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View Full Version : Counters for the newly reworked heros.



Knight_Raime
08-05-2018, 02:53 AM
Sorry i'm making a lot of topics the past few days. Just trying to make sure everybody is informed so they can make a well rounded opinion.

Lets start out with Warden:

Shoulder bash. It got better tracking all around but also worse end recovery making it pretty easy to GB on dodge for anyone. How you counter SB use depends on how your opponent is using it. I see most people struggling to deal with the full charge so we will talk that. Full charge SB can be punished with a late dodge. Typically an audio clip plays from warden when he begins to charge due to committing. If dodging is hard for you then i'd suggest playing kensei, orochi, Berzerker, or shaman. All of these heros can dodge on reaction to seeing orange and then letting the dodge attack fly when they see him move.
Alternatively if you have a fast zone attack or bash you can react to him staying in charge by use that on reaction to his dodge. But again as a reminder these are counters if you know the person is committing to the charged bash.

Top unblockable finisher. It's semi hard to tell when he's committing. So unless you know your opponent I wouldn't recommend going for a parry. Instead you're better off late dodging for a GB once you get used to the timing. Since it has no soft feints him canceling to respond to your dodge is not really doable on reaction. Beyond that I also would not recommend hard feinting to GB to try and catch it. It has very few vulnerability frames. It's almost impossible to GB them out of even on prediction. Your best bet is to throw a fast attack in attempts to interrupt on prediction. or hard feinting in hopes to bait him into canceling it.

General tips. Not much has changed in terms of how to combat him. Warden just has better tools to handle people who have poor dodge/roll timings. You can still dodge to unlock roll to escape his game. But if he's aware of this he can actually punish you. There really isn't a catch all solution to handle wardens new moves. Which is a good thing. I'd recommend going into training to get a feel for the new SB timings and animations. Once you get a grip on it he'll feel less oppressive and more fun to fight.

Now lets look at Valk:

Shield crush: Is almost as good as kensei's pommel. But you have 100ms extra time to react. Which at higher levels of play makes it reactable. You can actually dodge shield crush by dodging on reaction to the heavy indicator. But GB is no longer a good punish. Not only due to the better recovery but because valk can follow up with a top 400ms delayable light. In this sense you have to treat her shield crush similarly to Conq's bash. Meaning if you have a delayable dodge attack you can beat it entirely. if you don't you just empty dodge and parry if she does an attack afterwords.

Shield tackle. Lost a lot of it's 4 potential. But it's now a very good escape and respond tool to mix ups people normally roll away from. She can even exit out of it really quickly. So trying to attack her out of it is not a good idea. If you know she's going to shield tackle you can technically GB her in start up. As letting it fly is too slow to respond to a prediction GB. That's pretty much it. There are "some" niche kit specific scenarios that can potentially punish it. But as far as duels go you're pretty much just going to have to let her go in. She doesn't really have any strong follow ups from it anymore though. So at least you don't gotta worry about that.

Sweep. it only got slightly faster whenever it decides to come out of left side. The delay window was shortened to 200ms. Making it very hard to trick you. The best thing to do is keep in mind that with her new combos and shield crush she can technically threaten with sweep at any time. If you keep that in mind instead of trying to figure out when she'll release it you should be able to dodge and GB when she does.

General tips. Honestly you really just need to learn how to avoid shield crush and not overly spam mix ups against her. If you can avoid and/or punish crush she doesn't have much of an offense. sweep timing is something you already should have learned how to dodge. But if you haven't just go into training. A solid defense shuts valk out a bit easier now. If you're a decent turtle you're fine.

bannex19
08-05-2018, 06:06 AM
Nice post thanks!

Mighty_Mackerel
08-05-2018, 10:49 AM
Very Nice!