PDA

View Full Version : So people are still OK w/ Kensei?



Vrbas1
09-09-2018, 06:38 AM
Feint everything into unblockable/hyperarmor I frames? I can't be the only one annoyed by how his rework unfolded. And save your "git good"/he's been trash tier since launch comments please, we all know it's not about that. If you don't truly believe he got EXTRA love on his rework compared to others so far (save maybe Warden), you truly are brain dead.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
09-09-2018, 06:56 AM
I'm not OK with it. Him Warden and berserker are now monsters.

SangLong524
09-09-2018, 07:08 AM
guess i'm brain dead then. So......... "GIT GUD" :cool:

EvoX.
09-09-2018, 08:38 AM
Reworked heroes so far: Warden, Conqueror, Berserker, PK, Orochi, Valk.

Reworked heroes Kensei is stronger than: PK and Valk.

He's the most well balanced rework by far, in no need of buffs or nerfs. Learn how to play against him, apply it, and don't dismiss everyone else as ''brain dead'' when you're the one who's got it wrong.

Vakris_One
09-09-2018, 12:23 PM
What are these unblockable hyper armour i-frames pray tell? He has a grand total of 1 unblockable and only his chain finishers have hyper armour minus the unblockable top heavy. There are no i-frames involved during attacks so if you're getting hit it's because you made a mistake.

You might want to at least learn the moves of the character that's man-handling you before even thinking of calling anyone else "brain dead" like a petty child throwing a tantrum. Put some time into learning how to fight Kensei and ask for advice on the forum unless you just came here to vent impotently.

NHLGoldenKnight
09-09-2018, 07:17 PM
Kensei is a one op sob, but we can't prove it so there is nothing we can do about it.
He reminds me of Porsche 911. Nothing op on paper yet outperforms 2x more expensive exotic sports cars.

DefiledDragon
09-09-2018, 07:24 PM
Kensei is a one op sob, but we can't prove it so there is nothing we can do about it.
He reminds me of Porsche 911. Nothing op on paper yet outperforms 2x more expensive exotic sports cars.

He's certainly "a strong pick". He's well rounded with no real weaknesses to speak of. In the hands of a decent player he's probably the strongest in the roster without being flat out OP. It could be argued that his lack of any real weakness points to him being OP and it does, but there's nothing blatant about it and you could argue that his 600ms lights are a weakness, but they're not really as they back up an excellent feint game and a very flexible kit. He's riding the line.

Knight_Raime
09-09-2018, 07:51 PM
I don't think he got extra love. I mean. He got more done to him than pk/bushi. But so did every other rework. I think it was more of the fact that Kensei's concept as a hero compared to the rest of the reworks was already really good. It just needed to be updated. Like. What did he get really? One extra move with armor and a pommel strike? Everything else that is in his kit already existed in some form. Was just shifted around a bit.

Also comparing him to other reworks Kensei is only better than 3 of them. Pk, bushi, and HL. I would argue valk is better. Mainly because she's a better turtle.

NHLGoldenKnight
09-09-2018, 08:23 PM
His big advantage is his dodge. On paper, it is just a dodge like couple of other heroes have. But unlike them, Kensei has a huge range and the way he moves and area he covers, his dodge is safest dodge in the game. Other long range heroes such as Nobushi or Valk have different type of dodge that doesn't fully exploit range of their weapon. That is balanced way of dealing with dodge. Kensei on the other hand, has the same type of dodge like assassins just with almost 2x range and overall area he covers.

It is something that doesn't look op on paper but only if you watch his moves during gameplay.

Vrbas1
09-09-2018, 08:39 PM
He's the most well balanced rework by far, in no need of buffs or nerfs. Learn how to play against him, apply it, and don't dismiss everyone else as ''brain dead'' when you're the one who's got it wrong.

Don't put words in my mouth. I clearly stated if you don't believe he got EXTRA love on his reworks compared to the others then yes, you are in fact brain dead.

Vrbas1
09-09-2018, 08:42 PM
You might want to at least learn the moves of the character that's man-handling you before even thinking of calling anyone else "brain dead" like a petty child throwing a tantrum. Put some time into learning how to fight Kensei and ask for advice on the forum unless you just came here to vent impotently.

You failed to correctly read what I wrote. Kensei mains and everyone else that disagrees with my opinion that he is OP are not brain dead. The people that think he didn't receive extra love on his reworks compared to the others thus far are. Maybe try exercising your eyeballs and read what I actually wrote before you jump down my throat.


What are these unblockable hyper armour i-frames pray tell? He has a grand total of 1 unblockable and only his chain finishers have hyper armour minus the unblockable top heavy. There are no i-frames involved during attacks so if you're getting hit it's because you made a mistake.

He has 2 unblockables actually, counting his pommel strike. The i-frames I speak of involve the massive window he has to initiate the dodge heavy that literally walks a semi circle around people if he's close enough. Using Lawbringer as an example, it's frustrating to sweep your poleaxe clear through his character model during a side dodge (regardless of direction of dodge and/or Lawbringer attack); if I drag my axe across your face it shouldn't matter that your dodging --> Point being, other characters that have dodge attacks get caught by side attacks where they seemingly pass through Kensei.

Alustar.exe
09-09-2018, 08:44 PM
I only ever get wrecked by kensei players who are legitimately better than I am, which is pretty in line with how this game and the entire roster lines up. So, yeah I am OK with Kensei. Playing against good kensei players has made me more patient and better able to read mix ups and grab parries when I know I am going to get them.

DefiledDragon
09-09-2018, 08:50 PM
His big advantage is his dodge. On paper, it is just a dodge like couple of other heroes have. But unlike them, Kensei has a huge range and the way he moves and area he covers, his dodge is safest dodge in the game. Other long range heroes such as Nobushi or Valk have different type of dodge that doesn't fully exploit range of their weapon. That is balanced way of dealing with dodge. Kensei on the other hand, has the same type of dodge like assassins just with almost 2x range and overall area he covers.

It is something that doesn't look op on paper but only if you watch his moves during gameplay.

Yeah I would say that his dodge heavy is by far the most useful dodge attack in the game. It's telegraphed, but it also has really good range, can be delayed to a ridiculous degree, is probably the hardest heavy attack in the game to parry (for me at least, I can parry orochi's dodge far easier than Kensei's) and it counts as a heavy and thus, if parried, you don't get a heavy punish and it gives him the benefit of an execution and thus health regen if it's the killing blow.

Vrbas1
09-09-2018, 08:57 PM
Yeah I would say that his dodge heavy is by far the most useful dodge attack in the game. It's telegraphed, but it also has really good range, can be delayed to a ridiculous degree, is probably the hardest heavy attack in the game to parry (for me at least, I can parry orochi's dodge far easier than Kensei's) and it counts as a heavy and thus, if parried, you don't get a heavy punish and it gives him the benefit of an execution and thus health regen if it's the killing blow.

I believe the troubling part for most people is the broad window he has to delay it. If they tightened/restricted this window a little bit I think it would make a world of difference.

DefiledDragon
09-09-2018, 09:05 PM
I believe the troubling part for most people is the broad window he has to delay it. If they tightened/restricted this window a little bit I think it would make a world of difference.

It would certainly make a difference to his movement range. If you delay the attack until the last moment you end up literally behind your opponent from where you started.

David_gorda
09-09-2018, 09:45 PM
Kensai is fine and very good rework. He has a good kit and dont need to use only one op cheese move like shieldbash/shoulderbash or 400ms lightspam. I wish more classes were developed Similiar to kensai. It would make the Game much more fun.

Vrbas1
09-09-2018, 10:05 PM
Kensai is fine and very good rework. He has a good kit and dont need to use only one op cheese move like shieldbash/shoulderbash or 400ms lightspam. I wish more classes were developed Similiar to kensai. It would make the Game much more fun.

I don't disagree. If the devs gave as much attention to the other cast members as they did with Kensei I'd like to think we'd have a more level playing field.

HazelrahFirefly
09-10-2018, 02:15 AM
Kensei absolutely got the best rework, in terms of the most effort and balance. He's strong without being OP, and flexible without having too much guesswork when fighting him.

Others are far stronger though, even a few heroes that haven't been reworked (dlc heroes I mean).

NHLGoldenKnight
09-10-2018, 02:30 AM
He is op as ****. Look at them in 4x4, geez, every other Kensei gets 6:1 kd without even trying. It is hard to prove it, but someone can easily figure it out after observing gameplay. Not everything can be seen from moveset.

Vakris_One
09-10-2018, 03:02 AM
You failed to correctly read what I wrote. Kensei mains and everyone else that disagrees with my opinion that he is OP are not brain dead. The people that think he didn't receive extra love on his reworks compared to the others thus far are. Maybe try exercising your eyeballs and read what I actually wrote before you jump down my throat.
Pot calling kettle black. I respond with the same tone that I see displayed by the poster. If you don't want an extra curt response then don't start off all crispy in the first place what with calling people brain dead simply for daring to have a different opinion than you.

What "extra love" did he recieve compared to Warden, Conq and Beserker? Two of whom (Warden and Conq) completely outperform Kensei based solely on having one super strong move that makes scoring wins extremely easy by comparison to how much other characters including Kensei have to work for theirs. Zerker got given hyper armoured 400ms lights, nuff said. I dare say even Highlander got given more overt power than Kensei simply because of his insane kick/grab being as close to a guessing game as you can get.

The only reworks the Kensei definitely outperforms are frankly the dev's worst attempts at a hero update. Nobushi (mostly nerfed), PK (very nerfed plus a bug fix) and Orochi (Light spam: The Character. Arguably the devs most mediocre rework to date). Valk is as capable as Kensei and equally competitive now but it cost her her personality imo.

Kensei's rework is an example of a rework done right. Possibly the only example of one done right. Everything Kensei does to score damage is dependant on getting correct reads - he has no abusable move that scores him ultra safe damage and can be used to turn the game into easy mode. He always risks being punished on a correct read by his opponent in order to get his attacks in. If his opponent reads him correctly then his opponents gets to punish him. If instead Kensei reads his opponent correctly then he gets to punish him. It's as fair a fight as this game's ever had frankly.

I mean let's evaluate the other reworks so far shall we?

● Boosted to S-tier on the back of just a single overtuned move:
- Warden
- Conqueror

^ Both characters never need to reach outside of just using one single move to score wins even at the highest levels of play and they both easily outperform everyone in the roster because of this. The super safe recovery of shield bash and the ultimate bait and punish tool: shoulder bash; than can be cancelled at any point even after taking a single half-step forward. Kensei on the other hand needs to utilise every single piece of his kit in order to perform well at high level play. He is much more balanced than those two and is a representation of how this game's fight system should be utilised - not with cheesily overpowered one-trick gimmicks.

● Boosted close to S-tier almost entirely on the back of a single overtuned move but not quite:
- Highlander

^ Very close to being just a one-trick single strong move type of character if not for the fact that he requires more skill and effort to play well at high level than Conq and Warden. Less overall versatility than Kensei but definitely received a huge boost in power with his rework, pretty much all of which was justified as he genuinley needed it however.

● A robust hyper armoured feint machine:
- Beserker

^ Received the ability to access 400ms hyper armoured lights from a feint and became one of the strongest and most reliable heroes in any situation for those that can play him/her well. That's plenty of love there.

● A strong and viable fighter if somewhat lacking in personality:
- Valkyrie

^ Can't quite say she got a huge amount of love but she got given just enough to make her not useless.

● And the unloved ones:
- PK
- Orochi
- Nobushi

^ Either got given mostly nerfs or in Orochi's case a perfectly mediocre approach to a rework.

If you ask me more reworks should be of the Kensei's calibre as his is actually the most thought out and well balanced among all of them so far.



He has 2 unblockables actually, counting his pommel strike.
And do you find this a super difficult move to counter? There are ways to counter it, chief among them being stuffing the Kensei with a light attack on reaction to his top heavy startup.



The i-frames I speak of involve the massive window he has to initiate the dodge heavy that literally walks a semi circle around people if he's close enough. Using Lawbringer as an example, it's frustrating to sweep your poleaxe clear through his character model during a side dodge (regardless of direction of dodge and/or Lawbringer attack); if I drag my axe across your face it shouldn't matter that your dodging --> Point being, other characters that have dodge attacks get caught by side attacks where they seemingly pass through Kensei.
The old i-frames arguement, I see. I've already disproved this arguement with facts via extensive in-game testing. Please see the clips below:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8DcfhGJxIeA

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H_RjQp6rUk0

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_GTNVz5UpU

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FDtS3it6olg

As you can see Kensei's dodge attack obeys the mechanics of the game in exactly the same way as any other dodge attack. He gets no extra i-frames during the startup nor throughout the entirety of his attack animation. No attacks can just pass through him when he is in the attack animation unless there is unintended lag going on. He can absolutely be disrupted out of his dodge strike attack if he is caught at the right time, just like all other dodge attacks in the game.

Siegfried-Z
09-10-2018, 09:23 AM
Feint everything into unblockable/hyperarmor I frames? I can't be the only one annoyed by how his rework unfolded. And save your "git good"/he's been trash tier since launch comments please, we all know it's not about that. If you don't truly believe he got EXTRA love on his rework compared to others so far (save maybe Warden), you truly are brain dead.


I'm not OK with it. Him Warden and berserker are now monsters.


guess i'm brain dead then. So......... "GIT GUD" :cool:

Common guys again ?? How many topics each of you are going to made about this ? Any decent player on this forum already explain an abslolut true point to you : having problem with Kensei means having problem with basic mechanic of the game... End.


What are these unblockable hyper armour i-frames pray tell? He has a grand total of 1 unblockable and only his chain finishers have hyper armour minus the unblockable top heavy. There are no i-frames involved during attacks so if you're getting hit it's because you made a mistake.

You might want to at least learn the moves of the character that's man-handling you before even thinking of calling anyone else "brain dead" like a petty child throwing a tantrum. Put some time into learning how to fight Kensei and ask for advice on the forum unless you just came here to vent impotently.

Congrats for your energy to show them each time they're wrong.. i've got tired after 4,5 times doing it... Considering this is always the same group of ppl which are complaining.. that's pretty funny.

NHLGoldenKnight
09-10-2018, 10:21 AM
And how many times will same people jump in to defend him?

I speak in my name only, but how do you think someone can struggle with basic game mechanics as you like to say, when at the same time I have no problem beating other Kensei while playing Kensei but I can barely touch him with any other hero? It doesn't make sense.

Also, for Valkris guy and few others, I am going to start little project of mine. I am going to take scoreboard screen shots of every Dominion game where there is at least one Kensei involved and I will post those screen shots under new topic. I am going to be honest and post every game, not just if Kensei is very good. I can do that for, 1 or 2 weeks maybe, which in my case should be at least 50 matches per week maybe even 70. Kensei is very popular now (wonder why) so I expect at least half of those will be with Kensei. Let's see how Kensei performs and let's try to prove that majority of players do struggle with him although they are pretty good vs other heroes. Of course, this applies to Dominion only.

Siegfried-Z
09-10-2018, 10:53 AM
And how many times will same people jump in to defend him?

I speak in my name only, but how do you think someone can struggle with basic game mechanics as you like to say, when at the same time I have no problem beating other Kensei while playing Kensei but I can barely touch him with any other hero? It doesn't make sense.

Also, for Valkris guy and few others, I am going to start little project of mine. I am going to take scoreboard screen shots of every Dominion game where there is at least one Kensei involved and I will post those screen shots under new topic. I am going to be honest and post every game, not just if Kensei is very good. I can do that for, 1 or 2 weeks maybe, which in my case should be at least 50 matches per week maybe even 70. Kensei is very popular now (wonder why) so I expect at least half of those will be with Kensei. Let's see how Kensei performs and let's try to prove that majority of players do struggle with him although they are pretty good vs other heroes. Of course, this applies to Dominion only.

We show up to defend it with argue, even at the beggening giving tips and advices, while on my side i've stop to do it.

While complainers most of the times just say "wow he is so Op, too strong" and often with wrong statements.

TBH not a lot of Kensei are good, why ? Bceause most of them are just doing Zone and Dash like stupids because it's enough against some ppl.

I am myself rep 24 Kensei and without beeing arrogant i can crush others kensei beetween rep 30 and 60 most of the times. But not only with Kensei, with any Char i play as Shaman, or Valk... Kensei is specially very weak against Valk.

I just struggle against him with Glad because of his guard.. but that's a Glad problem.

Kensei is also very weak against Warden, Conq or Cent.

Really i don't understand how people can have problem with Kensei and then not with Warden which is BY FAR stronger now than Kensei.

And you can do your project at Hunting Kensei Score if you like to, it will just show he is strong but not OP.

About very popular pick, well in 4v4 some char char are seen far more as Raider or Warden... LB is also a top dog in 4v4.

In 1v1, he is nothing special... I would pick up Valk without a doubt for Duel.

Vakris_One
09-10-2018, 02:44 PM
And how many times will same people jump in to defend him?
Notice how those "same people" always give advice and explain in as much detail as they care to but you never acknowledge the fact that these people are giving advice and explaining. You only focus on your opinion as if it were the God's truth and never even stop to consider that you might be wrong and that your opinion is in fact in the minority.

I mean you pop up in every Kensei thread to share your opinion that he is OP. How can you cast criticism on others for coming in to share their opinions when you do the exact same thing? At least some of us come with the intent to help the person overcome their difficulties with the character. From what I've seen you mostly just come to jump on the hate train every time because it agrees with your subjective opinion.



I speak in my name only, but how do you think someone can struggle with basic game mechanics as you like to say, when at the same time I have no problem beating other Kensei while playing Kensei but I can barely touch him with any other hero? It doesn't make sense.
That's a subjective matter. I can and have beaten good Kensei players while using Warden, Highlander, Aramusha, Shugoki, PK, Orochi and Kensei. So what does this mean? I can't speak for you but for me it means I understand how to read a Kensei but it also means I know how to play those characters well enough to use their kit to my advantage vs a Kensei. If I picked a character I don't know how to play well with I would lose. I would also lose if the enemy Kensei player is simply better than me, no matter what character I played.

Kensei is an easy character to play and stomp noobs with but he is hard to master at higher level. Perhaps you just gell well with Kensei's playstyle or the people you face simply aren't that good against Kensei. Everybody has a particular character that they struggle against even ones who main that character themselves.



Also, for Valkris guy and few others, I am going to start little project of mine. I am going to take scoreboard screen shots of every Dominion game where there is at least one Kensei involved and I will post those screen shots under new topic. I am going to be honest and post every game, not just if Kensei is very good. I can do that for, 1 or 2 weeks maybe, which in my case should be at least 50 matches per week maybe even 70. Kensei is very popular now (wonder why) so I expect at least half of those will be with Kensei. Let's see how Kensei performs and let's try to prove that majority of players do struggle with him although they are pretty good vs other heroes. Of course, this applies to Dominion only.
Go ahead and do what you like but:

- How are you going to prove that the majority of players across the whole playerbase struggle against him? End of match screenshots from 1 single player's perspective isn't going to tell you anything statistically worthwhile for a playerbase that numbers in the thousands.

- How are you going to prove that the majority of players that do struggle against him are pretty good vs other heroes and who those other heroes are?
- Is there a correlation between the heroes people struggle against and Kensei?
- Furthermore how will you prove that Kensei isn't just a bad matchup for them?
- How will you get all this important data from just a collection of end of match screenshots?

- Ultimately how are you going to prove that Kensei being a strong pick in 4v4 (the mode he was purposefully designed to be good in by the devs) automatically means that he is OP? Could it not just as easily mean that he is one of the best heroes for anti-ganks?

- Will you compile data on who the top 3 performers are according to your statistics gathered? Is there a correlation between the top 3 heroes in your study of 4v4 Dominion? Do they have anything in common?

Statistics without any context are just a bunch of numbers on a spreadsheet. You need to find the actual reason why certain heroes are stronger picks in 4v4s. A bunch of K/D numbers in a mode where you can safely scores kills via ganking while making sure you don't die a lot by keeping away from the enemy team isn't going to tell you anything relevant about how balanced a hero is. For example, I can pick a fast runner like PK who also has the hidden from map feat and make sure I die as little as possible while only running around and stealing kills from my teammates in ganks. Lo and behold I'll have the lowest deaths per kills score in the match.

It's your time and you can do with it as you wish. I would recommend you wait for the Season 6 win chart matrix as the devs would have done a much better and much more thorough job of gathering statistics than any player could hope to do. But it's your choice.

Vrbas1
09-10-2018, 03:31 PM
He can absolutely be disrupted out of his dodge strike attack if he is caught at the right time, just like all other dodge attacks in the game.

"Caught at the right time" - The window in which he can be disrupted is much tighter than the rest of the cast with dodge attacks, if not entirely awkward due to him being given a lengthy amount of time to delay it; this is my point. You work double time to disrupt Kensei's dodge attack than you would for the other heroes. Add in it being a heavy attack, unlike most, where parry punishes are unsatisfying, heal on execution, and a deceptively wide AoE and you'll begin to quickly see the frustrations many share with how this plays out in real time.

I suspect the window in which to interrupt him is tight because of both the amount of ground he covers along with the awkward looking animation/arc of his sidestep attack. Or it's just a poorly programmed attack whose visual feedback does not reflect what's physically happening on the back end.

Roseguard_Cpt
09-10-2018, 04:14 PM
If a Kensei is choosing to spam the dodging side heavy on you, feint a heavy, parry the attack, hit them with a light. Repeat until they stop it. If they dodge and don't attack, GB and heavy. It takes a bit of practice but it's pretty basic mix ups, works against assassins that dodge spam too.

Siegfried-Z
09-10-2018, 04:23 PM
"Caught at the right time" - The window in which he can be disrupted is much tighter than the rest of the cast with dodge attacks, if not entirely awkward due to him being given a lengthy amount of time to delay it; this is my point. You work double time to disrupt Kensei's dodge attack than you would for the other heroes. Add in it being a heavy attack, unlike most, where parry punishes are unsatisfying, heal on execution, and a deceptively wide AoE and you'll begin to quickly see the frustrations many share with how this plays out in real time.

I suspect the window in which to interrupt him is tight because of both the amount of ground he covers along with the awkward looking animation/arc of his sidestep attack. Or it's just a poorly programmed attack whose visual feedback does not reflect what's physically happening on the back end.

Well firstly PK and Shaman has heavy side dash too.

Some char with light dash attacks has others options like Punch for Glad, GB for Raider or Kick for Shinobi.

Some has unparryable dash because their are bash as warden or Conq but many others has.

Next MF Char looks half having light dash and half heavy ones.

So, that beeing said, which char remains ? Well Roch and Zerk but their dash attacks have undodgable property.

At the end, only Valk Dash looks unbalance compare to others (didnt even consider Nobu).

Another thing which i find funny is on every Kensei thread, after some put factual argues why Kensei is not Op, at the end the discussion only came back about his Dash attack.

And then we came back at where is the problem having troubles with the slowest and unfeintable dash attacks of the game ? :rolleyes:

Vrbas1
09-10-2018, 04:32 PM
Another thing which i find funny is on every Kensei thread, after some put factual argues why Kensei is not Op, at the end the discussion only came back about his Dash attack.

And then we came back at where is the problem having troubles with the slowest and unfeintable dash attacks of the game ? :rolleyes:

Well, as I have mentioned multiple times along with many others before me, the Kensei is given an absurd amount of latitude on when to execute his attack once he dodges. In essence, he gets a double dodge w/ the added benefit of a heavy attack. Mix all that mess up with his fast lights, above average feint/soft feint game (not as good as Zerk, I'm aware), and hyper armor, you have yourself a frustrating opponent in a 1v1 and infuriating one in group fights.

Arekonator
09-10-2018, 04:58 PM
Well, as I have mentioned multiple times along with many others before me, the Kensei is given an absurd amount of latitude on when to execute his attack once he dodges. In essence, he gets a double dodge w/ the added benefit of a heavy attack. Mix all that mess up with his fast lights, above average feint/soft feint game (not as good as Zerk, I'm aware), and hyper armor, you have yourself a frustrating opponent in a 1v1 and infuriating one in group fights.

The extra i-fra,e window was debunked but you decided to ignore it. Its definitelly not double-dodge, so please stop spewing nonsense.
Have you tried to git gud instead?

Siegfried-Z
09-10-2018, 04:59 PM
Well, as I have mentioned multiple times along with many others before me, the Kensei is given an absurd amount of latitude on when to execute his attack once he dodges. In essence, he gets a double dodge w/ the added benefit of a heavy attack. Mix all that mess up with his fast lights, above average feint/soft feint game (not as good as Zerk, I'm aware), and hyper armor, you have yourself a frustrating opponent in a 1v1 and infuriating one in group fights.

Still, i almost never miss my parry on his side dash attack.. even delayed it is very telegraphed, just have to be patient.

About his light speed, i don't see any problem.. Side light from neutral are 600ms...only top one is 500ms which is just as warden before rework.
During mix up, well most of time i didn't get hit by his side light softfeint, it is fast but not too much to react to, and i am playing without controller and on PS4... So i gess it is a free parry on PC.

His only strong light is the side one with HA on the UB mix-up, which is still a 500ms hit. And i don't believe 500ms mooves are a problem at the current state of the game.

BUT, yes this is a good mix-up, which we are just saying.

Don't get me (and us i believe) wrong, of course Kensei is an efficient char, specially in 4v4, but he isn't too strong, he is just at a very good position. Efficient without beeing OP because he has strong tools but has to work to use it, you can't put Kensei in the category where many others are which are annoying as Spamy Char (Roch, PK etc) or Char which can just abuse a single moove without difficulties to score DMG (Warlord, Conq).

He is interesting to play with and to play against because it is all about mix-up game.

He is the definition of what every Char should be.

Vakris_One
09-10-2018, 05:10 PM
Well, as I have mentioned multiple times along with many others before me, the Kensei is given an absurd amount of latitude on when to execute his attack once he dodges. In essence, he gets a double dodge w/ the added benefit of a heavy attack. Mix all that mess up with his fast lights, above average feint/soft feint game (not as good as Zerk, I'm aware), and hyper armor, you have yourself a frustrating opponent in a 1v1 and infuriating one in group fights.
Okay so, firstly: fast lights? Only his top light is 500ms - the basic minimum speed for something to be considered a "light attack" in my opinion. The rest of his lights are 600ms, i.e. the slowest speed that lights get to be in this game and frankly damn near useless when you consider they give out pretty much a free heavy parry punish to the opponent every time. Easily parryable on reaction at average skill level on PC and even on consoles. The only reason a Kensei can actually land hits with his 600ms lights is because he can soft feint to them at any point in his chains.

Secondly, double dodge? No. Did you look at the clips I linked? As soon as he starts his attack animation he is vulnerable to being hit. That is not a "double dodge" or even close to it. A double dodge is what the Shinobi has. Kensei doesn't even come close to generating double dodge i-frames, he is vulnerable to a hit as soon as he inputs the attack. Characters such as Shaman and PK have heavy dodge attacks and both are faster and less telegraphed than Kensei's one. Characters such as Orochi, Zerker and Shaman can delay their dodge attack startup too so singling Kensei out as the only one who has a heavy and/or can delay his is incorrect.

Does he have more time to delay his? I've never tested it so I don't know. I do know that his delay timing got reduced in an undocumented change in a patch during Season 6. If someone like Freeze can test this and prove that Kensei gets more time to delay his then I would be interested in their findings. Keep in mind however that some of the new Chinese heroes like Tiandi and Jiang Jung can actually cancel (Tiandi & JJ), hard feint (Tiandi) and soft feint (JJ) their dodge attacks. If you have trouble with Kensei's dodge attack then you're in for a wild ride once Marching Fire drops.

Thirdly, being a frustrating opponent to fight does not by default mean he is OP or broken. It generally means he is a bad matchup for you. You can't expect to fight everyone using the same tactics and score wins easily over the entire roster without any stiff opposition. You need to adapt different tactics for different heroes based on what they can do.

Vrbas1
09-10-2018, 05:14 PM
The extra i-fra,e window was debunked but you decided to ignore it. Its definitelly not double-dodge, so please stop spewing nonsense.
Have you tried to git gud instead?

I appreciate that. But what looks good on paper and produced videos does not accurately reflect what happens in countless matches as it plays out in real time for many players in an uncontrolled environment. I understand you (and others) believe the invincibility frames/double dodge is "debunked", yet many players continue to experience exact symptoms of it. Whether or not it's i-frames in the exact definition of the word, it nonetheless is experienced by players daily and warrants due frustration... otherwise people wouldn't still be talking about it.

Vakris_One
09-10-2018, 05:24 PM
I appreciate that. But what looks good on paper and produced videos does not accurately reflect what happens in countless matches as it plays out in real time for many players in an uncontrolled environment. I understand you (and others) believe the invincibility frames/double dodge is "debunked", yet many players continue to experience exact symptoms of it. Whether or not it's i-frames in the exact definition of the word, it nonetheless is experienced by players daily and warrants due frustration... otherwise people wouldn't still be talking about it.
Those clips are from uncontrolled matches in solo cue in the live game. I didn't get a group of friends, I didn't do a custom match, I did the testing in the live game exactly as these situations would occur naturally and I came up with all of the evidence I needed to debunk the i-frame theory. Don't know what more you could want to be honest.

And again I reiterate, a non exploited and legitimate mechanic that is frustrating for some to deal with may not be frustrating for others who have found ways to overcome it. If a legit, non-exploit mechanic is frustrating to deal with it does not by default make it OP. This is a PvP game after all, there are supposed to be challenges that you have to work hard to overcome. What those challenges are is unique to every individual. All we can do is offer advice and knowledge to one another and work to cut out the factual innacuracies so that only consistent logic remains.

Arekonator
09-10-2018, 05:24 PM
I appreciate that. But what looks good on paper and produced videos does not accurately reflect what happens in countless matches as it plays out in real time for many players in an uncontrolled environment. I understand you (and others) believe the invincibility frames/double dodge is "debunked", yet many players continue to experience exact symptoms of it. Whether or not it's i-frames in the exact definition of the word, it nonetheless is experienced by players daily and warrants due frustration... otherwise people wouldn't still be talking about it.
You cant experience something that doesnt exists. It only shows they dont have understanding of what is actually happening on the screen and therefore their opinion is irrelevant. And you just dont balance game around people who dont have a clue. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but thats just how it is.

Vrbas1
09-10-2018, 05:30 PM
Okay so, firstly: fast lights? Only his top light is 500ms - the basic minimum speed for something to be considered a "light attack" in my opinion. The rest of his lights are 600ms, i.e. the slowest speed that lights get to be in this game and frankly damn near useless when you consider they give out pretty much a free heavy parry punish to the opponent every time. Easily parryable on reaction at average skill level on PC and even on consoles. The only reason a Kensei can actually land hits with his 600ms lights is because he can soft feint to them at any point in his chains.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the lights within his chains come out quicker than side openers? Perhaps it just feels this way due being hit/stunned.


Secondly, double dodge? No. Did you look at the clips I linked? As soon as he starts his attack animation he is vulnerable to being hit. That is not a "double dodge" or even close to it. A double dodge is what the Shinobi has. Kensei doesn't even come close to generating double dodge i-frames, he is vulnerable to a hit as soon as he inputs the attack. Characters such as Shaman and PK have heavy dodge attacks and both are faster and less telegraphed than Kensei's one. Characters such as Orochi, Zerker and Shaman can delay their dodge attack startup too so singling Kensei out as the only one who has a heavy and/or can delay his is incorrect.

I watched the video and saw. Can you tell me if these clips were from a pickup game or a testing environment? Speaking on the double dodge, and this is said under the assumption that he can in fact unduly delay the initiation of his dodge attack, if a Kensei can dodge-delay-dodge attack and end up physically behind you... then if that's not a double dodge it's one hell of a basic dodge. This supports the point I [and others have] made about the Kensei covering a large amount of real estate with his dodge/dodge attack compared to other heroes.


Does he have more time to delay his? I've never tested it so I don't know. I do know that his delay timing got reduced in an undocumented change in a patch during Season 6. If someone like Freeze can test this and prove that Kensei gets more time to delay his then I would be interested in their findings. Keep in mind however that some of the new Chinese heroes like Tiandi and Jiang Jung can actually cancel (Tiandi & JJ), hard feint (Tiandi) and soft feint (JJ) their dodge attacks. If you have trouble with Kensei's dodge attack then you're in for a wild ride once Marching Fire drops.

I too would like to see hard data on this. That aside, the experience is real for me and I believe many others agree. And yes, Marching Fire is going to be a nightmare with some of the moves I've seen with these new characters.


Thirdly, being a frustrating opponent to fight does not by default mean he is OP or broken. It generally means he is a bad matchup for you. You can't expect to fight everyone using the same tactics and score wins easily over the entire roster without any stiff opposition. You need to adapt different tactics for different heroes based on what they can do.

I did a poor job on my original post. I'll try to put it a different way: The Kensei, in its current state and other heroes in their current position, can be considered OP given the sweeping treatment he got in his rework. As mentioned in a previous post of mine in this thread, if other characters were given as much attention on their rework as Kensei did, I'd like to think we'd have a much more level playing field and other heroes would be better equipped to handle Kensei's robust kit.

Siegfried-Z
09-10-2018, 05:35 PM
I appreciate that. But what looks good on paper and produced videos does not accurately reflect what happens in countless matches as it plays out in real time for many players in an uncontrolled environment. I understand you (and others) believe the invincibility frames/double dodge is "debunked", yet many players continue to experience exact symptoms of it. Whether or not it's i-frames in the exact definition of the word, it nonetheless is experienced by players daily and warrants due frustration... otherwise people wouldn't still be talking about it.

Vakris and Arekonator just answer to it i would not put another one.

Just want to say at least you try to be involve in the discussion which is good. You try to think without just screaming at OP everywhere.
So we are just explaining to you why your statement is wrong and subjective.

Just look at the others guys which were so happy to show up and beeing trash about Kensei at the begenning of your thread... where are they now ? Is any of them showing up with argue now that the discussion became a bit smarter ? Nop

And any Kensei topics always end like this.. because that's a fact nothing is wrong with him, he is just good, not OP.

Try to play him yourself, even for a rep, gonna help you.

Arekonator
09-10-2018, 05:46 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the lights within his chains come out quicker than side openers? Perhaps it just feels this way due being hit/stunned.
Not quite. All "second in chain" light come out at 600ms, as long as they are part of standard chain. All light finishers come out at 500ms. And all lights that you soft-feint into also come out at 500ms.

Charmzzz
09-10-2018, 06:29 PM
To be fair, Kensei is not Top 3 in Dominion because he has "nothing". He has, probably, the highest range in the game due to his attack range plus his very long tracking capability. Duel? He is doable. But in Dom? He is the new Nobushi...

SangLong524
09-10-2018, 06:52 PM
Vakris and Arekonator just answer to it i would not put another one.

Just want to say at least you try to be involve in the discussion which is good. You try to think without just screaming at OP everywhere.
So we are just explaining to you why your statement is wrong and subjective.

Just look at the others guys which were so happy to show up and beeing trash about Kensei at the begenning of your thread... where are they now ? Is any of them showing up with argue now that the discussion became a bit smarter ? Nop

And any Kensei topics always end like this.. because that's a fact nothing is wrong with him, he is just good, not OP.

Try to play him yourself, even for a rep, gonna help you.
Well I just confirmed op statement as a brain dead, which is whoever disagree with him that kensei is not op. Basically I told him exactly what everyone else are trying to say here. Although they are so much nicer and patient than me at the moment I replied.
And yes, the discussion definitely get smarter, but it's the same discussion. People just not discussing anything new here. Just trying to tell op that he's just lack experience and practice and calm his tits.
Anyway, it's good that some guys still have goodness in their heart to repeat the same **** over and over to dozen of dozen SAME threads. I don't have that much in me. If you go explain everything to everyone over and over again, you have no time left to do anything else. At 27, time is not as plentiful as it was, although the duration is the same.

Knight_Raime
09-10-2018, 07:15 PM
Okay so, firstly: fast lights? Only his top light is 500ms - the basic minimum speed for something to be considered a "light attack" in my opinion. The rest of his lights are 600ms, i.e. the slowest speed that lights get to be in this game and frankly damn near useless when you consider they give out pretty much a free heavy parry punish to the opponent every time. Easily parryable on reaction at average skill level on PC and even on consoles. The only reason a Kensei can actually land hits with his 600ms lights is because he can soft feint to them at any point in his chains.

Secondly, double dodge? No. Did you look at the clips I linked? As soon as he starts his attack animation he is vulnerable to being hit. That is not a "double dodge" or even close to it. A double dodge is what the Shinobi has. Kensei doesn't even come close to generating double dodge i-frames, he is vulnerable to a hit as soon as he inputs the attack. Characters such as Shaman and PK have heavy dodge attacks and both are faster and less telegraphed than Kensei's one. Characters such as Orochi, Zerker and Shaman can delay their dodge attack startup too so singling Kensei out as the only one who has a heavy and/or can delay his is incorrect.

Does he have more time to delay his? I've never tested it so I don't know. I do know that his delay timing got reduced in an undocumented change in a patch during Season 6. If someone like Freeze can test this and prove that Kensei gets more time to delay his then I would be interested in their findings. Keep in mind however that some of the new Chinese heroes like Tiandi and Jiang Jung can actually cancel (Tiandi & JJ), hard feint (Tiandi) and soft feint (JJ) their dodge attacks. If you have trouble with Kensei's dodge attack then you're in for a wild ride once Marching Fire drops.

Thirdly, being a frustrating opponent to fight does not by default mean he is OP or broken. It generally means he is a bad matchup for you. You can't expect to fight everyone using the same tactics and score wins easily over the entire roster without any stiff opposition. You need to adapt different tactics for different heroes based on what they can do.

Kensei's dodge attack has to be done 300ms into his dodge attack or later. This is akin to pk, glads, valks, Nuxia's timing for delaying. Kensei's "feels" longer because his animation is longer and is weird looking. as far as I know he doesn't have a bigger delay window.

Vrbas1
09-10-2018, 07:59 PM
Well I just confirmed op statement as a brain dead, which is whoever disagree with him that kensei is not op. Basically I told him exactly what everyone else are trying to say here. Although they are so much nicer and patient than me at the moment I replied.
And yes, the discussion definitely get smarter, but it's the same discussion. People just not discussing anything new here. Just trying to tell op that he's just lack experience and practice and calm his tits.
Anyway, it's good that some guys still have goodness in their heart to repeat the same **** over and over to dozen of dozen SAME threads. I don't have that much in me. If you go explain everything to everyone over and over again, you have no time left to do anything else. At 27, time is not as plentiful as it was, although the duration is the same.

Guess I'm not surprised yet another person finds it easier just to assume rather than read what I actually wrote. I've repeated myself twice already to two separate people, but I guess I'll go ahead and, to put it in your words, "repeat the same **** over" and "explain everything to everyone over and over again" because I'm one of the guys that "still has goodness in his heart to repeat" it again.

So here we go, third time is a charm right?

***
I am not calling everyone who does not think Kensei is OP brain dead. I am saying if you think he did not receive extra love in his rework as compared to other cast members then yes, I believe you've got some brain damage... if not brain dead altogether.
***

NHLGoldenKnight
09-10-2018, 08:00 PM
Notice how those "same people" always give advice and explain in as much detail as they care to but you never acknowledge the fact that these people are giving advice and explaining. You only focus on your opinion as if it were the God's truth and never even stop to consider that you might be wrong and that your opinion is in fact in the minority.

I mean you pop up in every Kensei thread to share your opinion that he is OP. How can you cast criticism on others for coming in to share their opinions when you do the exact same thing? At least some of us come with the intent to help the person overcome their difficulties with the character. From what I've seen you mostly just come to jump on the hate train every time because it agrees with your subjective opinion.


That's a subjective matter. I can and have beaten good Kensei players while using Warden, Highlander, Aramusha, Shugoki, PK, Orochi and Kensei. So what does this mean? I can't speak for you but for me it means I understand how to read a Kensei but it also means I know how to play those characters well enough to use their kit to my advantage vs a Kensei. If I picked a character I don't know how to play well with I would lose. I would also lose if the enemy Kensei player is simply better than me, no matter what character I played.

Kensei is an easy character to play and stomp noobs with but he is hard to master at higher level. Perhaps you just gell well with Kensei's playstyle or the people you face simply aren't that good against Kensei. Everybody has a particular character that they struggle against even ones who main that character themselves.


Go ahead and do what you like but:

- How are you going to prove that the majority of players across the whole playerbase struggle against him? End of match screenshots from 1 single player's perspective isn't going to tell you anything statistically worthwhile for a playerbase that numbers in the thousands.

- How are you going to prove that the majority of players that do struggle against him are pretty good vs other heroes and who those other heroes are?
- Is there a correlation between the heroes people struggle against and Kensei?
- Furthermore how will you prove that Kensei isn't just a bad matchup for them?
- How will you get all this important data from just a collection of end of match screenshots?

- Ultimately how are you going to prove that Kensei being a strong pick in 4v4 (the mode he was purposefully designed to be good in by the devs) automatically means that he is OP? Could it not just as easily mean that he is one of the best heroes for anti-ganks?

- Will you compile data on who the top 3 performers are according to your statistics gathered? Is there a correlation between the top 3 heroes in your study of 4v4 Dominion? Do they have anything in common?

Statistics without any context are just a bunch of numbers on a spreadsheet. You need to find the actual reason why certain heroes are stronger picks in 4v4s. A bunch of K/D numbers in a mode where you can safely scores kills via ganking while making sure you don't die a lot by keeping away from the enemy team isn't going to tell you anything relevant about how balanced a hero is. For example, I can pick a fast runner like PK who also has the hidden from map feat and make sure I die as little as possible while only running around and stealing kills from my teammates in ganks. Lo and behold I'll have the lowest deaths per kills score in the match.

It's your time and you can do with it as you wish. I would recommend you wait for the Season 6 win chart matrix as the devs would have done a much better and much more thorough job of gathering statistics than any player could hope to do. But it's your choice.

However you think it's fair. I can take screenshots of my every game, even if Kensei is not involved, or I can take those with Kensei only. What I want to show is how much better Kensei performs than almost anyone else in the game. Maybe I am wrong, but just by observing, Kensei is almost always deadliest player in Dominion based on K/D. Will that be the case if I start taking all the data? Maybe yes, maybe not but I am willing to try to document it and if you have special request of how you want it to be done, I can do that. For additional info, I play in NA, usually matchmaking is Continent and I pretty much know most of the players. Maybe we even see some more "famous" faces.

NHLGoldenKnight
09-10-2018, 08:37 PM
Vakris and Arekonator just answer to it i would not put another one.

Just want to say at least you try to be involve in the discussion which is good. You try to think without just screaming at OP everywhere.
So we are just explaining to you why your statement is wrong and subjective.

Just look at the others guys which were so happy to show up and beeing trash about Kensei at the begenning of your thread... where are they now ? Is any of them showing up with argue now that the discussion became a bit smarter ? Nop

And any Kensei topics always end like this.. because that's a fact nothing is wrong with him, he is just good, not OP.

Try to play him yourself, even for a rep, gonna help you.

Smarter discussion, really?

You can quote Kenseis numbers and moves but you are ignoring things that you can see only from gameplay.

His dodge is the safest dodge in this game. If not, who has better one?
His range on dodge attack his best in the game. If not, who has a better one?
Area he covers with his dodge is largest in the game, combination of range of his weapon and distance he covers while dodging.

In short, he has dodge attack that is better than any of assassin's, range on his dodge beats Valk and Nobu, his feint is better than any of the Vanguards and rivals that of assassin's, yet he has a health pool of a Vanguard.

All of his BS comes from dodge attack that was animated completely wrong for the type of weapon he is using and his class. Look at the Valk and Nobu who wield long range weapons. Their dodge is animated in a way that doesn't make them op just because range of their weapons. Even when they dodge, they just take one small side step, still staying squared to opponent and they don't use full potential of their weapons in unrealistic way, which I like.

Difference with Kensei from the very beginning was his dodge, which was done wrong. First of all, he shouldn't have dodge at all but if he has to it should work in a way similar to Nobu or Valk, one side step followed by attack at narrow angle that is mostly coming from the wirsts not swing of your arms.

Having a Kensei with current dodge is same as giving dodge option do Highlander, same animation as Kensei has. See anything wrong with that picture? There would be a carnage out there.

Game is not completely realistic but it's not complete fantasy as well. They did solid job with most of the heroes but Kensei is the one that is BS work, because of his feint and dodge which in no way would work with his weapon. Assassin are good at that because they mostly have very limited range, their weapons are short, Gladiator somewhat exception. But when you add same properties to someone who has at least 30% more range on his attack compared to your typical assasin, while still having health of a Vanguard, that is not balanced.

Kensei should have his dodge replaced by different animation as I already gave example of. His dodge heavy should be animation and performance like, very similar to that of Nobushi heavy.

In order to better understand why someone is not balanced even though on paper he is, you have to have better understanding of real melee combat in general. Only that way, when you look at Kensei gameplay, you can see that something is not quite well.

Knight_Raime
09-10-2018, 08:42 PM
However you think it's fair. I can take screenshots of my every game, even if Kensei is not involved, or I can take those with Kensei only. What I want to show is how much better Kensei performs than almost anyone else in the game. Maybe I am wrong, but just by observing, Kensei is almost always deadliest player in Dominion based on K/D. Will that be the case if I start taking all the data? Maybe yes, maybe not but I am willing to try to document it and if you have special request of how you want it to be done, I can do that. For additional info, I play in NA, usually matchmaking is Continent and I pretty much know most of the players. Maybe we even see some more "famous" faces.

I'd say that's more due to his feats than anything. His dodge attack while powerful is a wall for players to get over. Meaning it stops being such a big problem (outside revenge activation ofc) the better you become at the game. As far as him having the best dodge attack in the game Tiandi actually has the best.

DefiledDragon
09-10-2018, 08:44 PM
I'd say that's more due to his feats than anything. His dodge attack while powerful is a wall for players to get over. Meaning it stops being such a big problem (outside revenge activation ofc) the better you become at the game. As far as him having the best dodge attack in the game Tiandi actually has the best.

Tiandi isn't in the game yet.

I would also argue that it isn't as it's nowhere near as difficult to parry as Kensei's dodge. The timing on it is more like a heavy whereas Kensei's timing is more like a light.

Edit; I just went and tested this in the arena and the timing seems really strange. I'm not sure how to explain it but it doesn't feel like a normal heavy.

I can definitely see why so many people have trouble with Kensei's dodge attack compared to all the others in the game.

Xil_h
09-10-2018, 09:13 PM
Smarter discussion, really?

You can quote Kenseis numbers and moves but you are ignoring things that you can see only from gameplay.

His dodge is the safest dodge in this game. If not, who has better one?
His range on dodge attack his best in the game. If not, who has a better one?
Area he covers with his dodge is largest in the game, combination of range of his weapon and distance he covers while dodging.

In short, he has dodge attack that is better than any of assassin's, range on his dodge beats Valk and Nobu, his feint is better than any of the Vanguards and rivals that of assassin's, yet he has a health pool of a Vanguard.

All of his BS comes from dodge attack that was animated completely wrong for the type of weapon he is using and his class. Look at the Valk and Nobu who wield long range weapons. Their dodge is animated in a way that doesn't make them op just because range of their weapons. Even when they dodge, they just take one small side step, still staying squared to opponent and they don't use full potential of their weapons in unrealistic way, which I like.

Difference with Kensei from the very beginning was his dodge, which was done wrong. First of all, he shouldn't have dodge at all but if he has to it should work in a way similar to Nobu or Valk, one side step followed by attack at narrow angle that is mostly coming from the wirsts not swing of your arms.

Having a Kensei with current dodge is same as giving dodge option do Highlander, same animation as Kensei has. See anything wrong with that picture? There would be a carnage out there.

Game is not completely realistic but it's not complete fantasy as well. They did solid job with most of the heroes but Kensei is the one that is BS work, because of his feint and dodge which in no way would work with his weapon. Assassin are good at that because they mostly have very limited range, their weapons are short, Gladiator somewhat exception. But when you add same properties to someone who has at least 30% more range on his attack compared to your typical assasin, while still having health of a Vanguard, that is not balanced.

Kensei should have his dodge replaced by different animation as I already gave example of. His dodge heavy should be animation and performance like, very similar to that of Nobushi heavy.

In order to better understand why someone is not balanced even though on paper he is, you have to have better understanding of real melee combat in general. Only that way, when you look at Kensei gameplay, you can see that something is not quite well.

LOL
So you want to give Kensei the worst possible dodge heavy in game about which every Nobushi player complains?
Nobushis dodge heavy is neither a dodge nor a heavy, its plain BS.

I play Kensei and Nobushi btw...

Playing as Kensei is all about outsmarting your opponents, if you die to a Kensei its because you got outplayed.
I can deal with opposing Kenseis pretty well playing any other hero that I can use at least a little. All you have to do is be patient. Slow fights is where Kensei will lose. And don't parry unless you are certain the attack comes. Easy.
And I am not even a crack in this game, just a casual player.

Siegfried-Z
09-10-2018, 10:27 PM
Smarter discussion, really?

You can quote Kenseis numbers and moves but you are ignoring things that you can see only from gameplay.

His dodge is the safest dodge in this game. If not, who has better one?
His range on dodge attack his best in the game. If not, who has a better one?
Area he covers with his dodge is largest in the game, combination of range of his weapon and distance he covers while dodging.

In short, he has dodge attack that is better than any of assassin's, range on his dodge beats Valk and Nobu, his feint is better than any of the Vanguards and rivals that of assassin's, yet he has a health pool of a Vanguard.

All of his BS comes from dodge attack that was animated completely wrong for the type of weapon he is using and his class. Look at the Valk and Nobu who wield long range weapons. Their dodge is animated in a way that doesn't make them op just because range of their weapons. Even when they dodge, they just take one small side step, still staying squared to opponent and they don't use full potential of their weapons in unrealistic way, which I like.

Difference with Kensei from the very beginning was his dodge, which was done wrong. First of all, he shouldn't have dodge at all but if he has to it should work in a way similar to Nobu or Valk, one side step followed by attack at narrow angle that is mostly coming from the wirsts not swing of your arms.

Having a Kensei with current dodge is same as giving dodge option do Highlander, same animation as Kensei has. See anything wrong with that picture? There would be a carnage out there.

Game is not completely realistic but it's not complete fantasy as well. They did solid job with most of the heroes but Kensei is the one that is BS work, because of his feint and dodge which in no way would work with his weapon. Assassin are good at that because they mostly have very limited range, their weapons are short, Gladiator somewhat exception. But when you add same properties to someone who has at least 30% more range on his attack compared to your typical assasin, while still having health of a Vanguard, that is not balanced.

Kensei should have his dodge replaced by different animation as I already gave example of. His dodge heavy should be animation and performance like, very similar to that of Nobushi heavy.

In order to better understand why someone is not balanced even though on paper he is, you have to have better understanding of real melee combat in general. Only that way, when you look at Kensei gameplay, you can see that something is not quite well.

First of all you just pick up 3 different things about his dash saying he has the best of the game but talking about one single moove.. So you could say in your opinion his dash is the best, shorter.

You also say he shouldn't have a dash attack, well if i'm not wrong Warden has a SB after a dash and Raider has Stunning tap or GB option.. and overall, only 4 char in the whole game doesn't have one : Warlord, Shugo (both tanks) and then Centurion and Musha (Hybrids).

You can see there i don't put Highlander in.. and i can jump about what you're saying about Highlander "imagine if Highlander has a dash attack". But while it is not input as a classic dash attack, Highlander while in offensive stance does have an amazing recovery on his dodge whch allow him to kick and then have a guaranteed UB... which is quiet strong just for dodging an attack.

About his range, well as far as i know he is using a Nodachi, a two hands long Katana, so it looks normal he has a good range.

I can understand his dodge is strong in an anti-gank situation.. but how it is a problem in Duel ?


Tiandi isn't in the game yet.

I would also argue that it isn't as it's nowhere near as difficult to parry as Kensei's dodge. The timing on it is more like a heavy whereas Kensei's timing is more like a light.

Edit; I just went and tested this in the arena and the timing seems really strange. I'm not sure how to explain it but it doesn't feel like a normal heavy.

I can definitely see why so many people have trouble with Kensei's dodge attack compared to all the others in the game.

Disagree there, Kensei dodge looks like a light ? Common once you saw him land it it is a free parry even for an average player.

While Tiandi dodge is at least as fast and don't forget CAN BE FEINTED for another one, a light or a bash which makes a huge difference.

I gess that's why Knight Raime said he has the best and in that he is right.

DefiledDragon
09-11-2018, 12:23 AM
Disagree there, Kensei dodge looks like a light ? Common once you saw him land it it is a free parry even for an average player.

While Tiandi dodge is at least as fast and don't forget CAN BE FEINTED for another one, a light or a bash which makes a huge difference.

I gess that's why Knight Raime said he has the best and in that he is right.

Yeah, it was an easier parry than I thought it was. I think the weird animation is what throws me usually, which is why people likely struggle with it. The thing with Kensei is that he doesn't have any weaknesses. He has good health, HA on finishers, unblockable with a choice of soft feints, a 500 ms opener, good mobility, the ability to close distance with either a heavy or a light and a dodge attack. Have I missed anything? Now, let's talk about his weaknesses.

Erm... he doesn't have nuclear weapons I guess, so...

But seriously, there is no downside to picking Kensei.

Knight_Raime
09-11-2018, 01:33 AM
Tiandi isn't in the game yet.

I would also argue that it isn't as it's nowhere near as difficult to parry as Kensei's dodge. The timing on it is more like a heavy whereas Kensei's timing is more like a light.

Edit; I just went and tested this in the arena and the timing seems really strange. I'm not sure how to explain it but it doesn't feel like a normal heavy.

I can definitely see why so many people have trouble with Kensei's dodge attack compared to all the others in the game.

I know he isn't. But we've seen plenty of Tiandi and he's been changed twice since his first reveal. We're about a month or so out before the dlc drops. So I think it's safe to include him and at least Shaolin in hero discussions. (as Nuxia and JJ have only been available recently.)

I can't comment on the timing. It's been a long time since i've played for honor and even longer since i've fought a dodge heavy one. Plus I duel. I can imagine in 4's his dodge being a bit more probamatic. At the same time I can also see how it would be weaker.

Kensei's dodge attack used to throw me. and imo that's because the entire animation of the movement. It just looks weird. And he's always hitting the opposite side he's dodging. If this is what's tripping people up then i'd imagine they might have the same issue with JJ's side dash heavies. as they also go opposite side of his movement.

DefiledDragon
09-11-2018, 01:51 AM
I know he isn't. But we've seen plenty of Tiandi and he's been changed twice since his first reveal. We're about a month or so out before the dlc drops. So I think it's safe to include him and at least Shaolin in hero discussions. (as Nuxia and JJ have only been available recently.)

I can't comment on the timing. It's been a long time since i've played for honor and even longer since i've fought a dodge heavy one. Plus I duel. I can imagine in 4's his dodge being a bit more probamatic. At the same time I can also see how it would be weaker.

Kensei's dodge attack used to throw me. and imo that's because the entire animation of the movement. It just looks weird. And he's always hitting the opposite side he's dodging. If this is what's tripping people up then i'd imagine they might have the same issue with JJ's side dash heavies. as they also go opposite side of his movement.

Yeah, I only ever face him in 4's. I duel but I don't recall ever fighting a Kensei in a 1 v 1 other than a bot. I like him. Don't read my comments as me saying he's OP. I don't believe he is. He's on the edge, but there's nothing blatant about his kit, though he is really flexible and lacks any real weakness. I used to use him a lot and to support what GoldenKnight was saying to a degree, I did well with him in 4 v 4's, more so than any other char, save perhaps for Raider. I certainly do better with Kensei than I do with Warden who I have far more experience playing.

I'm always sympathetic to people who complain that Kensei is OP because I can see why people say that. He really is riding the line, but if every character was where he is right now we would have a much better game for it.

Vrbas1
09-11-2018, 02:22 PM
I'm always sympathetic to people who complain that Kensei is OP because I can see why people say that. He really is riding the line, but if every character was where he is right now we would have a much better game for it.

Pretty much this. Many people say he's the definition of balance, others argue his kit was boosted too much. Either way, he is the byproduct of special attention and I'd like to think if other hero's kits were given his level of focus and care we'd have a more level playing field for it.

Sweaty_Sock
09-11-2018, 02:29 PM
Pretty much this. Many people say he's the definition of balance, others argue his kit was boosted too much. Either way, he is the byproduct of special attention and I'd like to think if other hero's kits were given his level of focus and care we'd have a more level playing field for it.

Hes pretty much fine but with

1) range - his range/damage/speed seem at odds with the idea of a character favoring 1-2 aspects.
2) this is because of his zone. fix that, you fix any excuses to complain

NHLGoldenKnight
09-11-2018, 11:56 PM
LOL
So you want to give Kensei the worst possible dodge heavy in game about which every Nobushi player complains?
Nobushis dodge heavy is neither a dodge nor a heavy, its plain BS.

I play Kensei and Nobushi btw...

Playing as Kensei is all about outsmarting your opponents, if you die to a Kensei its because you got outplayed.
I can deal with opposing Kenseis pretty well playing any other hero that I can use at least a little. All you have to do is be patient. Slow fights is where Kensei will lose. And don't parry unless you are certain the attack comes. Easy.
And I am not even a crack in this game, just a casual player.


Firs of all, I was referring to 4v4 and there is no slow fight there. Very rarely. Just to make it clear on my end.

You are out smarting your opponent by having range and health of Vanguard, dodge and feint of an assasins, even superior to most of assasins?

Newsflash, you are not outsmarting anyone by your gameplay, you actually did that by your hero selection. If no one can see a problem with Kensei and the way he works , I don't know what else to tell you.

Yes, I used Nobushi as a perfect example on how to balance hero with long weapon plus dodge. Nobushi can use dodge, but it can't heavily rely on one. Dodge should be just a occasional option not safe as it is with Kensei. I have 4 or 5 heroes I am more proficient than with Kensei ( rep 11), yet whenever I play Kensei it is so much easier and more effective. And by judging some other comments here, other people experience that as well.

NHLGoldenKnight
09-12-2018, 12:16 AM
First of all you just pick up 3 different things about his dash saying he has the best of the game but talking about one single moove.. So you could say in your opinion his dash is the best, shorter.

You also say he shouldn't have a dash attack, well if i'm not wrong Warden has a SB after a dash and Raider has Stunning tap or GB option.. and overall, only 4 char in the whole game doesn't have one : Warlord, Shugo (both tanks) and then Centurion and Musha (Hybrids).

You can see there i don't put Highlander in.. and i can jump about what you're saying about Highlander "imagine if Highlander has a dash attack". But while it is not input as a classic dash attack, Highlander while in offensive stance does have an amazing recovery on his dodge whch allow him to kick and then have a guaranteed UB... which is quiet strong just for dodging an attack.

About his range, well as far as i know he is using a Nodachi, a two hands long Katana, so it looks normal he has a good range.

I can understand his dodge is strong in an anti-gank situation.. but how it is a problem in Duel ?



Disagree there, Kensei dodge looks like a light ? Common once you saw him land it it is a free parry even for an average player.

While Tiandi dodge is at least as fast and don't forget CAN BE FEINTED for another one, a light or a bash which makes a huge difference.

I gess that's why Knight Raime said he has the best and in that he is right.

I was referring to 4v4 all the time.

My problem with Kensei is not his dodge but the way it was implemented. Other Vanguards don't use full range of their weapons plus dodge at a 90 degree angle relevant to player. I just think that animation for his dodge is wrong and any hero with his range shouldn't be able to use that kind of dodge attack. There is a good reason why Lawbringer or Highlander don't have anything similar to Kensei and there is a reason why Valk and Nobu have the kind of dodge they have. Makes them balanced in terms of their weapon reach.

His weapon is exactly the reason why his dodge is completely stupid from realistic point of view and op compared to other dodge. He can out dodge any assasin with almost twice as range compared to some other assasins and he can rival their feint game. But with health and range of a Vanguard.

Tiandi is still not in the game but I already expressed my concern about him. Looks like Kensei on steroids and having him in the game will be even worse.

LargeBanana
09-12-2018, 02:26 AM
our beloved character Aramusha isn't even mentioned here :(

Aramusha needs some love, also they can get rid of the joke that is BB. no one would miss it.

vsOroParryOnly
09-12-2018, 06:44 AM
Kensei's side step attack hits my double back dodge Shinobi.
Double ****ing back dodge! those side step sweep are like heat seeking missile, stop that, make him actually side step when Kensei side step please,

Kensei's side step sweep is like moving to left/right and adding a rocket engine in his ***

Buggy.Blaster
09-12-2018, 08:11 AM
Kensal is the best rework ever, actually takes skill unlike the conc and warden bashes. stop the hate on the kensai when others are doing better, and the kendal is actually special and different. u want him to turn into a speed machine spam character like all the other reworks? thats what your going to get if he gets changed.

Charmzzz
09-12-2018, 08:20 AM
Kensal is the best rework ever, actually takes skill unlike the conc and warden bashes. stop the hate on the kensai when others are doing better, and the kendal is actually special and different. u want him to turn into a speed machine spam character like all the other reworks? thats what your going to get if he gets changed.

Well, I don't think that a small adjustment on his range and his Zone attack would render him underpowered nor would it change him into a "speed machine spam character".

Sweaty_Sock
09-12-2018, 09:30 AM
its just the zone... fix that and you fix him - its too fast for its range/damage and gives him a variant on his already impressive attacks - too many players just spam it mixed with lights and dodge attacks

Siegfried-Z
09-12-2018, 11:01 AM
I was referring to 4v4 all the time.

My problem with Kensei is not his dodge but the way it was implemented. Other Vanguards don't use full range of their weapons plus dodge at a 90 degree angle relevant to player. I just think that animation for his dodge is wrong and any hero with his range shouldn't be able to use that kind of dodge attack. There is a good reason why Lawbringer or Highlander don't have anything similar to Kensei and there is a reason why Valk and Nobu have the kind of dodge they have. Makes them balanced in terms of their weapon reach.

His weapon is exactly the reason why his dodge is completely stupid from realistic point of view and op compared to other dodge. He can out dodge any assasin with almost twice as range compared to some other assasins and he can rival their feint game. But with health and range of a Vanguard.

Tiandi is still not in the game but I already expressed my concern about him. Looks like Kensei on steroids and having him in the game will be even worse.

Well, i can hear what you're saying .. but still you're only complaining about a dash attack.

A slow dash attack.. how do you explain Kensei were close to be the worst char before his rework while having the exact same dash ?(except was a light).

Another point is i don't agree he can out dodge assassins.. as some of them have undodgable property which kensei Didn't.

I agree with what has been said, playing kensei is about outsmarting. Not as warden conq zerk etc .

Why? Because everything he land is possible to react and to punish if you read well your opponent.


Kensei's side step attack hits my double back dodge Shinobi.
Double ****ing back dodge! those side step sweep are like heat seeking missile, stop that, make him actually side step when Kensei side step please,

Kensei's side step sweep is like moving to left/right and adding a rocket engine in his ***

Lol Shinobi is one of the safiest char. . I gess it disturb you to get hit while you use to fight out of your opponent range 95% of times haha

Vrbas1
09-12-2018, 02:33 PM
Lol Shinobi is one of the safiest char. . I gess it disturb you to get hit while you use to fight out of your opponent range 95% of times haha

Perhaps. His point remains valid though. It is still a double dodge, and Kensei's moves do have a "heat-seeking" quality to them compared to others.

Case in point. I was playing Gladiator yesterday and I was positioned at about Kensei's maximum reach from a top heavy/top light (as we all know, that's a good bit of distance because Kensei has superb range). I anticipated a side heavy/light so I backrolled. Just as I was backrolling, at this point putting nearly double the distance between us, he initiated a side heavy or light (can't recall), and proceeded to vacuum suck-ski across the wide berth of ground that had separated us, and smacked me out of my backroll; now he's in my face.

This isn't Warden's forward rush heavy attack, one DESIGNED to catch a retreat. Or zerks leaping heavy/light. Or Warlord's leaping heavy/headbutt. No, this is a SIDE attack that gravity-wells you from a huge distance.

I'm sorry, this is not OK. And if you think it is, you're part of the reason so many are frustrated with his kit and fight dynamics because you are so quick to stand by him as a "perfect" character - probably because you enjoy wrecking face with his exploitable mechanics.

Roseguard_Cpt
09-12-2018, 03:25 PM
I'm starting to feel old now, been here since beta and even when the Kensei dodge move was a light it could be spammed, so we the Old Warriors learned how to do a simple thing. Bait. Throw a heavy and feint it. If they do the dodge attack, parry. It will take some practice but make you amazing at countering obvious moves. It works against all dodge attacks as they cannot be feinted (until Tiandi comes out, that will take some advanced baiting.) I don't consider the move exploitative as it has an easy counter. I would consider the old unlock tech an exploit, and it was removed as exploits are.
Learn how to bait and parry and you'll have a much better time. Thanks for the read.
RGC

Siegfried-Z
09-12-2018, 04:16 PM
Perhaps. His point remains valid though. It is still a double dodge, and Kensei's moves do have a "heat-seeking" quality to them compared to others.

Case in point. I was playing Gladiator yesterday and I was positioned at about Kensei's maximum reach from a top heavy/top light (as we all know, that's a good bit of distance because Kensei has superb range). I anticipated a side heavy/light so I backrolled. Just as I was backrolling, at this point putting nearly double the distance between us, he initiated a side heavy or light (can't recall), and proceeded to vacuum suck-ski across the wide berth of ground that had separated us, and smacked me out of my backroll; now he's in my face.

This isn't Warden's forward rush heavy attack, one DESIGNED to catch a retreat. Or zerks leaping heavy/light. Or Warlord's leaping heavy/headbutt. No, this is a SIDE attack that gravity-wells you from a huge distance.

I'm sorry, this is not OK. And if you think it is, you're part of the reason so many are frustrated with his kit and fight dynamics because you are so quick to stand by him as a "perfect" character - probably because you enjoy wrecking face with his exploitable mechanics.

Shinobi double dodge is just an animation. . If he isnt kicking the distance he goes is not that large. .

What you just say explain why you've got it.
If you start a backroll Before the guy land his attack. . It very often tracks you against long range opponent.

It happen to me yesterday agaisnt a Raider and i just eat a top heavy because of that (i was ezcaping his trap).

But two advices for you :
1/ the fact you just backroll before the Kensei does anything show that you suffer a lack of skills at fighting, at least against Kensei.
2/ so thinking in a différent way than you means beeing someone who breaks the game? Interesting pov. . You know what really break the game ?
400ms moove as Roch lights
Abused 4v4 mooves as stampede charge, Raider zone, demon embrace, cent stab etc
Highlander 50/50
Conq and warden kit ..
Revenge buff
Holes everywhere on maps
Feats that allow to kill a whole team without even fighting as catapult, spear storm and LB bombs. .

These things are annoying..not kensei kit which just require a bit of skills and brain To handle with.

Good that feats are going to be nerf and that perks gonna replace these stupids gear stats which allow revenge build.

Vrbas1
09-12-2018, 04:42 PM
1/ the fact you just backroll before the Kensei does anything show that you suffer a lack of skills at fighting, at least against Kensei.

Well I did fail to mention this was in 4v4 and I was about to get grouped so also why I backrolled. I don't consider myself a pro but I by no means lack fighting skills having played since beta; I feel I have a pretty good grasp of the game.

Siegfried-Z
09-12-2018, 09:13 PM
Well I did fail to mention this was in 4v4 and I was about to get grouped so also why I backrolled. I don't consider myself a pro but I by no means lack fighting skills having played since beta; I feel I have a pretty good grasp of the game.

Ok then i understand.
I am there since the begenning too.. and i agree Kensei is strong .
But in my opinion and by logic in my pov he isnt op.
So i want to ask you, that's a real question no sarcasm there.. as a "veteran" in the game too let's say that do you really have more problem against Kensei than against Conq and Warden?? I have more trouble with those two on my side.

I main kensei of course so it is by definition a bad match up for me To fight them with Kensei as he already has a low winrate agaisnt them and even before rework.

If you main Glad (which is one of my top 4 char) i understand you can have troubles against Kensei more than against conq etc.

But if you do, how are you not complaining about Roch more than Kensei ?^^
I mean kensei at least has to mix up.. while Roch can just spam light To death others assassins .. even agaisnt zerk if smart ..
Ive tried with my best friend a week ago ..
He pick up his main and he is a rep60 zerk .. i pick up my Roch rep3 only and i've won 3 To 1 ...

Vrbas1
09-13-2018, 03:41 AM
Ok then i understand.
I am there since the begenning too.. and i agree Kensei is strong .
But in my opinion and by logic in my pov he isnt op.
So i want to ask you, that's a real question no sarcasm there.. as a "veteran" in the game too let's say that do you really have more problem against Kensei than against Conq and Warden?? I have more trouble with those two on my side.

I main kensei of course so it is by definition a bad match up for me To fight them with Kensei as he already has a low winrate agaisnt them and even before rework.

If you main Glad (which is one of my top 4 char) i understand you can have troubles against Kensei more than against conq etc.

But if you do, how are you not complaining about Roch more than Kensei ?^^
I mean kensei at least has to mix up.. while Roch can just spam light To death others assassins .. even agaisnt zerk if smart ..
Ive tried with my best friend a week ago ..
He pick up his main and he is a rep60 zerk .. i pick up my Roch rep3 only and i've won 3 To 1 ...

I hate rochi. His light attacks are akin to mushus wheel of death, stun lock. He's a nightmare for reflex guard heroes. I think rochi is incredibly strong, but at least I can land hits on him that make logical sense. Kensei is more frustrating in my opinion because his attacks are safer and mitigate damage altogether sometimes.

Nose1234F
09-13-2018, 04:08 AM
I think Kensei is where all heroes should be at. No hero should be stronger or weaker. The weakest acceptable should be Nobushi. Everything above Ken should be nerfed (Highlander, Shaman), anything below buffed (Aramusha, Nobushi, Raider, Lawbro)