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View Full Version : 20mm vs. .303



XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 02:53 AM
Watching Greatest Military Clashes on the Discovery channel. The episode first compared the Sherman to the Tiger which was very very cool. Now they are comparing the Spit to the Bf-109 in the BoB. For firepower they replicated a the armor of a Bf-109 wing/Spit wing and fired the respective gun against it. The .303 fired a burst of 15 or so bullets at the sheet and it made a few holes, nothing major. When the 20mm fired on the Spit wing it ripped much bigger holes in the wing. They awarded the firepower catagory to the Bf-109. In my opinion the .303's arn't undermodeled in this game but instead modeled just right. If you get the enemy spot on your convergance range you can decimate them, but as soon as you stray even a few 10's of meteres from your convergance they become almost useless while even a singe 20mm can cut a wing in half even out of convergance. This is my insight on it so don't get your undies in a bunch.

<img src="http://www.geocities.com/agrill101/Sig.jpg.txt"

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 02:53 AM
Watching Greatest Military Clashes on the Discovery channel. The episode first compared the Sherman to the Tiger which was very very cool. Now they are comparing the Spit to the Bf-109 in the BoB. For firepower they replicated a the armor of a Bf-109 wing/Spit wing and fired the respective gun against it. The .303 fired a burst of 15 or so bullets at the sheet and it made a few holes, nothing major. When the 20mm fired on the Spit wing it ripped much bigger holes in the wing. They awarded the firepower catagory to the Bf-109. In my opinion the .303's arn't undermodeled in this game but instead modeled just right. If you get the enemy spot on your convergance range you can decimate them, but as soon as you stray even a few 10's of meteres from your convergance they become almost useless while even a singe 20mm can cut a wing in half even out of convergance. This is my insight on it so don't get your undies in a bunch.

<img src="http://www.geocities.com/agrill101/Sig.jpg.txt"

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 02:55 AM
simply looking at the two shells in the sig below should make it obvious the diffrence


the arguments that go on in this forum are more to do with the way the 7.62/.303 ammo appears to do almost no damage at all .. no-one expects a .303 to do the same damage as a 20mm cannon

<center> http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SQDLAtUWiWZ3BKw19!aryp7v3C1h1DuNwpHOOuqhlraGSyMAY KiPEOZAA1OBgsLu*Sa0UQ2my0PiFyvNkJ5K7Clsoy7yNtEvOXY nHDuPNiotpZACY2oJxw/aircraftround.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 03:33 AM
they would have only been mgff as well, not the later much more powerful cannons.

http://lamppost.mine.nu/ahclan/files/sigs/spitwhiners1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 03:35 AM
What the Bf 109 doesn't have is eight 20mm's firing at once. Its definately not indispute that the Bf109 had superior firepower at the time of the Battle of Britain but the Spits and Hurricanes did have eight .303's going at once. As mentioned, with the right convergence...you tear stuff up, damage control cables, take out engien components, create fuel leaks, and blow out the oil tank.

Now with the Mk V's about a year later...I bet the firepower goes to the Spitfire. Hispano's were very deadly 20mm cannons.

http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/icefire/icefire_tempest.jpg
"Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few." - Winston Churchill

Message Edited on 09/22/0302:35AM by VW-IceFire

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 03:35 AM
being a complete noob.. i have to ask whats the diff between the 103 and the 108 cannons ?



"id buy that for a dollar"

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 03:41 AM
Menthol_moose wrote:
- being a complete noob.. i have to ask whats the diff
- between the 103 and the 108 cannons ?
-


same payload but the mk103 has more "oomph"

see the pic http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

the mk103 hits a lot harder and has a flatter trajectory

<center> http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SQDLAtUWiWZ3BKw19!aryp7v3C1h1DuNwpHOOuqhlraGSyMAY KiPEOZAA1OBgsLu*Sa0UQ2my0PiFyvNkJ5K7Clsoy7yNtEvOXY nHDuPNiotpZACY2oJxw/aircraftround.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 03:43 AM
Menthol,

The difference is in muzzle velocity for the two guns.

The Mk108 has a greater muzzle velocity than the 103.

I *think* the projectiles were pretty much the same; maybe the 103 has a little more explosive in it...but was harder to place on target than the 108 due to its even lower muzzle velocity.

Not sure if there's also a weight difference between the two guns, as well.

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 03:51 AM
thanks...

i always read alot about the mk108..
but the 103 doesnt get mentioned as often





"id buy that for a dollar"

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 03:57 AM
Stiglr wrote:
- Menthol,
-
- The difference is in muzzle velocity for the two
- guns.
-
- The Mk108 has a greater muzzle velocity than the
- 103.
-


Muzzle Velocities of the MK103 is much higher according to this:

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/mk103.html


The mk103 does a lot more damage especially at long range .. and is much easier to "snipe" with from 500 metre or more.

<center> http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SQDLAtUWiWZ3BKw19!aryp7v3C1h1DuNwpHOOuqhlraGSyMAY KiPEOZAA1OBgsLu*Sa0UQ2my0PiFyvNkJ5K7Clsoy7yNtEvOXY nHDuPNiotpZACY2oJxw/aircraftround.jpg </center>

Message Edited on 09/22/0302:58AM by WTE_Galway

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 04:02 AM
not to get into a war about realism.. ive seen enough of those fights already http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ... its just that you always hear in documentries / books about the hitting power of the 108.. being able to bring down a bomber in a few hits and a fighter in one.

but ill give the 103 a go tonight !



"id buy that for a dollar"

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 04:15 AM
the warhead is the same you just get higher velocity therfor better trajectory......but the cannon itself is much heavier.

U.S INFANTRY 84-91

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 04:19 AM
I read a quate from adolf galland who said that the spitfire and hurricane were better planes to shoot with. he compared the eight .303 machine guns on the hurricane and spitfire to the equivlant of shooting with a shot gun, because of its fire dispersive rang. The me-109 was the equivalant of a rifle with only two 20mm cannon and less ammo.

it is also obvious that a 7.62 mm round will not do much by itself compared to a 20 mm round. but they are still powerful enough to do damage on oil pumps and radiators which will eventualy bring down an aircraft.