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View Full Version : Yay, an indirect shinobi nerf



PepsiBeastin
08-11-2018, 02:01 AM
Previously you could dodge warden's shoulder bash with a backflip (one of the only attacks you could dodge with it without being tracked), but now his shoulder bash just keeps going forward and hits you at the end of the backflip. While the armor of the flip (which should have dodge frames, not damn hyperarmor) keeps you from being stunned, you're still unable to block and get hit with his followup lights, neither a ranged heavy nor a ranged guardbreak after the backflip is fast enough to hit. There's an audible *thunk* of warden's shoulder bash hitting, when previously it would stop just short of you allowing it to be punished. Honestly it baffles me how this move isn't treated like nobushi's hidden stance, it's literally supposed to create space and avoid attacks. Instead, it just gives free damage to anyone with any kind of tracking. Also, warden can use the new dash heavy on reaction to a shinobi backflip for free damage...
https://i.gyazo.com/4879de9f032a05ea4ab18d530b477d80.gif
https://i.gyazo.com/3e2a1b7fb6fdcbf1d59752ec5e3c0aab.gif

Knight_Raime
08-11-2018, 02:44 AM
1st clip guy dodged your kick and immediately SBed. you chose to still attack after seeing this. So on reaction you messed up. Or he predicted the back flip. Thus he gets a reword for guessing right.
Kick whiff into back flip forces an unfavorable situation for most of the cast. The fact that one hero can consistently punish you isn't the end of the world.
Second clip you never once moved your guard to top. You 100% deserved to eat that heavy.

You should practice in the arena to learn how to respond to the new warden instead of QQing about everything with the new warden.

PepsiBeastin
08-11-2018, 02:46 AM
Raime, the man who finds every excuse not to discuss the present issues everyone.

Knight_Raime
08-11-2018, 02:49 AM
Raime, the man who finds every excuse not to discuss the present issues everyone.

These are not excuses. They're critics pointing out specifically what happened. Your aim with the clips is to show how it's busted yes?
I'm explaining why these clips are not proof.

DefiledDragon
08-11-2018, 03:29 AM
Raime, the man who finds every excuse not to discuss the present issues everyone.

Standing there with your guard down while the guy plants his sword in your head doesn't prove anything other than you were caught with your guard down. All of Warden's fastest attacks come from the top. If you're facing him and your guard isn't at top, especially if he's at that kind of range, you're basically begging him to throw it.

NHLGoldenKnight
08-11-2018, 04:18 AM
Instead of constantly being critical about every topic where someone is complaining against something, why just not focus on what is in front of you, second video specifically?

It is not important if op did block correctly or not, but the main point is how much distance did Warden close on him. He barely moved his legs yet he literally teleported 10 yards forward. It looks ridiculous and it is ridiculous.

Look at the video again and tell me how that forward dash looks normal?

MarshalMoriarty
08-11-2018, 04:37 AM
Exactly. Its that crazy range that's the problem - you might as well go ahead and give him a horse to charge about on.

DefiledDragon
08-11-2018, 04:46 AM
Instead of constantly being critical about every topic where someone is complaining against something, why just not focus on what is in front of you, second video specifically?

It is not important if op did block correctly or not, but the main point is how much distance did Warden close on him. He barely moved his legs yet he literally teleported 10 yards forward. It looks ridiculous and it is ridiculous.

Look at the video again and tell me how that forward dash looks normal?

Armored roller blades. All the rage in the 1200's.

Devils-_-legacy
08-11-2018, 06:30 AM
Knight lol
1st clip is just getting used to his new move set it's a shame you can't bait with him tho he was one of the few it worked on but the second the tracking needs to be toned down a tad he teleported to you the distant Shug can run lol

Knight_Raime
08-11-2018, 06:52 AM
Instead of constantly being critical about every topic where someone is complaining against something, why just not focus on what is in front of you, second video specifically?

It is not important if op did block correctly or not, but the main point is how much distance did Warden close on him. He barely moved his legs yet he literally teleported 10 yards forward. It looks ridiculous and it is ridiculous.

Look at the video again and tell me how that forward dash looks normal?

It looks hella telegraphed to me. And it's a chase down move. Shaman's forward dodge heavies are capable of the same thing.
If that is seriously too fast and too hard to tell for people it's no wonder there the kind of complaints I see. I'm not even diamond rank. I'm gold 4. Doing the raw dash heavy? Gets parried every single time. Let's also just ignore the fact that OP whiffed a move in duel on purpose. That gets people punished at my level.


Knight lol
1st clip is just getting used to his new move set it's a shame you can't bait with him tho he was one of the few it worked on but the second the tracking needs to be toned down a tad he teleported to you the distant Shug can run lol

Against a decent player Shinobi can't bait anyone. Because he's got nothing to force them to attempt to attack. So he can just whiff and back flip all he wants. Those heros who have consistent punishes to it will beat him. Those who don't wait for the Shinobi to get bored and try to attack. Then an actual fight can happen. Tracking is fine. Both his improved tracking on the bash and this move can both be avoided if you empty dodge (wether you get the right timing or not) and then go into unlock roll. And you don't even need half decent timing for that roll.

If OP was a confident shinobi with decent reaction times neither clip would have happened. What I said stands. The OP put himself in those situations. and making sure neither happens isn't a difficult thing to accomplish. People need to actually put in the time to learn how to deal with characters instead of jumping on the nerf wagon so early. This is 100% one of the reasons why i'm taking a break. People would rather have the devs hold their hands rather than grow as a player.

NHLGoldenKnight
08-11-2018, 08:34 AM
Again, you are focusing on wrong issue here. I don't carefor op or his level of skill. Point is that forward dash Warden has looks and works in absolutely ridiculous way. Just look at that second video. Warden is around 10 yards away, he steps with one feet forward and he is on top of Shinobi. Basically he just glided over there in an instant although physically he wasn't no where near to reach him. If you can defend heroes getting moves like that, then guys like you would defend getting Terminator in the hero roster. I guess it would be our own fault if we die, we are not skilled enough in guerrilla tactics.

voiddp
08-11-2018, 08:55 AM
If move was designed to catch running people then balance it for that purpose. Make it as reactable in usual combat as kensei Nature Wrath. 800ms. Or 700ms as its faster warden. Its heavy, right? Why the hell it has light move speed 500ms? Now its totaly valid option in close combat too as any other 500ms moves. Better than some characters have. As example Nobushi top light is 600ms...
And nerf range because vanguard should not have such range to catch people. Balanced means fair in comparison with all characters. It is not balanced now.

Knight_Raime
08-11-2018, 09:08 AM
Again, you are focusing on wrong issue here. I don't carefor op or his level of skill. Point is that forward dash Warden has looks and works in absolutely ridiculous way. Just look at that second video. Warden is around 10 yards away, he steps with one feet forward and he is on top of Shinobi. Basically he just glided over there in an instant although physically he wasn't no where near to reach him. If you can defend heroes getting moves like that, then guys like you would defend getting Terminator in the hero roster. I guess it would be our own fault if we die, we are not skilled enough in guerrilla tactics.

I believe I stated "that move looks hella telegraphed to me." Which is directed at this statement you keep repeating.

Knight_Raime
08-11-2018, 09:10 AM
If move was designed to catch running people then balance it for that purpose. Make it as reactable in usual combat as kensei Nature Wrath. Its heavy, right? Why the hell it has light move speed 500ms? Now its totaly valid option in close combat too as any other 500ms moves. Better than some characters have. As example Nobushi top light is 600ms...
And nerf range because vanguard should not have such range to catch people. Balanced means fair in comparison with all characters. It is not balanced now.

It is balanced for that purpose. It is super telegraphed and can only be done 300ms into the dodge. It could be much faster if it was allowable to be done 100ms into the dodge. You'd be getting basically conq's fastest bash but with good range and tracking. Kensei's nature's wrath is a poor example. It doesn't catch rolls. even if you used it on prediction the person has the time to respond to it.

voiddp
08-11-2018, 09:18 AM
Well then tell that other guy there to not mention kensei move as example of vanguard who has long range move. "So warden is normal too"

And sure its a bad example of badly designed move like warden has, because it is well designed like hero rework overall.

So we are back to a point that warden should not have move disigned to catch assassins at such long range at all. Assassins should be able to run away because its their disign. Need to lower range a lot, at least.

Knight_Raime
08-11-2018, 09:24 AM
Well then tell that other guy there to not mention kensei move as example of vanguard who has long range move. "So warden is normal too"

And sure its a bad example of badly designed move like warden has, because it is well designed like hero rework overall.

So we are back to a point that warden should not have move disigned to catch assassins at such long range at all. Assassins should be able to run away because its their disign. Need to lower range a lot, at least.

You calling something bad design just cause doesn't make it so. It was designed to catch poor spacing and it does that quite well.
It doesn't say anywhere that assassins are supposed to be able to run away. If anything the only hero that has that ability is Shinobi. Because he's got super sprint and the ability to back flip to create constant space.

Maybe you need to learn how to actually do a proper roll. Because dodge into unlock roll gets you away from both his bash and his dash heavy.

voiddp
08-11-2018, 09:43 AM
And maybe you on your side should stop saying it fine and telegraphed, when devs themselfs on stream told that they messed up with animation hard.
And they agree its not telegrafed now and buggy.

Also Heroes have different running speeds in this game, so its there in basic disign that some heroes run away from others. And we don't have anymore moves like that on slower heroes that can so easily catch faster heroes. Even other reworked heroes don't have such.
So here we have bad disigned "out of place" move with buggy animation.

Knight_Raime
08-11-2018, 09:57 AM
And maybe you on your side should stop saying it fine and telegraphed, when devs themselfs on stream told that they messed up with animation hard.
And they agree its not telegrafed now and buggy.

Also Heroes have different running speeds in this game, so its there in basic disign that some heroes run away from others. And we don't have anymore moves like that on slower heroes that can so easily catch faster heroes. Even other reworked heroes don't have such.
So here we have bad disigned "out of place" move with buggy animation.

Unless you can link to them specifically saying that i'm going to take it as you paraphrasing it to suit your needs because both recaps I read made no mention of this. They only commented on saying they like where his rework is at. They had more to say about valks rework.

lmao. Running speed is nothing. You're reaching. Warden was given a specific move to deal with his specific problem. That being rolling away was the number one answer to dealing with him. So the devs gave better tracking to his bash and a chase down move so people actually have to fight him.

voiddp
08-11-2018, 11:57 AM
Just climb down from you high horse and watch it I surely wont spend my time to search something again just for you Recap is just recap. Everyone who wanted to listen already know about that animation bag. As i remember will be fixed and made more fluent as it supposed to be in next den\update. Or well just continue being ignorant and claim something even devs not agree with lol. It funny enough.

And that problem is not specific warden problem. Its every character problem when people can roll away from moves and even from GBs. But they give SPECIFIC move to a warden? Well its SPECIFIC bad disign to give one hero OP move to counter general problem, that noone else have even others reworked chars. Everything in this game can be reactable sure. But there also happens to be unbalanced or unfair moves that can be balanced better.

Playing_Mantis
08-11-2018, 12:57 PM
why u defending it so much knight? who cares if its telegraphed. point is its ******ed you have to worry about blocking a move 25 feet away from you from a teleported warden. its speed is fine but cmon guy defending this... if its a bug thats fine but if not..this is waaaay to far to be rocking out an attack like that. looks stupid and makes the game look really fake and clunky. I'm ok with cool fake stuff like shinobi vanishing but if he vanished 30 feet and hit u then its over the top. anyone who sees this vid and thinks its ok is obviously a warden who likes to abuse this. kensai top attack is fast but it does never go that far. thats as far as the range attacks from shinobi....

Devils-_-legacy
08-11-2018, 03:38 PM
Against a decent player Shinobi can't bait anyone. Because he's got nothing to force them to attempt to attack. So he can just whiff and back flip all he wants. Those heros who have consistent punishes to it will beat him. Those who don't wait for the Shinobi to get bored and try to attack. Then an actual fight can happen. Tracking is fine. Both his improved tracking on the bash and this move can both be avoided if you empty dodge (wether you get the right timing or not) and then go into unlock roll. And you don't even need half decent timing for that roll.

If OP was a confident shinobi with decent reaction times neither clip would have happened. What I said stands. The OP put himself in those situations. and making sure neither happens isn't a difficult thing to accomplish. People need to actually put in the time to learn how to deal with characters instead of jumping on the nerf wagon so early. This is 100% one of the reasons why i'm taking a break. People would rather have the devs hold their hands rather than grow as a player.

Before the rework warden was one of the few heros it worked on consistently hence why I said the first video was l2p mistake but the warden reworked just dropped so I can see people making a few mistakes as the same punishes don't work always work after a rework
2nd video He teleported and was a large distance lol no matter how you word it that shouldn't happen at least not to that extreme rewatch it. Not sure why u bring up the sb is fine not a issue with it can still escape with a doge/roll the forward dash needs to be toned down I don't think anyone's asking for a hard nurf just the same adjustments as they always do after a big rework I think you do need a break if people showing a move were you teleport seems to piss you off lol

Vakris_One
08-11-2018, 03:46 PM
Again, you are focusing on wrong issue here. I don't carefor op or his level of skill. Point is that forward dash Warden has looks and works in absolutely ridiculous way. Just look at that second video. Warden is around 10 yards away, he steps with one feet forward and he is on top of Shinobi. Basically he just glided over there in an instant although physically he wasn't no where near to reach him. If you can defend heroes getting moves like that, then guys like you would defend getting Terminator in the hero roster. I guess it would be our own fault if we die, we are not skilled enough in guerrilla tactics.
You would need to select the counter picks: either John Connor, Sarah Connor or Kyle Reese. Then the Terminator becomes a pushover :p

DefiledDragon
08-11-2018, 05:38 PM
Well then tell that other guy there to not mention kensei move as example of vanguard who has long range move. "So warden is normal too"

And sure its a bad example of badly designed move like warden has, because it is well designed like hero rework overall.

So we are back to a point that warden should not have move disigned to catch assassins at such long range at all. Assassins should be able to run away because its their disign. Need to lower range a lot, at least.

You're that guy aren't you. You know the one. The guy who you get down to 50% health in a 1 v 1 and he takes off like Usain Bolt and doesn't stop running until he finds the rest of his team. Ok, I get it now.

Jrock42_
08-11-2018, 06:18 PM
I don't really see a problem with it. Once you get used to it, it becomes an easy parry. In the second clip he caught you in the perfect situation the move was made for. Not trying to be a jerk, but I haven't really had much issue with the move. I also play warden so I guess knowing when another warden will most likely use the move helps

Sneakly20
08-11-2018, 06:21 PM
Now the two clips arnt good to support your case unfortunately but I am here supporting the backflip change. It should be considered a dodge and spacer. It does the latter but the former is hyper armor atm. Shinobi does not need hyper on him. To Raime: the OP point wasnít well put. But he does make a case on the the new warden moves. Itís not much about the moves themselves, telegraphed and whatnot, but the fact that both are added to a group of moves that track the balckflip that should be considered a dodge.

The new SB is great and the VB is a nice addition. We can all agree that the new SB tracks much better and both new moves are meant to catch rolling and similar but Shinobi uses the backflip as much as he can for space and this particular thread has been made before but in light of reworks brought it back. The backflip itself should be addressed either way.

PepsiBeastin
08-11-2018, 06:22 PM
Now the two clips arnt good to support your case unfortunately but I am here supporting the backflip change. It should be considered a dodge and spacer. It does the latter but the former is hyper armor atm. Shinobi does not need hyper on him. To Raime: the OP point wasn’t well put. But he does make a case on the the new warden moves. It’s not much about the moves themselves, telegraphed and whatnot, but the fact that both are added to a group of moves that track the balckflip that should be considered a dodge.

The new SB is great and the VB is a nice addition. We can all agree that the new SB tracks much better and both new moves are meant to catch rolling and similar but Shinobi uses the backflip as much as he can for space and this particular thread has been made before but in light of reworks brought it back. The backflip itself should be addressed either way.

https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1903826-Shinobi-s-backflip

voiddp
08-11-2018, 07:07 PM
You're that guy aren't you. You know the one. The guy who you get down to 50% health in a 1 v 1 and he takes off like Usain Bolt and doesn't stop running until he finds the rest of his team. Ok, I get it now.

Yeah right again going personal when you dont have arguments lol. I dont play fast moving characters for now so i cant run away, but some people run away from me. But no problems with that here. They have speed they should be able to..

DefiledDragon
08-11-2018, 07:53 PM
Yeah right again going personal when you dont have arguments lol. I dont play fast moving characters for now so i cant run away, but some people run away from me. But no problems with that here. They have speed they should be able to..

I agree that it makes sense that some characters can run faster than others, especially given that some are wearing plate or mail and some are in pyjamas, but the ability to completely disengage from the fight at will with no recourse for your opponent essentially makes you unkillable, unless you get cornered and that's crap imo.

SenBotsu893
08-11-2018, 08:25 PM
the second clip shows how bad the animation and movement speed for valiant breakthrough are. its such an unnatural acceleration frrom standing still. not to mention that distance.

Knight_Raime
08-11-2018, 09:05 PM
Now the two clips arnt good to support your case unfortunately but I am here supporting the backflip change. It should be considered a dodge and spacer. It does the latter but the former is hyper armor atm. Shinobi does not need hyper on him. To Raime: the OP point wasn’t well put. But he does make a case on the the new warden moves. It’s not much about the moves themselves, telegraphed and whatnot, but the fact that both are added to a group of moves that track the balckflip that should be considered a dodge.

The new SB is great and the VB is a nice addition. We can all agree that the new SB tracks much better and both new moves are meant to catch rolling and similar but Shinobi uses the backflip as much as he can for space and this particular thread has been made before but in light of reworks brought it back. The backflip itself should be addressed either way.

I wouldn't know how back flip could be buffed in a way I could support. Breaking tracking with the back flip would be too strong. The current cast has maybe 5 heros that can consistently punish either option he chooses to do after a kick. Attempting to punish him generally leaves people open to be punished by him. The fact that he can frequently force this sort of interaction with other heros is bad. And buffing it in anyway is something I can't agree with.

I want shinobi and centurion to both go back to the drawing board design wise as they're both really bad anyway you look at them. So I can agree that back flip can and should get better. But i believe the fix for that goes deeper beyond that one small change.

Justicator
08-11-2018, 10:43 PM
What's the matter, can't cheese warden anymore, awwww.... against the new warden you fight like a man; trying to run or keeping your distance like a little coward will get you nowhere... damn it feels good to be a gang... i mean warden main :D

Lord_Cherubi
08-12-2018, 01:29 AM
2nd clip is straight up proof that the range need some serious toning down