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iadvisoryi
08-28-2018, 10:36 PM
I just recently picked up nobushi, got her to rep one, watched tons of "best nobushi on console" videos and learned her ins and outs.

I've learned that she has no offense, without her defense, and to use her to her full potential you almost have to fully rely on punishes and parrys.

With the amount of faint characters and faintable attacks right now I think polishing up her hidden stance would be good, either make the Dodge window bigger or make the start up and cancel out of the stance faster.

As to her attacks they are all slow, every single one of them are reactable and parry able, I'm not saying speed them up, but I'd like to see either armor, or an unblockable on a finishing heavy, and also more chains for combos, her triple light sucks and is never hit, double heavy is only good when a player is out of stamina and on the floor lol, she needs more chains hands down.

Her dashing light and dashing heavy could be made to actually have Dodge property, since they're slow and reactable, being able to counter with it would be very useful.

I believe everything else she has is fine and all these changes wouldn't be necessary but some are, having a slow hybrid with lots of damage that has to rely on defending to do said damage makes for a poor 4v4 experience with her and a mediocre dual experience.

(You could also give her kick armor, it would be a luxury, and probably break her but meh Lol, just a thought)

These ideas are also a replacement to just speeding everything she has up, I don't like the idea of making her a light spammy character, there's enough of those already. Just use some of these steps.

iadvisoryi
08-29-2018, 05:16 AM
Also I think the community would agree that smaller more frequent updates would be preferred and would make for a better game balance, other than the big reworks

Zhantay
08-29-2018, 05:11 PM
-She needs to be able to feint her first and second heavy into hidden stance similar to how she can feint her first light attack.

-Give her a unblockable side heavy

-Reduce the stamina usage of Hidden Stance or give her stamina back for every attack she lands after using hidden stance or give her Jiang Jun Stance that allows him to recharge stamina even when he is out of stamina

-Make Swift Recoil cancel-able or let it block all incoming attacks
* I'm Rep 56 with Nobushi and can't use this move because it's puts you back slightly and holds you in the animation long enough for anyone with a gap closer to keep hitting you. It's sole purpose is to create distance between you and your opponent and it can't even do that.

Roseguard_Cpt
08-29-2018, 06:19 PM
I'm Rep 25 with her on console, the changes I'd like to see are;
Cancel any basic heavy or light into HS (not the Side-Step sweep however)
Swift Recoil negates tracking of attacks
Replace Second Wind with Slip-Through (or maybe Blissful Rest please)
-at least fix the Second Wind animation
Allow Stamina regen in Hidden Stance if held for at least 1 second
Up the Light damage after HS to what it used to be

Any or all of these would be lovely, though all may break her tier placement

Lord_Cherubi
08-29-2018, 06:50 PM
I'd say buff her "dodge" attack, either make it actually dodge attacks or make it so she can initiate the attack slightly later

iadvisoryi
08-29-2018, 07:28 PM
I'm Rep 25 with her on console, the changes I'd like to see are;
Cancel any basic heavy or light into HS (not the Side-Step sweep however)
Swift Recoil negates tracking of attacks
Replace Second Wind with Slip-Through (or maybe Blissful Rest please)
-at least fix the Second Wind animation
Allow Stamina regen in Hidden Stance if held for at least 1 second
Up the Light damage after HS to what it used to be

Any or all of these would be lovely, though all may break her tier placement

I agree. She's gotten nothing but nerfs. It would be cool to spar with you if you're on ps4

iadvisoryi
08-29-2018, 07:30 PM
-She needs to be able to feint her first and second heavy into hidden stance similar to how she can feint her first light attack.

-Give her a unblockable side heavy

-Reduce the stamina usage of Hidden Stance or give her stamina back for every attack she lands after using hidden stance or give her Jiang Jun Stance that allows him to recharge stamina even when he is out of stamina

-Make Swift Recoil cancel-able or let it block all incoming attacks
* I'm Rep 56 with Nobushi and can't use this move because it's puts you back slightly and holds you in the animation long enough for anyone with a gap closer to keep hitting you. It's sole purpose is to create distance between you and your opponent and it can't even do that.

I agree with that as well, I can see a lot of it put her in a good place. If you're on the PS4 console I would also like to spar with you

Nose1234F
08-29-2018, 10:55 PM
She's not terrible, but she definitely lags behind others like Shaman or Gladiator. Second light in the chain needs increased speed, otherwise it gets parried every single time. I don't know the miliseconds for the Valk rework, but Nobu lights should be about the same.

iadvisoryi
08-29-2018, 11:26 PM
She's not terrible, but she definitely lags behind others like Shaman or Gladiator. Second light in the chain needs increased speed, otherwise it gets parried every single time. I don't know the miliseconds for the Valk rework, but Nobu lights should be about the same.

Everything she does is reactable and parryable including the first light in the chain, she doesn't need her lights sped up, she's a ranged punisher. Her punishing tools need to be polished a little bit. She doesn't need the valk treatment. She should be staying true to her roots.

voiddp
08-30-2018, 12:01 AM
Well it is possible to dodge hits with her dodge attack even now but window to activate attack is too small and its too risky to even try, you need to start dodge too close before hit to be able to activate move after hit passes.
1. So just make windows of activation bigger. Don't even need dodge properties like that. Just bigger delay. Now its works only with deflect timing and not very usefull like that. 2 dodge attacks and both almost useless for def now. Too big waste

2. Second thing make all her lights 500ms, dont need to make any 400, but just 500, now its not funny when reworked chars get 400ms comboed, and you have 600ms comboed. Why this even a thing that a combo slows you down, it dictates to just not use that combo. And top from neutral, why its 600ms too. All to 500ms please

3. Either make kick feintable or give us new unblockable hit anywhere. Current meta theme of reworks is "to make enemy react" well nobu can't make enemy react with anything now.

buff_Nobushi
08-30-2018, 09:05 AM
My three biggest problems with Nobushi are Hidden Stance, her dodge attack and Swift Recoil.

Jiang Jun can recover his stamina, even when Oos, while Nobushi loses a huge hunk of stamina. Either give her the ability to recover just like Jiang Jun or perhaps just reduce the stamina cost.

The dodge attacks aren't really "dodge" attacks and that does quite annoy me.
I-frames seem like a valid solution, they're dodge attacks after all. If not, simply make the window of activation bigger/increase the time we can delay the dodge attacks.

And Swift Recoil? It's a move supposed to put distance between you and your enemy but it can't even do that.
You're stuck in the animation way too long, an enemy with any kind of gap closing attack or simply an attack with good tracking WILL hit you and there's nothing you can do. Why not make it a bit quicker? Reduce the recovery time?
But that alone wouldn't help. You have to be able to put some distance between you and your opponent (relatively) safely!
What about an all-around-block?
The way Nobushi twirls her Naginata around, I mean, an all-around-block would make also sense animation-wise.

iadvisoryi
08-30-2018, 09:30 AM
My three biggest problems with Nobushi are Hidden Stance, her dodge attack and Swift Recoil.

Jiang Jun can recover his stamina, even when Oos, while Nobushi loses a huge hunk of stamina. Either give her the ability to recover just like Jiang Jun or perhaps just reduce the stamina cost.

The dodge attacks aren't really "dodge" attacks and that does quite annoy me.
I-frames seem like a valid solution, they're dodge attacks after all. If not, simply make the window of activation bigger/increase the time we can delay the dodge attacks.

And Swift Recoil? It's a move supposed to put distance between you and your enemy but it can't even do that.
You're stuck in the animation way too long, an enemy with any kind of gap closing attack or simply an attack with good tracking WILL hit you and there's nothing you can do. Why not make it a bit quicker? Reduce the recovery time?
But that alone wouldn't help. You have to be able to put some distance between you and your opponent (relatively) safely!
What about an all-around-block?
The way Nobushi twirls her Naginata around, I mean, an all-around-block would make also sense animation-wise.

I agree completely

Mysza-Haru
08-30-2018, 10:58 AM
For sure nobushi need some changes. From my point of view:

1.Faster atacks options
2.Cobra strike tweaks
3.Stamina drain on HS
4.Attacks that force you to react

DefiledDragon
08-30-2018, 11:51 AM
For sure nobushi need some changes. From my point of view:

1.Faster atacks options
2.Cobra strike tweaks
3.Stamina drain on HS
4.Attacks that force you to react

All attacks force a reaction. You can't beat any character by putting the controller down or taking your hands off the keyboard.

Mysza-Haru
08-30-2018, 12:15 PM
Mental shortcut. I mean some unblockable,50/50 situation,soft feint. Now nobushi feint game is super staimina draining and easy to punish. You only wait and block all atacks. 0 risk.

David_gorda
08-30-2018, 12:33 PM
Isnt nobu the best Class in 2vs 2 brawls and dominion? He Seems to Always be picked in those Two gamemodes when People play competive. His limited in 1vs1 Definetly but i think buffing him in 1vs1 might make him to op in other gamemodes.

DefiledDragon
08-30-2018, 12:36 PM
Mental shortcut. I mean some unblockable,50/50 situation,soft feint. Now nobushi feint game is super staimina draining and easy to punish. You only wait and block all atacks. 0 risk.

You could say that of any character though. Blocking attacks isn't difficult, which is why we have all these unblockables/bashes. The fact that the game is forced to implement unblockable attacks and/or bashes that guarantee damage is indicative of a fundamental flaw in it's mechanics. This fundamental flaw is also why the game will never be balanced in any interesting or meaningful way. Watch any high level play and what you see is feint spam. It's boring.

I think the game would be far more interesting and fun to play if every character had reflex guard with a decay of around 500-700ms. No unblockables, no bashes and blocked attacks still allow you to continue the chain instead of bouncing off and resetting the fight. Combat would be far more fluid and dynamic than what we have now. It's too easy to reset to a staring/feinting contest.

Just my opinion of course.

Mysza-Haru
08-30-2018, 03:00 PM
You could say that of any character though. Blocking attacks isn't difficult, which is why we have all these unblockables/bashes. The fact that the game is forced to implement unblockable attacks and/or bashes that guarantee damage is indicative of a fundamental flaw in it's mechanics. This fundamental flaw is also why the game will never be balanced in any interesting or meaningful way. Watch any high level play and what you see is feint spam. It's boring.

I think the game would be far more interesting and fun to play if every character had reflex guard with a decay of around 500-700ms. No unblockables, no bashes and blocked attacks still allow you to continue the chain instead of bouncing off and resetting the fight. Combat would be far more fluid and dynamic than what we have now. It's too easy to reset to a staring/feinting contest.

Just my opinion of course.


Interesting approach. Maby in FOR HONOR 2, currently too late for such changes.

voiddp
08-30-2018, 03:05 PM
Well mostly not for this game already. wont be remade so much. Now its the other case. Current meta is to give some character feintable UB attack and tell people that it is for forcing people to react and balanced.
So most reworks and new ones get that attack. And while other characters are stil fun to play and all, but without such treat of UB coming most people will just block easier and will just stare at you and your feints. OR start to use their UB attacks that they already have, and force you to react on them.
If it goes to be like this, then to be fair every character need to get some UB attack. To play on equal term of forcing other players to to something other than block.

DefiledDragon
08-30-2018, 03:31 PM
Well mostly not for this game already. wont be remade so much. Now its the other case. Current meta is to give some character feintable UB attack and tell people that it is for forcing people to react and balanced.
So most reworks and new ones get that attack. And while other characters are stil fun to play and all, but without such treat of UB coming most people will just block easier and will just stare at you and your feints. OR start to use their UB attacks that they already have, and force you to react on them.
If it goes to be like this, then to be fair every character need to get some UB attack. To play on equal term of forcing other players to to something other than block.

Exactly. It's a slippery slope and the game is already too far down it to turn back now without a complete redesign, which isn't going to happen.

buff_Nobushi
08-31-2018, 01:01 AM
Before we drift away too much from the actual topic of this thread, I'd also really a new chain or two.

You know what I'd also like? To be able to cancel the second part of the zone attack into a top Viper's Retreat.
Why? Because it would look pretty cool.

Honestly, Nobushi is one of the most balanced heroes out there, besides Kensei and such of course, but the problem is being "balanced" won't help you against heroes who are able to soft-feint almost everything, quick assassins with hyper armor, etc.

Nobushi doesn't need those Swift Recoil/Hidden Stance/Dodge Attack changes immediately or anything, not as long as we have heroes like Shugoki or Warlord running around.
But she honestly needs a buff or two.

Zhantay
08-31-2018, 02:14 AM
I agree with that as well, I can see a lot of it put her in a good place. If you're on the PS4 console I would also like to spar with you

Sorry I play on Xbox

NHLGoldenKnight
08-31-2018, 02:47 AM
I am only rep 3 Nobushi but in 4v4 I can do well just by poking opponents. :)

TruisticRusty
09-01-2018, 07:59 PM
Before I give suggestions on how to improve Nobushi, I feel like I must rephase her description. The Nobushi is a long range fighter with versatile retreats. She has the range, but I think we can all agree that the versatile retreats is ( to an extent ) a myth.
To me versatile retreats mean that she is able to get in and out of scenarios that no one else can. Though she can dodge/hidden stance moments that others can only block, this does not live up to its expectation.
I've experienced the ability to attack an uninteruptable with a light then cancel the attack recover into a hidden stance avoiding the damage, but this is highly unlikely to happen in a real match as it requires perfect timing. I feel like this technique should be useful for reactions and less likely for anticapating.
Of couse other inputs need a balance change. I actually agree with the swift recoil not being trackable. Only because the Beserker is a hard counter to Nobushi as it is and swift recoil would be the only useful tech to give her a fighting chance. As well with the cobra strike. Giving this dodging light a bit later input would give the Nobushi the ability to react to a guard break, thus making what would be a mixup for most, not real for her.
I don't think the Nobushi needs offensive tech as the developers has clearly focused on that more than her defensive capabilities. However, an idea to make her the only character to dodge undogables is quite appealing, but I wouldn't go as far as following up with a punish.
These changes would make the Nobushi a nuisance to play against which fits her style, as she doesn't really have any offensive capabilities that can successfully do that. Note that none of these are for damage. They are built entirely on defensive reactions. No one can react perfectly 100% of the time.

UbiJurassic
09-01-2018, 08:24 PM
Thanks for sharing the feedback and suggestions everyone! While Nobushi did get a gameplay update with the Season 5 update, we have seen quite a few players ask for additional changes to the hero. I'll get the feedback along to the team. :)

tehemperorer
09-06-2018, 06:01 PM
Just let Nobushi feint heavies coming from HS and HS-cancel lights and heavies from HS, that's literally all she needs.

voiddp
09-06-2018, 10:34 PM
Hm what stops you to feint heavies that come from HS xD?