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BrokenFoxx
08-10-2018, 03:56 AM
I mean, c'mon! I can't possibly be the only one feeling Kensei is a little off. In a brief synthesis, he does it all!

The dude has lightning fast pokes, his area attack first strike is hella unpredictable, he has a lot of feints and avariations to his attacks, not to mention the gigantic window he has to feint said attacks into a plethora of other possible attacks, he has hypershield in some moves, he has unblockables, he stuns on gb. Really, guys, I mean... He is everything, he is fast, he has lots of damage, he is unpredictable, his tempo is assymetrical...

I don't wish his demise-by-nerf like they did Nobushi. I just wish he was less absurd, cause his concept is cool. At least a nerf in the window he has to feint, I don't know.

I also know many will just see me as one more noob complaining about stuff, and maybe I am. Guess this is just venting out afterall.

Awlkara
08-10-2018, 04:17 AM
I complain about Kensei a lot but most people (namely Kensei players) say that he is fine and that armored lights are justified which they are not.

Fret not, you are not the only one who finds him overtuned, especially compared to the other Vanguards, well after Warden's rework, just Raider.

Knight_Raime
08-10-2018, 04:53 AM
I complain about Kensei a lot but most people (namely Kensei players) say that he is fine and that armored lights are justified which they are not.

Fret not, you are not the only one who finds him overtuned, especially compared to the other Vanguards, well after Warden's rework, just Raider.

Only his light finishers have armor. And he doesn't have easy access to them nor is it really ever worth him trading with them. Maybe you should actually learn about a hero before making strong claims like that.

MarshalMoriarty
08-10-2018, 04:54 AM
Probably because as good as he is, he's nowhere near as outrageous as basically every assassin. His lights may be fast but that's par for the course these days and they aren't especially strong. He's very good, but not unfairly so IMO.

The only real issue I have with him is that I just can't accept Swift Strike being a heavy attack. Heavy dash attacks just feel wrong to me and the opposite side aspect never stops feeling cheap.

BrokenFoxx
08-10-2018, 05:57 AM
Probably because as good as he is, he's nowhere near as outrageous as basically every assassin. His lights may be fast but that's par for the course these days and they aren't especially strong. He's very good, but not unfairly so IMO.

The only real issue I have with him is that I just can't accept Swift Strike being a heavy attack. Heavy dash attacks just feel wrong to me and the opposite side aspect never stops feeling cheap.

The only assassin that is on par with Kensei's absurdity is Shaman, and even skilled Shaman's players pale before skilled Kensei's players. PK and Oroshi have near to zero chances against Kensei, given equal skill. Oroshi still has more chances due to mach 4 light spamming, but PK? I pity her predictability. Long story short, Kensei is the ultimate assassin crusher, his fast lights and tricky feints destroy assassins as he explores their limited-time-stances.

Kensei is just too overall good, he is above par in everything he does: speed, damage, tempo, feint'ability, variations. He is like the Barbie of For Honor, the ***** can do everything.

Keef739
08-10-2018, 07:35 AM
Coming from a Kensei main:

Anyone that doesn't realize that Kensei is as strong as or stronger than every other hero doesn't fully understand the mechanics of this combat system.

I'm not advocating a nerf, but most of the roster has a lot of catching up to do.

Personally, my primary reason for using him is the superior block on dodge, which is frustratingly exclusive to him and Conq.

MarshalMoriarty
08-10-2018, 07:53 AM
Kensei is above par in speed?! He's one of the slowest moving characters and attacks wise his heavies are very slow. His attack power is only impressive on his heavies but why shouldn't it be if he's using an Odachi?

Charmzzz
08-10-2018, 08:10 AM
Probably because as good as he is, he's nowhere near as outrageous as basically every assassin. His lights may be fast but that's par for the course these days and they aren't especially strong. He's very good, but not unfairly so IMO.

The only real issue I have with him is that I just can't accept Swift Strike being a heavy attack. Heavy dash attacks just feel wrong to me and the opposite side aspect never stops feeling cheap.

Ahahha, hahaha, oh Bro, you do know that Kensei has THE HARDEST HITTING LIGHT in the game with whooping 20 Damage, do you? ^^

voiddp
08-10-2018, 10:13 AM
Very balanced hero. Can be strong, has mixups, and some fast moves and lots of slow moves. All mixup starters are slow and reactable.
All other heroes need to be brought up to balance levels of kensei, highlander and shaman, and maybe valk as of now with some tweaks. Which means to have a lot of comboed moves, opener, unblockable, i.e. to have some differentiation in playstyle.
But sadly mauch of the roster are either just 1 move\combo heroes or something overnerfed after it was also too good for roster at some point.

DrinkinMyStella
08-10-2018, 11:49 AM
the only tip I can give as a kensei main is just don't go into a fight against him too aggressive, I can beat aggressive players all day with just dodge heavies, you need to play more passive and not parry happy, if you see a heavy from the top be prepared for a soft feint, you really need to block against kensei and try to interrupt that first attack, timing is crucial against kensei. Trust me even as a kensei player I know and understand just how frustrating his in to play against and I crap myself in a mirror match because I know how diverse he is, his main tool is bating you into a parry so he can land a soft feinted heavy finisher whilst your in mid attack, his heavies are slow so don't try to parry just wait to see what direction the fein t comes from. Also his side Dodge is really easily parried these days and cant just be thrown out they have to be used as a counter, remember even if blocked he can go into his unblockable so be prepared for a soft feint into GB, very rarely do kensei players let the unblockable fly unless in dominion.

Edit: Kensei is a pure example of a rework done right, unfortunately ubi didn't do well with the other reworks and they should have all had the kensei, conq, zerker treatment.

Vakris_One
08-10-2018, 01:09 PM
I complain about Kensei a lot but most people (namely Kensei players) say that he is fine and that armored lights are justified which they are not.

Fret not, you are not the only one who finds him overtuned, especially compared to the other Vanguards, well after Warden's rework, just Raider.
I mean, you received lots of helpful feedback and tips on how to fight a Kensei every time you asked on here. Past a certain point if you're not willing to take people's advice, that you expressly asked for, then you are the only person to blame for continuing to have a problem against Kensei.

Siegfried-Z
08-10-2018, 02:00 PM
I mean, you received lots of helpful feedback and tips on how to fight a Kensei every time you asked on here. Past a certain point if you're not willing to take people's advice, that you expressly asked for, then you are the only person to blame for continuing to have a problem against Kensei.

Exactly.

But on this forum it looks like people prefer asking for nerf than trying To learn how to play.

Kensei is strong but everything he can do is reactable and so punishable.

Another point is their are only few good kensei.. most kensei only do top light/zone and dash for side heavy feint the unblocable.

These one are the maj of kensei players and they are easy to destroy if you are a decent player.

Having troubles agaisnt kensei overall then means having problem with the fighting concept of the game .

Sorry.

Awlkara
08-10-2018, 02:05 PM
I mean, you received lots of helpful feedback and tips on how to fight a Kensei every time you asked on here. Past a certain point if you're not willing to take people's advice, that you expressly asked for, then you are the only person to blame for continuing to have a problem against Kensei.


Exactly.

But on this forum it looks like people prefer asking for nerf than trying To learn how to play.

Kensei is strong but everything he can do is reactable and so punishable.

Another point is their are only few good kensei.. most kensei only do top light/zone and dash for side heavy feint the unblocable.

These one are the maj of kensei players and they are easy to destroy if you are a decent player.

Having troubles agaisnt kensei overall then means having problem with the fighting concept of the game .

Sorry.

Kensei is the only hero that I have issues with.

Everyone else I do not have a problem with, not even Shaman.

Any character that forces you to exploit a weakness of the player rather than the character is an issue.

I also exclusively play Assassins, I don't have the luxury of holding a permanent guard to the whatever side Kensei's zone comes from.

I'm sure if only shield heroes has a permanent guard this would change a lot of minds because then you'd actually have to constantly react as opposed to hold a guard to one side and turn your brain off.

Vakris_One
08-10-2018, 02:12 PM
Kensei is the only hero that I have issues with.

Everyone else I do not have a problem with, not even Shaman.

Any character that forces you to exploit a weakness of the player rather than the character is an issue.

I also exclusively play Assassins, I don't have the luxury of holding a permanent guard to the whatever side Kensei's zone comes from.

I'm sure if only shield heroes has a permanent guard this would change a lot of minds because then you'd actually have to constantly react as opposed to hold a guard to one side and turn your brain off.
Ah, so now the petty insults start flying and of course it's always to the tune of "I play the weaker hero who requires brain power while everybody else plays the ez guard heroes."

So what happens now when I tell you that I can beat a Kensei just fine using Orochi, PK and Shaman?

Awlkara
08-10-2018, 02:19 PM
Ah, so now the petty insults start flying and of course it's always to the tune of "I play the weaker hero who requires brain power while everybody else plays the ez guard heroes."

So what happens now when I tell you that I can beat a Kensei just fine using Orochi, PK and Shaman?

I already said my part to you in the other thread where we are talking. Go address that so you can understand what I intend to do about my feelings toward Kensei.

Siegfried-Z
08-10-2018, 02:21 PM
Kensei is the only hero that I have issues with.

Everyone else I do not have a problem with, not even Shaman.

Any character that forces you to exploit a weakness of the player rather than the character is an issue.

I also exclusively play Assassins, I don't have the luxury of holding a permanent guard to the whatever side Kensei's zone comes from.

I'm sure if only shield heroes has a permanent guard this would change a lot of minds because then you'd actually have to constantly react as opposed to hold a guard to one side and turn your brain off.

Well playing only assassins is your choice.
And to balance reflex guard assassins has other tools.

Look at the top 5 in top 2.5% duel in season 5 .. 3 assassins were in the top 5 : Zerk, Sham and PK.

So i am.not sure this is an argue to say i play assassin and that's why this is hard .

Which assassin do you play?

Can maybe help you.

Awlkara
08-10-2018, 02:23 PM
Well playing only assassins is your choice.
And to balance reflex guard assassins has other tools.

Look at the top 5 in top 2.5% duel in season 5 .. 3 assassins were in the top 5 : Zerk, Sham and PK.

So i am.not sure this is an argue to say i play assassin and that's why this is hard .

Which assassin do you play?

Can maybe help you.

This is Season 7 and previously Season 6, it's not even the same game remotely.

I used to play Peacekeeper(I have never touched PK before Season 6 so I know nothing about how strong she was before) but she is in a bad spot right now.

I kind of just flop around between Glad who was my former main, PK and Shinobi.

I'd really want to play Shaman but I really hate her character design and concept.

Charmzzz
08-10-2018, 02:25 PM
Look at the top 5 in top 2.5% duel in season 5 .. 3 assassins were in the top 5 : Zerk, Sham and PK.


Kensei was 3rd place, and that was before the massive PK nerf. Also, look at the specific Winrates, Kensei had the highest Winrates (up to 70% vs Orochi) against Assassins.

RexXZ347
08-10-2018, 03:06 PM
It's a little bit wierd that kensei have fast attacks even on his heavies. I can't understand but it's only him that attacks just suddenly hit you without much warnings.

The_B0G_
08-10-2018, 03:08 PM
Very balanced hero. Can be strong, has mixups, and some fast moves and lots of slow moves. All mixup starters are slow and reactable.
All other heroes need to be brought up to balance levels of kensei, highlander and shaman, and maybe valk as of now with some tweaks. Which means to have a lot of comboed moves, opener, unblockable, i.e. to have some differentiation in playstyle.
But sadly mauch of the roster are either just 1 move\combo heroes or something overnerfed after it was also too good for roster at some point.

+1 Agree completely.

Siegfried-Z
08-10-2018, 03:20 PM
This is Season 7 and previously Season 6, it's not even the same game remotely.

I used to play Peacekeeper(I have never touched PK before Season 6 so I know nothing about how strong she was before) but she is in a bad spot right now.

I kind of just flop around between Glad who was my former main, PK and Shinobi.

I'd really want to play Shaman but I really hate her character design and concept.

Well saddly season 5 figures are at the moment the latest updated we have so.

Hum i would say Glad and Shinobi are funnier than pk but it's up to you.

While Glad can suffer due to very reflex guard.

Sham is very fun man, but again it is all your choice .

If you play pk than just stick at your opponent while fighting kensei . Dont fight him mid distance.

You have the lights and zone option advantages in close combat.


Kensei was 3rd place, and that was before the massive PK nerf. Also, look at the specific Winrates, Kensei had the highest Winrates (up to 70% vs Orochi) against Assassins.

Yep i know pk is in a badder spot right now. Just wanted To show him assassins are not weakier than the others char.

Hum Orochi got his rework since and i am pretty sure this has change a lot.

But Kensei can do well against assassins yes.
He suffer more against turtles.


It's a little bit wierd that kensei have fast attacks even on his heavies. I can't understand but it's only him that attacks just suddenly hit you without much warnings.

Kensei heavies are fast ?? Damn where did you see that. Their are among the slowest of the entire game.

SpaceJim12
08-10-2018, 03:27 PM
Kensei is the only hero that I have issues with.

Everyone else I do not have a problem with, not even Shaman.

Any character that forces you to exploit a weakness of the player rather than the character is an issue.

If you don't have troubles with Zerk and Conq, but have troubles with Kensei, I have a bad news for you.
Kensei absolutly beatable and has no stupid spammy moves, that this two have.

RexXZ347
08-10-2018, 03:28 PM
Kensei heavies are fast ?? Damn where did you see that. Their are among the slowest of the entire game.

Try playing the game to know it. His only slow attack is the dodge attack. But his heavy attacks are NOT one of the slowest. I can name others who have slower heavies with him highlander, aramusha, shugoki, lawbringer, warlord, valkyrie, warden.

Siegfried-Z
08-10-2018, 04:16 PM
Try playing the game to know it. His only slow attack is the dodge attack. But his heavy attacks are NOT one of the slowest. I can name others who have slower heavies with him highlander, aramusha, shugoki, lawbringer, warlord, valkyrie, warden.

First of all dont say kid things like try playing the game before etc. I am rep 107 and rep21 with Kensei and while their are plenty of complains about Kensei i've never ever see one about the speed of his heavies.

For your information : Highlander has slower heavies but with HA And his heavies are faster while doing his turn arround moove and while in offensive stance.

Shugo are slower but he has HA on and he is a Heavy.
Warlord are not slower.
LB looks on par with.
Valk has a crazy mix up on her heavies that's why their are slow.

Aramusha and Warden ones are faster.

If dont agree with that, then you're a beginner in the game without a doubt.

And i don't even speak to all others char you didn't talk about .

Definitly kensei heavies speed is not a problem.

SenBotsu893
08-10-2018, 04:53 PM
Ahahha, hahaha, oh Bro, you do know that Kensei has THE HARDEST HITTING LIGHT in the game with whooping 20 Damage, do you? ^^

he also has the weakest lights too 12 dmg for 600 ms. is just laughable.

you are also wrong about the strongest lights. plenty of characters that have 500ms lights that give a guaranteed of 22 or more damage . pre buff warden included.

BrokenFoxx
08-10-2018, 05:05 PM
Guys I think you are seriously letting the main point drift here, in detriment of petty squables.

When I created this thread it was solely for the purpose that I, as a mere rep40, although having almost 4 months of play, have tremendous hard-time fighting against even more basic Kenseis. There were 2 or 3 useful comments on that, comming from Kensei players. As I've read here, the problem is that Kensei's rework was such a masterpiece no one else got something to par with him and, thus, he is kind of overtuned as of right now.

Now, I know I am still fresh meat here, but I am not a bad player. You see the newest players complaining about Cent, Oroshi, even Nobushi, but that's just lack of mechanic flair and character specifics and they'll overcome this eventually, given they continue to play, as I did. But after 4 months I still have the same problems with Kensei.

HazelrahFirefly
08-10-2018, 09:13 PM
Difficulty is subjective, please everyone keep that in mind.

DefiledDragon
08-10-2018, 09:21 PM
Nobody talks about Kensei's "absurdity" because they're all too busy not talking about Highlander's undodgeable grab...

UbiInsulin
08-10-2018, 09:24 PM
Let's make sure to keep the "learn 2 play" posts to a minimum. That is, indeed, not why OP created this thread. If you disagree with their take on Kensei, please just explain why. It might be worth mentioning what heroes you personally play as and the strategies that work for you in the matchup.

NHLGoldenKnight
08-10-2018, 09:56 PM
Guys I think you are seriously letting the main point drift here, in detriment of petty squables.

When I created this thread it was solely for the purpose that I, as a mere rep40, although having almost 4 months of play, have tremendous hard-time fighting against even more basic Kenseis. There were 2 or 3 useful comments on that, comming from Kensei players. As I've read here, the problem is that Kensei's rework was such a masterpiece no one else got something to par with him and, thus, he is kind of overtuned as of right now.

Now, I know I am still fresh meat here, but I am not a bad player. You see the newest players complaining about Cent, Oroshi, even Nobushi, but that's just lack of mechanic flair and character specifics and they'll overcome this eventually, given they continue to play, as I did. But after 4 months I still have the same problems with Kensei.

Will you feel better if I tell you that I have been playing this game for a year or so, rep 100, and I even have rep 11 Kensei ( before rework) and I still can't fight that damn sob? There is no way for me, him and Berserker are instant death for me. Berserker gets me on his HA since I do play aggressive, but Kensei gets me efen if I trie to turtle. Only way I can beatcKensei is if I play as Kensei myself. His huge advantage are dodge attacks which cover large area and they help him change direction abruptly . Also, his attacks have weird animations, it is like firs 2/3 of attact are reall slow and then it happens so fast. Also, if you trie to react based on his weapon position it can be hard since (at least on ps4) his weapon is hardly visible during most of the fights. I think he is by far most dangerous and least predictable Vanguard hero.

voiddp
08-10-2018, 10:33 PM
well i played kensei untill rep 13, now i play nobushi rep 9, and have to deal with kenseis. When i played him some people was able to react on me and win, some didn't
And i can tell i lot more troubles with highlander, he has more hyper armor moves and they are more accessible than kensei. Range of some hits is also huge. But i can deal with both kensei and hilander, and sure some fights i can't
But when i lose i can see why i lost, where i needed to not try to parry and just block, where i needed to feint and parry his dodge. What i do wrong, like dont use kicks with kensei, etc.
As comparison kensei doesn't have any unreactable moves beside maybe his hilt bash. And to get to actual hyper armour moves he needs to be inside of combo. Everything else is very reactable but you need to react in the right way and not to try to parry everything.

With HL there are some moves that feel very unfair and very hard to react in comparison. Warden has his bash spam with feints and ability to counter your every dodge. Cent has his combo with feints and different timings inside that can punish you very hard. Conq and Valk with their bashes and feint bashes.
This all feels very unfair for me because i sometimes do not know what i did wrong and how was i supposed to react on some of that. Not with kensei.

When i play Nobushi,i often feel that many characters have unfair advantage over mine. Kensei have advantage too because its just better Hero after rework. But i know how to react on every of his moves and what he can do. So i do that when i not fail with something. Maybe topic starter should play with kensei to learn his moves better or something. Like i do with heroes i have troubles with.

yfkutfui
08-10-2018, 10:35 PM
how come no one talks about Kensei absurdity?

because it would be absurd to do so of course,

Absurdity - the confrontation between man's desire for significance, meaning and clarity on the one hand – and the silent cold indifference of the universe (or Ubissoft :cool:)on the other.

MarshalMoriarty
08-10-2018, 11:42 PM
I'm well aware of how much his lights do. But 20 is not a 'whopping' amount, nor is it unreasonable for such a large sword. My point was to do truly devastating damage, he needs to use his heavies which are slow. Nobody spams lights with Kensei because there are far better light spammers than him.

Your insistence that he's better than everyone at everything is simply wrong.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
08-11-2018, 12:40 AM
Assassins, berserker, and Kensei use to have Valkyrie as a direct threat to them using her shield tackle which gave enough space to get out of their spam zone and counter/bait them in. Now their is no balance. No counter for the counter attack. Spam, Spam, Spam. You try to attack; They counter attack and start their chain....so stupid.

Awlkara
08-11-2018, 01:29 AM
If you don't have troubles with Zerk and Conq, but have troubles with Kensei, I have a bad news for you.
Kensei absolutly beatable and has no stupid spammy moves, that this two have.

That's the reason why he is different.

Ever notice that people don't start dodging Gladiator's toestab until that player is OOS?

You know toestab is what he wants so your brain looks for it harder whenever you are OOS because you know the dangers of it, and then when your stamina is back up you get hit by it again.

Kensei is the same way, he has no moves that you are looking for therefore he already has an advantage mentally because there is no one move that you are looking to avoid.

Couple that with how good he is and this is where you can begin to see why I am able to have trouble with him but not Zerk or Conq.

MarshalMoriarty
08-11-2018, 01:35 AM
I still don't accept that Kensei is a spam character. He doesn't have infinite chains, absurdly fast lights etc and his ability to chase people down to keep them under pressure is miserable.

He's just too slow and flat footed to be that kind of pressure character. In Dominion, he can really struggle if you give him the runaround, hitting and running, spacing etc. Unlike other slowpokes like HL and Shug. he has no good way of upping his move speed beyond a leisurely jog.

DefiledDragon
08-11-2018, 01:57 AM
That's the reason why he is different.

Ever notice that people don't start dodging Gladiator's toestab until that player is OOS?

You know toestab is what he wants so your brain looks for it harder whenever you are OOS because you know the dangers of it, and then when your stamina is back up you get hit by it again.

Kensei is the same way, he has no moves that you are looking for therefore he already has an advantage mentally because there is no one move that you are looking to avoid.

Couple that with how good he is and this is where you can begin to see why I am able to have trouble with him but not Zerk or Conq.

Yeah, he's unpredictable which makes him interesting to use and interesting to fight against. My least favourite characters are also the most predictable, one trick pony types. They're boring to use and boring to fight, even if they're effective.

RexXZ347
08-11-2018, 01:29 PM
First of all dont say kid things like try playing the game before etc. I am rep 107 and rep21 with Kensei and while their are plenty of complains about Kensei i've never ever see one about the speed of his heavies.

For your information : Highlander has slower heavies but with HA And his heavies are faster while doing his turn arround moove and while in offensive stance.

Shugo are slower but he has HA on and he is a Heavy.
Warlord are not slower.
LB looks on par with.
Valk has a crazy mix up on her heavies that's why their are slow.

Aramusha and Warden ones are faster.

If dont agree with that, then you're a beginner in the game without a doubt.

And i don't even speak to all others char you didn't talk about .

Definitly kensei heavies speed is not a problem.

oohh... So i know why kensei heavies are very slow to you. I get it. He is one of your characters. No bias in your comment. I believe it. Why don't we put hyper armor and unblockable on his heavies? That would make him atleast A tier right? Lol. *sarcasm* it's funny when you say aramusha and warden have faster heavies. Looooool! Those heavies are so easy to parry.

Jazz117Volkov
08-11-2018, 01:43 PM
I generally don't enjoy fighting Kensei because he's designed completely around punishing reactions. To say that another way, to play well against Kensei really all you need to do is not play. It's rock, paper, scissors, where he's a rock and scissors is reacting and paper is standing perfectly still. Seriously, set your controller down and count to ten, he'll soon figure you're not buying what he's selling and from there about all he has is a pommel strike that you can beat with a light.

Vakris_One
08-11-2018, 01:57 PM
I generally don't enjoy fighting Kensei because he's designed completely around punishing reactions. To say that another way, to play well against Kensei really all you need to do is not play. It's rock, paper, scissors, where he's a rock and scissors is reacting and paper is standing perfectly still. Seriously, set your controller down and count to ten, he'll soon figure you're not buying what he's selling and from there about all he has is a pommel strike that you can beat with a light.
Pretty much all the characters are designed around punishing reactions though. Kensei is a hero designed to force early reactions and punish them. Reworked Warden now also does this and I would say he does it as effectively as Kensei.

Jazz117Volkov
08-11-2018, 02:13 PM
Pretty much all the characters are designed around punishing reactions though. Kensei is a hero designed to force early reactions and punish them. Reworked Warden now also does this and I would say he does it as effectively as Kensei.That is a relevant point, and you could say the key to winning in For Honor in general is to punish your opponent's reactions.

However, Kensei's toolkit is optimized for it; he has a crazy amount of soft-feints and a huge variety of application with his moves. The Warden rework for example gives you a great bait and punish but it's very linear by comparison. Kensei's bait soft-feints into nearly every punish in the game. His moves flow together to create an almost endless combo of bait, feint, punish. His armoured cancels, dodge cancels, and crazy range also mean he can catch and punish any counter move and immediately chain into a new bait.

Other heroes are typically beaten by fast dodge attacks, unless they specially want to bait and punish them (feint and parry an Orochi Zephyr strike, for example), but Kensei has the ability to tank through them or dodge around them on reaction, and always trade in his favour, which, again, immediately chains into a higher stakes bait game. His moves are not linear, they actually escalate.

Vakris_One
08-11-2018, 03:14 PM
That is a relevant point, and you could say the key to winning in For Honor in general is to punish your opponent's reactions.

However, Kensei's toolkit is optimized for it; he has a crazy amount of soft-feints and a huge variety of application with his moves. The Warden rework for example gives you a great bait and punish but it's very linear by comparison.
It may be linear by comparison but it's no less effective. What the Warden lacks in soft feint variety compared to Kensei he makes up for by always being able to force a consistent type of reaction out of his opponent and the huge amount of damage he gets from a fully charged shoulder bash. Because he can charge and wait to react to whatever his opppnent does the Warden risks very little in terms of punishment compared to what he gets for a successful hit - he risks just cancelling out of SB and reseting the fight if his opponent doesn't fall for it vs the reward of 40 damage.

On the other hand Kensei is always risking punishment during his soft feint mixups either from a parry, a deflect or in the case of his top heavy from neutral a light to the nose. Sure, the Kensei gives you more options to have to read through and a chain of them if he starts from neutral but the Warden always has the instant threat of huge damage as soon as he starts charging shoulder bash, the kind of damage the Kensei only gets when he reaches his finisher. So on the whole I'd say they're both equally as effective in baiting and punishing, they just go about it in two very distinct styles.



Kensei's bait soft-feints into nearly every punish in the game. His moves flow together to create an almost endless combo of bait, feint, punish. His armoured cancels, dodge cancels, and crazy range also mean he can catch and punish any counter move and immediately chain into a new bait.
That's not quite accurate. He cannot punish a correctly dodged Conq shield bash from neutral for example because his dodge attack is too slow - faster dodge attacks can punish Conq. Also if the opponent dodges his pommel strike that's a free light parry if the Kensei didn't predict that his pommel strike would be dodged - you cannot do a light after pommel strike on reaction because it gets blocked if you wait even so much as a couple of miliseconds after pommel strike. So in that case the best outcome on a correct prediction is a reset of the fight.

Kensei's movements may flow together but against experienced players they are reactable and you will never see a Kensei at high level play being allowed to chain all the way into his finishers from neutral in a 1v1. He will get punished on a correct read long before he gets to his hyper armoured finishers unless he starts the first chain from a whiff, in which case there is ample opportunity for him to either be interrupted or for the opponent to simply space themselves out and away from harm.



Other heroes are typically beaten by fast dodge attacks, unless they specially want to bait and punish them (feint and parry an Orochi Zephyr strike, for example), but Kensei has the ability to tank through them or dodge around them on reaction, and always trade in his favour, which, again, immediately chains into a higher stakes bait game. His moves are not linear, they actually escalate.
Well again, Kensei's moves escalate into higher damage (not higher difficulty to predict mind you) while Warden's move stays linear but very powerful upon his opponent guessing wrong even just the first time. Different styles yet equally powerful in their own way.

Kensei has to build up into his combo finishers in order to access his hyper amour and even then he will only win trades if he uses his slow side heavies, provided he's not trading with a Highlander, a charged Shugoki heavy or a Zerker who can all out trade him. Kensei has to make good tactical decisions during the fight just as much as his opponent does against him. He is a hero that pits both player's tactical knowledge and creativity at the forefront of a fight, that's no bad thing in my opinion.

In fact more heroes should be like that rather than being one trick ponies with just 1 single very strong (and often times very abuseable) tool covering/crutching for a whole host of short comings in the kit.

Siegfried-Z
08-11-2018, 03:41 PM
oohh... So i know why kensei heavies are very slow to you. I get it. He is one of your characters. No bias in your comment. I believe it. Why don't we put hyper armor and unblockable on his heavies? That would make him atleast A tier right? Lol. *sarcasm* it's funny when you say aramusha and warden have faster heavies. Looooool! Those heavies are so easy to parry.

Lol man easier to parry doesnt mean slower.
Or course Musha heavies are easier to parry i agree than Kensie one but this is because he has a spécial timing.

Look at the better exemple, shugoki unblocable is probably the slowest attack of the game but still many times guys missed the parry and eat it in 4v4...

You should understand this.
And if you want to check yourself you are wrong, go to see heavies speed figures in the game by yourself boy.
Kensei top heavy is a 1000ms hit so let me laugh a bit please.

Siegfried-Z
08-11-2018, 03:43 PM
Pretty much all the characters are designed around punishing reactions though. Kensei is a hero designed to force early reactions and punish them. Reworked Warden now also does this and I would say he does it as effectively as Kensei.

Like always Vakris just fully agree with your words about Kensei.

I would even say warden is better now as he has a far easier acces to his pressure mooves than Kensei.

Jazz117Volkov
08-11-2018, 04:11 PM
I'm not comparing Kensei to Warden though, or saying one is more powerful, I'm just saying he's designed around punishing reactions, and to beat him, just don't react. Like you said about Warden, the charged bash forces a specific reaction that helps the Warden get consistent damage. Kensei can't really do that from neutral, or doesn't get the same caliber results, so on that I would actually agree that the Warden is probably stronger. But that was never my point; my point was simply that I don't enjoy fighting Kensei very much.

Massive tangent incoming: It's really a flaw on my behalf, that I don't typically enjoy PvP (ironic, I know, since I've spent so much time in it). For me, PvP games suffer from the nature of offering an equal experience to multiple human beings. A great example of what I mean is the parry and critical strike mechanics in Dark Souls and how they changed over the years to accommodate PvP. The AI is your partner in a way, it exists as a platform for your fun, you take actions and get results in a consistent and rewarding manner. When you bring other humans into that mix you have to dramatically restructure the mechanics, otherwise it becomes unfair (as another example, look at the cover system in Gears of War, it's dramatically different in PvP than PvE).

Assassin's Creed multi is a game where this issue wasn't considered, so anyone could effectively beat you in that game by standing atop a building fifty feet away and pressing a button when the UI told them to. Not a very competitive environment. So taking actions in PvP can't produce automatic results, they have to be calculated and involve a risk--different than PvE--this is the heart of the competitive fun, but it's also the cause of most of the problems. You know, it's why balancing is such a hot topic. In For Honor this problem originally showed itself as the turtle meta. Nowadays its less overt but in the case of Kensei, he's pretty optimized to get immediate results against attacking players by pressing a button. This phenomenon is what causes all the Swift Strike complaints--risk free damage against light attacks--player's are feeling punished for playing.

Vakris_One
08-11-2018, 04:52 PM
Almost the whole roster can get immediate results against an attacking player by having the forethought to react accordingly so I don't understand you singling Kensei out like he's an anomaly. Literally every assassin plus Warden's SB can dodge attack punish lights, assassins can also deflect them too. Let's not even talk about the option selects like PK's zone, Conq zone, Nobushi hidden stance.

I fundamentally disagree with your opinion that "player's feel punished for playing" just because a character has one of the slowest and most telegraphed dodge attacks in the game. As I said before, most of the roster are 1 trick ponies relying on a very small range of super strong moves to make up for the mediocrity and utter uselessness of the rest of their kit at high level. Most of Kensei's kit actually manages to stay viable because of his soft feint options thus pitting both player's tactical knowledge and creativity at the forefront of a fight as apposed to the usual For Honor experience, which is whoever spams the safest attack without being able to be punished wins.

Outside of his zone, none of Kensei's attacks are safe. He always risks being disrupted out of his chain or punished on a correct reaction and/or prediction. For every reaction his opponent gets wrong the Kensei wins some damage. For every reaction his opponent gets right, the Kensei sustains damage. That's a pretty fair system to ask from a reaction/prediction based fighting game in my opinion. It's the characters that cannot be punished on a correct reaction or prediction that break this system and Kensei isn't one of those characters.

SenBotsu893
08-11-2018, 07:15 PM
oohh... So i know why kensei heavies are very slow to you. I get it. He is one of your characters. No bias in your comment. I believe it. Why don't we put hyper armor and unblockable on his heavies? That would make him atleast A tier right? Lol. *sarcasm* it's funny when you say aramusha and warden have faster heavies. Looooool! Those heavies are so easy to parry.

hey if you dont trust his statement why dont you go and actually look at the framedata? because gues what... they are indeed slower.

here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wwr17AtTDFU3BZY_81axLVMKdHdNZuV0wGOb589VKgc/edit#gid=1037667970

educate yourself then come back.

EvoX.
08-11-2018, 07:44 PM
First of all, there have been a very high number of players complaining about Kensei, most commonly about his dodge attack.

Second, there's really no reason to talk about his absurdity because it does not exist. He's easily the best reworked character to date, and stands as the sole hero who is viable in all game modes without being broken, without relying on a single mechanic, and without being unsatisfying to play. Every hero in the game should receive the same treatment, but it seems like this near-perfection is too difficult to achieve again.

dinosaurlicker
08-12-2018, 03:32 AM
Hope you guys realize that kensei’s mixups are irrelevant considering at high level he’s played like the old PK. Abusing his ******edly OP zone and versatility

Siegfried-Z
08-12-2018, 08:15 AM
Hope you guys realize that kensei’s mixups are irrelevant considering at high level he’s played like the old PK. Abusing his ******edly OP zone and versatility

Hope you man realize you're wrong.
Zone isnt spam at high level, and anyway a zone spamer is not a problem for a decent player.

Zone is spam at low and average level.

His zone is not faster as warden one and you dont have option select as good as PK following to so you're also wrong to call it OP.

And i am on PS4.
Ive seen it beeing pinished very often at good level on PC.

Just wrong man.

NHLGoldenKnight
08-12-2018, 10:43 AM
Only thing I can defend agains is actually his zone lol. Everything else hits me right in the face. :)

My biggest issues with him is that he is fake Vanguard. Compared to other Vanguards he has so many options at his disposal and dodge attack is pretty important advantage. He is so fluid with his moveset and Raider and Warden next to him look like caveman swinging their wooden sticks while dancing around the fire. Kensei has like 17 or 18 different moves compared to 6 or 7 for other two Vanguards. And while Warden or Raider are almost only 1 trick pony, Kensei is probably most unpredictable hero overall, not just in Vanguard class. The way they built him is more that of a Hybrid than Vanguard.

Compared directly to Warden, here is why I am pissed off at Kensei or devs for making him like that:

1. Mobility. He is definitely more mobile than Warden with his dodge attack, sudden change of direction and spinning top strikes. Which would be ok if he was Orochi but he is Kensei, Vanguard class. Strong dude, well armored for a Samurai and his weapon is actually usually heavier and harder to manipulate than longsword. Same as Warden who surprisingly ( or actually not) doesn't have dodge attack.

2. Weapon is another reason why I don't get his moveset. So he gets to have thrusting move with his odachi but Warden doesn't although longsword is more appropriate weapon for thrusting. On top of that, Kensei is the one who gets pommel strike and although not historically inacurate, it is still much more fitting move for Warden, considering his longsword.

Imo, he cheated out Warden of his moves plus he already has a lot of cool stuff. Can't say I like it.

Spiinight666
08-12-2018, 10:45 AM
I dont think pk is in a bad spot right now she suffers the same thing raider and aramusha suffer from she is easy to predict with her top lights and suffers from turtles since she has no unblackables but saying a 400ms zone that can be soft feinted into a bleed or nothing is being in a bad place is kinda dumb and yeah its all she has but most heros besides recent reworks only have one thing going for them ara with his deadly feints raider with his top light shugoki with his heavies nobu with her kick and bleed kensei if people play him optimaly (which is only using top lights and zones pretty much)

Spiinight666
08-12-2018, 10:49 AM
He kinda does tho i only ever beat kenseis that actually play the game all the kenseis i lose to are tiether really good at feinting or they abuse pommel strike with how safe it is and only zone and top light since that top light is ****ing busted they really need to nerf the damage on his top light and zone they both come out way to fast for the damage they do idc about speed just make them do like 15 dmg thta would be so much better than the ****ing 20 damage they do right now its absurd

Vakris_One
08-12-2018, 01:48 PM
Only thing I can defend agains is actually his zone lol. Everything else hits me right in the face. :)

My biggest issues with him is that he is fake Vanguard. Compared to other Vanguards he has so many options at his disposal and dodge attack is pretty important advantage. He is so fluid with his moveset and Raider and Warden next to him look like caveman swinging their wooden sticks while dancing around the fire. Kensei has like 17 or 18 different moves compared to 6 or 7 for other two Vanguards. And while Warden or Raider are almost only 1 trick pony, Kensei is probably most unpredictable hero overall, not just in Vanguard class. The way they built him is more that of a Hybrid than Vanguard.

Compared directly to Warden, here is why I am pissed off at Kensei or devs for making him like that:

1. Mobility. He is definitely more mobile than Warden with his dodge attack, sudden change of direction and spinning top strikes. Which would be ok if he was Orochi but he is Kensei, Vanguard class. Strong dude, well armored for a Samurai and his weapon is actually usually heavier and harder to manipulate than longsword. Same as Warden who surprisingly ( or actually not) doesn't have dodge attack.

2. Weapon is another reason why I don't get his moveset. So he gets to have thrusting move with his odachi but Warden doesn't although longsword is more appropriate weapon for thrusting. On top of that, Kensei is the one who gets pommel strike and although not historically inacurate, it is still much more fitting move for Warden, considering his longsword.

Imo, he cheated out Warden of his moves plus he already has a lot of cool stuff. Can't say I like it.
Aesthetically, it's very subjective who the better looking character is or who has the better fitting moves. Competitively though, Warden is now S tier whereas Kensei is A tier. In 1v1s at high level the Warden is stronger than Kensei. The following video shows you Warden at high level. In particular at 6:22 the fight against Skeptik (a competitive player) who was using Conq - another S tier character at the competitive level.

https://youtu.be/haUTqFVEEGw

^ Warden is able to bait and punish things that a Kensei simply cannot do. In particular that Conq fight - as a Kensei Havok would not have been able to win that even using all of the things a Kensei can possibly try. Kensei is always risking being parried or stuffed out of his slow top heavy from neutral and thus unable to open with his soft feint options at close range. And without access to pommel strike, an easily dodgeable and/or stuffable move at high level, the Kensei has no opener against turtles.

Warden on the other hand has the perfect tool to force a consistent reaction out of his opponent. And he can hold it in order to wait and see what his opponent's reaction will be before deciding to commit to anything himself. He risks very little vulnerability - a light attack at best worth 16-20 damage - while his ultimate reward is huge - a 40 damage top heavy. If the opponent rolls away, Warden can cancel into Valiant Strike for 20 damage. And with the varied timing of SB even his smallest reward - double side lights - is worth 18 damage. Not too shabby a reward at all compared to the speed and tracking of an uncharged shoulder bash being able to beat out most 500ms lights that weren't thrown on prediction. The Warden can even punish the dodge and unlock roll bug that high level competitive players abuse to escape everything - it's in the video in the Conq match.

That is an incredibly powerful tool. I would dare say possibly the most powerful 1v1 tool in the game right now. I had my doubts that Warden had jumped straight into S tier but after watching competitive players use him at high level play I have come to agree with the opinion that he is S tier. I have a rep 42 Kensei and although I'm nowhere near a pro player I do know his moves inside and out. The things that Warden can punish and the pressure he can put on an opponent in a 1v1 situation are things the Kensei simply cannot do no matter how hard he tries.

Siegfried-Z
08-12-2018, 02:19 PM
Only thing I can defend agains is actually his zone lol. Everything else hits me right in the face. :)

My biggest issues with him is that he is fake Vanguard. Compared to other Vanguards he has so many options at his disposal and dodge attack is pretty important advantage. He is so fluid with his moveset and Raider and Warden next to him look like caveman swinging their wooden sticks while dancing around the fire. Kensei has like 17 or 18 different moves compared to 6 or 7 for other two Vanguards. And while Warden or Raider are almost only 1 trick pony, Kensei is probably most unpredictable hero overall, not just in Vanguard class. The way they built him is more that of a Hybrid than Vanguard.

Compared directly to Warden, here is why I am pissed off at Kensei or devs for making him like that:

1. Mobility. He is definitely more mobile than Warden with his dodge attack, sudden change of direction and spinning top strikes. Which would be ok if he was Orochi but he is Kensei, Vanguard class. Strong dude, well armored for a Samurai and his weapon is actually usually heavier and harder to manipulate than longsword. Same as Warden who surprisingly ( or actually not) doesn't have dodge attack.

2. Weapon is another reason why I don't get his moveset. So he gets to have thrusting move with his odachi but Warden doesn't although longsword is more appropriate weapon for thrusting. On top of that, Kensei is the one who gets pommel strike and although not historically inacurate, it is still much more fitting move for Warden, considering his longsword.

Imo, he cheated out Warden of his moves plus he already has a lot of cool stuff. Can't say I like it.

I really disagree Kensei looks to have that much more Option than Warden and Raider.

Yes he has more tools than Raider but more tools didn't mean stronger. In 4v4 Raider is an absolute beast.

About Warden, specially after rework, he has an easier access to his mix up, a better pressure game, a zone as fast as Kensei one, better lights considering their are all 500ms now. . AND anything can be followed by his unblocables now which Kensei cannot do.

Without a doubt, while Kensei is strong, in 1v1 Warden is better now.


He kinda does tho i only ever beat kenseis that actually play the game all the kenseis i lose to are tiether really good at feinting or they abuse pommel strike with how safe it is and only zone and top light since that top light is ****ing busted they really need to nerf the damage on his top light and zone they both come out way to fast for the damage they do idc about speed just make them do like 15 dmg thta would be so much better than the ****ing 20 damage they do right now its absurd

These kind of statements i don't understand .

Top light ? 500ms and the top one is his only effective light To engage.. others are parried.

Zone ? 500ms as well.. always come from same side.

Pommel strike safe ?? The moove is perfomed on a 1sec top heavy .. it is like "Hey man i am going To use pommel strike so land a light To punish me"

How people can have that much problem with such predictable things... wonder.

Sweaty_Sock
08-12-2018, 06:51 PM
No game will ever have every character absolutely balanced. Kensei is definitely near the top of the pile post rework but at least is still on the same playing field as the rest of the cast (just as one of the star players) - everyone can remember at least one character getting launched who is on another level entirely, and thats when the absurd gets called out.

For me his dodge attacks are only a problem when he target switches in dominion, although given his block properties and reach of his weapon i'd think it would be fair if this was a light attack with light attack punish to force more thought into its use

Zone isnt the most broken move in the game, but its fast for its damage (i.e cents superfast uncharged heavies are 600 ms for 25 damage, with only a fraction of the arc or reach of kensei). In duels this gives him some crazy mixup potential as the zone doesn't follow a sequence (top feint into pommel str... wait *ouch* zone). Not unbeatable, but definitely powerful

Personally the only absurd thing about kensei is post rework his 'all attacks unblockable' feat was left in dominion