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Vakris_One
08-17-2018, 03:01 PM
https://youtu.be/44wauwso-M8

Mad props to Illest Truth. This is without a doubt the best analysis and breakdown of For Honor's most fundamental issue and more people need to hear it, especially the developers. It's a fantastically simple guide on how to fundamentally improve For Honor.

Thanks again to Illest Truth for putting this out there.

Halvtand
08-17-2018, 04:15 PM
I can only agree with Illest truth in this.
I play Conq a lot, but I don't rely on sb as much as other Conqs I've faced (because they fuel revenge like crazy). I do see the problem with being able to bypass another hero's kit like this and after trying out warden for a bit yesterday I can only say that he is even worse, getting a top heavy on a full charge. That threat is huge to the enemy. And it is the easiest thing in the world to set up for a warden.

Justicator
08-17-2018, 06:05 PM
As a Warden main who isn't really great at parrying, I have to agree to what was stated in this video. I know I have personally won against better players recently simply because they were playing a hero that I could block and wait for my shoulder bash-guarenteed damage. But on the other side of the spectrum, you have players that can literally parry anything. Anything feinted, soft feinted, they parry it. I play against such players almost all the time in ranked (I have no idea why the heck am I placed to fight against players of such skill, but whatever), and against those guys, you can't really do anything except shoulder bash, because you will get parried.

Because of this, I feel that, not only that chip damage should be greatly increased as stated in the video (and for all those that say chip damage will be too much in 4v4, that can easily be balanced, for each additional player attacking a target the chip damage that everyone makes is reduced by a percentage; boom problem solved), but parrying, blocking and deflecting should be changed IN THEIR CORE! Blocking should not stop chains of light attacks, Parrying should be a dedicated button that if you fail leaves you in a vulnerable state (and not like it is now, you fail, but let the heavy go and then deal a ton of damage to the attacker who fainted into GB but was a millisecond too slow with the GB). Canceling your parry attempt and resting the fight to neutral makes it so that only the super fast characters and the ones who have access to soft feinting can truly benefit from feinting. And deflects should have the same unique input as parrying does (assassin should not be able to parry attacks) and be the dedicated form of defense (alongside dodge attacks) that assassins have. The input should be the same as parry (slightly easier than it is now for deflecting) but it should be weaker, dealing less damage. Assassins should focus on offense and not defense.

Would it not be better if all the capabilities of each "class" of heroes were awarded a numerical representation, so that you know how good a specific class is at something? Let's say you have 3 main attributes; offense, defense and utility, and the score between those would always have to be 3.

For example:
Assassins would have Offense 3, defense 0 and utility 0
Vanguards would have Offense 1, defense 1 and utility 1
Hybrids would have a varying distribution, depending on what "classes" they combined
and Heavies would have Offense 0, defense 3 and utility 0

Or you could distribute this specifically on heroes, so a PK would have one distribution (but because she is an assassin you would want to have more in offense), a warden would have a different one etc.

But now, because everyone has access to all forms of defense, with ASSASSINS having an extra defensive option; deflect (and no, I do not believe that reflex guard compensates anything), you have a big problem, and the recent reworks are really showing it. Just look at the conqueror; he seems more like an assassin than a heavy.
This all is just my opinion, I think FH is not in a bad state, but I'm not too sure I really like where it is heading. It is clear that no one in UBI expected that players will adapt so much and be able to parry almost anything, but I think that their current mindset and what they are doing to combat turtling is pushing the game in a wrong direction. That's just my 2 cents tho...

JaerTheBear
08-17-2018, 06:41 PM
Im doin an agree

HazelrahFirefly
08-17-2018, 07:07 PM
Big fan of Illest Truth and watched the vid. He's not wrong at all, about defense being too reliable particularly. I wish blocking would degrade if used too frequently, like the bubble of a shield in Smash. It would practically erase turtling.

UbiJurassic
08-17-2018, 07:22 PM
Thanks for sharing along the video Vakris! I'll certainly take a look at it and share the feedback with the rest of the team.

CandleInTheDark
08-17-2018, 07:25 PM
Parrying should be a dedicated button that if you fail leaves you in a vulnerable state

Not discounting the rest of your post, you have good ideas in general, but the problem here is where, on a standard control pad (ie not elite or scuff with extra buttons) do you put this button? On mouse and keyboard this wouldn't be an issue but every button on a console pad is in use and we all know how much problem zone gives some people do two buttons might well also be out.

Not saying it is a bad idea, it isn't, I just don't know how it would work logistically.

Justicator
08-17-2018, 08:15 PM
Not discounting the rest of your post, you have good ideas in general, but the problem here is where, on a standard control pad (ie not elite or scuff with extra buttons) do you put this button? On mouse and keyboard this wouldn't be an issue but every button on a console pad is in use and we all know how much problem zone gives some people do two buttons might well also be out.

Not saying it is a bad idea, it isn't, I just don't know how it would work logistically.

I play with kb&m so I have no idea :) Maybe someone who plays with a joystick could pitch in? Are there any redundant buttons?

AzureSky.
08-17-2018, 08:28 PM
Eh in other words just increasing chip damage (still a good idea) but the core of the problems in this game is that is really simple, i was a top ranker in my region (played mostly duels and brawls) when they made the famous tourney with that guy spamming bugs with nobushi and other kind of guys doing the same with other chars (funny enough most of the top rankers of each regions used to abuse specific bugs of characters, or broken ones like PK in that time)

My answer is that it needs a Frame system like any other fighting game, otherwise the only thing that is going to change in the game would be what's the FOTM hero (based on nerfs/buffs) but is not going to fix the core issue of the game.

Another strong point is that Console and Pc are just too different, maybe in console some characters are viable, but raider or shugoki for example, in PC their only use are 4vs4 modes, nothing else.

Halvtand
08-17-2018, 08:36 PM
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/for-honor/images/2/2c/For_Honor_controller_map1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20160728215541
L1 is used for quick chat. So that is a big nope. We already have this issue with ZA which requires a double input. On kb&m a macro can do this, but for us poor controller peasats we're sadly out of room.

Justicator
08-17-2018, 08:50 PM
Then we have an even bigger issue; if the logistic of the game stand in the way of it getting better and more balanced, we are truly doomed :(

SaschoS
08-17-2018, 10:32 PM
**** ups from season 2 implementing new heroes broke the game

Neon_WiDoW
08-17-2018, 10:56 PM
This has been an issue for awhile now. There needs to be a HARD punish for bashes. Right now there isnt. You can dodge it but when every bash is feint-able into a GB then wheres the risk? Bashes dont deplete nearly enough stamina in my opinion. If someone can spam 6 bashes in a row and still have stamina to follow up then somethings wrong here. But I really doubt that ubi will man up and fix bashes due to them be the only good part in these S tier kits. As soon as they nerf the bashes they will fall out of that tier.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
08-18-2018, 01:47 AM
Why not the Y button on Xbox. It's not actually in use during a battle.

Halvtand
08-18-2018, 02:13 AM
Why not the Y button on Xbox. It's not actually in use during a battle.
Except for emotes you mean?

Knight_Raime
08-18-2018, 09:58 AM
Can someone give me a summarized TLDW of the video?

Justicator
08-18-2018, 10:03 AM
Can someone give me a summarized TLDW of the video?

Basically, he thinks that chip damage should be increased to something like 30% and that having unblockables (he primarily uses the reworked warden as an example, but mentions conq as well), that allow you to just block attacks and wait for the perfect bash to deal damage allows a player (that plays such heroes) to never even have to attempt to parry, thus having the best of both worlds; the ability to play completely safe while still having a way to safely deal damage.

Knight_Raime
08-18-2018, 10:09 AM
Basically, he thinks that chip damage should be increased to something like 30% and that having unblockables (he primarily uses the reworked warden as an example, but mentions conq as well), that allow you to just block attacks and wait for the perfect bash to deal damage allows a player (that plays such heroes) to never even have to attempt to parry, thus having the best of both worlds; the ability to play completely safe while still having a way to safely deal damage.

Chip damage increase doesn't really matter when chip doesn't kill. Not that i'm against increasing it. But just saying it's a suggestion that's said a lot but people don't really get why it wouldn't do much. I don't understand the rest of what you said. I'll check back later though. it's 4am and I need sleep. gnight

Justicator
08-18-2018, 10:12 AM
Why not the Y button on Xbox. It's not actually in use during a battle.

Except for emotes you mean?

I'd be perfectly fine with them eliminating combat emotes and while you are locked to a target to replace that button with a dedicated parry. Heck, do it for the PC as well; the same button that emotes while out of lock would be used as a dedicated parry. Or a dedicated deflect in the case of assassins. I think that losing combat emotes would be worth it. Or maybe there is a similar situation like this were a button is used for something but while locked it could be replaced? Quickchat while locked on could be used for this?

Neon_WiDoW
08-18-2018, 03:44 PM
Chip damage increase doesn't really matter when chip doesn't kill. Not that i'm against increasing it. But just saying it's a suggestion that's said a lot but people don't really get why it wouldn't do much. I don't understand the rest of what you said. I'll check back later though. it's 4am and I need sleep. gnight

Basically he said to increase chip damage to the point where it would do at least a light attacks worth of damage. Witch would help against people who just block heavies.

Vakris_One
08-19-2018, 01:09 PM
Thanks for sharing along the video Vakris! I'll certainly take a look at it and share the feedback with the rest of the team.
Thank you Jurassic. That would be great!


Chip damage increase doesn't really matter when chip doesn't kill. Not that i'm against increasing it. But just saying it's a suggestion that's said a lot but people don't really get why it wouldn't do much. I don't understand the rest of what you said. I'll check back later though. it's 4am and I need sleep. gnight
It would fix the problem of defense being too safe as Illest Truth explains it in his video. He suggests making chip damage something like 30% which would put a blocked heavy attack just a few numbers shy of a light attack hit. His main premise is that eventually you will have to start actually countering these attacks rather than just blocking them. And when you start trying to counter it you open yourself up to making a mistake because you are now being a more active participant in the fight.

Chip damage is a tool the developers haven't really payed attention to but it is actually super important. The optimal form of defense right now is one of blocking - which requires no real skill ceiling to be optimally good at. What Illest Truth explains is that if we turn/force the optimal form of defense to ultimately be about countering - which has a splendid and rewarding skill ceiling - then the game will be better for it.

The other point he goes into is how safe the Conq and the Warden's bashes are compared to characters that don't have those types of bashes. That Warden and Conq have easier access to something that can guarrantee damage on a hit while the majority of the roster only have a very paltry and non threatening chip damage at their disposal. That in essence this type of bash is a great defensive tool while at the same time being a great attacking tool as well (in particular Warden's bash because he risks almost nothing while getting a consistent reaction out of his opponent). You'll have to watch his video though if you want to hear his full explanation and how it ties into chip damage as I'm not really doing it justice.

As for chip damage killing, that's a discussion for another time when we actually have significant chip damage in the game and can better gauge how that affects the game.

We.the.North
08-19-2018, 04:33 PM
The problem and what is currently making me take a looooong break from For Honor is how rewarding defensive gameplay is.

Parrying leads to garanteed damage.
Dodging some attacks leads to a garanteed guardbreak which leads to garanteed damage.

Defensive move should not reward damage. You'll always have a boring game to watch and play as long as you "double reward" defensive player with damage mitigation and damage done.

Knight_Raime
08-19-2018, 04:58 PM
Thank you Jurassic. That would be great!


It would fix the problem of defense being too safe as Illest Truth explains it in his video. He suggests making chip damage something like 30% which would put a blocked heavy attack just a few numbers shy of a light attack hit. His main premise is that eventually you will have to start actually countering these attacks rather than just blocking them. And when you start trying to counter it you open yourself up to making a mistake because you are now being a more active participant in the fight.

Chip damage is a tool the developers haven't really payed attention to but it is actually super important. The optimal form of defense right now is one of blocking - which requires no real skill ceiling to be optimally good at. What Illest Truth explains is that if we turn/force the optimal form of defense to ultimately be about countering - which has a splendid and rewarding skill ceiling - then the game will be better for it.

The other point he goes into is how safe the Conq and the Warden's bashes are compared to characters that don't have those types of bashes. That Warden and Conq have easier access to something that can guarrantee damage on a hit while the majority of the roster only have a very paltry and non threatening chip damage at their disposal. That in essence this type of bash is a great defensive tool while at the same time being a great attacking tool as well (in particular Warden's bash because he risks almost nothing while getting a consistent reaction out of his opponent). You'll have to watch his video though if you want to hear his full explanation and how it ties into chip damage as I'm not really doing it justice.

As for chip damage killing, that's a discussion for another time when we actually have significant chip damage in the game and can better gauge how that affects the game.

I don't enjoy this particular content creator but I watched it based on your suggestion. His general outline is solid in terms of what the problem is and why it is that way. But unless i'm understanding wrong it sounds like he's either directly stating or implying that by increasing chip damage it's going to force heros who have a solid way in via a good bash to do less blocking and to do more countering. If that's the case i'm going to have to disagree.

First the warden is already countering when he chooses to feint his bash and react to something you choose to do. While both charged and uncharged bashes are good against a good opponent you're not going to be able to get away with it. Most players will attempt to interrupt with some kind of attack. This forces warden to feint and react. So to tie him up in the same boat as Conq imo is wrong.

Second these people with safe methods in for damage wouldn't be forced to counter. Chip won't kill them (barring pk) and because they have a way in via a good bash of some kind they just will continue to use that. increasing chip would make the heros who don't have a solid way in attempt to do more however. But even then increasing chip wouldn't be the only thing that needs to be done. imo in order to address the "defensive meta" scraps that remain we need to:

~Have varied MS increments.
~all in combo attacks be faster.
~Every hero is granted reflex guard sans shield heros. (all static guard heros besides them will get standard reflex guard decay and all assassins will get shinobi's decay.)
~Opening attacks no longer are stopped for combo potential if blocked.
~chip damage increased to both light and heavy attacks.
~Parrying an attack actually costs the parrier stamina.
~Dodge into unlock roll fixed.
~Static guard bug fixed.

Sneakly20
08-19-2018, 05:14 PM
The problem and what is currently making me take a looooong break from For Honor is how rewarding defensive gameplay is.

Parrying leads to garanteed damage.
Dodging some attacks leads to a garanteed guardbreak which leads to garanteed damage.

Defensive move should not reward damage. You'll always have a boring game to watch and play as long as you "double reward" defensive player with damage mitigation and damage done.

The problem with those is the fundamentals of for honor.

Parry is there to take a risk to open your opponent up for damage. This is generally the way to go to get damage in without repercussions. Because of you managed to parry a move and still get potentially punished for it then it would only drain stamina and fights would last longer.

Dodging then attacking should lead to lights or even heavies if you correctly read and predict. Maybe not GB worthy but again we have to see.

GB Iím indifferent on. It leads to damage if they werenít prepared for it which speeds up the fight and leads to mix ups.

Again these pillars have to change if we want to see a difference.

DefiledDragon
08-19-2018, 06:38 PM
The problem and what is currently making me take a looooong break from For Honor is how rewarding defensive gameplay is.

Parrying leads to garanteed damage.
Dodging some attacks leads to a garanteed guardbreak which leads to garanteed damage.

Defensive move should not reward damage. You'll always have a boring game to watch and play as long as you "double reward" defensive player with damage mitigation and damage done.

Trouble is, if you didn't get guaranteed damage from a parry, you would have no incentive to parry anything other than unblockables, which would render hard feints and some soft feints useless.

DefiledDragon
08-19-2018, 06:39 PM
~Have varied MS increments.
~all in combo attacks be faster.
~Every hero is granted reflex guard sans shield heros. (all static guard heros besides them will get standard reflex guard decay and all assassins will get shinobi's decay.)
~Opening attacks no longer are stopped for combo potential if blocked.
~chip damage increased to both light and heavy attacks.
~Parrying an attack actually costs the parrier stamina.
~Dodge into unlock roll fixed.
~Static guard bug fixed.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6OCizr9MwI

Justicator
08-19-2018, 08:09 PM
~Have varied MS increments.
~all in combo attacks be faster.
~Every hero is granted reflex guard sans shield heros. (all static guard heros besides them will get standard reflex guard decay and all assassins will get shinobi's decay.)
~Opening attacks no longer are stopped for combo potential if blocked.
~chip damage increased to both light and heavy attacks.
~Parrying an attack actually costs the parrier stamina.
~Dodge into unlock roll fixed.
~Static guard bug fixed.

This coupled with some of my ideas would really change the game for the better, IMO. Too bad the devs will probably not be taking this route, as they are too busy with reworking the old cast and bringing in a whole different faction, or maybe even too afraid to change the core concepts. I would really love to be wrong on this one, tho...

We.the.North
08-19-2018, 11:10 PM
Trouble is, if you didn't get guaranteed damage from a parry, you would have no incentive to parry anything other than unblockables, which would render hard feints and some soft feints useless.

Without garanteed damage from defensive playstyle, you'll see much more aggressive playstyle from players. Then, parry stamina drain would shorten the offensive momentum window and might even make the halt longer if you manage to put your opponent into exhaustion state.

No guaranteed damage on defensive playstyle would lead to a massive back and forth of "offensive momentum" and would lead to a much more interesting gameplay full of mix ups.

It's one simple fact that's killing for Honor :

- Everyone is playing turtle revenge build. Revenge is killing this game. Buffing revenge was NOT the solution to deathball, poor map design and objective design is creating deathballs.

I'm sick of "hoping" for this game to become as great as I wanted it to be. After 1.5 years of release, Dev have no clue what they are doing. (1.5 year to buff valkyrie. They really have no clue what they're doing.)

DefiledDragon
08-20-2018, 12:34 AM
Without garanteed damage from defensive playstyle, you'll see much more aggressive playstyle from players. Then, parry stamina drain would shorten the offensive momentum window and might even make the halt longer if you manage to put your opponent into exhaustion state.

No guaranteed damage on defensive playstyle would lead to a massive back and forth of "offensive momentum" and would lead to a much more interesting gameplay full of mix ups.

It's one simple fact that's killing for Honor :

- Everyone is playing turtle revenge build. Revenge is killing this game. Buffing revenge was NOT the solution to deathball, poor map design and objective design is creating deathballs.

I'm sick of "hoping" for this game to become as great as I wanted it to be. After 1.5 years of release, Dev have no clue what they are doing. (1.5 year to buff valkyrie. They really have no clue what they're doing.)

The real problem that For Honor has in my opinion is that everything can be countered without too much difficulty. If Guardbreaks were guaranteed, but you could only throw one if your attacks are being continually blocked or parried by your opponent, so a bit like the revenge meter but in reverse, it would encourage more agressive play. In other fighting games, we have throws to break turtles. In some, they can be countered, but the window for doing so is tiny. In For Honor, guard breaks feel like they're supposed to be other fighting games throws, but they're far too easily countered to be truly effective but far too spammable to be made too effective. They need to find a balance in my opinion. If your opponent knows that every time he blocks an attack he's increasing the chances of you landing guaranteed damage after the GB, he might be less inclined to turtle, especially if the GB guaranteed a top heavy, or a throw to the ground.

We.the.North
08-20-2018, 12:47 AM
It's been 1.5 years since release. Stop having hope this game will change.

Seriously, changes have been made, none that matters in the long run. The Dev's vision isn't the player's vision, that's the problem with making games for profit vs making games for fun.

DefiledDragon
08-20-2018, 12:53 AM
It's been 1.5 years since release. Stop having hope this game will change.

Seriously, changes have been made, none that matters in the long run. The Dev's vision isn't the player's vision, that's the problem with making games for profit vs making games for fun.

Sadly, I think you're right in that the devs vision doesn't seem to be aligned with the players wishes. Having said that, if they want For Honor to have any kind of serious recognition and presence in the competitive circuit they're going to have to do something.