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HazelrahFirefly
08-03-2018, 02:16 PM
I'm hoping to start a long discussion here, because I feel conflicted regarding the new perk system that will be in place starting with Marching Fire's release.

For anyone who doesn't know.... it will be difficult to explain in any shortened way what is happened in mid-October. Basically, the stats on gear are going to be removed completely, to be replaced by perks. When you think of perks think of the Division or Fallout, though obviously not similar in effect to any of those. They did mention that the perks are aimed to be lesser in power than even level 1 feats.

If someone has a better summary PLEASE feel free to write it out!

Now, I love, LOVE the idea of a perk system. It, in theory, will create far more builds for any given hero, and change up the team dynamic by having builds that function together. On top of that, it will erase the silly argument that gear stats hinder new players - this is a personal opinion, but it is something I am glad for. I truly can't wait to play around with perks and find cool combinations that fit my playstyle (hopefully).

That said, they did also mention on the WD that all our gear will be transitioned over to perks that are randomly assigned. This is a good thing, don't get me wrong, but I have a couple of concerns:

1) What if the gear is so random that there's literally nothing of use? What if all the gear I have turns out to be valueless in the perk system and suddenly my Rep 14 Valkyrie literally has useless gear (as a random example)? They stated that one perk will always be active by default, and that's a decent safety net, but what if other players end up with amazing perks right from the start? Ultimately this isn't that big of a deal I suppose because just like with bad gear stats it will be quickly fixed by playing and collecting gear, and with the perks being lesser in power it should be a negligible notice.

2A) Every single piece of our gear is going to transition over, and Pope even went as far to state that we might want to horde gear when it comes near October 16th to increase our chances of getting good perks/perk combinations. This is a bit... complicated? because I already have lots of gear for every character I play. I never liked the Visual Collection update as it is clearly a rip-off of steel, and so I have kept every piece I like to the point that no hero (that I play) has below 30 pieces of gear. To get them up to 50+ will take a little bit of time, but at the same time not so long that I may end up having to stop playing my "mains" because they are too full of gear. I could also just be to OCD about this.

2B) It's a weird concept that the perks will be randomly assigned to our current gear with no relation to the stats we've worked for. Lots of steel has been spent by some of us (but I will come back to that in a minute), and now our favorite pieces, visually, might be garbage. On top of that, how will the Visual Collection even work in terms of the new pieces? I know this is something that we should get a true explanation on, and not speculate, but I can't help and be worried that every piece I have will have to be scrapped and that I will be stuck with "ugly" pieces until I spend more steel to customize.

3) Is this just a new way to gouge more steel from the playerbase?? Think about it, every steel spent on gear could be wasted as of the 16th of October, and then to get the desired perks on the right pieces might cost a s*** ton more. I definitely think they created this system because it is healthier for the game, but I'll be damned if they didn't also realize they had an awesome new way to get packs of steel purchased.

What are everyone else's thoughts?

DefiledDragon
08-03-2018, 02:27 PM
I have the same concerns about my existing gear sets and I've spent quite a bit of steel and salvage getting them to where I want and I really don't want to have to do it all over again.

voiddp
08-03-2018, 02:33 PM
I love new system, because really... Currents gear stats are the total fail if we look from "builds" side. There are no "builds" now. There are 1 maybe 1.5 viable builds which are the same for any character. Because there are lot of garbage stats, and few of the stats are and best and must have. Almost nothing to chose from for each gear peace between. For me the only choosing is not is for Helm and Bracers peaces. Which of these will have -def and both other stats maxed, and which will have +def with some stat in minus. And it doesn't even change anything noticeable.

And percents progression from gear levels don't help with this too. You can't think of a lot of properties of hero which can be scaled for % progression and not cause some in-balance at some point.

So fixed perks are really easier to balance out. And if they are balanced and have low effect, you can't get to much shifts in balance from having 2-3 or mb then even 4 perks active. So I really like new system.

But I wish for them to make some better migrate system than just random. They should make some connection between some stats and perks and migrate some maxed stats of the current gear to some perks of new gear that will be close enough to these stats by purpose.
Even if some new perks cant be connected to any of the current stats, its fine. Let them be new, and let people to try to make those new build. But there are clearly perks that can be connected. So just connect them when migration will happen.

Don't think its some steel fishing, just usual programmers laziness to do something they think is unnecessary. But this will cause some unrest if they wont do this. Because players love their sets they did spend time to collect and upgrade all that.

PepsiBeastin
08-03-2018, 02:38 PM
About existing gear, this is how it will work.

When new gear is looted, it will get random perks right? It seems that some can only come with 1 perk even at high level which is kind of dumb, but this is relevant for below.


1. Equipped gear
For gear that is on your character, when the perk system rolls out it will be converted differently than inventory gear. For the set your character is wearing, (which I'm assuming is your 3 loadouts, or may only be your most recent loadout used) your upgrades will be converted into perk upgrades. If your gear has say 3 upgrade levels, then you will get 3 levels distributed between the 1 or two perks given to that piece. For the entire set you have equipped, they won't be given random perks, rather one or two perks will be chosen for the whole set. That way, you don't have to mess around with your gear to try to get an actual working set. If you have a fully maxed set on a character, at the start of marching fire that character's equipped set will start out with maxed out activated perks.

2. Inventory gear
For gear in your inventory, each piece is assigned random perks and the upgrade levels will just be traded in for perk leveling.

HazelrahFirefly
08-03-2018, 02:49 PM
About existing gear, this is how it will work.

When new gear is looted, it will get random perks right? It seems that some can only come with 1 perk even at high level which is kind of dumb, but this is relevant for below.


1. Equipped gear
For gear that is on your character, when the perk system rolls out it will be converted differently than inventory gear. For the set your character is wearing, (which I'm assuming is your 3 loadouts, or may only be your most recent loadout used) your upgrades will be converted into perk upgrades. If your gear has say 3 upgrade levels, then you will get 3 levels distributed between the 1 or two perks given to that piece. For the entire set you have equipped, they won't be given random perks, rather one or two perks will be chosen for the whole set. That way, you don't have to mess around with your gear to try to get an actual working set. If you have a fully maxed set on a character, at the start of marching fire that character's equipped set will start out with maxed out activated perks.

2. Inventory gear
For gear in your inventory, each piece is assigned random perks and the upgrade levels will just be traded in for perk leveling.

That's a good point, that at least 1 to 3 sets of gear will be "useful;" I put that in quotation marks because they may be perks that are opposite or contrary to how we play.

I'm still very nervous about having to farm up a whole hell of a lot more pieces to get the perks we want, and then a HELL of a lot more steel spent to get them on the pieces we want.

voiddp
08-03-2018, 02:53 PM
By the way.
About migration. I guess equipped means equipped in any one of 3 slots. So for now we can expect up to 3 random "perk builds" to get after October update hits, for each of 3 slots per hero geared.

So even if you don't have more than one build now, something you should do before that update is to find as maxed as you can different gears and equip all of them in different hero slots. Someone that wont do that will be in worse position after update. Because his inventory gear will no have synergy with each other because of random. And someone who will have 3 slots equipped in different sets will get 1-3 builds with perks active right away.

And this point is needed to be widespread for players somehow if this is how it will happen.

Xeith98zz
08-03-2018, 02:53 PM
Wish they would have explained the perk system better, i still had two questions, are we still going to get base damage increases due to higher tier gear like we have today?

And what about HP? With this perk system id certainly like to see some sort of base HP increases when a perk is activated. (Then again I know people will ***** about it /UNFAIR NONONO)

Regardless, im liking the new system. Hope we all recieve new details in the coming weeks/months.

Kamen42
08-03-2018, 02:58 PM
I love the idea. This makes it easier for new people to not get overrun by veterans who have incredible gear and also, this gives options for expansion in the future. New perks and/or weapon rarity could be introduced in the future. If a new weapon rarity came now, the difference between low gear/good gear would be even higher than now.

The only thing I am concerned about is that now you can have useless combinations of gear. Now if you equip better gear, you get stronger overall. Even if it might not be the area you are looking for, the overall strength of your character increases. But with the new system, equipping better gear might actually mean your character gets WORSE, because you lose some perks.

voiddp
08-03-2018, 03:00 PM
Wish they would have explained the perk system better, i still had two questions, are we still going to get base damage increases due to higher tier gear like we have today?

And what about HP? With this perk system id certainly like to see some sort of base HP increases when a perk is activated. (Then again I know people will ***** about it /UNFAIR NONONO)

Regardless, im liking the new system. Hope we all recieve new details in the coming weeks/months.

They did explained this.
Perks wont change with gear level changes.
If you can get some perk active on lvl1 basic gear. It will add the same (as example) +15hp shield, as if you will make this same perk active on refined4 lvl30 gear. You will get the same +15hp shield.
The only difference that on lvl1 gear it will be always 1 perk per set as max what you can get.
On max gear it will be up to 3 perks combinations.

And 4, 5, 6ths perk types, which are supposed to be a BIT more powerful gameplay-wise and "heavier" to equip in combinations with other perks can be unlocked only on better gear levels.

voiddp
08-03-2018, 03:06 PM
The only thing I am concerned about is that now you can have useless combinations of gear. Now if you equip better gear, you get stronger overall. Even if it might not be the area you are looking for, the overall strength of your character increases. But with the new system, equipping better gear might actually mean your character gets WORSE, because you lose some perks.
Well now if you have +0,8 attack basic gear and you find +ally revive\-negateDefence\0attack rare gear. If you equip it you wont be better. There are useless combinations that can make you worse now too.
And with new system if you have some perk you love to have, you just need to find new leveled gear\or combination that has this perk too. But you can get new perk at the same time.

HazelrahFirefly
08-03-2018, 03:36 PM
They did explained this.
Perks wont change with gear level changes.
If you can get some perk active on lvl1 basic gear. It will add the same (as example) +15hp shield, as if you will make this same perk active on refined4 lvl30 gear. You will get the same +15hp shield.
The only difference that on lvl1 gear it will be always 1 perk per set as max what you can get.
On max gear it will be up to 3 perks combinations.

And 4, 5, 6ths perk types, which are supposed to be a BIT more powerful gameplay-wise and "heavier" to equip in combinations with other perks can be unlocked only on better gear levels.

It is true that they explained all of how it will work, and the system is actually quite nice in terms of balance. The problem is that it is also confusing AF, especially for anyone who's not accustomed to stats like this from other games (board games in particular). I won't ever fault someone for having questions or being stumped by that graph and the assignment of perks.

I REALLY look forward to playing around with perks in terms of decided if two of the "best" kind work for me, or I should only take one so I can have three total with two of a "lesser" kind.

SenBotsu893
08-03-2018, 03:59 PM
the problem is that some perks are locked to specific heroes wich is very very BAD.

there are bound to be some usefull and some useless perks. and if you play a character that doesnt have access to the usefull perks then you have basically a big disadvantage.

perks need to be universally accessable to all heroes or this will turn out to be a second layer of feat unbalance.

HazelrahFirefly
08-03-2018, 04:25 PM
the problem is that some perks are locked to specific heroes wich is very very BAD.

there are bound to be some usefull and some useless perks. and if you play a character that doesnt have access to the usefull perks then you have basically a big disadvantage.

perks need to be universally accessable to all heroes or this will turn out to be a second layer of feat unbalance.

You might very well be right, but we don't know that yet. There could definitely be perks that simply don't make sense for certain heroes. At the same time, I'd like to believe that all the perks will be balanced even if they are not the same - especially since their power is being touted as less then even level 1 feats.

That said... balance has not been a strong suite for this team, so it is frightening as well. Could be another year and a half until they are balanced, or close to like the heroes now lol.

Xeith98zz
08-03-2018, 06:33 PM
They did explained this.
Perks wont change with gear level changes.
If you can get some perk active on lvl1 basic gear. It will add the same (as example) +15hp shield, as if you will make this same perk active on refined4 lvl30 gear. You will get the same +15hp shield.
The only difference that on lvl1 gear it will be always 1 perk per set as max what you can get.
On max gear it will be up to 3 perks combinations.

And 4, 5, 6ths perk types, which are supposed to be a BIT more powerful gameplay-wise and "heavier" to equip in combinations with other perks can be unlocked only on better gear levels.

Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying.

Knight_Raime
08-03-2018, 07:51 PM
I can't say I have much thought on this from your perspective. I duel so gear has never really been relevant to me beyond looks. (not that I don't at least try to have decent stat options just in case. But you get my point.) I also have 90 un opened boxes. So i'm not too worried about gear variety. I like that they are trying to make more unique building aspects of the system whilst also lessening the impact of said gear.

Did they give any examples of perks we might see?

HazelrahFirefly
08-03-2018, 08:03 PM
Very few, just the starting perks that new players (or newly unlocked heroes) will have. I barely remember them, but I know that Shaman, Shinobi, and Centurion start with a perk called Devourer, which grants an additional +15 hp upon execution. This will end up mattering because execution regen will not longer exist.

I duel waaay more then anything else as well, but always tried to have stats for the weekend when playing with friends. Thing is, these perks even apply to Duelers as they will exist in every game mode, even duels, brawls, and ranked duels.

JediGamerFurius
08-03-2018, 08:09 PM
the problem is that some perks are locked to specific heroes wich is very very BAD.

there are bound to be some usefull and some useless perks. and if you play a character that doesnt have access to the usefull perks then you have basically a big disadvantage.

perks need to be universally accessable to all heroes or this will turn out to be a second layer of feat unbalance.

Yes, I'm worried about that too. I know they will try to get the perks wich is more usefull on each character, but on the other hand, they could make mistakes in "usefull perks" and of course the ballance as well. But as Hazelrah said, we don't know that yet, so let's wait.

Also there is another thing on the matter. If I unequip my char hours before Marching Fire's release for example, could it be more safer for get the perks I want it?

Sneakly20
08-03-2018, 08:12 PM
I definitely agree this will be an easier system I just hope some perks arnt gonna be ridiculous.

With that being said I will be very upset if there are perks affecting revive speed and revenge. Leave them to their base stuff please. No revenge builds or reviving in x amount of time etc.

voiddp
08-03-2018, 09:06 PM
yeah they showed starting gear perks for every hero
http://i63.tinypic.com/2dlkprm.jpg

HazelrahFirefly
08-03-2018, 09:15 PM
Yes, I'm worried about that too. I know they will try to get the perks wich is more usefull on each character, but on the other hand, they could make mistakes in "usefull perks" and of course the ballance as well. But as Hazelrah said, we don't know that yet, so let's wait.

Also there is another thing on the matter. If I unequip my char hours before Marching Fire's release for example, could it be more safer for get the perks I want it?

Not really. Equipped gear will allow for enough points for at least one perk activated of the power level of the gear. Meanwhile, unequipped gear will have entirely randomly assigned perk numbers. You COULD end up with some great stuff, or could end up with not a single perk activatable between all the unequipped gear. There's no knowing ahead of time. I would leave some pieces equipped, 6 per Loadout I mean, so that you at least get some advanced perks on day one.

This is why I am struggling with wanting to horse gear right up until, so I have the most options to chose from.

HazelrahFirefly
08-03-2018, 09:16 PM
Thank you Void for posting that image! It's a great reference for the few perks we know so far.

voiddp
08-03-2018, 09:20 PM
I duel waaay more then anything else as well, but always tried to have stats for the weekend when playing with friends. Thing is, these perks even apply to Duelers as they will exist in every game mode, even duels, brawls, and ranked duels.
They said it is their intention to make gear viable for everymodes someday, even for ranked. And old gear wasn't viable.
And they also specifically said that perks will be only for 4vs4 modes when matching fire starts. And only next, based on community feedback about perks they will turn them on for duels etc. or will not turn them on... So do not worry too much, i guess untill they will balance everything you wont see perks in duels..