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Tyrjo
07-23-2018, 08:17 AM
Can we not have to wait one month for the win matrix to be released this season? Within one week of the season closure is reasonable.

Vakris_One
07-23-2018, 01:18 PM
Darn it, ya got me with the click bait title! I came here expecting to see the S6 win matrix.

https://nyobetabeat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/anigif_777-2432-1303312751-40.gif?w=635

Ubi-Jimothy
07-23-2018, 01:35 PM
Hey Tyrjo,

Unfortunately it's not that easy. There's a lot of work that goes into gathering the data, creating the graphics and such. We'll try to get it out as soon as we can after the season ends, but it's most likely going to take some time.

Regards,

Jim.

Justicator
07-23-2018, 01:59 PM
Meaning Ubisoft still hasn't come up with a good idea on how to present some of the obviously unbalanced characters as not so unbalanced when the matrix will clearly show it as such. :)

We.the.North
07-23-2018, 03:38 PM
Hey Tyrjo,

Unfortunately it's not that easy. There's a lot of work that goes into gathering the data, creating the graphics and such. We'll try to get it out as soon as we can after the season ends, but it's most likely going to take some time.

Regards,

Jim.

This process should be dynamic by now and data collected as it is received. Doing the matrix is litteraly a 2 hours job of putting each match-up win/loss % into the matrix square ... unless you guys need to present the numbers to employees higher up in the decision chain so numbers that would look bad for Ubisoft are manually changed ... but that would be cheating the numbers, which would kindda be like how Faction Wars work anyway.


Meaning Ubisoft still hasn't come up with a good idea on how to present some of the obviously unbalanced characters as not so unbalanced when the matrix will clearly show it as such.

End of Season 5 showed Conqueror with 60% overall win rate, mostly due to how unpunishable his shieldbash is and how good it is to punish a lot of move in this game. Nothing has been done to nerf it yet, it baffles me.

Seriously, if the state of the game is bad to you, just stop playing and come back 4-6 months later. Dont expect short term game changing changes before marching fire.

Justicator
07-23-2018, 04:27 PM
We.the.North, completely agree, yet from our past experience, i feel that 4-6 months down the line, shaman, conq, HL, and what not will simply be replaced by the next 'cool' and utterly broken hero form the new factions. (Not to mention completely unrealistic, seriously, the monk blocks precise axe and sword blows with his bracer on his ONE HAND??????). At this point I feel that the glorious vision of the game’s true creator, Jason Vandenberghe, will remain just that, a glorious but unfulfilled vision, muddled by the meme-friendly, let's-give-everyeone-MOAR-spam-and-cancer-beacuse-we-have-no-idea-how-to-balance-anything-at-this-point attitude from those that took over. As long as shaman, a hero that weights 50-60kg at best, can throw a person that has around 90kg of body mass+20kg of armor around like he has no weight at all, be an ultra light-spam monster that can SOFT FEINT into way too much options form an UNBLOCKABLE attack clearly shows me that this team really has no idea what the hell they're doing. Ubisoft's answer? We have heard your concerns and will transfer them to the team. Really? Well, you better change the team, cause ATM, your balancing team makes a step in the right direction and 2 steps in the we-like-to-snort-coke-all-day-when-doing-balancing-and-designing-new-heroes direction EVERY SINGLE TIME. Oh, and those ****ty balances take 4-5 months. 4-5 MONTHS!!! You have so many good and constructive players here on the forums that have pointed out at the many flaws and unbalances in the CORE GAME CONCEPTS and heroes, and yet, it takes your professional team 4-5 months to, not balance the game, oh no no no, but to **** it up further? Really? Damn son, at this point, I'm not even mad. I'm just disappointed at what you did with an awesome and unique concept, that would clearly be in a much better state if handled by another, more competent studio like, for instance, CD RED.

Tyrjo
07-23-2018, 04:32 PM
Hey Tyrjo,

Unfortunately it's not that easy. There's a lot of work that goes into gathering the data, creating the graphics and such. We'll try to get it out as soon as we can after the season ends, but it's most likely going to take some time.

Regards,

Jim.

Oh OK, at least now we know not to check the blog 10 times a day after the season has ended. :)


Darn it, ya got me with the click bait title! I came here expecting to see the S6 win matrix.

https://nyobetabeat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/anigif_777-2432-1303312751-40.gif?w=635

Sorry man. Since S6 hasn't officially ended yet, I thought it was an OK title. ;)

We.the.North
07-23-2018, 06:20 PM
At this point I feel that the glorious vision of the game’s true creator, Jason Vandenberghe, will remain just that, a glorious but unfulfilled vision, muddled by the meme-friendly, let's-give-everyeone-MOAR-spam-and-cancer-beacuse-we-have-no-idea-how-to-balance-anything-at-this-point attitude from those that took over.

Did you know he was fired for having a poor attitude ??

There is a whole documentary about him and another dude. It is about telling the tale of how those two lived with the production process over the years. Jason had the vision and the ability to hype his player base. Unfortunately, he liked to impose this vision to his coworker and could not compromise. Eventually, they unofficially gave his job to someone else (Roman) and isolated Jason into one of the only closed door office within Ubisoft Montreal, nobody was to interact with him. They kept him there because they didn't want to fire him since he was still the face of the game.

At the launch party, Jason seemed moody. Yannis (CEO of Ubisoft Montreal) came to him and asked "What's up?". Jason replied "I'm sorry if I dont dance to my own funeral". To which Yannis replied "You're a grown man, you can choose how to react to it". Jason was officially fired not long afterward.

Jason now works at Arenanet on Guildwars I think.

In other words, you are right. The whole vision of For Honor was replaced with people who wants to change it completely adding more combos and meme to the game. Just look at Roman's attitude during Warrior's Den, he just doesn't give a **** and looks like he's bothered to be on the show, clearly looking down upon the player base. He shows absolutely no energy during the show, he's just annoyed.


Damn son, at this point, I'm not even mad. I'm just disappointed at what you did with an awesome and unique concept, that would clearly be in a much better state if handled by another, more competent studio like, for instance, CD RED.

You put your finger on the main issue. For Honor has a unique concept and thus, it doesn't have any competition on the market. That's why DEVs are not pressured to put on the best game possible, players dont have anywhere else to move to.

Expect Ubisoft to put minimal effort into the game. Their many years plan to keep the game "as a service" revolves around making balance patch and releasing new playable content every 6 months or so. New stuff appears just when players start getting bored with the same old meta. When even that becomes stale, then there's an expansion like marching fire that prompt youtubers to give good review and help renew the hype.

Dont believe anything in the comment section of these videos and on Ubisoft Forums, they have dummy accounts made to "thumbs up" massively and create false hype. Look at what you get for yourself and decide if you like it or not, cause the internet is full of fake news and fake reactions.

I mean, just look at this ****, do you REALLY believe the hype is back for No Man Sky ???
https://www.pcgamer.com/two-years-later-the-hype-for-no-mans-sky-is-back/

Tyrjo
07-23-2018, 07:17 PM
Ok. Period.
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Now we can get the topic back on track. Thank you.

Tundra 793
07-23-2018, 07:21 PM
Did you know he was fired for having a poor attitude ??

There is a whole documentary about him and another dude. It is about telling the tale of how those two lived with the production process over the years. Jason had the vision and the ability to hype his player base. Unfortunately, he liked to impose this vision to his coworker and could not compromise. Eventually, they unofficially gave his job to someone else (Roman) and isolated Jason into one of the only closed door office within Ubisoft Montreal, nobody was to interact with him. They kept him there because they didn't want to fire him since he was still the face of the game.

At the launch party, Jason seemed moody. Yannis (CEO of Ubisoft Montreal) came to him and asked "What's up?". Jason replied "I'm sorry if I dont dance to my own funeral". To which Yannis replied "You're a grown man, you can choose how to react to it". Jason was officially fired not long afterward.

Think you can find us a link to that there documentary mate?

Jason VandenBerghe was like my hero in the time leading up to For Honor's launch, and I was very shocked by his sudden depature from the team, but with all the articles and stories I've read and heard about, I could never find something outright sinister about his firing/resigning.

We.the.North
07-23-2018, 08:15 PM
Think you can find us a link to that there documentary mate?

Jason VandenBerghe was like my hero in the time leading up to For Honor's launch, and I was very shocked by his sudden depature from the team, but with all the articles and stories I've read and heard about, I could never find something outright sinister about his firing/resigning.

I don't know if there is a link to watch it online, but the name of the documentary is "Playing Hard"
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7655524/?ref_=ttfc_fc_tt

We.the.North
07-23-2018, 08:21 PM
Ok. Period.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now we can get the topic back on track. Thank you.

By now the subject is closed.

The win matrix for Season 6 will be released after the start of Season 7. If it's like the win matrix for Season 5, expect the win / loss matrix of Season 6 to be released a good 2 months into Season 7.

Justicator
07-23-2018, 08:51 PM
We.the.North, you are currently my Hero. :) I did not know this about Jason VandenBerghe, so sad. Just goes to show what ubisoft does with real talent. Hope he does well on his new job.
Your words paint a sad truth. The only thing that remains is to await the release of Bannerlord (which will happen God knows when) or for someone with actual talent and care for his players to take the awesome concept of Jason and create a game worthy of his vision.

We.the.North
07-23-2018, 09:23 PM
I did not know this about Jason VandenBerghe, so sad. Just goes to show what ubisoft does with real talent. Hope he does well on his new job.

To be fair toward Ubisoft, the video game industry is a business. At some point, you have to balance between the amount of resources required to achieve something vs how much more money you'll get from the game.

Having worked there myself 7 years ago, I know they have something called a "Closer". The "Closer" is a pair of fresh eyes that haven't touched the game yet. Near the end of the Beta, the job of the "Closer" is to check everything still in progress and cut cut cut cut cut. Anything that won't make it in time or that would take up too much resources from the team to complete is being cut. You end up with a game rushed to be released in time with some of its key features cut from the game. The "end game" is less than what it could have been, but the trade-off in $$ is worth it.

Very few companies bank on reputation to sell future games. Companies like CD Projeck Red have an overwhelmingly positive reputation with their player base and by now, they pretty much can get away with anything. But it takes an incredible game to achieve such reputation and you can never reach that by cutting corner. Ubisoft has another business philosophy where they cut corner to make games as profitable as possible to their shareholders. They sell less, but their games cost a lot less. (1 assassin's creed every year).

Justicator
07-23-2018, 09:49 PM
And again, this is so sad. Not just about Ubi, but the state of the industry as a whole... Thanks for taking the time to reply to these, they are informative :)

Vakris_One
07-24-2018, 12:39 AM
Think you can find us a link to that there documentary mate?

Jason VandenBerghe was like my hero in the time leading up to For Honor's launch, and I was very shocked by his sudden depature from the team, but with all the articles and stories I've read and heard about, I could never find something outright sinister about his firing/resigning.
Hey Tundra. How goes it man? You planning on getting back into FH when Marching Fire launches?

Knight_Raime
07-24-2018, 12:59 AM
Meaning Ubisoft still hasn't come up with a good idea on how to present some of the obviously unbalanced characters as not so unbalanced when the matrix will clearly show it as such. :)

Not really though. All 3 reworks of season 5 (kensei, conq, and zerk) were all considered to be absolutely broken at some point. And their data showed how each hero rocketed up from where they were pre reworks. They're not afraid to show that data. To claim so is just a childish behavior.

Knight_Raime
07-24-2018, 01:02 AM
To be fair toward Ubisoft, the video game industry is a business. At some point, you have to balance between the amount of resources required to achieve something vs how much more money you'll get from the game.

Having worked there myself 7 years ago, I know they have something called a "Closer". The "Closer" is a pair of fresh eyes that haven't touched the game yet. Near the end of the Beta, the job of the "Closer" is to check everything still in progress and cut cut cut cut cut. Anything that won't make it in time or that would take up too much resources from the team to complete is being cut. You end up with a game rushed to be released in time with some of its key features cut from the game. The "end game" is less than what it could have been, but the trade-off in $$ is worth it.

Very few companies bank on reputation to sell future games. Companies like CD Projeck Red have an overwhelmingly positive reputation with their player base and by now, they pretty much can get away with anything. But it takes an incredible game to achieve such reputation and you can never reach that by cutting corner. Ubisoft has another business philosophy where they cut corner to make games as profitable as possible to their shareholders. They sell less, but their games cost a lot less. (1 assassin's creed every year).

To sort of add my own feelings on the hat of this when I saw for honor's first public reveal I was hyped. and while this game has deff had it's low points and there are still some things about it that make me unhappy i've never once thought this game was bad for taking this route. Nor have I ever thought the game was a failure despite starting off with very flawed concepts. I love this game to it's very bones. and i'm so glad it's still around and still being supported content wise. One of my favorite fighters of all time.

ChampionRuby50g
07-24-2018, 06:11 AM
Just look at Roman's attitude during Warrior's Den, he just doesn't give a **** and looks like he's bothered to be on the show, clearly looking down upon the player base. He shows absolutely no energy during the show, he's just annoyed.





Dont believe anything in the comment section of these videos and on Ubisoft Forums, they have dummy accounts made to "thumbs up" massively and create false hype. Look at what you get for yourself and decide if you like it or not, cause the internet is full of fake news and fake reactions.



Great post. This is also something Iíve noticed about Roman few times I watch a den. He looks bored, pretends to sleep, shows a complete disconnect from the community and doesnít seem to really care.

But the dummy account thing I find hard to believe. Sounds real Illuminati like and I think itís a stretch.
But considering Ubisoft still havenít fixed the forum spam after a year, anything could be possible.

Jazz117Volkov
07-24-2018, 09:14 AM
I don't know, I think that's a bit unfair to Roman. I always thought he was just a bit awkward on the show.

And if there is a hint of contempt for the community, can you really blame him? You wouldn't know how many death threats have made it to his mailbox, sent be people who otherwise claim to be "fans".

Vakris_One
07-24-2018, 09:59 AM
About Roman's attitude, how long have you been watching the Warriors Den's for? I used to think he had an attitude problem as well but after watching a couple of WD's with him in them I started appreciating his no nonsense, give no fu/ks approach. In fact he's my favourite one of the devs now. Not everyone has to be the bubbly talkative salesman like Eric Pope, no offense.

In this corporatised gaming world of ours where everyone that is put on a public platform to represent the company is trying to act like your bestest buddy it's quite refreshing to see someone drop all the pretense and bulls/it and just say things as they are. If you saw Roman introducing the Marching Fire update or have seen him doing interviews for gaming news outlets you can see that he is clearly passionate about the game. He just won't act like he's your best friend out for a social chat in the Warriors Den's, which to be honest is a refreshing presence to have. Especially with such a childish and toxic community like this that really could use a big tall glass of grow the fu/k up from time to time.

Tyrjo
07-24-2018, 10:16 AM
My impression of Roman is that he is a "no nonsense get things done type of person". A great characteristic when you have a leading role like that, get to the point, scrap the bs, eyes on the prize.

If he looks un-enthusiastic on the stream, it's because it's filled with too much empty talk and I think it bores him (it bores me at least). How many times haven't he put the show back on track after it's sidetracked out of topic...?

ChampionRuby50g
07-24-2018, 10:16 AM
@Vakris, I dunno man. Iíve seen a video off him pretending to fall asleep on someone elseís shoulder while another dev is talking about something. I would find that pretty rude if that was me talking, like itís a smart @ss thing to do. I did see him introduce the Marching Fire update at E3, and he did look engaging then, but thatís because he had to be as he was announcing the biggest update the game has seen. Not saying he doesnít care about the game, but at times it does feel like heís just putting on a show.

You and tyrjo both make good points though, the no nonsense attitude can be appreciated at times, and yeah the ďbanterĒ that goes on can get tiresome in the show. Personally Iím not a fan of Pope, not to say he doesnít do his job well but the man just rubs me the wrong way.

Vakris_One
07-24-2018, 10:50 AM
Well every one of us that has ever presented something to an audience has "put on a show". Very few people have a natural ease in front of an audience or a personality that is compatible with being a showman. It's an acquired skill that most of us have to work at and train up.

Tyrjo said it better than me and I echo his sentiments. Whatever you feel about Roman you can't deny that he's always the one who gets the conversation back on track to the business at hand. Rather than letting the guys go off on tangents about a sale in Cost Co or buying matresses. Roman is for sure a smart a$$ but that's part of his charm if you're the type of person that appreciates that. On the Warriors Den he doesn't seem to do it out of spite, seems more like he's goofing around with people who are his colleagues and friends. I have friends like that where we're just smart a$$es to each other so that's probably why I like Roman. But he is also the most professional person there when important info needs to be put across without any faff.

We.the.North
07-24-2018, 04:28 PM
My impression of Roman is that he is a "no nonsense get things done type of person". A great characteristic when you have a leading role like that, get to the point, scrap the bs, eyes on the prize.

Sure, but please look at facts.

- Have feats been balanced lately ?
- Half Valk been buffed since ....... release date ? Despite being the lowest tier character since launch ...
- How long did it take to nerf down Peacekeeper ?

Dont fool yourself about Roman getting things done. There is a huge difference between getting things done and getting them done in a timely manner. I've been working in the video game industry and the only reason things take THIS LONG to get done is because they want to stretch how long the game will remain somewhat alive. At this point, the rework / new heroes are their very bad way of creating a dynamic meta where the top heroes changes. They are not balancing, they are nerfing / releasing new OP ****.

Vakris_One
07-24-2018, 05:13 PM
Sure, but please look at facts.

- Have feats been balanced lately ?
- Half Valk been buffed since ....... release date ? Despite being the lowest tier character since launch ...
- How long did it take to nerf down Peacekeeper ?

Dont fool yourself about Roman getting things done. There is a huge difference between getting things done and getting them done in a timely manner. I've been working in the video game industry and the only reason things take THIS LONG to get done is because they want to stretch how long the game will remain somewhat alive. At this point, the rework / new heroes are their very bad way of creating a dynamic meta where the top heroes changes. They are not balancing, they are nerfing / releasing new OP ****.
Perhaps you could do things better? You can always submit your CV and job application and see if they hire you for such a position based on your previous experience.

It's one thing to sit on the sidelines and theory craft about someone doing a job. It's another thing entirely to be the one responsible for doing said job.

Tundra 793
07-24-2018, 05:19 PM
Hey Tundra. How goes it man? You planning on getting back into FH when Marching Fire launches?

Just tryin' to make it through the summer, us Scandinavians weren't built for this sort of heat.

Almost certainly not. All the things that made me leave in the first place haven't been addressed in the slightest, and from what information I can gleam, they've only gotten worse. So no grand return for me at the moment, I'm still way into Sea of Thieves.

CandleInTheDark
07-24-2018, 06:18 PM
Hey Tundra. Yeah you have to do what you enjoy, still good to see you here.


Well every one of us that has ever presented something to an audience has "put on a show". Very few people have a natural ease in front of an audience or a personality that is compatible with being a showman. It's an acquired skill that most of us have to work at and train up.

Tyrjo said it better than me and I echo his sentiments. Whatever you feel about Roman you can't deny that he's always the one who gets the conversation back on track to the business at hand. Rather than letting the guys go off on tangents about a sale in Cost Co or buying matresses. Roman is for sure a smart a$$ but that's part of his charm if you're the type of person that appreciates that. On the Warriors Den he doesn't seem to do it out of spite, seems more like he's goofing around with people who are his colleagues and friends. I have friends like that where we're just smart a$$es to each other so that's probably why I like Roman. But he is also the most professional person there when important info needs to be put across without any faff.

I very much agree, there have been times their first five minutes feels like two or three of the devs there could have had that conversation away from the camera and it has reached five minutes in and they haven't said anything on the game yet, then they will say oh crud we're running long, people have lunch and meetings. So I appreciate anyone who gets it back on track because while Eric is a great community guy on reddit and does a great (sometimes thankless from what I can see) job overall, outside of the community corner (which I kind of wish the time for went to Q&A or they mixed the two like last week's more often) it is frustrating when sometimes the game news type stuff feels rushed. Maybe if they hadn't spent five minutes talking about trips and costco...

Knight_Raime
07-24-2018, 06:26 PM
tbh if I were to have any complaint about the devs/den in general it's that they kinda don't do q&a as much as they used to. As I understood the point of the den was to talk about what's up with the game and talk to the community in general in an open and relaxed sort of format. To make the communication between the players and the devs feel frequent and good. But for the past few months it kinda just feels like they show up to talk about something random, do a community corner, and mention weekly content. Only really changing this when new big content/patches are coming.

I'm thankful for what they do and all. But we're getting to the end of the stretch here imo when it comes to the final polish to make this game feel complete. And there are a lot of issues they're either not talking about at all. Or they have little to say on it. It doesn't help that some of their reworks have been a bit questionable and they basically refuse to rework dlc heros.

We.the.North
07-25-2018, 12:00 AM
Perhaps you could do things better? You can always submit your CV and job application and see if they hire you for such a position based on your previous experience.

It's one thing to sit on the sidelines and theory craft about someone doing a job. It's another thing entirely to be the one responsible for doing said job.

I have been, for another company than Ubisoft. But by now, I left the whole video game industry and moved on to something else making me happier and much more wealthy. I'm now a CPA with self thought classes from my home.

Balancing isn't hard. What I used to do for someone else than Ubisoft was doing iteration. Every month we released a balance patch and little by little, we got those % win/loss number closer together. Releasing balance patch every 6 months isn't balancing.

Vakris_One
07-25-2018, 01:07 AM
Which games did you work on and what was your job role? I would love to sample some of your fine balancing work in the PvP genre.

Vakris_One
07-25-2018, 01:12 AM
Just tryin' to make it through the summer, us Scandinavians weren't built for this sort of heat.

Almost certainly not. All the things that made me leave in the first place haven't been addressed in the slightest, and from what information I can gleam, they've only gotten worse. So no grand return for me at the moment, I'm still way into Sea of Thieves.
I understand. You gotta play what makes you happy. If Skull and Bones turns out to be a good game I might see you there, who knows :)

Card1acArrest
07-25-2018, 03:32 PM
On the Game vision: if it was more grit and "realism", it would appeal to way fewer players.

New characters amaze me in the sense they start the design by capturing the spirit of the class, and then build movesets on that. Roman take this approach every time, i really like it.

The season 8 is a new big step, looking forward to it.

This universe kan be expanded to virtually everything, id like to see spellcasters and archers. Or Mods!

Best game i ever played since 1982 :)

And agree with Tundra, oslo area is melting :)

Justicator
07-25-2018, 08:21 PM
We.the.North it's no use. Some people simply refuse to see the facts. It's pointless to explain something to someone who does not wish to see reason. I've also done balancing and re-balancing on tabletop RPGs as part of a small team, and the time it takes UBI to balance their game (and still have CORE game concepts that are unbalanced and bad) clearly shows either incompetence, lack of concern or what you said to quote; " their very bad way of creating a dynamic meta where the top heroes change".

Tundra 793
07-26-2018, 04:41 AM
I understand. You gotta play what makes you happy. If Skull and Bones turns out to be a good game I might see you there, who knows :)

Oh absolutely, I still lurk here just to keep track of their updates. Looks phenomenal, but gameplay seems meh. But we shall see!
In the meantime, Sea of Thieves serves all my pirate needs just fine, or you can find me in GTA V.

And sorry about going off topic in your thread Tyrjo, but you know, it's me :) Does that still count for somethin' 'round here?

Vakris_One
07-26-2018, 01:11 PM
We.the.North it's no use. Some people simply refuse to see the facts. It's pointless to explain something to someone who does not wish to see reason. I've also done balancing and re-balancing on tabletop RPGs as part of a small team, and the time it takes UBI to balance their game (and still have CORE game concepts that are unbalanced and bad) clearly shows either incompetence, lack of concern or what you said to quote; " their very bad way of creating a dynamic meta where the top heroes change".
So I take it people aren't allowed to disagree with you? And if they have the gall to have a different opinion then you ex-communicate them. Congratulations. You typify the average Internet forum poster who feels incredibly threatened by people not agreeing with them and who desires an echo chamber to feel safe.

For the record; I'm not saying Ubisoft isn't slow in their updates or that they can't do things faster like many other games studios manage to do. I am just challenging We The North's credentials and disagreeing with whether he can offer the in-depth commentary on Roman's job that he has been typing when North himself has very likely never held such a position. On the Internet it's very easy to talk a big talk you see because you can't really prove or disprove anything of a personal nature.

For example, I could tell you that I used to work for Frontier Developments and was in the team who worked on balance passes for all the ship weapons in Elite Dangerous until recently. Our major balance patches were months apart from each other which of course didn't sit well with the players whose main focus was PvP. But we would rather release a quality update that addresses multiple issues with as few bugs and glitches as possible than more frequent balancing updates that would have a higher possibilty of breaking something else.

That was/is the main philosophy of Sandro Sammarco, the lead game designer on ED, when I was working there. To someone from the outside looking in it is a fertile ground to concoct conspiracy theories that we were delaying balancing updates because we didn't care enough about the PvP side of things, or we were trying to "kill off PvP for good" in our game or because we were incompetent at balancing our game because we didn't play it ourselves, or even that we were preparing to sell off ED to another studio and etc. Of course I didn't have access to every meeting that all the higher ups would have because I didn't hold a high enough position in the company so I can't really say anything about what the Lead Designer and the CEO had private discussions on. I would need to have worked as a Lead Designer myself in order to comment on that aspect to any degree of accuracy.

Hopefully you can understand what I'm saying a bit better now.

Justicator
07-26-2018, 02:37 PM
Your previous posts sure do sound like you defend ubisoft, at least from my perspective. I think that we can agree to disagree. From your point of view, it is acceptable that they take a year and more and still have basic game concepts completely off, and instead of fixing those, they release broken characters that have way too much. And I am sure that many would agree with you, especially when considering that FH is a unique game concept, there is no other game really like it, etc. etc. From my point of view, it is completely unacceptable. And that is fine; you are entitled to your own opinion, I am entitled to mine. If the devs are not ashamed to release the Shaman and still not tone her down, even after all this time and after all the demonstrative youtube videos that clearly show that she is not a jack of all trades but a MASTER of ALL, then I am not ashamed to bash that same dev team. My entire previous post was aimed at telling We.the.North that it is futile to try and explain to you his point of view when you have an opposing one yourself. As i previously said, your definition of what is 'reasonable' is clearly different from mine or from We.the.north's, thus the futility of it all.

CandleInTheDark
07-26-2018, 03:09 PM
If the devs are not ashamed to release the Shaman and still not tone her down, even after all this time and after all the demonstrative youtube videos that clearly show that she is not a jack of all trades but a MASTER of ALL, then I am not ashamed to bash that same dev team.

That would be the same shaman that at the level they are all balanced for has no higher than 48% win rate against any of the rest of the top seven, correct? In fact her win rates run 48 (conqueror), 44 (peacekeeper), 42 (Kensei), 41 (Berserker), 41 (Aramusha), 42 (Shugoki). The only reason she is top five at all is that she bullies the mid to lower tier characters pretty harshly which suggests that the problem is more one of needing to raise those up. Her throw distance could do with coming down but outside that she is already struggling against the top tier characters in high level play. Even at whatever my level is I have never really struggled against her but then I put time into learning her moves playing as and against her in practice.

Outside of Shaman, again at the level they are balanced around, there are only four characters who fall outside the 45-55% overall win rate the devs look for, now sure individual matchups need improving and those at the lower end of that scale need improving, but to say that as a whole the heroes are widely unbalanced goes against the numbers we have been given.

Vakris_One
07-26-2018, 03:29 PM
Your previous posts sure do sound like you defend ubisoft, at least from my perspective.
Then you really need to go back and re-read my posts because I never once defended Ubisoft on anything in this thread. Most of my posts were about Roman's personality and my opinion of him in response to the topic becoming about how some people see Roman as having an attitude problem.

The only other thing I have done in this thread is to question We The North's validity in his assumptions of being able to do a better job than Roman. I asked if he could do a better job and to provide me with evidence of his previous work and job title so that I can sample his work as a games industry proffessional, which he claims to have been.

Nowhere in this thread have I said I approve of the amount of time Ubisoft takes to release balance patches nor have I defended anything they do. My perspective on Ubisoft so far in this thread has been completely neutral. All I have done is given my personal opinion of Roman and asked another poster if he could provide evidence of him having done a better job of balancing a commercially released PvP video game.



If the devs are not ashamed to release the Shaman and still not tone her down, even after all this time and after all the demonstrative youtube videos that clearly show that she is not a jack of all trades but a MASTER of ALL, then I am not ashamed to bash that same dev team.
That's your opinion and that's fine. I never agreed nor disagreed with you on that subject. In fact I have made no comment at all in this thread on that subject ergo it is impossible for you to claim that you know my point of view on this.



My entire previous post was aimed at telling We.the.North that it is futile to try and explain to you his point of view when you have an opposing one yourself. As i previously said, your definition of what is 'reasonable' is clearly different from mine or from We.the.north's, thus the futility of it all.
How do you know what my definition of "reasonable" even is without having directly asked me or interacted with me at all in this thread prior to just now?

You failed to grasp what part of We The North's point of view I was challenging so let me make it as clear as I can for you. I come from the school of thought whereby you should always question where someone's facts have come from. Especially on the Internet. We The North claimed he knew precisely the inner workings of Ubisoft because he used to work there and how Roman is doing his customers/the players a disservice by purposefully delaying balance patches. North then went on to claim that he has done a better job of balancing a video game than Roman and/or Ubisoft back when he was still working in the games industry.

I asked him to produce evidence as proof of his claims. We The North has yet to provide any such evidence or proof.

Hopefully that's cleared things up for you.

Alustar.exe
07-26-2018, 04:48 PM
Most of the players struggling with shaman have problems with functional, basic core mechanics of the game. If you can block, parry, dodge and CGB reliably, shaman will pose little problem outside of kit flow.

Justicator
07-26-2018, 09:18 PM
@ CandleInTheDark If your idea of balanced is to have unblockable attacks that can be soft feinted way too late in the animation and into way too many options, and that others should be brought to that same level of cancer than gg. Basically, that would mean that the warden will HAVE to get the ability to soft feint his *new and upcoming* heavy unblockable finisher into either a side light or a GB, otherwise his options aren't up the level of the shaman, right?

@alustar24 I don't bash on shamans because i struggle with them. quite frankly 1v1 they are not that special if you keep your distance and throw a light whenever she does anything or if you are a turtle god. I bash on shamans because they are completely unrealistic, their bite is pure cancer in 4v4 when synergized with bleeds from other sources, and her GB throw distance+guaranteed headbutt are stupidly OP. It has nothing to do with skill. It has everything to do with design and balancing. Like so many have pointed out and shown.

Knight_Raime
07-26-2018, 09:37 PM
@ CandleInTheDark If your idea of balanced is to have unblockable attacks that can be soft feinted way too late in the animation and into way too many options, and that others should be brought to that same level of cancer than gg. Basically, that would mean that the warden will HAVE to get the ability to soft feint his *new and upcoming* heavy unblockable finisher into either a side light or a GB, otherwise his options aren't up the level of the shaman, right?

@alustar24 I don't bash on shamans because i struggle with them. quite frankly 1v1 they are not that special if you keep your distance and throw a light whenever she does anything or if you are a turtle god. I bash on shamans because they are completely unrealistic, their bite is pure cancer in 4v4 when synergized with bleeds from other sources, and her GB throw distance+guaranteed headbutt are stupidly OP. It has nothing to do with skill. It has everything to do with design and balancing. Like so many have pointed out and shown.

"unrealistic" nothing in this game is realistic. It's a fantasy game. Moves are over blown to be entertaining for the spectator. Not practicality.
"their bites are pure cancer in 4v4..." Hard to take someone seriously who uses that kind of verbiage. You can convey a point without coming across like a child throwing a fit. The only problem with it in 4's is unlike any other grab move in the game you can't pop revenge to escape it. I'd be 100% fine with them making bleed from other sources that are not hers not allow her to pounce. But i'm not sure how they could do that from a coding standpoint. Nerfing it out right really isn't a solution either since that's her only decent damage.
"her GB throw distance+ headbutt is op..." in what way? Crashing charge mix ups and LB being able to impale you from parry for 50+ damage are just as strong. and arguably easier to do.

It has nothing to do with design or balancing. She's the only hero in the game with a kit that's functional at all skill levels. And everything she can do mix up wise has a hard punish against her if read right. And that punish at baseline is universal for the whole cast. She's incredibly balanced. She's the very imbodiment of risk and reward. You just have a personal distaste for her. Which is fine. But you're opting to make something out of nothing. If she truly was as bad of a problem as you make her out to be her stats would at least reflect this some what. But they don't. Which means if anything is an issue with her it's not so big of an issue that it puts her head and shoulders above kits that are out performing her at the moment.

Justicator
07-26-2018, 11:12 PM
At this point, I really don't care what you think about the way i talk raime. I am expressing my views, that correlate to the opinions of many forum users. Weather you agree or what you think about that is really not my concern. I stand by what I said, shaman is not a good design and if the game is heading up her alley, I hope that a new game with similar original good concepts that FH had will come out and replace it soon, allowing us that prefer at least some semblance of realism and not high fantasy to enjoy it.

Knight_Raime
07-26-2018, 11:16 PM
At this point, I really don't care what you think about the way i talk raime. I am expressing my views, that correlate to the opinions of many forum users. Weather you agree or what you think about that is really not my concern. I stand by what I said, shaman is not a good design and if the game is heading up her alley, I hope that a new game with similar original good concepts that FH had will come out and replace it soon, allowing us that prefer at least some semblance of realism and not high fantasy to enjoy it.

You can forget about my view all you want. The only people who are going to actually listen to your views are people that already agree with you. If you can't present your feelings and points in a constructive manner without resorting to terms such as "cancer" you're just not going to be taken seriously. Which sort of defeats the whole point of coming to a discussion place. And that means nothing. The entire forum base could agree with you and it still would be the minority compared to the silent majority of players.
For honor was never realistic. Not from Beta. Not from day 1. I'd suggest you actually look into fighting history and the history of these types of warriors if you want to know what stuff would really be like.

Justicator
07-26-2018, 11:57 PM
I never said it was absolutely realistic, I know full well that warriors did not fight in the same manner depicted in this game. They did not leave themselves open when attacking, for instance. I have played FH from the open beta, so i was there from the start. And it was a hell of lot more realistic before shamans bashing their heads at plate armor and throwing 110kg guys around like nothing. You could, if not completely immerse yourself, at least suspend your disbelief easily. Something that you can't do anymore when seeing shinobis, shamans and the rest of the lightly armored skinny guys running around and obliterating 'mountains'...

Alustar.exe
07-27-2018, 12:03 AM
The team synergy is a key point annoy 4v4, and honestly, I'd like to see more heroes work options like this. Centurion has it on his eagles talon, zucchini and lawbringer sort of have it with their CC but outside of that, there are very few others I think. If you eliminate it from her, you need to deal with the rest as well.

Raime hit it on the head pretty accurately, though, she is by far the best tuned character. I don't know many players in my groups that struggle overly hard to deal with her. Like I've said, the only players struggling with her are primarily ones that cannot block/parry, dodge or CGB reliably enough and get caught up in her mix ups.

Knight_Raime
07-27-2018, 12:13 AM
I never said it was absolutely realistic, I know full well that warriors did not fight in the same manner depicted in this game. They did not leave themselves open when attacking, for instance. I have played FH from the open beta, so i was there from the start. And it was a hell of lot more realistic before shamans bashing their heads at plate armor and throwing 110kg guys around like nothing. You could, if not completely immerse yourself, at least suspend your disbelief easily. Something that you can't do anymore when seeing shinobis, shamans and the rest of the lightly armored skinny guys running around and obliterating 'mountains'...

I see where you're coming from. But the only time I feel my immersion is broken is when something really silly happens. Like using the execution on Gladiator that lifts someone over himself being used on goki. But if we were to pick a point of origin I wouldn't say that started with shaman. I think it would be shinobi with his smoke dodges. I will have a hard time justifying shaolins literal teleporting feats though.

Justicator
07-27-2018, 12:33 AM
And that's what kills it, slowly, for me. I think that a lot of people bought this game and expected something that wasn't this. The memey executions started the silliness, the shinobi continued to break the immersion, and the shaman ruined it completely. Seeing the teleports of the shaolin and how he blocks attacks with his upper arm is beyond silly... The saddest part is they had a unique concept and wasted it on making the game become more and more like Rainbow six siege instead of doing something outside their comfort zone and creating a legendary product...

Knight_Raime
07-27-2018, 12:58 AM
And that's what kills it, slowly, for me. I think that a lot of people bought this game and expected something that wasn't this. The memey executions started the silliness, the shinobi continued to break the immersion, and the shaman ruined it completely. Seeing the teleports of the shaolin and how he blocks attacks with his upper arm is beyond silly... The saddest part is they had a unique concept and wasted it on making the game become more and more like Rainbow six siege instead of doing something outside their comfort zone and creating a legendary product...

I can agree that sometimes there is a tad too much memeing going on. But I don't think they've crossed a line yet meme wise.
well technically he's blocking with a metal bracer. which wouldn't really work. But then again there are worse offenders than this imho.

Justicator
07-27-2018, 01:10 AM
hahaha, true. But still, not by a lot :D .

CandleInTheDark
07-27-2018, 01:51 AM
@ CandleInTheDark If your idea of balanced is to have unblockable attacks that can be soft feinted way too late in the animation and into way too many options, and that others should be brought to that same level of cancer than gg. Basically, that would mean that the warden will HAVE to get the ability to soft feint his *new and upcoming* heavy unblockable finisher into either a side light or a GB, otherwise his options aren't up the level of the shaman, right?

That isn't quite what I was saying, no. I don't look at the kits and their options in isolation which I think a lot of people do while ignoring other things, I look at how they fare in the hands of people of roughly equal skill which the top 2.5% win matrix shows us, also at the pick rate which is staggeringly low (~77% of the heroes are more frequently picked than her) at that level. Shaman definitely needs looking at because whether high or low a lot of her numbers are off in terms of individual matchups but just nerfing her puts her in a worse position against the top tier (and, let's face it, aramusha and shugoki who she has 42% and 41% against are upper middle tier at best) that she is struggling against already, therefore the answer in my view is that the heroes she is beating handily need to be made better. That does not mean adding a tonne of moves and soft feints, that means where possible making the kits they already have better whether it is a damage value here or making something less punishable there and then if that is not possible as was found with the likes of Kensei and Berserker giving them more options that thematically fit their kit as it stands.

The 4v4 pick chart also helps to show the current meta, shaman is a relatively rare pick at high level (not as bad as 1v1 but still seven above her, so more than a third of the cast, are higher picks) which I suspect is partially because she struggles against the meta picks 1v1 and she is more effective if you build a team around her. I play peacekeeper to the shaman of someone in my group, so we get stuff done there (though again I can only speak anecdotally but because I make sure I keep an eye on her when I am bleeding I dodge more than I am hit by unless the opposing team is good enough at layering attacks I would have been killed anyhow), higher tier Ultimate Digital Athletes do because they have Alernakin who is one of the best nobushi players out there so they might as well go all in on the bleed team aspect, if your group doesn't already have bleeders though, and a lot won't because the vanguards do the soldier zone as well as nobushi and are all more often picked, in fact all the other characters with bleed are lower picks than her, then the berserker is the meta assassin and you aren't going to add a peacekeeper and a shaman and make a near all assassin team at a level composition matters. The meta currently seems to be a vanguard, berserker, then I would guess two of conqueror, highlander and lawbringer (in a range of 9.1%, 1.5% which separates Shaman from Highlander, the bottom of those three, is quite a gap) so to me that indicates that she is not considered powerful enough to be an automatic pick in 4v4 at that level either.

Alustar.exe
07-27-2018, 02:30 AM
That's another thing, too, if shaman were so violently overpowered as some players suggest, she would have both a drastically higher pick and win rate than she does right now.

Justicator
07-27-2018, 10:47 AM
But that is exactly my point! CandleInTheDark, don't you see! This is exactly what makes her a terrible designed hero. Her damage numbers are off the chart, her stamina punish is insane, her throw distance coupled with guaranteed headbutt is extremely unrealistic and, to put it as it is, idiotic. And yet, when faced with certain mid-tier heroes that are considered boring and/or under-powered (Shugoki for instance), or players that are extremely good at keeping their cool and do not fall for the unblockable-soft-feint-into-way-too-much, she struggles to the point where she isn't considered a meta pick unless the team is built around her, as you so eloquently stated out. So basically, you have a hero that either stomps newer and less-experienced players to the point where she is the second most hated hero on release (centurion will forever hold that special place in FH history lol, partially because the time it took to re-balance him, although what ubi did to him is not balancing, it is neutering), and who at the same time struggles in the upper tier to the point where she isn't all that picked. As I said, all about design, nothing about skill.

I mean just look at this!
https://www.reddit.com/r/forhonor/comments/7c2a7b/shaman_full_moveset/
If you can't see why people think she is not balanced, then really, what other hero currently has the ability to cancel almost anything into everything. And don't get me started about how late her indicators appear on her i-can-traverse-100m-faster-than-usain-bolt attack. I don't want to see her nerfed to the ground, I want to see her balanced. Take the frustrating and obviously broken BS away and grant her some useful things that would increase her viability in higher-tier play. The same way I hate how the centurion is designed, a hero now considered lacking and with whom i personally have no problems 1v1 (like I don't have with most shamans when its 1v1). Although cent is clearly under-powered and definitely needs to be heavily re-balanced, because he takes away the player's agency from their own heroes, many still consider him OP and/or frustrating to play against. Again, nothing to do with skill, everything to do with design!

Knight_Raime
07-27-2018, 05:53 PM
But that is exactly my point! CandleInTheDark, don't you see! This is exactly what makes her a terrible designed hero. Her damage numbers are off the chart, her stamina punish is insane, her throw distance coupled with guaranteed headbutt is extremely unrealistic and, to put it as it is, idiotic. And yet, when faced with certain mid-tier heroes that are considered boring and/or under-powered (Shugoki for instance), or players that are extremely good at keeping their cool and do not fall for the unblockable-soft-feint-into-way-too-much, she struggles to the point where she isn't considered a meta pick unless the team is built around her, as you so eloquently stated out. So basically, you have a hero that either stomps newer and less-experienced players to the point where she is the second most hated hero on release (centurion will forever hold that special place in FH history lol, partially because the time it took to re-balance him, although what ubi did to him is not balancing, it is neutering), and who at the same time struggles in the upper tier to the point where she isn't all that picked. As I said, all about design, nothing about skill.

I mean just look at this!
https://www.reddit.com/r/forhonor/comments/7c2a7b/shaman_full_moveset/
If you can't see why people think she is not balanced, then really, what other hero currently has the ability to cancel almost anything into everything. And don't get me started about how late her indicators appear on her i-can-traverse-100m-faster-than-usain-bolt attack. I don't want to see her nerfed to the ground, I want to see her balanced. Take the frustrating and obviously broken BS away and grant her some useful things that would increase her viability in higher-tier play. The same way I hate how the centurion is designed, a hero now considered lacking and with whom i personally have no problems 1v1 (like I don't have with most shamans when its 1v1). Although cent is clearly under-powered and definitely needs to be heavily re-balanced, because he takes away the player's agency from their own heroes, many still consider him OP and/or frustrating to play against. Again, nothing to do with skill, everything to do with design!

Few minor nitpicks:

1) Her damage profile is average to low compared to most top heros. Only her bite stands out damage wise and 1 specific OOS punish.

2) Her having an actual moveset list compared to the pitiful stuff most OG heros have is not really her fault but the original heros issues. The reworks address this some what. But we shouldn't be getting pissy at the devs for actually giving a hero a move list for a fighter. that's silly.

3)Her indicator issue was only on wildcats rage. and I believe that was fixed awhile back. I never see the issue anymore when I VS her. (I was one of the original people to not only spot it but get the devs to look at it. So I know it when I see it.)

4) Shaman doesn't need anything to make her better in high tier. The reason she's less popular in high tier isn't because her kit is failing her. it's because high tier players are good at reading situations and reacting consistently. As I mentioned already every mix up she has has a hard punish of dodge GB. and good players can use the kit specific punishes that hit harder than that. At high level with Shaman you have to be a lot more unpredictable. Where as in mid tier and below people are skittish and lose their momentum after eating one mistake. So shaman eats them up (pun very much intended.)

5) Centurion's design was flawed for 2 primary reasons. One he was designed to specifically address turtling. And two the devs understanding of turtling as a whole and how to actually address it was very lacking and limited. They figured a person who could grapple often and harass with unblockables would be strong enough. And they topped it off with letting him do absurd punishes so the fight wouldn't drag on like they did with turtles back then. But the way this was all implimented was done wrong. And benefitted a turtle more than it did anything to someone who turtled.

Shaman's design isn't flawed. She's just an anomaly. Meaning her actual kit is fine. But she exists in a game where most kits are not designed well. So she seems "broken" to newbs and low tier players. That's because most players don't grasp that the game was the issue and not her. If she was removed/brought down to other kits design wise would people have this misinformed perspective? No. But it still wouldn't be addressing the actual over arching issue. Which again was OG heros (for the most part) having very shallow kit design.

Alustar.exe
07-27-2018, 06:55 PM
But that is exactly my point! CandleInTheDark, don't you see! This is exactly what makes her a terrible designed hero. Her damage numbers are off the chart, her stamina punish is insane, her throw distance coupled with guaranteed headbutt is extremely unrealistic and, to put it as it is, idiotic. And yet, when faced with certain mid-tier heroes that are considered boring and/or under-powered (Shugoki for instance), or players that are extremely good at keeping their cool and do not fall for the unblockable-soft-feint-into-way-too-much, she struggles to the point where she isn't considered a meta pick unless the team is built around her, as you so eloquently stated out. So basically, you have a hero that either stomps newer and less-experienced players to the point where she is the second most hated hero on release (centurion will forever hold that special place in FH history lol, partially because the time it took to re-balance him, although what ubi did to him is not balancing, it is neutering), and who at the same time struggles in the upper tier to the point where she isn't all that picked. As I said, all about design, nothing about skill.

I mean just look at this!
https://www.reddit.com/r/forhonor/comments/7c2a7b/shaman_full_moveset/
If you can't see why people think she is not balanced, then really, what other hero currently has the ability to cancel almost anything into everything. And don't get me started about how late her indicators appear on her i-can-traverse-100m-faster-than-usain-bolt attack. I don't want to see her nerfed to the ground, I want to see her balanced. Take the frustrating and obviously broken BS away and grant her some useful things that would increase her viability in higher-tier play. The same way I hate how the centurion is designed, a hero now considered lacking and with whom i personally have no problems 1v1 (like I don't have with most shamans when its 1v1). Although cent is clearly under-powered and definitely needs to be heavily re-balanced, because he takes away the player's agency from their own heroes, many still consider him OP and/or frustrating to play against. Again, nothing to do with skill, everything to do with design!

Shaman can only soft feint predators mercy/hunger into wild cats rage and vice verse, her heavy finishers, and her zone. And the timing is strict all but her heavy finishers or gap closers provided there is enough distance.
And that is right in line with every other hero. The reason she is picked less often has everything to do with how she gets punished by players that are competent enough to read her feint and react accordingly.

I recently switched over to pc and I can count on one hand how many times I see another shaman in my match ups through it the day. It's not often. Because at the end of the day, shaman is only as good as the player controlling her.

Tyrjo
07-27-2018, 07:20 PM
Shaman can only soft feint predators mercy/hunger into wild cats rage and vice verse, her heavy finishers, and her zone. And the timing is strict all but her heavy finishers or gap closers provided there is enough distance.
And that is right in line with every other hero. The reason she is picked less often has everything to do with how she gets punished by players that are competent enough to read her feint and react accordingly.

I recently switched over to pc and I can count on one hand how many times I see another shaman in my match ups through it the day. It's not often. Because at the end of the day, shaman is only as good as the player controlling her.

She can also soft feint her heavy into a Raven's Bile (bleed stab) which means committing to parrying her is a big risk you are taking. So she has 5 soft feint which is pretty insane actually.

Justicator
07-27-2018, 09:43 PM
I really appreciate the civilized responses from Candle, Raime and alustar, but I still think that in the current state of the game, Shaman is not healthy and making heroes follow her footsteps is actually pretty bad. But that is my opinion and regardless if it is shared by the majority or minority of other players, it is still but a rather insignificant opinion. The sad truth is that I can't wait for some other game to take this awesome concept and bring us the game i think this community deserves, which in my opinion is not FH and especially not where it is headed. But as I said, it is only my opinion. Once again, thanks for the effort and replies :) .

Alustar.exe
07-27-2018, 10:06 PM
"I really appreciate the civilized responses from Alustar"- said no one, ever. I'm not even sure you are in the right universe at this point. XD

But back to being serious, I totally get your opinion. I struggled with Musha on release, and I still struggle with Kensei and berserker. Anyone who is skilled with those two I can bet on losing to. I struggled with Kensei even before his rework. I would even go so far as to say, kit wise they are the truest hard counter to her, given that they have a similarly aggressive style that can utterly shut her down.

Justicator
07-27-2018, 10:16 PM
My frustration does not come from me struggling against shaman, really, I don't struggle against any hero, per se. I just feel that in the current state of the game, she is not healthy, and the fact that it is taking this long to rebalance the rest of the OG cast isn't helping. As a main warden (rep 50) i am extremely worried about the warden rework, because i fear they will only increase his attack speed of lights and give him that wonky charge light and unblockable top heavy finisher, which will still leave him to heavily rely on misero spams against parry-gods and leave him completely unable to deal with dash-unlock-to dodge. No substantial changes, no soft feints like so many others, just more misero spams... that's how much i believe in the balancing team of ubi :(

Knight_Raime
07-27-2018, 11:54 PM
My frustration does not come from me struggling against shaman, really, I don't struggle against any hero, per se. I just feel that in the current state of the game, she is not healthy, and the fact that it is taking this long to rebalance the rest of the OG cast isn't helping. As a main warden (rep 50) i am extremely worried about the warden rework, because i fear they will only increase his attack speed of lights and give him that wonky charge light and unblockable top heavy finisher, which will still leave him to heavily rely on misero spams against parry-gods and leave him completely unable to deal with dash-unlock-to dodge. No substantial changes, no soft feints like so many others, just more misero spams... that's how much i believe in the balancing team of ubi :(

I mean Players shouldn't have expected much with the reworks to begin with. As the goal of said reworks was to make the OG roster's poor identity kit wise viable when looking at dlc heros new mechanics/techniques. Ultimately the best possible course of action would have been for them to spend this whole year redoing the OG roster with new identities so they could have a fully fleshed out roster and not just half arsed designs+actual fighters in the form of dlc heros.
But that's incredibly unrealistic as that's asking them to create basically a brand new roster of heros. What's worse is they haven't even done full reworks on all of the hero's they've touched so far. Adding to the fact that they simply don't want to even touch the idea of reworking most of the dlc roster and well...
I don't mind new heros coming in. and if this game stays around as long as Siege looks like it is i'm sure they will do another revisit to the og roster and the first year dlc heros at some point.

As far as the warden rework iirc:
~side heavy opener and in combo is faster.
~side lights are now 500ms from 600ms.
~new dash attack.
~top combo ender heavy is unblockable. seems a lil faster.
~you can chain a top heavy finisher off of zone.
~crushing counter no longer guarantees a shoulder barge. instead guarantees another light.
~Shoulder barge got a new animation for charging and while in motion.
~Shoulder barge got some time shaved off on start up and full charge time. making it about 100-300ms faster overall from start to charged fully. (I forget the exact numbers.)
~Can cancel into soft feint GB or feint in general on barge all the way up until you hit full charge.

I believe the devs stated that what was leaked on said reworks was not the full picture nor was completely final. so technically there is still room for some surprises.

Justicator
07-28-2018, 02:14 AM
~you can chain a top heavy finisher off of zone.
Ok, I did not know this. Thx for the info.

~Can cancel into soft feint GB or feint in general on barge all the way up until you hit full charge.
Really? You mean like in the old days when you could wait for the opponent to react and then always counter him, only even better now? Really, doesn't this seem a little bit... excessive? I mean as a warden main, yay, but if this is true, I fear that warden will become extra frustrating to play against...

Knight_Raime
07-28-2018, 05:05 PM
~you can chain a top heavy finisher off of zone.
Ok, I did not know this. Thx for the info.

~Can cancel into soft feint GB or feint in general on barge all the way up until you hit full charge.
Really? You mean like in the old days when you could wait for the opponent to react and then always counter him, only even better now? Really, doesn't this seem a little bit... excessive? I mean as a warden main, yay, but if this is true, I fear that warden will become extra frustrating to play against...

It's not going to be anywhere near as bad as pre nerf bash. That's because pre nerf bash had no recovery after canceling and it was super cheap stamina wise. Where as bash cancel has recovery now so you can't spam it. Not to mention they made the time to get to full charge quicker. So you won't have as big of a window to react to things like the pre nerf shoulder bash days. It will be strong for sure. But it's not going to be as broken as it was in the old days.

Justicator
07-28-2018, 06:59 PM
Still a bit underwhelming that they didn't give him any soft feints or H-L combos... The zone to unblockable top heavy seems nice on paper but the stamina cost is what concerns me...

Knight_Raime
07-29-2018, 06:02 AM
Still a bit underwhelming that they didn't give him any soft feints or H-L combos... The zone to unblockable top heavy seems nice on paper but the stamina cost is what concerns me...

As I mentioned in a prior post the devs specifically mentioned that what was leaked was not the final stuff and that their might still be things we are not aware of (or something to that degree. i'm paraphrasing) we'll know in 4 days either way.

Justicator
07-29-2018, 09:52 AM
Ah well... Thanks for the replies raime, this conversation was refreshing :) to the OP, sry for hijacking the post, I'm out :D