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XyZspineZyX
12-07-2003, 02:47 PM
Hi Mr. Oleg and friends around here http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I need help ... after I saw a very good website in SimHQ
is about "Energy Manueverability Diagram"

http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_011a.html

"Energy Manueverability Diagram"
http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_011g.html

Spitfire MkIX vs. P-51
http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_011l.html

109G10 vs. La-5FN
http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_065d.html



I like this kind of diagram because they show a lot of infomation like :
- Top seed:
- Corner Velocity ( 6g stall speed)
- Turn rate at coner velocity
- 1g. Stall Speed
- Best sustained turn velocity
- Turn rate at best sustained velocity
- Turn radius at best sustained velociy
- Speed for best sustained g:
- Best sustained g:

but it would be good if this information come from your source.. Mr.Oleg http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

as the patch 1.21 change a lot of FM to many airplane , Do you make this kind of this information or
you have a very good friend update this data for you ?

the airplane list I would like to see in "Energy Manueverability Diagram" are 109K4 ,190A9 ,La-7,P-51,P-47, Ki84 and more http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

any friends know the reference site please advice. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Oh , for your BOB project , it would very good if you give this kind of this information to your friend before the game will finish

Regards,

9/BK_karost

XyZspineZyX
12-07-2003, 02:47 PM
Hi Mr. Oleg and friends around here http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I need help ... after I saw a very good website in SimHQ
is about "Energy Manueverability Diagram"

http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_011a.html

"Energy Manueverability Diagram"
http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_011g.html

Spitfire MkIX vs. P-51
http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_011l.html

109G10 vs. La-5FN
http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_065d.html



I like this kind of diagram because they show a lot of infomation like :
- Top seed:
- Corner Velocity ( 6g stall speed)
- Turn rate at coner velocity
- 1g. Stall Speed
- Best sustained turn velocity
- Turn rate at best sustained velocity
- Turn radius at best sustained velociy
- Speed for best sustained g:
- Best sustained g:

but it would be good if this information come from your source.. Mr.Oleg http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

as the patch 1.21 change a lot of FM to many airplane , Do you make this kind of this information or
you have a very good friend update this data for you ?

the airplane list I would like to see in "Energy Manueverability Diagram" are 109K4 ,190A9 ,La-7,P-51,P-47, Ki84 and more http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

any friends know the reference site please advice. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Oh , for your BOB project , it would very good if you give this kind of this information to your friend before the game will finish

Regards,

9/BK_karost

XyZspineZyX
12-07-2003, 07:55 PM
Energy Manueverability Diagrams for all the planes in IL2/FB would be great.

E-M Charts that include Lines of constant Ps will show energy capabilites.

For example in the chart linked in the post above titled:

IL2 Forgotten Battles
Energy Maneuverability Diagram
LA5-FN
Bf-109G-10

If this chart does actually show the Forgotten Battles in
game performance capabilites of those two planes it then indicates that the LA5-FN nearly dominates the entire turn performance flight envelope for the altitude this chart was plotted.

The LA5-FN will out rate and out radius the Bf-109G-10 in all but a very narrow margin of speed.

This is not the whole story. If the chart included angle or rate of decent or lines of constant values of Ps then the information would show energy maneuverability where one plane would compare to another in it's ability to gain or lose energy.

Having the overlay of rates of decent, angles of decent or constant values of Ps, as far as I understand, will enable the comparison of which plane is capable of retaining more energy in combat.

Without the additional information of rates of decent, angles of decent or constant values of Ps the E-M charts are actually two dimentional turn performance charts. The energy loss informaition adds the third dimention and illuminates more relevant combat capabilities.

Energy bleed is defined by E-M charts with the decent/angle or excess power/Ps information.

Look back at the SimHQ 109 vs LA5FN turn performance chart and imagine having those lines of constant decent (or climb) for both planes.

The plane with wider spacing between lines will bleed less
energy while maneuvering. The plane with much wider spaceing between lines will bleed much less energy while maneuvering.

If Ps contours are including into the turn performance charts then the energy maneuverability information shows which plane comes out on top when they both start pulling on the stick.

At least that is how I understand the situtaion.

Another way of looking at the situation is that if one plane has much lower loss of energy maneuverability it will not lose as much altitude in a nose low turn at corner speed.

Imagine two planes turning at the fastest rate possible which is the slowest speed that produces the highest G force. Since the G force maximum is limited by blackout in IL2/FB then corner velocity or the fastest turn rate possible in IL2/FB should be arrived at the slowest speed where the pilot is almost blacked out.

For example just imagine that speed is 350kph.

In order to maintain the highest rate turn both planes must turn nose low at corner speed. As energy is lost in turning the angle of dive regains that lost energy. The plane with the least energy loss will have less angle of decent. After one revolution in this maximum turn rate turn the plane with the least energy loss will be higher than the plane with the higher energy loss.


JG14_Josf

XyZspineZyX
12-08-2003, 02:48 AM
Wow ... JG14_Josf,thanks for join the post

you are good reader in EM-Diagrams , can you imagine if you have EM-Diagrams for 109K4 vs. P-51D on your hand now.. I 'am sure you have to improve your tactic , right ? LOL



Energy Manueverability Diagrams will become a very good material for a lot of people to play online at advance level like VEF2 and VOW for 1943-1945 and that time LW pilot have a lot of home work to do before hunting P-51 or LA-7 only a Energy tactic can apply for the first move.

Mr. Oleg ,I hope this material will include in "CD Ace's Expansion Pack" for all flyable airplanes.



S!

XyZspineZyX
12-08-2003, 04:38 AM
Karost,

I think it is only fair that Oleg give us these energy maneuverability diagrams since the flight models change with every patch. In the real war the old hands were able to learn relative strenghts and weaknesses of their opponents, they did not have to relearn them like we do http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Please notice the smiley face. I am looking forward to the new Battle of Britain simulator even if it does not have EM diagrams.

Tonight on the greatergreen server at Hyperlobby I had a turn fight with a P-51 or two at greater than 8,000 meters altitude. Around and around we went in a right hand turn. Who do you think dropped out first?

An E-M chart comparison for that altitude would have our two planes about equal, I think, at least until I turned on the methanol water and openned the throttle. Down on the stall line with a lot of rudder the K4 churnned around in a level turn gaining on the Mustang as if it were frozen in place.

Sim pilot talk can tend to be exagerated http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

An Altitude Mach or HM or E-M turn performance chart for any plane matchup in the sim will be a great help to understand which tactics should work against specific planes. But the information must be accurate.

There was a program called IL2compare that gave specific turn, climb, and Max level speed performance for each fighter plane in the previous version of the game.

This was useful, not as useful as the 3 dimentional Energy Maneuverability diagram but useful enough to be able to see which tactics tended to suit specific plane matchups.

IL2compare has since been reported as inaccurate and not representative of actual game performance.

It worked for me.

IL2compare suggested to me that the 109E7 was better suited to angles tactics against the Mig3.

I found that to be true in the game.

In a fight with a Mig3 with a 109E7 the idea was to go for possition. 2 circle lead turn yank and bank stall fighting anchored to the deck. The Mig would drop out first. Don't forget to use flaps.

IL2compare could also show the dreaded double inferior situations when neither angles nor energy tactics were going to work.

With accurate E-M diagrams that include values for excess energy or Ps the tactician could find the areas in the flight envelope that his plane out performs the opponents and he could do this before installing the new patch without having to relearn the flight models from scratch every time.

Some people may think that relearning is part of the fun. I don't think that opinion would be common for people playing in the on-line wars.

With E-M diagrams that accurately show the changes in flight models; players could see at a glance when a plane is changed in relative performance and by how much.

Joe




JG14_Josf