AnErrantKnight
09-15-2018, 07:55 AM
A good conq doesnít bash spam. Personally I donít think that the dodge timing for conq is all too hard. What NEEDS to be fixed is his recovery after a bash since he can attack immediately after a whiff

AnErrantKnight
09-15-2018, 08:21 AM
A conq needs to be able to be punished for not hitting the shield bash

AnErrantKnight
09-15-2018, 08:23 AM
No that makes him no longer unique

ooweda2blu
09-15-2018, 12:36 PM
Does it really? That's a pretty sweeping statement. For a main I wouldn't expect such a bold delusion.

You shouldn't expect anything special. The shield bash is simply broken and unfair, and so many players confirm that. If you want more information you can just play and see how shield bash works actually:

the big activation window lets him to have an high chance to drain out your stamina, specially in the "Out Of Stamina" status. Plus, after a shield bash there is a very little window to do a guardbreak and punish this opening, so usually if you try to guardbreak the conqueror after the shield bash he will counter that. Raider has better chance to punish him, thanks to his guardbreak during a dodge.
Also, it's very difficult to hit the conqueror during the shield bash to stop him doing that, because you must attack him on right direction fast, specially on console. Maybe on PC is bit different, but on console the shield bash on duels are totally unfair, unless you have a very low ping internet connection.


A good conq doesnít bash spam. Personally I donít think that the dodge timing for conq is all too hard. What NEEDS to be fixed is his recovery after a bash since he can attack immediately after a whiff

Yes, but you should consider that an activation window like that let him to be very dangerous, specially if you don't decrease the speed of shield bash. That's why I suggested a shield bash like the one in my previous post.


A conq needs to be able to be punished for not hitting the shield bash

Yes too, but how you can punish it if you can't evade it because of its speed and activation window? I suggested a solution in my previous post.

David_gorda
09-15-2018, 12:42 PM
Played some ranked duels today with Warden and owned conqs easy with My better bash. Lost one match against a ligjtspamming noob orochi. Total prestige 30 and rank and obviously didnt Know what he was doing. Ofc i am going up against him in the final again after beating several other gold ranked players. So i decide to use conq to counter his lightspam which worked pretty good but Every single time i tried to shield bash he just dodge attackers me. So much for a none punishable move lol :D ofc i lost the final 3-2 against the noob lightspamming orochi.

The_B0G_
09-15-2018, 01:37 PM
Honest question, Charmzz. Do you really believe that nobody is going to notice that you purposely left out those two top paragraphs where I prove you wrong about Centurion's jab miss recovery being nerfed and didn't "attack" you once? Where's the accountability?



As Evo brilliantly pointed out, you are not taking into account the shield bash's duration itself and are imagining an impossible scenario where you somehow dodge long after a shield bash would have hit.

Also I remember you having a completely different answer 2 weeks ago:



So where did that 150ms go in the span of 2 weeks???



If those soft feints are so meaningless, then why did you personally cry about them being gone for at least half a year?



Well you don't see a viable argument because my argument is for improving this game, but all you want is a character nerfed and as you have stated again and again, you do not care if the character is not viable afterwards.



First off, you're simply incorrect that the only way to punish it is by parrying the light. Also, if he does a light immediately after the shield bash, then what's so hard about predicting it exactly?
Also to say all lights needs to be parried on prediction.... Just no. Maybe 400ms lights, but 500ms (Conq top light) and 600ms (Conq side light opener), that can be done on reaction.



If you bothered to read, you might have noticed that I actually called SB a cheap crutch and was in favor of it being nerfed if other moves, which weren't viable, were buffed.



Uhh?? Sorry you can't parry Shugoki's 600ms light attacks I guess?



Well please show us the way, Mr. Expert. What amazingly effective offense does Conqueror have that doesn't revolve around shield bash?



First off, this is a counter-attacking/defensive move. It's not going to help you open up an opponent. Nobody is saying that Conqueror doesn't have defensive tools. Lawbringer has defensive tools. Shugoki has defensive tools.

Another thing is that it's only a "free heavy attack" if the incoming attack is a heavy. Superior block does not affect light attacks, therefore the opponent will be in position to block the heavy even if you successfully hit the 2 frame window for a superior block to work.



Well that's great, you found one defensive property (not even a move) which has a highly niche purpose.

So you know it's cheap, what are we even arguing about then?

With heroes that don't have a fast dodge attack, yeah, parrying the light is the only way to get out of it besides rolling, if you don't do one of those two things, the sb spam continues.

I play on console, so even 500 ms lights aren't easy to parry, especially if he isn't being predictable, if he does top light every single time, sure it's and easy parry, but not many are that predictable.

As far as parrying shugoki lights, how many shugoki's do you see throw out raw lights when they aren't trading? Come on. Of course it can be parried, if he actually attacks you. Thats why I compared them to each other, they turtle up and do their cheap light+headbutt/SB light spam, boring and annoying to fight against.

Offensive opportunities are created with mind games, feint with full block, heavy into SB, heavy into full block, charged heavy with superior block, it may not be a free heavy on a light attack block but that doesn't mean it won't hit most of the time. Warlords heavy from full block isn't a free heavy but I land it all the time.

Like I said, I'm not even sure why you're arguing, you know its BS, I don't care if he has it, I just think it should be like every other unblocklable bash and be punishable on a whiff, and by all heroes not just some.

Vakris_One
09-15-2018, 01:40 PM
How sad it is to read that most people defending the broken recovery of Conq's shield bash actually acknowledge that the move is broken but they're okay with exploiting a broken move (basically cheating to get wins) because they don't know how to play Conq any other way.

Not one post have I read where someone details exactly why they think Conq would be chucked directly into trash tier just because the recovery of one move gets normalised to conform to the same standards that every other character has to abide by. What's so special about Conq that he needs an exploit in order to be useable? Cos the arguments I'm seeing primarily come down to:
- He's my main and I like him broken
- I don't know how to use the rest of his kit effectively.

Characters that have a worse moveset than Conq (and yet have no exploit to abuse):
Shugoki
Lawbringer
Aramusha
Raider
Centurion
Shinobi

You're telling me that Conq will be worse off than these guys just because he will have to be more careful with using his shield bash?


Played some ranked duels today with Warden and owned conqs easy with My better bash. Lost one match against a ligjtspamming noob orochi. Total prestige 30 and rank and obviously didnt Know what he was doing. Ofc i am going up against him in the final again after beating several other gold ranked players. So i decide to use conq to counter his lightspam which worked pretty good but Every single time i tried to shield bash he just dodge attackers me. So much for a none punishable move lol :D ofc i lost the final 3-2 against the noob lightspamming orochi.
Purposefully obfuscating around the fact that only characters with a dodge attack can punish Conq's bash isn't making you look very smart.

1. Warden has a dodge bash attack, meaning he can punish a Conq spamming bash only because he has a dodge into bash himself.

2. Warden is the best 1v1 duelist in the game now with the ultimate bait and punish tool. Is this what it should take to level the playing field with Conq's broken recovery? Broken exploit abuse meet the ultimate safe move... Really?

3. As strong as his bait and punish tool is, at least Warden abides by the same rules of the game as everyone else. If he whiffs he can be punished with a GB. If Conq whiffs and you don't have a dodge attack, too bad you get nothing. Consistency? Logic? Normalised recovery mechanics? Where fore art thou?

David_gorda
09-15-2018, 01:55 PM
Thing is conq is only 13 confirmed damage from the bash. You can compare to for example warlord headbutt and glads toestab. Yes devs could make it punishable just like those move but warlord has other offensive tools like running shieldcrush and glad has his zone.
If we nerf conq dodge recovered he Will useless in 1vs 1just like lawbringer and Shugoki. No Thx just make more classes viable 1vs1.

Also its only like 3 classe that cannot easy punish shieldbash with a dodge attack or dodge bash which Will do more then the 13 damage that conq gets.

Arekonator
09-15-2018, 02:11 PM
So i guess having more than 70% WR vs specific characters is fine?

David_gorda
09-15-2018, 02:27 PM
So i guess having more than 70% WR vs specific characters is fine? No IMO every single character should have a dodge attack or dodge bash and lights should never be slower then 500ms. Lawbringer and shugoki rework first, then nerf Warden bash, rework conq bash and give him something else offensive and nerf berserker lights, either damage speed or Hyperarmor.

Vakris_One
09-15-2018, 02:27 PM
Thing is conq is only 13 confirmed damage from the bash. You can compare to for example warlord headbutt and glads toestab. Yes devs could make it punishable just like those move but warlord has other offensive tools like running shieldcrush and glad has his zone.
Conq has his zone, feint into shield bash, a not insignificant feint into all-block mind game, superior block heavies and he will still have his forward and side dodge shield bash with the large amount of delay he gets to input them, just that it will be punishable on a whiff so he'll have to be more careful. Most people are acting like shield bash will be deleted from his offense. It won't. You'll just have to be smarter in using it.

Conq has adequate tools to use and he has better mind game options that those other two heroes you mentioned. As Bog correctly stated, offensive opportunities are created using mind games. Up his light damage to 18 and I'd call that nicely compensated for having to be less reckless and more careful in using shield bash.



If we nerf conq dodge recovered he Will useless in 1vs 1just like lawbringer and Shugoki. No Thx just make more classes viable 1vs1.
He won't because he has a better moveset and better mind game options than those two.



Also its only like 3 classe that cannot easy punish shieldbash with a dodge attack or dodge bash which Will do more then the 13 damage that conq gets.
I count 5 classes who get nothing from correctly dodging a Conq shield bash:
Shugoki
Centurion
Aramusha
Warlord
Highlander (in defensive stance)

Up his light damage to 18 then - just 2 points shy of the majority 20 damage dodge attacks. Keeping in mind he has to be balanced for 4v4 as well. Conq gets the shield basher feat in 4v4s which gives his shield bashes +10 damage. That gives him 28 damage for a successful bash in 4v4 modes, well worth the risk of most heroes 20 damage dodge attacks.

Alustar.
09-15-2018, 06:17 PM
How sad it is to read that most people defending the broken recovery of Conq's shield bash actually acknowledge that the move is broken but they're okay with exploiting a broken move (basically cheating to get wins) because they don't know how to play Conq any other way.

Not one post have I read where someone details exactly why they think Conq would be chucked directly into trash tier just because the recovery of one move gets normalised to conform to the same standards that every other character has to abide by. What's so special about Conq that he needs an exploit in order to be useable? Cos the arguments I'm seeing primarily come down to:
- He's my main and I like him broken
- I don't know how to use the rest of his kit effectively.

Characters that have a worse moveset than Conq (and yet have no exploit to abuse):
Shugoki
Lawbringer
Aramusha
Raider
Centurion
Shinobi

You're telling me that Conq will be worse off than these guys just because he will have to be more careful with using his shield bash?


Purposefully obfuscating around the fact that only characters with a dodge attack can punish Conq's bash isn't making you look very smart.

1. Warden has a dodge bash attack, meaning he can punish a Conq spamming bash only because he has a dodge into bash himself.

2. Warden is the best 1v1 duelist in the game now with the ultimate bait and punish tool. Is this what it should take to level the playing field with Conq's broken recovery? Broken exploit abuse meet the ultimate safe move... Really?

3. As strong as his bait and punish tool is, at least Warden abides by the same rules of the game as everyone else. If he whiffs he can be punished with a GB. If Conq whiffs and you don't have a dodge attack, too bad you get nothing. Consistency? Logic? Normalised recovery mechanics? Where fore art thou?

It's about as funny as players I've seen complaining about fast light chains, but also ram heroes that could for damn near a while year exploit the guard switch bug.

ArchDukeInstinct
09-15-2018, 10:24 PM
So you know it's cheap, what are we even arguing about then?

GREAT QUESTION BOG. I'm also curious as to what is being argued here as well.

What I witnessed was that Charmzz and I agreed on what to do to fix the problem which should have meant that it was over. However Charmzz immediately backed out the next post, pretended like they never said what we agreed to, and after some weird, false story about Centurion's nerfs in 2017, they started their obligatory blubbering over Conqueror "stealing" PK's #1 spot in duel.

So my only guess is that Charmzz doesn't care about balance, since they say repeatedly they don't care if Conqueror is no longer viable, their only goal seems to be to put PK back on top because apparently dominating for 5 seasons already wasn't good enough.


Offensive opportunities are created with mind games, feint with full block, heavy into SB, heavy into full block, charged heavy with superior block, it may not be a free heavy on a light attack block but that doesn't mean it won't hit most of the time. Warlords heavy from full block isn't a free heavy but I land it all the time.

Charged heavies will hit most of the time? Who the heck are you playing against?


Like I said, I'm not even sure why you're arguing, you know its BS, I don't care if he has it, I just think it should be like every other unblocklable bash and be punishable on a whiff, and by all heroes not just some.

And it already is punishable on whiff, so case closed?




Not one post have I read where someone details exactly why they think Conq would be chucked directly into trash tier just because the recovery of one move gets normalised to conform to the same standards that every other character has to abide by. What's so special about Conq that he needs an exploit in order to be useable?

If you managed to miss all the people clearly pointing out that Conqueror has no effective offense outside of shield bash, then that's your own reading comprehension problem.

If you would like to take a crack at demonstrating to us how charged heavy, shield uppercut, or the infinite light/heavy chain are effective offense, then go for it. Otherwise don't be shocked when nobody is convinced.


Cos the arguments I'm seeing primarily come down to:
- He's my main and I like him broken
- I don't know how to use the rest of his kit effectively.

Please quote anyone let alone me saying anything like that first point.


Characters that have a worse moveset than Conq (and yet have no exploit to abuse):
Shugoki
Lawbringer
Aramusha
Raider
Centurion
Shinobi

You're telling me that Conq will be worse off than these guys just because he will have to be more careful with using his shield bash?

More than half of these are already considered C Tier characters in Duel except Centurion and Shinibo. Don't take my word for it: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bk6y7jw2ujLrjm0Zzbb4aEZUV13gyGoy-IobrkfNgaY/edit#gid=0

And none of these have even gotten their rework yet.

So basically the best you could come up with is that Conqueror with a nerfed shield bash and no other changes.... won't be worse than Shugoki??? That's an absolutely terrible argument, I can't believe you actually came here with that and on top of it how smug you are while doing it.


Purposefully obfuscating around the fact that only characters with a dodge attack can punish Conq's bash isn't making you look very smart.

"Obfuscating" is Vakris's word of the month or something. I'm glad the guy is trying to expand his vocabulary and all but he should probably learn what the definition is before using it so much. But I digress, Nobody is "obfuscating" here because that's not a fact. Even Charmzz, one of the most vocal and butt hurt Anti-Conqs have had to admit there's at least 200ms of a window to side dodge and GB a shield bash. So take it up with with the Blubberer n Chief over there.


3. As strong as his bait and punish tool is, at least Warden abides by the same rules of the game as everyone else. If he whiffs he can be punished with a GB. If Conq whiffs and you don't have a dodge attack, too bad you get nothing. Consistency? Logic? Normalised recovery mechanics? Where fore art thou?

It's so sad how Vakris resorts to grandstanding over a phrase he made up and simply insists is a rule that the game must abide by. But what is Vakris supposed to do? Get a real argument that isn't an absolute disaster like "Conq won't be worse than Shugoki so it's all good"?

Charmzzz
09-15-2018, 11:10 PM
"Even Charmzz, one of the most vocal and butt hurt Anti-Conqs"

"So my only guess is that Charmzz doesn't care about balance, since they say repeatedly they don't care if Conqueror is no longer viable, their only goal seems to be to put PK back on top because apparently dominating for 5 seasons already wasn't good enough."

Can you just stop being so offensive against me? Cause I am trying to treat you respectfully, yet you are sh*t-talking me in EVERY POST.

I am not butt hurt, I just dont like broken moves in the game. No matter on which Character. And if Conq is no longer viable without his broken move, well, bad for him, hopefully they give him something else, but still the move has to go as it is now. And no, I dont want PK being on Top in Duel. I really dont care even, as I dont play Duel anymore.

Vakris_One
09-16-2018, 02:02 AM
ArchDuke, it's unfortunate how you always have to resort to petty little insults instead of sticking to arguing your points. You might find more people inclined to see your point of view if you weren't so overly abrasive on purpose. Honest question: are you capable of handling disagreements over your main without making it personal? If the answer is yes then please reign in your nasty attitude and try to have a civil discussion for a change.


And it already is punishable on whiff, so case closed?
Everyone knows it's not punishable by characters who have no dodge attack. This is a widely known fact among the community.



If you managed to miss all the people clearly pointing out that Conqueror has no effective offense outside of shield bash, then that's your own reading comprehension problem.

If you would like to take a crack at demonstrating to us how charged heavy, shield uppercut, or the infinite light/heavy chain are effective offense, then go for it. Otherwise don't be shocked when nobody is convinced.
Your assumption is that shield bash will be outright deleted just because it gets a normalised recovery. That's faulty logic. If it were true then similiar moves that bait out a reaction like Warden's bash, Shaman's bash, LB's bash, Warlord headbutt, etc would be completely useless unless they had no GB punish on whiff, but that's not true now is it? Played smartly a bash such as Conq's that can be delayed can be used to bait a reaction and to punish correct reads. It works as a mind game because every time the character dodges he could be going for the bash and in Conq's case he can delay it quite a considerable time. That will still remain. The only difference is that you won't be able to be reckless with it by abusing a broken recovery and will instead have to be more careful in making correct reads on your opponent.

Any of Conq's attacks can be cancelled into full block including charged heavies and lights. That's not exactly nothing. In fact it's a very useable mind game if played smartly. Do you see where I'm going with this? If played smartly he suddenly has other tools at his disposal. He has a zone that keeps him safe from attacks, again that's not nothing. Does he have the most extensive offensive options? No, but he does have enough offensive options to be useable outside of just being a shield bash platform.



Please quote anyone let alone me saying anything like that first point.
That's my reading of the majority of responses including yours. You acknowledge the recovery is broken yet any time someone says it should be normalised you refuse to debate with them on a basic civil level. This has the effect of portraying you as someone who simply finds it too hard to use the rest of Conq's kit so you won't even try because shield bash is too good and you're perfectly fine with this.

Wouldn't it be interesting to find out just how much more you would discover about playing Conq if that one move stops being the only tool you will ever need in a fight. Plenty of heroes have to be played smartly to achieve wins so what's wrong with adding Conq to that list?



More than half of these are already considered C Tier characters in Duel except Centurion and Shinibo. Don't take my word for it: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bk6y7jw2ujLrjm0Zzbb4aEZUV13gyGoy-IobrkfNgaY/edit#gid=0

And none of these have even gotten their rework yet.

So basically the best you could come up with is that Conqueror with a nerfed shield bash and no other changes.... won't be worse than Shugoki??? That's an absolutely terrible argument, I can't believe you actually came here with that and on top of it how smug you are while doing it.
Here you go taking a different opinion on Conq so personally that you actually manage to imagine a state of feeling such as smugness somehow imprinted into text on a screen. Let me make this perfectly clear to you; this is something that you and you alone are bringing from your own internal thoughts, it has nothing to do with the emotionally neutral post that I wrote.

What you failed to comprehend is that I was pointing out that Conq will still be leagues ahead of those characters. Many people including yourself are going on about how Conq will be trash tier without his exploit abuse. I disagree. I think he has enough options to be in low A-tier once his recovery is normalised. That doesn't mean I'm against his light damage being improved to 18 for example or even letting him hard cancel out of his shield bash from neutral like Tiandi and Jiang Jung can do with their dodge attacks. I do however feel all this wild dramatisation about Conq becoming garbage tier is just fear mongering.



"Obfuscating" is Vakris's word of the month or something. I'm glad the guy is trying to expand his vocabulary and all but he should probably learn what the definition is before using it so much.
As expected from you, a pointless deviation to comment on the use of a word just like your deviations about spelling and grammar. The tell tale signs of someone unable to formulate a counter argument so they shift attention to nitpicking the use of words. Pathetic really. A shame that you fold so easily. An even bigger shame that you display a complete lack of understanding of the English language while attempting to incorrectly criticise the correct use of the term "Obfuscating". Might I suggest you invest in a dictionary to avoid future linguistic face plants.



But I digress, Nobody is "obfuscating" here because that's not a fact. Even Charmzz, one of the most vocal and butt hurt Anti-Conqs have had to admit there's at least 200ms of a window to side dodge and GB a shield bash. So take it up with with the Blubberer n Chief over there.
On the contrary, what you are doing is the textbook definition of obfuscation. You are hiding the true facts behind a logical fallacy. What does a theoretical number on a screen matter when in the live game it does not exist? In the live PvP game no one except Raider can GB punish a whiffed Conq bash from neutral. You can do it all you like in the perfect environment of the bot training mode (which is the logical fallacy you are crutching on) but in PvP it is a widely known fact that characters without a dodge attack cannot punish a whiffed Conq bash.

If you disagree go take it up with the competitive community because apparently you know something they and over 70% of the For Honor community in general don't.



It's so sad how Vakris resorts to grandstanding over a phrase he made up and simply insists is a rule that the game must abide by.
What phrase did I make up? Maybe I can copyright it and earn royalties.



But what is Vakris supposed to do? Get a real argument that isn't an absolute disaster like "Conq won't be worse than Shugoki so it's all good"?
Nice quotation marks for something I never said. When you can't come up with a good arguement it's always easier to invent works of fiction I guess.

I'd just like to say that your continual failure to conduct yourself with even basic civility and common courtesy when no hostility has been shown you only serves to sabotage your own arguments and harms your credibility. If you are okay with being your own worst enemy then please continue as you are.

DefiledDragon
09-16-2018, 02:24 AM
This "argument" is pointless. The Conq mains will never accept that he's OP and the people who know he's OP will never concede that he isn't. /thread tbh.

ChampionRuby50g
09-16-2018, 03:08 AM
I want to buy you a beer after that Vakris, seriously donít know how you have the patience. +1

Tundra 793
09-16-2018, 03:46 AM
I want to buy you a beer after that Vakris, seriously don’t know how you have the patience. +1

If we're buying Vakris beers for patience, I'm pretty sure I owe him a case.

Hormly
09-16-2018, 04:49 AM
Vakris is collecting heads in this thread

Furthermore, do ballance patches even happen anymore? Seems the problems with the roster have all existed as they do now for many many months. I get the impression that the devs are long through with ballance patches honestly.

Alustar.
09-16-2018, 05:05 AM
Let me see that even characters with dodge attacks can barely counted the shoulder bash to light chain. If your dodge strike is not immediate, there is a high probability that his hit will connect as or before yours does.
Additionally, most conquerors hardly ever just light-shoulder bash/rinse and repeat. In 4v4 they will typically alternate 2-3 hit chains between them, switching targets to keep from getting parried. Doesn't matter if they whiff the SB or not, with these recovery times it's nothing.
To take a page from the devs own notes, dodge recovery times themselves are normalized to allow for less guess work and a more easily read flow of combat across the board as far as punishes go. This was done as a means of balancing the game after the loss of the parry meta, since not landing a GB anymore meant that if another change wasn't added, assassins and characters with dodge strike would be the most viable choices.
This is the underlying problem with conqueror right now. I'd not hotter much damage he's thing or if he's top of the class, the recovery breaks the rules that were assumed established.

ArchDukeInstinct
09-16-2018, 05:27 AM
ArchDuke, it's unfortunate how you always have to resort to petty little insults instead of sticking to arguing your points. You might find more people inclined to see your point of view if you weren't so overly abrasive on purpose. Honest question: are you capable of handling disagreements over your main without making it personal? If the answer is yes then please reign in your nasty attitude and try to have a civil discussion for a change.

I don't resort to insults, I always address or rebut the opposing argument (or lack thereof in your case) with logic and evidence. Then I will add in a couple flourishes which are warranted. The fact that you cling onto that to try to score some cheap points only demonstrates to me just how weak you know your position is.


Everyone knows it's not punishable by characters who have no dodge attack. This is a widely known fact among the community.

It's a myth. Just test it out for yourself in the training arena where you can be sure that the bot won't miss any counter GBs. You can get a side dodge gb to land on a forward dodge into shield bash if you react fast enough. You can continue to ignore it, that's your problem.


Your assumption is that shield bash will be outright deleted just because it gets a normalised recovery. That's faulty logic. If it were true then similiar moves that bait out a reaction like Warden's bash, Shaman's bash, LB's bash, Warlord headbutt, etc would be completely useless unless they had no GB punish on whiff, but that's not true now is it? Played smartly a bash such as Conq's that can be delayed can be used to bait a reaction and to punish correct reads. It works as a mind game because every time the character dodges he could be going for the bash and in Conq's case he can delay it quite a considerable time. That will still remain. The only difference is that you won't be able to be reckless with it by abusing a broken recovery and will instead have to be more careful in making correct reads on your opponent.

Warden's bash is already significantly superior than Conqueror's bash because A) You can cancel it and go into a GB B) Even the uncharged bash will reward you with a greater amount of damage that's much more worthy of the risk you take C) If you dodge early and then find out it's a charged bash, say goodbye to 40 health. D) Both the uncharged and charged will immediately lead into an unblockable heavy followup. It's quite simple, if you get a higher reward you get a higher risk.

As for shaman's bash, I hardly see them do it (really makes you think, doesn't it?) but it also gives you much more damage than Conq would get, can wall splat, and you can go into a left side heavy finisher followup off of it.

LB's bash from neutral is just bad. It's got some nice things like hyper armor so you can't ward it off with pre-preemptive lights and you could potentially get decent damage if the opponent does the wrong thing at the wrong time. It's concerning to me that you actually think LB is decent in duel let alone that his bash from neutral is decent.

Warlord's head butt is pretty much the closest thing to Conqueror's bash. Fast, low damage, and no potential follow ups but has slightly more recovery on miss. Yes, Warlord will do it from time to time in duel but it's actually pretty rare even though because it's really not worth it when your opponent has to fail at reacting on time to a 500ms bash at least twice as many times just for you to maybe break even.

You point out the variable timing of shield bash, unfortunately that will be basically irrelevant once it's easier to punish on reaction. Also I'd like to comment on how much stock people put into the variable timing and while that's a difference from other bashes, it's still telegraphing the move quite heavily. Take Peacekeeper's zone attack for example, while I'd agree it's much easier to defend against while getting no punish, parrying a 400ms attack so you can punish? It'd be difficult to get that based on reaction alone, and you don't even get any telegraphing beforehand.


Any of Conq's attacks can be cancelled into full block including charged heavies and lights. That's not exactly nothing. In fact it's a very useable mind game if played smartly. Do you see where I'm going with this? If played smartly he suddenly has other tools at his disposal. He has a zone that keeps him safe from attacks, again that's not nothing. Does he have the most extensive offensive options? No, but he does have enough offensive options to be useable outside of just being a shield bash platform.

I'm afraid your information is 7 months old. Conqueror lost the ability to cancel light attacks with full block stance with the rework. I'm not surprised though, if you had up to date information regarding Conqueror, then you wouldn't be insisting that he had good offense outside of shield bash.


That's my reading of the majority of responses including yours. You acknowledge the recovery is broken yet any time someone says it should be normalised you refuse to debate with them on a basic civil level. This has the effect of portraying you as someone who simply finds it too hard to use the rest of Conq's kit so you won't even try because shield bash is too good and you're perfectly fine with this.

I said the move was a cheap crutch as in it is spammy and is harder to counteract than it is to use effectively, not that it was broken. Like I said, your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired.


Wouldn't it be interesting to find out just how much more you would discover about playing Conq if that one move stops being the only tool you will ever need in a fight. Plenty of heroes have to be played smartly to achieve wins so what's wrong with adding Conq to that list?

Sorry to once again use my signature "I've been maining Conq since open beta" but yeah I've been maining Conq since open beta. There are no moves I have not put to the test in countless duels. I have experimented very much with the charged heavy unblockable for instance, it simply isn't good enough to work competitively.

Who are you to assume that I simply never tried the other moves, exactly?

At of the end of the day, outside of shield bash, Conqueror's attacks are slow and are ripe for punishing and most of them do very low damage relative to other characters. The problem is compounded when you do not have a proper standard feint and instead have to rely on the risky full block stance which significantly delays any follow up attacks or guard breaks or leave you vulnerable to the opponent's unblockables.


Here you go taking a different opinion on Conq so personally that you actually manage to imagine a state of feeling such as smugness somehow imprinted into text on a screen. Let me make this perfectly clear to you; this is something that you and you alone are bringing from your own internal thoughts, it has nothing to do with the emotionally neutral post that I wrote.

Wow. A good ol' psychoanalysis through the internet from Vakris over here. That inkblot you have looks like my foot up your ***. Would you like to discuss it further, you quack?


What you failed to comprehend is that I was pointing out that Conq will still be leagues ahead of those characters. Many people including yourself are going on about how Conq will be trash tier without his exploit abuse. I disagree. I think he has enough options to be in low A-tier once his recovery is normalised. That doesn't mean I'm against his light damage being improved to 18 for example or even letting him hard cancel out of his shield bash from neutral like Tiandi and Jiang Jung can do with their dodge attacks. I do however feel all this wild dramatisation about Conq becoming garbage tier is just fear mongering.

I responded to what you said. What you said is that he "wouldn't be worse", not that he would be leagues above of them which I would strongly disagree with considering his opener lights are basically the same as Lawbringers except they do less damage. His light/heavy infinite chain is slower and does less damage than Aramushas. He has no hyper armor to trade with like a Shugoki. Shinibo does almost as much damage as Conqueror's heavy with his 500ms double lights. Now that doesn't mean he wouldn't be better but leagues above? No.


As expected from you, a pointless deviation to comment on the use of a word just like your deviations about spelling and grammar. The tell tale signs of someone unable to formulate a counter argument so they shift attention to nitpicking the use of words. Pathetic really. A shame that you fold so easily. An even bigger shame that you display a complete lack of understanding of the English language while attempting to incorrectly criticise the correct use of the term "Obfuscating". Might I suggest you invest in a dictionary to avoid future linguistic face plants

Another long winded detour from Vakris, where he pretends he automatically "wins" because I make one remark that may only be tangentially related. As you know you gotta be on topic 100% of the time and never say anything else or Vakris somehow wins by default.


On the contrary, what you are doing is the textbook definition of obfuscation. You are hiding the true facts behind a logical fallacy. What does a theoretical number on a screen matter when in the live game it does not exist? In the live PvP game no one except Raider can GB punish a whiffed Conq bash from neutral. You can do it all you like in the perfect environment of the bot training mode (which is the logical fallacy you are crutching on) but in PvP it is a widely known fact that characters without a dodge attack cannot punish a whiffed Conq bash.

If you disagree go take it up with the competitive community because apparently you know something they and over 70% of the For Honor community in general don't.

"The true facts"
"a theoretical number"
"you are crutching on"
"bot training mode (which is the logical fallacy)"

This is just a dumb person pretending to be an intellectual. That "theoretical" number isn't based off of "just a theory", it's calculated from actual, definitive values we know from the game.. For example, we don't poll the community and their walmart modems to get their estimation of what an attack's speed is, we get that information from patch notes from the devs themselves or from testing in-game and counting frames or timing them.

Furthermore you speak of what the competitive community thinks, but so far, Skorbrand, an actual tournament level player puts Conqueror behind Berserker, Gladiator, and Warlord. That sure is weird considering you say shield bash is just so dang broken after all.


What phrase did I make up? Maybe I can copyright it and earn royalties.

Your good ol' "normalized recovery mechanics". You sound like DSP saying nonsense like that.


Nice quotation marks for something I never said. When you can't come up with a good arguement it's always easier to invent works of fiction I guess.

Except you did say it. You said Conqueror wouldn't be worse off than a list of heroes containing Shugoki. What other interpretation should be extracted from that?


I'd just like to say that your continual failure to conduct yourself with even basic civility and common courtesy when no hostility has been shown you only serves to sabotage your own arguments and harms your credibility. If you are okay with being your own worst enemy then please continue as you are.

Yeah, Vakris, you're just a paragon of courtesy and civility, you never ever said anything disparaging about anyone without provocation. Just like you were 3 weeks ago when I didn't insult you once and you immediately blast me calling me I quote "the premiere toxic forum Conq main himself appears to defend his baby against all logic and reason"

ArchDukeInstinct
09-16-2018, 05:41 AM
Also, before I forget. Vakris once again failed to even try to demonstrate how the charged heavy, shield uppercut, or light/heavy infinite combo were decent offensive options for Conqueror. Leaving us with a grand total of 0 moves that Vakris has proven to be good alternative offense options for Conqueror. That's really weird for someone who is so confident that Conqueror has "one of the best kits" in the game. It's really weird for someone whose entire argument hinges on there being all these untapped offensive options that we Conqueror mains just won't use because we're just so dang stubborn or unable.

I guess he was too busy typing up those several paragraphs that basically just called me a "big meanie".

I can easily point out how all of these offensive options fail on a moment's notice but we have to wait weeks from Vakris (counting the thread from a couple weeks ago) and he still fails to argue for even one of them.

Specialkha
09-16-2018, 09:57 AM
Your point is flawed. Against a bot in arena, you have 0 ms of latency and such. You can even parry everything he throws at you. Can you parry everything a player does as well? The answer is no. Same deal for the Shield bash. That move is too safe, can be spammed, etc...

There is a reason Conq is Top 1 in everyhting.

Deal with it.

ArchDukeInstinct
09-16-2018, 10:13 AM
Your point is flawed. Against a bot in arena, you have 0 ms of latency and such. You can even parry everything he throws at you. Can you parry everything a player as well? The answer is no. Same deal for the Shield bash. That move is too safe, can be spammed, etc...

It's 2018, bro. Typical ping is easily under 20ms and For Honor has lag compensation up to 33ms... Sorry you got that Walmart modem apparently. Do you really think I've never experienced in online play as well? It happens all the time but since I know people will just say "Oh you just missed the counter guard break", I've tested in the training arena against a bot as well to prove it definitively.


There is a reason Conq is Top 1 in everyhting

Not according to the competitive reddit's tier list so feel free to start crying.

Specialkha
09-16-2018, 10:16 AM
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bk6y7jw2ujLrjm0Zzbb4aEZUV13gyGoy-IobrkfNgaY/edit#gid=0

Except in dominion were Shaman shines thanks to pounce, Conq is very solid overall.

You look like more and more like Charmzz when he was defending PK, funny :)

Block to right and git gud, ez! Sounds familiar?

Btw, so you can parry everything a players does then? If not, same deal for shield bash, simple as that. The window to punish that move is too small, only raider can punish it steadily on prediction.

ArchDukeInstinct
09-16-2018, 11:13 AM
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bk6y7jw2ujLrjm0Zzbb4aEZUV13gyGoy-IobrkfNgaY/edit#gid=0

Except in dominion were Shaman shines thanks to pounce, Conq is very solid overall.

Right, except you said Conq was "top 1" in everything. Yet he's not top 1 in either dominion or duel according to an actual pro. Aforementioned pro mysteriously did not mention the supposed impossibility of punishing a shield bash. Really makes you think. It's almost like it's not true.


You look like more and more like Charmzz when he was defending PK, funny :)

Block to right and git gud, ez! Sounds familiar?

Disagreed, I don't tell people to "git gud" and that it is easy to catch the shield bash's miss recovery. I simply point out that it is possible to do and quite consistently in the training arena. The sooner we can move on from this myth the better.


Btw, so you can parry everything a players does then? If not, same deal for shield bash, simple as that. The window to punish that move is too small, only raider can punish it steadily on prediction.

It's apples and oranges. You have to determine whether it is a light or heavy so you can know what the parry timing will be, there is a specific timing window you must hit, you have to be in the right direction, you also need to take into account that it might be feigned. With shield bash, you simply dodge in any direction (minus forward, to avoid confusion for Anti-Conqs...) as soon as you see the highly telegraphed move (Conq literally glows orange and the unblockable indicator shows and the move is preceded by a dodge) is initiated.

Also just because something is possible does not mean you will perfectly execute it every time which is the point of the low recovery. It's to make it so it's not so easy to get a punish which will deal twice the damage than the reward Conqueror would get from a successful one. It's really not rocket science.

Specialkha
09-16-2018, 12:18 PM
Well, it was possible to block right and PK was still top 1 despite that. Guess what that means for Conq :)

Alustar.
09-16-2018, 12:48 PM
Wait so now you are trying to use "pro play" arguments? Dude, just stop. You are prolonging like a completely blind, ignorant and overly combative tool who's upset that everyone wants to take away his toys. Sorry you can't seem to about it but the SB is bogus, and it's going to go. Guess you might as well take Vakris advice and start learning to actually play the game the rest of us are.

Vakris_One
09-16-2018, 07:26 PM
I don't resort to insults...
Well that's a brazen lie...


they started their obligatory blubbering over Conqueror "stealing" PK's #1 spot in duel.



I can't believe you actually came here with that and on top of it how smug you are while doing it.



"Obfuscating" is Vakris's word of the month or something. I'm glad the guy is trying to expand his vocabulary and all but he should probably learn what the definition is before using it so much.



Even Charmzz, one of the most vocal and butt hurt Anti-Conqs...



So take it up with with the Blubberer n Chief over there.



It's so sad how Vakris resorts to grandstanding over a phrase he made up and simply insists is a rule that the game must abide by. But what is Vakris supposed to do? Get a real argument


That inkblot you have looks like my foot up your ***. Would you like to discuss it further, you quack?



This is just a dumb person pretending to be an intellectual


Sorry you got that Walmart modem apparently...


Not according to the competitive reddit's tier list so feel free to start crying.


You sound like DSP saying nonsense like that.
The truth speaks for itself, and that's only from the last two pages of this thread. As I said ArchDuke, you are your own worst enemy with the way you behave. At this point you're scoring so many own goals against yourself that you don't even need an opponent.



It's a myth. Just test it out for yourself in the training arena where you can be sure that the bot won't miss any counter GBs. You can get a side dodge gb to land on a forward dodge into shield bash if you react fast enough. You can continue to ignore it, that's your problem.
The training arena has 0 latency and is a perfect environment that is never replicated in the PvP game. This is why you can parry PK zones on reaction in the training arena but you can't do that in PvP. You need to update your knowledge of the game. If you still insist that it's a myth and insist about how you can GB punish Conq bash in the PvP game then go take it up with the competitive community because apparently you can do something even the highest echelon of players cannot.



Warden's bash is already significantly superior than Conqueror's bash because A) You can cancel it and go into a GB B) Even the uncharged bash will reward you with a greater amount of damage that's much more worthy of the risk you take C) If you dodge early and then find out it's a charged bash, say goodbye to 40 health. D) Both the uncharged and charged will immediately lead into an unblockable heavy followup. It's quite simple, if you get a higher reward you get a higher risk.
"great amount of damage"? The uncharged version gives him 18 damage from a double side light. He risks 20 damage dodge attacks. The uncharged version doesn't get a 40 damage top heavy and neither version gets the unblockable as the shoulder bash is not counted as a chain starter. Your knowledge of Warden is a bit lacking.

Yes, Warden's bash is mechanically much better than Conq's but the point is it doesn't have and has never needed a broken recovery to be viable. If he whiffs you get to GB punish him. That's fair. If Conq whiffs you get no GB punish. That's not fair because it is bypassing the fundamental mechanics of the game. You want a buff to Conq's shield bash to compensate the loss of an exploit? Fine, I already suggested giving him 18 damage lights and being able to hard cancel out of the bash like Tiandi and JJ. But you ignored those suggestions completely for some reason.



As for shaman's bash, I hardly see them do it (really makes you think, doesn't it?) but it also gives you much more damage than Conq would get, can wall splat, and you can go into a left side heavy finisher followup off of it.
You can GB punish her on whiff though, she's not bypassing the game's mechanics to score safe damage. She's always risking being punished even against characters without dodge attacks. Conq scores completely safe damage (zero risk) on a character that cannot dodge attack because his recovery bypasses the game's recovery mechanics. Conq can play his bait game all day long with a character that has no dodge attack so while his lights do less damage than Shaman's follow up after a bash, he can score them consistently and safely against certain heroes and he can also bait them into a GB which then nets him a big damage GB punish. So why is it Conq should keep his broken recovery when nothing about the rest of his bait and punish tool will change?



LB's bash from neutral is just bad. It's got some nice things like hyper armor so you can't ward it off with pre-preemptive lights and you could potentially get decent damage if the opponent does the wrong thing at the wrong time. It's concerning to me that you actually think LB is decent in duel let alone that his bash from neutral is decent.
When did I say LB is decent in duel? You're inventing things to try and get me into an argument I did not even make. My argument was that these characters with bashes manage to still use their bashes without needing the crutch of an non-GB punishable recovery. LB's potential in duel depends on how you play him. If you play him like Spliced for example with constant unlocking, running back and forth and that kind of nonsense he becomes a disgusting opponent to face. I'm not saying LB's bash is the gold standard. What I am saying is that a LB player can manage to use it at opportune times if he plays smartly. So if arguably the worst bash in the game can still be used without crutching on a broken recovery then you really have no grounds to complain that Conq's bash - a much better bash than LB and Warlord's headbutt - will suddenly become useless simply because its recovery is normalised..



Warlord's head butt is pretty much the closest thing to Conqueror's bash. Fast, low damage, and no potential follow ups but has slightly more recovery on miss. Yes, Warlord will do it from time to time in duel but it's actually pretty rare even though because it's really not worth it when your opponent has to fail at reacting on time to a 500ms bash at least twice as many times just for you to maybe break even.
So you seem to believe that a bash is only viable if it cannot be GB punished on a whiff, is this correct? And if so then why not give everyone a bash that cannot be punished by GB on a whiff? Won't the game be fun then.



You point out the variable timing of shield bash, unfortunately that will be basically irrelevant once it's easier to punish on reaction. Also I'd like to comment on how much stock people put into the variable timing and while that's a difference from other bashes, it's still telegraphing the move quite heavily. Take Peacekeeper's zone attack for example, while I'd agree it's much easier to defend against while getting no punish, parrying a 400ms attack so you can punish? It'd be difficult to get that based on reaction alone, and you don't even get any telegraphing beforehand.
It's not about how telegraphed it is, it's about how long of a window the Conq has to engage into the bash. That is a useful tool. It essentially means that no one will preemptively go for a GB as soon as they see his dodge, nor will they be sure they can go for a GB until the Conq can no longer react to them with a bash. That's already a very useful advantage over bashes that cannot be delayed. We'll have to agree to disagree that his bash will be severely compromised just because he will no longer be cheating his way around the recovery mechanic.



I'm afraid your information is 7 months old. Conqueror lost the ability to cancel light attacks with full block stance with the rework. I'm not surprised though, if you had up to date information regarding Conqueror, then you wouldn't be insisting that he had good offense outside of shield bash.
He still gets a useful mind game out of it with heavies and charged heavies. If you want Conq to have better offensive tools then petition the devs to give him them, that would be the productive and positive way to insure your Conq's future. But all you do is insist that he must keep his broken recovery and you seek to block any kind of changes on Conq that would allow the game to be in a healthier state. I understand you don't want him becoming bottom tier again, I get that and I don't want that either. I've felt the pain of my favourite hero Kensei being bottom tier for 5 Seasons straight. However I don't want heroes who can bypass the mechanics of the game because that is not healthy for the game.

Basically saying, "make the game healthier by touching other heroes but don't you dare touch my main's broken crutch." is not good in my opinon. Sooner or later it will be changed because Conq is part of the problem not part of the solution for a healthier and more balanced game. Trying your best to delay changes that will improve the game as a whole is just fighting uselessly against the wave and you would be better served by trying to get Conq more of the tools you want him to have rather than getting hung up on delaying the normalisation of a broken mechanic, which will happen eventually anyway.



Sorry to once again use my signature "I've been maining Conq since open beta" but yeah I've been maining Conq since open beta. There are no moves I have not put to the test in countless duels. I have experimented very much with the charged heavy unblockable for instance, it simply isn't good enough to work competitively.

Who are you to assume that I simply never tried the other moves, exactly?
It's the way you conduct yourself. Brutish, prickly and needlessly hostile to even just a basic difference of opinions. Those are usually the hallmarks of a closed mind and a rigid mentality that only sticks to what they know and refuses to learn anything that isn't the easiest available tool at the time. I will fully acknowledge if I'm wrong and apologise for it but since all I have to work with is your nasty and provocative attitude on this forum, well...



At of the end of the day, outside of shield bash, Conqueror's attacks are slow and are ripe for punishing and most of them do very low damage relative to other characters. The problem is compounded when you do not have a proper standard feint and instead have to rely on the risky full block stance which significantly delays any follow up attacks or guard breaks or leave you vulnerable to the opponent's unblockables.
I can understand that and you explained it well. Would the ability to hard cancel out of his shield bashes from neutral add to his ability to bait and punish opponents? And if his all-block was activated faster while in a chain would that give it more utility?



Wow. A good ol' psychoanalysis through the internet from Vakris over here. That inkblot you have looks like my foot up your ***. Would you like to discuss it further, you quack?
No idea why you decided to go full hostile here as I did not insult you. In fact I was responding to your insult on me and I did it without resorting to insulting you back. You were imagining the feeling of smugness through text on a screen which I found silly since a) I had no such emotion while typing the text and b) interpreting emotions and feelings by looking at text on a screen is pretty silly.

Quack, quack, I guess? Since you're apparently down to childish playground antics now.



I responded to what you said. What you said is that he "wouldn't be worse", not that he would be leagues above of them which I would strongly disagree with considering his opener lights are basically the same as Lawbringers except they do less damage. His light/heavy infinite chain is slower and does less damage than Aramushas. He has no hyper armor to trade with like a Shugoki. Shinibo does almost as much damage as Conqueror's heavy with his 500ms double lights. Now that doesn't mean he wouldn't be better but leagues above? No.
No, you over blew what I said and decided to take a personal shot at me because in your imagination I was apparently sitting in the corner with a champagne glass raised and a Leonardo DiCaprio shaped smug expression on my face. Conq is S-tier because of that recovery. He will come down to low A-teir at best when it is normalised. That's pretty much what I have to say on that.



Another long winded detour from Vakris, where he pretends he automatically "wins" because I make one remark that may only be tangentially related. As you know you gotta be on topic 100% of the time and never say anything else or Vakris somehow wins by default.
No, you just have to know what you are talking about when attempting to criticise the correct use of a word in the English language, which you embarrassingly face planted on. And you also should stick to attacking the argument being made instead of attacking the poster directly via attempting to sabotage the debate by making it about their choice of words. These are just basic common manners when engaging someone in a discussion, ArchDuke. Most people learn about this in primary school.



"The true facts"
"a theoretical number"
"you are crutching on"
"bot training mode (which is the logical fallacy)"

This is just a dumb person pretending to be an intellectual. That "theoretical" number isn't based off of "just a theory", it's calculated from actual, definitive values we know from the game.. For example, we don't poll the community and their walmart modems to get their estimation of what an attack's speed is, we get that information from patch notes from the devs themselves or from testing in-game and counting frames or timing them.
And another completely unprovoked insult from you. Is this because I use big threatening words like "obfuscate" and "logical fallacy"?



Furthermore you speak of what the competitive community thinks, but so far, Skorbrand, an actual tournament level player puts Conqueror behind Berserker, Gladiator, and Warlord. That sure is weird considering you say shield bash is just so dang broken after all.
Ok, since we're going to go down the route of "crutch my argument's validity with a Tournament player's opinions". Skor puts Conq in S-tier in both Brawl and Duel and A in Dominion. With top in Brawl. That's not strong enough for you? Quibbling about Skor putting Conq ONLY in 4th place in S-tier. Only 4th in S-tier. Are you aware how silly your argument sounds? "Conq is mediocre guys because Skorbrand only puts him in 4th spot on S-tier."... Just so we're clear on the ESP psychic signals my text is giving off right now - I was actually laughing as I typed that.

Did you check out who he put in 5th place behind Conq? Warden. So I guess that means Conq is stronger than Warden. I mean if we're going to use Skorbrand's opinion as validation we need to go the full hog and not just what suits your agenda. Well damn... Conq is stronger is Warden. That must mean Conq has more offensive tools and a better bash than Warden according to a tournament level player! Mystery solved on the whole, "is Conq's offense viable?" argument then. Let's check out what Skor writes about Conq,

For reference:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bk6y7jw2ujLrjm0Zzbb4aEZUV13gyGoy-IobrkfNgaY/edit#gid=0

In Brawl his notes say:

"Conqueror - Strong pressure with shield bash and risky to punish the bash due to risk of him entering full block."

- "Risky to punish the bash due to risk of him entering full block." If that's not an admission that Conq's recovery is so fast that you cannot safely disrupt his shield bash before he recovers and does full block then I don't know what planet you're living on but it's not this one.

In Duel his notes say:

"Conqueror - Strong offense in the form of variable timing forward shield bashes and strong defense with zone, full block, and a myriad of ways to parry all with different ways to punish that parry attempt such as with zone, charging heavy, or raw heavy and its various feints. Tough matchup with highlander."

- "Strong offense".

- "Strong." "Offense"

Uh-oh... There goes your argument about Conq not having a good offense in duel. And "a myriad of ways to parry all with different ways to punish that parry attempt such as with zone, charging heavy, or raw heavy and its various feints.". Well I'll be damned. Conq has a strong offence, a strong defence and a variety in his feint and bait options in order to score punishes. Very illuminating.

Thank you for bringing up Skrobrand's tier list ArchDuke. It sure cleared up a lot of the myths about Conq :)

So it turns out Conq isn't necessarily just a one trick pony but his broken recovery is definitely the reason he is in S-tier. He has a strong offence - go figure! - so once they normalise his recovery it is logical to assume that he will drop to A-tier where all the most well balanced heroes reside. But that's just my opinion of course. I am on the competitive Discord so I can shoot Skor a PM if you want and ask him what he thinks will happen to Conq once his recovery is normalised?



Your good ol' "normalized recovery mechanics".
So what about the phrase is made up? The devs themselves have stated they want to normalise all of the fundamental mechanics of the game so that it is more consistent. This includes things like parry punishes, dodge recoveries and attack recoveries. I think you might have gotten confused here.



Except you did say it. You said Conqueror wouldn't be worse off than a list of heroes containing Shugoki. What other interpretation should be extracted from that?
I asked whether you think he will be worse off than bottom tier heroes like Shugo. That's different than the words you put into my mouth. But hey, according to Skor Conq is more than fine so it's all good.



Yeah, Vakris, you're just a paragon of courtesy and civility, you never ever said anything disparaging about anyone without provocation. Just like you were 3 weeks ago when I didn't insult you once and you immediately blast me calling me I quote "the premiere toxic forum Conq main himself appears to defend his baby against all logic and reason"
No mate, I respond in kind with the attitude I see displayed towards me and others. Re-examine your first posts in that thread and you will find that it was you who conducted yourself like a brutish tool to begin with without any initial provocations from anyone.Don't expect others to remain civil when you are clearly being confrontational and a jerk to them for no reason.

I'm no saint and I have never attempted to claim that I am. I am however making the effort to reign in my responses and attempt to be civil about things, which is more than you can say for yourself. I don't know why you behave like this but the bottom line is; I'm not interested in making this personal with you and you will never succeed in goading me into making it personal. The only result you will achieve if you persist in being nasty is in getting yourself banned from the forum.

ArchDukeInstinct
09-16-2018, 08:10 PM
Well, it was possible to block right and PK was still top 1 despite that. Guess what that means for Conq :)

Well I guess everyone with an unblockable must be top 1 then, right?


Wait so now you are trying to use "pro play" arguments? Dude, just stop.

Actually, Vakris started with the "pro play" arguments. Read the following quote:


If you disagree go take it up with the competitive community because apparently you know something they and over 70% of the For Honor community in general don't.


You are prolonging like a completely blind, ignorant and overly combative tool who's upset that everyone wants to take away his toys. Sorry you can't seem to about it but the SB is bogus, and it's going to go. Guess you might as well take Vakris advice and start learning to actually play the game the rest of us are.

You're right, Alustar. I just need to learn how to play the game like you. So could you please teach me how to have a negative KDR while maining S1-S4 Peacekeeper? Pretty please???

Alustar.
09-16-2018, 09:01 PM
Well I guess everyone with an unblockable must be top 1 then, right?



Actually, Vakris started with the "pro play" arguments. Read the following quote:





You're right, Alustar. I just need to learn how to play the game like you. So could you please teach me how to have a negative KDR while maining S1-S4 Peacekeeper? Pretty please???

And now you complete the ad hominem trifecta return a K/D reference from last year. Let's not forget how often I argued about viable fixes to peacekeeper to help time her down, but that's not even the epic here. The topic is your inability to even attempt a logical and productive discouraging without insulting posters. But by all means, keep making yourself look like a tool.

Devils-_-legacy
09-16-2018, 09:26 PM
The competitive comment is true tho.
I've yet to meet a player who can consecutively shut down conquers in Dominion.
Have you got a vid so we can see what we're doing wrong?.

Dude your overall kd is only 1.10

ArchDukeInstinct
09-16-2018, 09:49 PM
Well that's a brazen lie...


The truth speaks for itself, and that's only from the last two pages of this thread. As I said ArchDuke, you are your own worst enemy with the way you behave. At this point you're scoring so many own goals against yourself that you don't even need an opponent.

My point was that I even though I will throw in insults, or flourishes as I like to call them, I will still argue and put forth a sound and valid argument at some point in the post. That's in stark contrast to you, who will never actually address the critical points of the argument and instead cries about insults. For instance, I asked you multiple times to demonstrate even one alternative offensive option for Conqueror and yet here we are at a whopping count of 0.

Indeed, I'll dog on your reading comprehension over and over again, but it's seriously that bad and is heavily affecting this discussion.


The training arena has 0 latency and is a perfect environment that is never replicated in the PvP game. This is why you can parry PK zones on reaction in the training arena but you can't do that in PvP. You need to update your knowledge of the game. If you still insist that it's a myth and insist about how you can GB punish Conq bash in the PvP game then go take it up with the competitive community because apparently you can do something even the highest echelon of players cannot.

I already addressed the latency absent the training arena. It simply isn't going to be enough when the window is hundreds of milliseconds... And plus, I've already seen it numerous times in online play since I actually play the class unlike you, remember? I point out the training arena so that there's no ability for you to blame it on human error.

As for PK zones, that's funny, because you complain you can't punish shield bash on reaction, yet you're okay with PK zone not being able to be punished on reaction? Looks like some anti-Conq bias here.


"great amount of damage"? The uncharged version gives him 18 damage from a double side light. He risks 20 damage dodge attacks. The uncharged version doesn't get a 40 damage top heavy and neither version gets the unblockable as the shoulder bash is not counted as a chain starter. Your knowledge of Warden is a bit lacking.

Your reading comprehension again, Vakris. I said "greater amount of damage". Not "great amount of damage". Greater amount of damage compared to Conqueror's 13 damage. Not that hard, Vakris.

Right, shoulder bash does not count as a chain starter.... The lights guaranteed from shoulder bash count as a chain starter... Wake up!


Yes, Warden's bash is mechanically much better than Conq's but the point is it doesn't have and has never needed a broken recovery to be viable. If he whiffs you get to GB punish him. That's fair. If Conq whiffs you get no GB punish. That's not fair because it is bypassing the fundamental mechanics of the game. You want a buff to Conq's shield bash to compensate the loss of an exploit? Fine, I already suggested giving him 18 damage lights and being able to hard cancel out of the bash like Tiandi and JJ. But you ignored those suggestions completely for some reason.

Right, it doesn't need a "broken recovery" because Warden's shoulder bash has much better rewards. Higher reward = higher risk. Did you even read my post?

I don't want to buff Conqueror's shield bash. I want to buff the offensive options that aren't viable so Conqueror can do something else other than shield bash. Why do you want a completely 1 dimensional character?

I ignore your suggestions because they're completely ridiculous even assuming there was greater recovery on shield bash's miss. If you seriously can't see the disaster a hard cancel on shield bash would be, then there is no helping you. It's a 500ms attack, dude. You can't have a cancel on that. Are you crazy? That would be legitimately OP and the biggest disaster I could think of. Just think about it. You simply go into shield bash and cancel until you see them dodge, then you immediately go into another shield bash and nail them during their dodge recovery.

If I genuinely wanted Conqueror to be unbeatable, then I would go with your suggestion of giving him 18 lights and a cancelable shield bash...


You can GB punish her on whiff though, she's not bypassing the game's mechanics to score safe damage. She's always risking being punished even against characters without dodge attacks. Conq scores completely safe damage (zero risk) on a character that cannot dodge attack because his recovery bypasses the game's recovery mechanics. Conq can play his bait game all day long with a character that has no dodge attack so while his lights do less damage than Shaman's follow up after a bash, he can score them consistently and safely against certain heroes and he can also bait them into a GB which then nets him a big damage GB punish. So why is it Conq should keep his broken recovery when nothing about the rest of his bait and punish tool will change?

Right and as I pointed out there's better rewards and Shamans still barely use the move... Shamans also has so much other offense. Like the amazing left heavy finisher unblockable that can be soft feigned into a guard break and the extremely fast dodge attacks.


When did I say LB is decent in duel? You're inventing things to try and get me into an argument I did not even make. My argument was that these characters with bashes manage to still use their bashes without needing the crutch of an non-GB punishable recovery. LB's potential in duel depends on how you play him. If you play him like Spliced for example with constant unlocking, running back and forth and that kind of nonsense he becomes a disgusting opponent to face. I'm not saying LB's bash is the gold standard. What I am saying is that a LB player can manage to use it at opportune times if he plays smartly. So if arguably the worst bash in the game can still be used without crutching on a broken recovery then you really have no grounds to complain that Conq's bash - a much better bash than LB and Warlord's headbutt - will suddenly become useless simply because its recovery is normalised..

Right, so your example is of some character that is C tier despite their oh so amazing bash with a miss recovery according to you. Lawbringer is a classic example of someone who has defense but is completely nonviable because he has no offense. The irony of bringing up Lawbringer here is astounding.

Conqueror's bash won't be better than Warlord's headbutt if the miss recovery is increased. That's the only thing making it better besides the variable timing (which really doesn't matter if you can so easily punish on reaction). Despite that, Warlord is still higher in Skorbrand's duel tier list. Weird, that, huh? It's almost like Warlord has something in addition to headbutt? I wonder if Skorbrand wrote about these other options somewhere on that tier list? Hmmmm

Now, as you point out, it certainly would be usable from time to time. That's where the lack of other offensive comes into play, because if his only offense is only usable once in a blue moon, that's a problem, right?


So you seem to believe that a bash is only viable if it cannot be GB punished on a whiff, is this correct? And if so then why not give everyone a bash that cannot be punished by GB on a whiff? Won't the game be fun then.

Well if your reading comprehension wasn't so bad, you would have acknowledged I pointed out why those other moves can still be viable outside of Warlord's and Lawbringers.


It's not about how telegraphed it is, it's about how long of a window the Conq has to engage into the bash. That is a useful tool. It essentially means that no one will preemptively go for a GB as soon as they see his dodge, nor will they be sure they can go for a GB until the Conq can no longer react to them with a bash. That's already a very useful advantage over bashes that cannot be delayed. We'll have to agree to disagree that his bash will be severely compromised just because he will no longer be cheating his way around the recovery mechanic.

It's called a light attack. That isn't going to bounce off like a guard break if it started up after the shield bash. Most characters have at least one light that is 500ms.


He still gets a useful mind game out of it with heavies and charged heavies. If you want Conq to have better offensive tools then petition the devs to give him them, that would be the productive and positive way to insure your Conq's future.

No he doesn't Vakris. You simply just need to be a little distance away while there is a charged heavy and then back dodge as soon as Conqueror does anything, you will automatically counter all following options, feign into GB, soft feint into shield uppercut, soft feint into shield bash mixup, letting the charged heavy rip. There's no mindgame because one solution with little effort beats all the options given you move into a position during the 800ms charge up time.


Basically saying, "make the game healthier by touching other heroes but don't you dare touch my main's broken crutch." is not good in my opinon. Sooner or later it will be changed because Conq is part of the problem not part of the solution for a healthier and more balanced game. Trying your best to delay changes that will improve the game as a whole is just fighting uselessly against the wave and you would be better served by trying to get Conq more of the tools you want him to have rather than getting hung up on delaying the normalisation of a broken mechanic, which will happen eventually anyway.

I've said on numerous occasions to nerf shield bash and buff other Conqueror offensive options. Sorry my solution is actually sane and beneficial to options other than the one that is already strong.


It's the way you conduct yourself. Brutish, prickly and needlessly hostile to even just a basic difference of opinions. Those are usually the hallmarks of a closed mind and a rigid mentality that only sticks to what they know and refuses to learn anything that isn't the easiest available tool at the time. I will fully acknowledge if I'm wrong and apologise for it but since all I have to work with is your nasty and provocative attitude on this forum, well...

Of course you have to complain about how I conduct myself because your argument is completely dead. In fact, it's been dead for 3 weeks. You still haven't manage to provide one example of effective Conqueror offensive outside of shield bash. You simply say that there's mindgames with the charged heavy which is simply false as I pointed out earlier.


I can understand that and you explained it well. Would the ability to hard cancel out of his shield bashes from neutral add to his ability to bait and punish opponents? And if his all-block was activated faster while in a chain would that give it more utility?

Why shield bash? Why does shield bash have to be the only offensive tool for Conqueror? Why??? What's the major malfunction where you can't see there's other Conqueror offense that needs help but all you want to do is make shield bash even better?

The all-block activation time isn't the problem, it's how much it delays other attacks you want to perform after you go into full block.


No idea why you decided to go full hostile here as I did not insult you. In fact I was responding to your insult on me and I did it without resorting to insulting you back. You were imagining the feeling of smugness through text on a screen which I found silly since a) I had no such emotion while typing the text and b) interpreting emotions and feelings by looking at text on a screen is pretty silly.

Quack, quack, I guess? Since you're apparently down to childish playground antics now.

Quack, quack, indeed, Vakris. I find it hilarious how much you lack a sense of humor. I guess the extent of your sense of humor is posting random pictures of Keanu Reeves. I'll discard some of your following comments because this is getting very long already.


Ok, since we're going to go down the route of "crutch my argument's validity with a Tournament player's opinions". Skor puts Conq in S-tier in both Brawl and Duel and A in Dominion. With top in Brawl. That's not strong enough for you? Quibbling about Skor putting Conq ONLY in 4th place in S-tier. Only 4th in S-tier. Are you aware how silly your argument sounds? "Conq is mediocre guys because Skorbrand only puts him in 4th spot on S-tier."... Just so we're clear on the ESP psychic signals my text is giving off right now - I was actually laughing as I typed that.

I never said Conqueror was mediocre. I said he has no offense outside of shield bash. You really are an expert at being purposely obtuse.


Did you check out who he put in 5th place behind Conq? Warden. So I guess that means Conq is stronger than Warden. I mean if we're going to use Skorbrand's opinion as validation we need to go the full hog and not just what suits your agenda. Well damn... Conq is stronger is Warden. That must mean Conq has more offensive tools and a better bash than Warden according to a tournament level player! Mystery solved on the whole, "is Conq's offense viable?" argument then. Let's check out what Skor writes about Conq,

For reference:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bk6y7jw2ujLrjm0Zzbb4aEZUV13gyGoy-IobrkfNgaY/edit#gid=0

Shouldn't he be number 1 because all Conqueror has to do is shield bash and it is unpunishable?


In Brawl his notes say:

"Conqueror - Strong pressure with shield bash and risky to punish the bash due to risk of him entering full block."

- "Risky to punish the bash due to risk of him entering full block." If that's not an admission that Conq's recovery is so fast that you cannot safely disrupt his shield bash before he recovers and does full block then I don't know what planet you're living on but it's not this one.

Right, that means too risky for your team mate to hit him with a light or heavy attack (hence fullblock) which will be at least 100ms longer because they'd probably be too far away to do a guard break. The discussion is about whether you can side dodge and get a guard break in time.

Also your argument isn't even that it's risky to punish, it's that it's impossible to do so. So what the heck?


In Duel his notes say:

"Conqueror - Strong offense in the form of variable timing forward shield bashes and strong defense with zone, full block, and a myriad of ways to parry all with different ways to punish that parry attempt such as with zone, charging heavy, or raw heavy and its various feints. Tough matchup with highlander."

- "Strong offense".

- "Strong." "Offense"

Uh-oh... There goes your argument about Conq not having a good offense in duel. And "a myriad of ways to parry all with different ways to punish that parry attempt such as with zone, charging heavy, or raw heavy and its various feints.". Well I'll be damned. Conq has a strong offence, a strong defence and a variety in his feint and bait options in order to score punishes. Very illuminating.

Thank you for bringing up Skrobrand's tier list ArchDuke. It sure cleared up a lot of the myths about Conq :)

So it turns out Conq isn't necessarily just a one trick pony but his broken recovery is definitely the reason he is in S-tier. He has a strong offence - go figure! - so once they normalise his recovery it is logical to assume that he will drop to A-tier where all the most well balanced heroes reside. But that's just my opinion of course. I am on the competitive Discord so I can shoot Skor a PM if you want and ask him what he thinks will happen to Conq once his recovery is normalised?

This actually illustrates my point perfectly, the only thing Skorbrand brings up as strong offense for Conqueror is shield bash. Where does he mention those amazing charged heavy mindgames you drone on about? Where does he mention shield uppercut? Where does he mention any offense outside of shield? Exactly, because that's the only noteworthy, effective offense Conqueror has.

Also notice the complete lack of any mention of the supposed inability to punish shield bash? Sure is weird huh, I guess this major "fact" just slipped Skorbrand's mind?

Instead Vakris grandstands as hard as possible on the phrase "strong offense", which is something nobody ever disputed, what the argument is that there is no good Conqueror offense EXCEPT shield bash. The funny thing is if Vakris was even vaguely competent then he would have pointed out what Skorbrand had to say about Warlord's headbutt. That would have been far more effective then pretending that people are saying Conqueror didn't have any offense at all when that never happened.

Sorry I forgot my colorful letters, I brought an actually valid argument to the table instead.


So what about the phrase is made up? The devs themselves have stated they want to normalise all of the fundamental mechanics of the game so that it is more consistent. This includes things like parry punishes, dodge recoveries and attack recoveries. I think you might have gotten confused here.

Well if that includes the miss recovery of bash attacks then why haven't they just done so already? lol


I asked whether you think he will be worse off than bottom tier heroes like Shugo. That's different than the words you put into my mouth. But hey, according to Skor Conq is more than fine so it's all good.

You're changing your story again. First you said he wouldn't be worse than Shugoki, then you said he would be leagues above, now you're back to saying he won't be worse than Shugoki? No he won't be worse than Shugoki, because Shugoki is in the same boat with no offensive options (minus shield bash)


No mate, I respond in kind with the attitude I see displayed towards me and others. Re-examine your first posts in that thread and you will find that it was you who conducted yourself like a brutish tool to begin with without any initial provocations from anyone.Don't expect others to remain civil when you are clearly being confrontational and a jerk to them for no reason.

And what did I do to conduct myself in a "brutal tool" like way in that thread before you started with the insults? Looks to me like I'm the one who responded in kind to you, except I'm actually good at it.

ArchDukeInstinct
09-16-2018, 10:06 PM
And now you complete the ad hominem trifecta return a K/D reference from last year. Let's not forget how often I argued about viable fixes to peacekeeper to help time her down, but that's not even the epic here. The topic is your inability to even attempt a logical and productive discouraging without insulting posters. But by all means, keep making yourself look like a tool.

I like how you just skip over the part where I point out Vakris started with the "pro play" arguments. Are you going to show a little integrity and call him out on it or what?

I'm fine if you want to complain about using "pro play" arguments, but just have a little consistency and impartiality before you call me the "tool".


The competitive comment is true tho.
I've yet to meet a player who can consecutively shut down conquers in Dominion.
Have you got a vid so we can see what we're doing wrong?.

Well thanks for your personal ancedote because that's what really counts, right?


Dude your overall kd is only 1.10

I'm not saying I'm the best player ever, but I'm clearly better than Alustar yet he's telling me to "git gud" when I have a positive KDR using a C tier character in duel for all of year 1 while he was using the absolute top 1 character for that time.

So you have an actual pro player and people with positive KDRs despite using C tier characters vs negative KDR using Peacekeeper. Take your pick.

Alustar.
09-16-2018, 10:13 PM
I like how you just skip over the part where I point out Vakris started with the "pro play" arguments. Are you going to show a little integrity and call him out on it or what?

I'm fine if you want to complain about using "pro play" arguments, but just have a little consistency and impartiality before you call me the "tool".



Well thanks for your personal ancedote because that's what really counts, right?



I'm not saying I'm the best player ever, but I'm clearly better than Alustar when I have a positive KDR using a C tier character in duel for all of year 1 while he was using the absolute top 1 character for that time.

So you have an actual pro player and people with positive KDRs despite using C tier characters vs negative KDR using Peacekeeper. Take your pick.

My over all K/D is 1.72 right now. ;)

ArchDukeInstinct
09-16-2018, 10:21 PM
My over all K/D is 1.72 right now. ;)

Sorry to break it to you, champ. But it's actually 0.98. https://fhtracker.com/profile/psn/Alustar

UbiInsulin
09-16-2018, 10:23 PM
Spirited debate is fine, but we're literally starting to argue about each other's K/D ratios instead of the Conqueror.

Please assume good faith on the part of your fellow forum users and don't make your comments personal. I'd prefer not to dish out infractions/delete posts.

Devils-_-legacy
09-16-2018, 10:33 PM
Not just my personal opinon not really but when the majority of a community says it should be toned and I myself came to the same conclusion from personal experiance rather then a small majority(with respect it's your main so I understand what your saying but it comes across a bit biased)
The thing is untill any data is released this is all speculation.
Come on your not a pro player lol none of us are you may be good but no one is pro unless your paid.
(How on apollyon did you get negative on pre dlc pk)(he's on pc now not ps4)

ArchDukeInstinct
09-16-2018, 10:45 PM
Not just my personal opinon not really but when the majority of a community says it should be toned and I myself came to the same conclusion from personal experiance rather then a small majority(with respect it's your main so I understand what your saying but it comes across a bit biased)
The thing is untill any data is released this is all speculation.
Come on your not a pro player lol none of us are you may be good but no one is pro unless your paid.

As I've said many times, I'm all for nerfing shield bash on its recovery time but I want other Conqueror offensive tools buffed in its place. I'm not going to call shield bash broken based on miss recovery because it just simply isn't true based on the testing I've done. I think instead of having one very strong tool, Conqueror should have multiple decent offensive options instead.


(How on apollyon did you get negative on pre dlc pk)(he's on pc now not ps4)

My bad, I was unaware he switched platforms.

Devils-_-legacy
09-16-2018, 11:00 PM
As I've said many times, I'm all for nerfing shield bash on its recovery time but I want other Conqueror offensive tools buffed in its place. I'm not going to call shield bash broken based on miss recovery because it just simply isn't true based on the testing I've done. I think instead of having one very strong tool, Conqueror should have multiple decent offensive options instead.

Yeah everyone can agree without sb being so powerful he needs some offensive adjustments as sb is the backbone of conquers kit but he should have more options to be viable then that single bash that enables free damage. the recovery part I can do it in the arena I can't replicate it in PvP dominion I'm not even sure why I've probably pulled it off 1 or 2 + they were complete flukes

ArchDukeInstinct
09-16-2018, 11:15 PM
Yeah everyone can agree without sb being so powerful he needs some offensive adjustments as sb is the backbone of conquers kit but he should have more options to be viable then that single bash that enables free damage. the recovery part I can do it in the arena I can't replicate it in PvP dominion I'm not even sure why I've probably pulled it off 1 or 2 + they were complete flukes

Not Vakris or Charmzz. They just keep saying his kit is basically perfect and whenever I ask for any competitively viable alternative offensive options, I never get anything back.

SnizzyWizzy
09-16-2018, 11:20 PM
So the only time UBI chimes in here is to calm the fight down. How about actually addressing the Conq issue? All you need to do is make this champ in line with the others and then there will be no need to fight anymore. Its pretty obvious that the community wants the conc to be toned down so if you really listen to your community you will address this. If not and you decide to leave him where he is please don't claim to listen to the community on balance. Its your game and you can do what you want but its obvious that the majority of players want to see the conc toned down.

Devils-_-legacy
09-17-2018, 12:12 AM
Well valks made a suggestion about buffing lights he needs more then that for him to be a viable tho but it's a start.
It might be because they don't have a suggestion as there not proficient enough to know what that hero needs(myself included).

ArchDukeInstinct
09-17-2018, 12:26 AM
Well valks made a suggestion about buffing lights he needs more then that for him to be a viable tho but it's a start.
It might be because they don't have a suggestion as there not proficient enough to know what that hero needs(myself included).

He also said there should be a hard cancel for shield bash. I really couldn't imagine a bigger disaster than shield bash having a cancel. Even with a larger miss recovery, this would be unbelievably broken. Meanwhile all the other offensive options are left to die? Ridiculous.

It doesn't matter if they are not proficient enough in the class. If they make a claim, then they need to prove it.

UbiInsulin
09-17-2018, 12:52 AM
So the only time UBI chimes in here is to calm the fight down. How about actually addressing the Conq issue? All you need to do is make this champ in line with the others and then there will be no need to fight anymore. Its pretty obvious that the community wants the conc to be toned down so if you really listen to your community you will address this. If not and you decide to leave him where he is please don't claim to listen to the community on balance. Its your game and you can do what you want but its obvious that the majority of players want to see the conc toned down.

We have reported community concerns with Conq's strength to the team, particularly with his SB.

Devils-_-legacy
09-17-2018, 01:18 AM
They don't need to prove it lol the rest of community agrees.
Your asking for alternatives to sb from people who don't play Conq how are they going to come up with anything viable? would be like me asking you to fix orochi.
Out of everyone you should be suggesting alternatives your rep 55 with him I would of thought that much experience you would of had some thoughts.

ArchDukeInstinct
09-17-2018, 01:47 AM
They don't need to prove it lol the rest of community agrees.
Your asking for alternatives to sb from people who don't play Conq how are they going to come up with anything viable? would be like me asking you to fix orochi.
Out of everyone you should be suggesting alternatives your rep 55 with him I would of thought that much experience you would of had some thoughts.

Well if they don't know what they are talking about, then they should stop claiming that Conqueror has all these amazing offensive tools outside of shield bash. Seems fair, no?

Devils-_-legacy
09-17-2018, 02:10 AM
No would be better if you made some suggestions on what other areas of his kit are lacking instead of *****ing on who said what like kids

ArchDukeInstinct
09-17-2018, 02:13 AM
No

K

ArchDukeInstinct
09-17-2018, 02:18 AM
would be better if you made some suggestions on what other areas of his kit are lacking instead of *****ing on who said what like kids

You're right, it's such a immature thing to hold people responsible for their own claims.

Maybe I'll write a thread for what my suggestions would be later.

Devils-_-legacy
09-17-2018, 02:26 AM
I would getting to rep 54 55 with Conq you would be one of few i can say would have a decent idea on how to improve him

Hormly
09-17-2018, 03:46 AM
The conq poops in his armor

Zombie.Face
09-17-2018, 06:10 AM
Honestly this is the longest a hero has been broken in my opinion. Whats the hold up here? Do we need to hit 80% before we can get a fix on this hero? Is this a troll by UBI to see how mad we can get? I don't get it.

Specialkha
09-17-2018, 06:50 AM
As I've said many times, I'm all for nerfing shield bash on its recovery time but I want other Conqueror offensive tools buffed in its place. I'm not going to call shield bash broken based on miss recovery because it just simply isn't true based on the testing I've done. I think instead of having one very strong tool, Conqueror should have multiple decent offensive options instead.



My bad, I was unaware he switched platforms.

Why should the conq have offensive tools while he has so many defensive ones? If shield bash is nerfed, he will fall in the A tier where all the BALANCED hero are? Is this bad?

ChampionRuby50g
09-17-2018, 06:55 AM
The conq poops in his armor

I thought that was a normal thing for the Knights.


Why should the conq have offensive tools while he has so many defensive ones? If shield bash is nerfed, he will fall in the A tier where all the BALANCED hero are? Is this bad?

Yes it is bad. Because Conq was one of the worst heroes in the game he should have a broken, OP move he can abuse to secure wins and if you disagree you hate Conq and think puppies arenít cute.

ArchDukeInstinct
09-17-2018, 08:35 AM
Why should the conq have offensive tools while he has so many defensive ones? If shield bash is nerfed, he will fall in the A tier where all the BALANCED hero are? Is this bad?

Anti-Conq thinks Conqueror should have 0 offensive options and thus automatically lose to people who play defensively. Big shocker.

Specialkha
09-17-2018, 08:54 AM
He has a strong defense. Why should he have a strong offense as well? So he should have no weakness?

Ofc, we can also talk about the other S tier duel Hero which should be nerf as well.

guest-Nez6tBu0
09-17-2018, 10:36 AM
amazing, how ppl complain about Conq is strong while Warden is completely OK.

- as Conq after SB got one light attack
- as Warden after SB got two light attack, or Heavy, or GB or he can cancel it even during charge and after animation.....

everything Conq is doing warden do it at least twice as better and much more effective so please when nerfing Conq please nerf Warden first, how about Valks they can do SB better than Conq

Specialkha
09-17-2018, 10:39 AM
amazing, how ppl complain about Conq is strong while Warden is completely OK.

- as Conq after SB got one light attack
- as Warden after SB got two light attack, or Heavy, or GB or he can cancel it even during charge and after animation.....

everything Conq is doing warden do it at least twice as better and much more effective so please when nerfing Conq please nerf Warden first, how about Valks they can do SB better than Conq

Warden should get a nerf as well as being a S tier hero, but why are you comparing only one part of their kit? You need to take their whole kit in the comparison. Based on how you compare stuff, we could ask to nerf the full block of conq since warden can't full block.

guest-Nez6tBu0
09-17-2018, 11:27 AM
Warden should get a nerf as well as being a S tier hero, but why are you comparing only one part of their kit? You need to take their whole kit in the comparison. Based on how you compare stuff, we could ask to nerf the full block of conq since warden can't full block.

Well yes, He got full stance In dominion it can have good use as ppl trowing random **** out usually but it is not that usable in Duels as you might think.You can bate one or two times your opponent then u get GBreaked...it is quite slow not as fast at Warlord, on faster explosive character is pretty useless(warden for example), it is effective on spammers like orochy, aramusha but still u have to do smart. Overall Warden have much better kit. Top counter, lighting fast hits all coming from different angles, ofcourse SB, Very strong heavy hits and max Punishes. Conq get your HP slowly down, warden can melt u down in seconds. Strongest Move Conq got is his Zone with Superior block ability and this is actually very strong. Except that Warden can do everything else faster and stronger plus he got fastest Reflex Guard in the game.

when facing good Conq I actually dont have problem at all (part of is I`m used to play with conq) I loose only when I miss ShliedBashes. When I face good warden I get roasted there are so many things you have to watch for and all of them do so much dmg.

Specialkha
09-17-2018, 11:58 AM
SO what is your point? That warden should be nerf? We can all agree with that, but so does conq.

Thorstein31
09-17-2018, 01:11 PM
What is left of the conqueror if the shoulder bash is nerfed?! This nerf this nerf that has already ruined to much heroes.

guest-Nez6tBu0
09-17-2018, 01:29 PM
SO what is your point? That warden should be nerf? We can all agree with that, but so does conq.

My point is that simple Nerf ShieldBash is not answer. I feel same about Warden, should focus more on sword play instead on Shieldbash mechanic. If so I suggest Warden SB would be like a very fast push-off poke with stun effect move but no hit guaranteed just to maintain distance (he still wield 2H sword) and confuse opponent, similar to what gladiator have but faster. For Conq, well that`s different story there must be some other mechanic just like SB+Light. He got most unique weapon in the game and still there is poor usage of it. I would say they should focus more on charge-up mechanic but in the way you are literally not defenseless during it. Counter hits while charging, like warden have top light counter. unable to block heavy attacks during charge up but still able to counter them, etc....I don`t know there are plenty ways when u start thinking

Specialkha
09-17-2018, 01:38 PM
A nerf of shield bash has more probability to happen than what you propose.

guest-Nez6tBu0
09-17-2018, 01:53 PM
A nerf of shield bash has more probability to happen than what you propose.

I`m aware of it, but in that case as conq how you will fight against other heroes? How to nerf it? Make is just tad slower a he be similar like Cents kick,everyone will be dodging it and punishing you, and suddenly you wont have anything how to compete. Everything you can do is SB + L most of the time, do something with it and you have no kit, do you see?

Vakris_One
09-17-2018, 01:58 PM
A nerf to shield bash is coming and anyone who thinks they can delay it by spreading lies and fear mongering is delusional. But delusion and insults are ArchDuke's trademark tools so don't look to him for anything worth while.

Tried twice to be reasonable with him but he insists on being a brave little keyboard warrior insulting people left and right because the anonimity of the internet grants him the courage to do so. He still doesn't see that the more he posts like a toxic troll the more of a joke he becomes known as by everyone who sees the calibre of what can only jokingly be referred to as his "arguments".

At this point he is doing nothing but giving Conq mains a bad name and doing a massive disservice to everyone who actually wants Conq to be in a good place. The more insult laden rants he posts the less people are going to be sympathetic to the Conq because ArchDuke mains him and he conducts himself like an ignorant tool. Just out of pure spite people are going to start wanting Conq to be nerfed without mercy and ArchDuke will be entirely responsible for this travesty.

I wish the best of luck to those who actually care about Conq and main him. Because with ArchDuke around poisoning your corner you guys are going to get screwed and it won't be fair to you. But at least you'll know who to thank for it.

Alustar.
09-17-2018, 02:01 PM
It's not the speed of the shield ban that's the problem. It's the lamp of significant recovery time that makes it difficult to punish on a miss that has the most of the payers upset. Adding recovery times that the entire rest of the cast had on similar moves will simply bring him in line with the given norms we expect.
The argument from those saying to leave it alone are coming from a place where these players are worried about losing a safe maneuver that keeps them up in most situations. Increasing this recovery time won't make shield bash unusable, it will instead be properly punished in the event that he misses. There is nothing imbalanced about that. Will it reduce the usage of it widely? Yeah, but that's not because it's no longer viable, it's because most players won't want to risk missing and easing a GB. Which is where any other class or two shots that had access to CC like this.

Specialkha
09-17-2018, 02:06 PM
I`m aware of it, but in that case as conq how you will fight against other heroes? How to nerf it? Make is just tad slower a he be similar like Cents kick,everyone will be dodging it and punishing you, and suddenly you wont have anything how to compete. Everything you can do is SB + L most of the time, do something with it and you have no kit, do you see?

Make the move more punishable? Giv eit recovery time, so IF you dodge it, you can punish the conq? There is your fix.

guest-Nez6tBu0
09-17-2018, 03:16 PM
I'm an active rep 40 conqueror on PS4, and I started playing it since the closed beta. First of all, I strongly agree: the shield bash during a dogde is too strong to counter, and too simple to use; also it guarantees the victory on duels.


are you just trolling?? lol...so for example, when I dodge LAW, Wardens bashes I could do GB, instead 13 dmg what I have now? Sure I take that.

Alustar.
09-17-2018, 03:41 PM
are you just trolling?? lol...so for example, when I dodge LAW, Wardens bashes I could do GB, instead 13 dmg what I have now? Sure I take that.

It's not a question of damage values of an individual successful attack, it's a matter of how a particular maneuver aligns within the reestablished rules set out for CC like this.
If these heroes miss their bashes, they eat damage or GB:
Warden
Lawbringer
Centurion
Valkyrie
Gladiator
Shaman
Shugoki
Raider
Nobushi
Shinobi
Highlander
Raider

See? The entire roster that had CC each have to deal with a punish in the event of a whiff. Conqueror is the only two that had no punish on a whiffed hit.
So stop using the "but it's only 13 damage!" Because 5 hits is all it takes to pull a great deal of the roster down to half health or more. Five. Not a difficult task when you have an incredibly safe move that you know will be largely unpunished, even by characters who have dodge attacks.

Alustar.
09-17-2018, 03:44 PM
A nerf to shield bash is coming and anyone who thinks they can delay it by spreading lies and fear mongering is delusional. But delusion and insults are ArchDuke's trademark tools so don't look to him for anything worth while.

Tried twice to be reasonable with him but he insists on being a brave little keyboard warrior insulting people left and right because the anonimity of the internet grants him the courage to do so. He still doesn't see that the more he posts like a toxic troll the more of a joke he becomes known as by everyone who sees the calibre of what can only jokingly be referred to as his "arguments".

At this point he is doing nothing but giving Conq mains a bad name and doing a massive disservice to everyone who actually wants Conq to be in a good place. The more insult laden rants he posts the less people are going to be sympathetic to the Conq because ArchDuke mains him and he conducts himself like an ignorant tool. Just out of pure spite people are going to start wanting Conq to be nerfed without mercy and ArchDuke will be entirely responsible for this travesty.

I wish the best of luck to those who actually care about Conq and main him. Because with ArchDuke around poisoning your corner you guys are going to get screwed and it won't be fair to you. But at least you'll know who to thank for it.

Yup, always great to see your entire post(s) negated under the ideal that, "your K/D is bad and you should feel bad, now go sit in the corner and let the cool kids talk, because I don't think you aren't good enough are enough game to have a valid opinion." And then hear from the mods "well it doesn't look like there is any real breach of the rules of conduct."

Vrbas1
09-17-2018, 04:22 PM
I've gone through so much popcorn.

David_gorda
09-17-2018, 04:27 PM
I've gone through so much popcorn.hehe me to :D so Much incorrect input in this thread like you cant punish a conq bash with dodge attack PR that you cant punish him with a guardbreak. if People actually tested it against conq bot instead Of stating false things over and over again lol ;)

Vrbas1
09-17-2018, 04:34 PM
I'm not opposed to making a missed SB more punishable. I play a lot of Conq and realize the window can be tight, but the window still exists nonetheless.

As I mentioned before, it's unfortunate that he's such a one trick pony right now. He suffers the same disease that ails LB in that he lacks any real opener besides SB+Light. I hate it, because he's got some other really cool tools that are super neat and flashy on paper and in the Training Arena but are significantly less viable in practice.

guest-Nez6tBu0
09-17-2018, 04:54 PM
A nerf to shield bash is coming and anyone who thinks they can delay it by spreading lies and fear mongering is delusional. But delusion and insults are ArchDuke's trademark tools so don't look to him for anything worth while.

Tried twice to be reasonable with him but he insists on being a brave little keyboard warrior insulting people left and right because the anonimity of the internet grants him the courage to do so. He still doesn't see that the more he posts like a toxic troll the more of a joke he becomes known as by everyone who sees the calibre of what can only jokingly be referred to as his "arguments".

At this point he is doing nothing but giving Conq mains a bad name and doing a massive disservice to everyone who actually wants Conq to be in a good place. The more insult laden rants he posts the less people are going to be sympathetic to the Conq because ArchDuke mains him and he conducts himself like an ignorant tool. Just out of pure spite people are going to start wanting Conq to be nerfed without mercy and ArchDuke will be entirely responsible for this travesty.

I wish the best of luck to those who actually care about Conq and main him. Because with ArchDuke around poisoning your corner you guys are going to get screwed and it won't be fair to you. But at least you'll know who to thank for it.

I`m sorry but you are wrong, I`ve read that whole damn thing between you guys. U claimed several things he just asked for proof at first and tell those claims are false.Then u get butt hurt and instead holding original topic you only stick with, he insulted me on this and that, and why are you using these words, etc....anything regarding what he was asking you specifically about the class you refuse to answer, sorry it is like this.

guest-Nez6tBu0
09-17-2018, 04:59 PM
It's not a question of damage values of an individual successful attack, it's a matter of how a particular maneuver aligns within the reestablished rules set out for CC like this.
If these heroes miss their bashes, they eat damage or GB:
Warden
Lawbringer
Centurion
Valkyrie
Gladiator
Shaman
Shugoki
Raider
Nobushi
Shinobi
Highlander
Raider

See? The entire roster that had CC each have to deal with a punish in the event of a whiff. Conqueror is the only two that had no punish on a whiffed hit.
So stop using the "but it's only 13 damage!" Because 5 hits is all it takes to pull a great deal of the roster down to half health or more. Five. Not a difficult task when you have an incredibly safe move that you know will be largely unpunished, even by characters who have dodge attacks.

not sure u troll as well but, if I dodge conq SB I get GB. He can quickly do top light after SB to prevent from GB, but so as Cent, Valk, Nobushi,(and might couple of other I dont know about) do same thing.

Specialkha
09-17-2018, 06:00 PM
First, you need to dodge it. The conq can delay the input long enough to make you dodge, then GB you instead of SB. Then if you dodge, you can maybe GB him or even hit him with a light attack or even you tried your dodge side attack, BUT depending of your latency, the conq can CGB or even parry you. SB lacks a recovery long enough to get punish reliably.

UbiInsulin
09-17-2018, 06:16 PM
Locked as the discussion was becoming a circular flame war.