PDA

View Full Version : Do all heavies need a new kit?



Velentix
08-23-2018, 09:43 PM
Is it just me or are all the heavies pointless now. Except the conq obviously, but he plays more like an assassin on roids than a heavy.

David_gorda
08-23-2018, 09:47 PM
Warlord is ok in both 1vs1 and 4vs4 but kit is kinda boring. Shugoki is in more need of rework and also lawbringer.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
08-23-2018, 10:24 PM
All heavies need a gb with HA to counter light spam

Neon_WiDoW
08-23-2018, 10:26 PM
Shugoki just became meme tier again with the new heavy being shown.

Seriously it looks like that guy is what shugoki should have been. But they decided to just make a new character out of it.

Now shugoki players have to wait even longer for a rework. And I cant imagine that his rework will be anywhere near as good as this guy.

dinosaurlicker
08-23-2018, 11:01 PM
Shugoki just became meme tier again with the new heavy being shown.

Seriously it looks like that guy is what shugoki should have been. But they decided to just make a new character out of it.

Now shugoki players have to wait even longer for a rework. And I cant imagine that his rework will be anywhere near as good as this guy.

Tbh they just need to get rid of the damage boost on himself when he has no super armor and then make his chained heavies unblockable, but with this new **** theyíll be almost the same hero

AzureSky.
08-23-2018, 11:11 PM
the problem is that the game has no real grabs, they should implement command grabs that make damage, stamina damage or a mix of both, they can have hyper armor and be slow so people can get away from them.

dinosaurlicker
08-23-2018, 11:31 PM
the problem is that the game has no real grabs, they should implement command grabs that make damage, stamina damage or a mix of both, they can have hyper armor and be slow so people can get away from them.

I like the idea of command grabs. From what Iíve seen, more of them are being implimented in marching fire, but Iíd like to see Heavies in general have multiple command grabs.

Changes Iíd like to see for Heavies:

Conqueror and LB switch classes, Conq is a Vanguard and Heavy HYBRID while LB is the heavy. It should have always been this way. LB is slower, has more health, has harder hits, and has a psuedo command grab in the long arm flip thing. Conq should be a hybrid as he has the versatility of a vanguard but the defense of a heavy. Conq is similar to Valk rn tbh with low damage and soft feints into unblockables.

I havenít really played too much lb recently, but I think he could use some changes to make his long arm pseudo command grab more viable so he can play around it. On top of this, give him more command grabs. All of his executions show him effortlessly lifting enemies up and whatnot, so more command grabs plz.

Warlord should get a command grab similar to the Warlord boss in the campaign. In fact, IDK why they didnít make Warlord the same as the campaign boss in the first place.

Shugoki should get some more unblockable heavies, and no damage boost on himself. And the recovery after missing a DE should be much shorter, but still punishable.

TSCDescon
08-23-2018, 11:41 PM
Shugoki uses his head more than his grab attacks and weapon... just saying.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
08-24-2018, 01:49 AM
Shug doesn't use his gb because a light spam beats gb in the rock paper Scissors game. If you gave heavies gb with active HA it would change the formula and make shugoki god tier.
What I mean to say is that shugoki stays as he is now but gets active HA on his GB as a buff to his kit. Now shug can beat light spam, demonball to replenish his passive HA and demon embrase at will provided he is near a wall. He would be a massive tank. Nearly unbeatable.

DefiledDragon
08-24-2018, 02:05 AM
Shug doesn't use his gb because a light spam beats gb in the rock paper Scissors game. If you gave heavies gb with active HA it would change the formula and make shugoki god tier.
What I mean to say is that shugoki stays as he is now but gets active HA on his GB as a buff to his kit. Now shug can beat light spam, demonball to replenish his passive HA and demon embrase at will provided he is near a wall. He would be a massive tank.

He would be OP with a build like that. All he would need to do to win every fight is stand next to a wall.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
08-24-2018, 02:19 AM
He would be OP with a build like that. All he would need to do to win every fight is stand next to a wall.
He would, but someone has to be at the top. He is a gate keeper tank... At least the build would make sense.
He literally can't catch people so if in dominion and shug is near a wall the enemy has the option of fleaing or waiting for backup. Shug can't kill someone who won't fight him so the build makes sense.
And to be fair it is no more op then what berserker was given on his rework.

DefiledDragon
08-24-2018, 02:45 AM
He would, but someone has to be at the top. He is a gate keeper tank... At least the build would make sense.
He literally can't catch people so if in dominion and shug is near a wall the enemy has the option of fleaing or waiting for backup. Shug can't kill someone who won't fight him so the build makes sense.
And to be fair it is no more op then what berserker was given on his rework.

Hmmm, no, nobody should be at the top. Ideally every char should be at the same level with nobody having a clear advantage over anybody else. A slight advantage due to a difference in fighting styles, sure, but not a clear advantage as that would be.

iadvisoryi
08-24-2018, 02:59 AM
Grab meta was the worst yet and armor right now is a big advantage, putting that on a command grab would need hard balancing. Considering the grabs now track dashes for a mile. Put armor on that? Imagine 4v4's, and you'd be able to do that busted grab when someone would be aggressing. No. Not going back to some sort of twisted grab meta.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
08-24-2018, 03:20 AM
Hmmm, no, nobody should be at the top. Ideally every char should be at the same level with nobody having a clear advantage over anybody else. A slight advantage due to a difference in fighting styles, sure, but not a clear advantage as that would be.

For honor isn't a perfect utopia of balance and there are clear distinctions between ranks. If shaman is their base line they have over shot with berserker as he has a distinct advantage.
light attack spam in itself, for fast light characters, is a clear advantage so if shugoki had his own clear advantage it would not unbalance the game any more than it is now only teter the degree of unbalance already prevalent in the game to the heavies.
Also since there are less heavies one could make the argument that it did infact balance the game further since fewer assasins have a clear advantage now considering their present prevalence in the game.
In addition this gb active HA would cause less meta 🐢 on behalf of the heavies which, apparently, is what the devs want.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
08-24-2018, 03:55 AM
Grab meta was the worst yet and armor right now is a big advantage, putting that on a command grab would need hard balancing. Considering the grabs now track dashes for a mile. Put armor on that? Imagine 4v4's, and you'd be able to do that busted grab when someone would be aggressing. No. Not going back to some sort of twisted grab meta.

So it's OK for people to light spam a heavy but it's not OK for a heavy to gb spam back at them? How is that not broken already? A heavy should be able to power through spam to reset the fight... That would be balance.
What if they got ride of demons embrace on shugoki to compensate so shug could only do a demon ball. What if they added more mix-up to his kit to compensate for getting rid of Oni charge and demons embrace? What if he didn't have a penalty when HA goes down? That would create a tank without creating a god.

DefiledDragon
08-24-2018, 04:10 AM
For honor isn't a perfect utopia of balance and there are clear distinctions between ranks. If shaman is their base line they have over shot with berserker as he has a distinct advantage.
light attack spam in itself, for fast light characters, is a clear advantage so if shugoki had his own clear advantage it would not unbalance the game any more than it is now only teter the degree of unbalance already prevalent in the game to the heavies.
Also since there are less heavies one could make the argument that it did infact balance the game further since fewer assasins have a clear advantage now considering their present prevalence in the game.
In addition this gb active HA would cause less meta �� on behalf of the heavies which, apparently, is what the devs want.

It's not a clear advantage though because it's preventable on prediction or reaction. Hyperarmor on guardbreak is insane, especially on a character that can one shot you if they get a wall splat. No, just no.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
08-24-2018, 04:24 AM
It's not a clear advantage though because it's preventable on prediction or reaction. Hyperarmor on guardbreak is insane, especially on a character that can one shot you if they get a wall splat. No, just no.
A person can still counter gb.

DefiledDragon
08-24-2018, 04:28 AM
A person can still counter gb.

Not if they're in the middle of an attack they can't, which is exactly when you would throw a GB if you knew you had hyperarmor while doing it. It would break the character completely. They throw an attack, you get a free wall splat/ledge/spike/side heavy.

iadvisoryi
08-24-2018, 04:58 AM
So it's OK for people to light spam a heavy but it's not OK for a heavy to gb spam back at them? How is that not broken already? A heavy should be able to power through spam to reset the fight... That would be balance.
What if they got ride of demons embrace on shugoki to compensate so shug could only do a demon ball. What if they added more mix-up to his kit to compensate for getting rid of Oni charge and demons embrace? What if he didn't have a penalty when HA goes down? That would create a tank without creating a god.

The only light spamming characters that can do it almost without punish right now are orochi, valkarie, shaman in general not even just light spam. I understand maining a heavy right now isn't the best meta, but the way you want them are aggressive attackers instead of thought out CA/defenders. If a grab has armor for example gokis passive, but on a specific command grab, for all or some heavys, that would be dumb broke. You can get grabbed out of attacking if you have armor. We need to look for buffs towards the defenders that aren't gonna make them just fatter, tank, assassin's. But honestly I only think warlord, and goki are in a bad dual state. I think valks lights and sweep damage are too much, o think orochis light chain is too much, I think wardens dash is too fast, kensei damage is too much, and shaman is just a 10x better peacekeeper, shaman needs some of her faints taken away since she can shove and grab into eating you if she mix bleeds you.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
08-24-2018, 05:49 AM
Not if they're in the middle of an attack they can't, which is exactly when you would throw a GB if you knew you had hyperarmor while doing it. It would break the character completely. They throw an attack, you get a free wall splat/ledge/spike/side heavy.

Shug would get a demon ball out of it to reset. Shug would control the battle and the counter attrackers would have to actually counter attack to get damage. Yes if they try to spam they would get punished. Seems fair to me. What your saying is that shug would needed to be debuffes in other categories and I agree his passive could take longer to reset for example aswell.
My point is that if all heavies had a ha/gb that resets the battle no one could light spam them.

DefiledDragon
08-24-2018, 10:03 AM
Shug would get a demon ball out of it to reset. Shug would control the battle and the counter attrackers would have to actually counter attack to get damage. Yes if they try to spam they would get punished. Seems fair to me. What your saying is that shug would needed to be debuffes in other categories and I agree his passive could take longer to reset for example aswell.
My point is that if all heavies had a ha/gb that resets the battle no one could light spam them.

GB doesn't reset the battle though. GB offers up free damage and in the case of Shug, if a wall is nearby and he's low on health, a free instakill. It's way to OP. All this debate is moot anyway as the devs aren't going to do that.

Armosias
08-24-2018, 11:40 AM
Please give my LB hyperarmor on GB you're gonna eat those sweet walls

Illyrian_King
08-24-2018, 11:46 AM
Is it just me or are all the heavies pointless now. Except the conq obviously, but he plays more like an assassin on roids than a heavy.

After watching yesterday's stream with Jiang Jun ... definitely.

He is a beast, and other heavies (except Conq) are trash.

The_B0G_
08-24-2018, 05:23 PM
The heavy and heavy hybrids should all be hard hitters with HA on their heavy attacks at the very least, after watching Jiang Jun, no heavy currently in game is even close to that and once Conqs SB gets nerfed, he won't be much better off.

They are going to have to roll out some pretty impressive reworks for Shugo, Warlord and LB to be able to contend with that.

Helnekromancer
08-24-2018, 06:45 PM
After watching JJ on the Warrior's Den, yes. All the Heavies besides Conqueror needs a rework.

You know a Hero suck, when 3-4 people on a team all pick Warlord and get absolutely crushed. He is very predictable, his headbutt is slow, and the only move that is good on him is his zone.

That Viking Warlord AI Boss has a better kit with Shield Uppercuts and a combo similar to Centurion's in which he is stabbing a grounded target.
Why isn't that on the base Warlord?

Shugoki, is a meme, he has 3 moves, headbutts, demon's embrace and charged heavies. everything else in his kit is crap. Shugoki has way faster and unique animations when he fights minions, punching them 5 feet back, kicking his kanabo off the ground, using his Kanabo to push minions back. Like why can't he do this to actual players?

When I first started playing this game I wanted to play the tanks, because in MMO's and MOBA's I was the Tank guy but in this game they are all bad to play. But a year later they come out with a Heavy that can fight without turtling, regains stamina, soft feints into unblockable, and feats to support his teammates.

dinosaurlicker
08-24-2018, 10:53 PM
After watching JJ on the Warrior's Den, yes. All the Heavies besides Conqueror needs a rework.

You know a Hero suck, when 3-4 people on a team all pick Warlord and get absolutely crushed. He is very predictable, his headbutt is slow, and the only move that is good on him is his zone.

That Viking Warlord AI Boss has a better kit with Shield Uppercuts and a combo similar to Centurion's in which he is stabbing a grounded target.
Why isn't that on the base Warlord?

Shugoki, is a meme, he has 3 moves, headbutts, demon's embrace and charged heavies. everything else in his kit is crap. Shugoki has way faster and unique animations when he fights minions, punching them 5 feet back, kicking his kanabo off the ground, using his Kanabo to push minions back. Like why can't he do this to actual players?

When I first started playing this game I wanted to play the tanks, because in MMO's and MOBA's I was the Tank guy but in this game they are all bad to play. But a year later they come out with a Heavy that can fight without turtling, regains stamina, soft feints into unblockable, and feats to support his teammates.


A year and a half later*

The_B0G_
08-24-2018, 11:16 PM
After watching JJ on the Warrior's Den, yes. All the Heavies besides Conqueror needs a rework.

You know a Hero suck, when 3-4 people on a team all pick Warlord and get absolutely crushed. He is very predictable, his headbutt is slow, and the only move that is good on him is his zone.

That Viking Warlord AI Boss has a better kit with Shield Uppercuts and a combo similar to Centurion's in which he is stabbing a grounded target.
Why isn't that on the base Warlord?

Shugoki, is a meme, he has 3 moves, headbutts, demon's embrace and charged heavies. everything else in his kit is crap. Shugoki has way faster and unique animations when he fights minions, punching them 5 feet back, kicking his kanabo off the ground, using his Kanabo to push minions back. Like why can't he do this to actual players?

When I first started playing this game I wanted to play the tanks, because in MMO's and MOBA's I was the Tank guy but in this game they are all bad to play. But a year later they come out with a Heavy that can fight without turtling, regains stamina, soft feints into unblockable, and feats to support his teammates.

Warlord isn't too bad right now, definitely not bottom top 3, but he does need a rework for sure, you have to put in twice the effort to get a kill on top tier characters, I laughed when you brought up the 4 warlord team getting wrecked because I've done it before loll

Just because 4 warlords isn't a good group doesn't mean all weak characters are the same. I fought against 4 LBs once, at the end of the game it felt like the movie We Were Soldiers when Mel Gibson called in Broken Arrow on the radio lol so 4 weak characters doesn't automatically make them a bad 4 man team.