PDA

View Full Version : [BUG] Conqueror bash recovery is still immune to Shinobi ranged attacks/guardbreaks



PepsiBeastin
07-16-2018, 01:05 AM
https://i.imgur.com/beK3KJg.gif

Last time I posted about this I had a ****ton of people saying this is intentional which is seriously dumb, why would the recovery of one specific character's specific attack be intentionally immune to a specific move on one specific other hero?

BTTrinity
07-16-2018, 03:19 AM
Its bad enough a recovery hardly exists, but damn thats unfortunate....

CandleInTheDark
07-16-2018, 03:28 AM
The key part is the blue flash that closes, that is what your opponent has to react to, unless they are in something like an unblockable bash which beats any guardbreak attempt. At the time the blue flash closes, conqueror is still in unblockable phase as signified by the orange on his shield, only just but he is, same as last time that is just an unblockable doing its job.

It would have been more obvious on a regular guardbreak why it failed but there really is nothing amiss there.

ArmoredChocobo
07-16-2018, 06:36 AM
I mean a simple CGB or Parry will send Shinobi onto his back to eat 1 or 2 free heavies, so it's not surprising it comes up short vs other moves, too.

We.the.North
07-16-2018, 06:57 AM
The problem here is the inconsistency of backflip baiting attacks into punishes.

Against half the crew, the opponent will suffer from a full sickle rain punish.
Against the other half of the crew, you'll whiff your ranged GB and the Shinobi will get massively punished.

It's hard to build up muscle memory when every single matchup in the game is different for Shinobi. You end up screwing yourself over because you THINK you can do something but the game decides otherwise, which is extremely bad video game design.

Rule #1 of video game : The player must NEVER feel cheated by confusing game mechanics.

CandleInTheDark
07-16-2018, 08:12 AM
The problem here is the inconsistency of backflip baiting attacks into punishes.

Against half the crew, the opponent will suffer from a full sickle rain punish.
Against the other half of the crew, you'll whiff your ranged GB and the Shinobi will get massively punished.

It's hard to build up muscle memory when every single matchup in the game is different for Shinobi. You end up screwing yourself over because you THINK you can do something but the game decides otherwise, which is extremely bad video game design.

Rule #1 of video game : The player must NEVER feel cheated by confusing game mechanics.

Here is the thing though, that conqueror read what Pepsi was going to do because he had an obvious whiff that was going to lead to one of two things, both of which the conqueror player knew he could avoid with his unblockable. I would imagine that the shinobi kit is as different to the conqueror as compared to others as any shinobi player would have but the fault is being predictable using a light whiff to backflip as an opener which anyone at any level would have been able to dodge with the warning he gave if not compose themselves tor eact to whether they needed to parry or counter guardbreak. The other video he posted he did the same thing as a means of dodging an attack but instead of waiting the shield bash that was coming and guardbreaking it on dodge he decided to do something that was unnecessary and wound up being punished for it.

tldr: In both this video and the last his opponent read him better than he read his opponent and what we are seeing isn't gb going through recovery but gb not beating unblockable which is right and proper, the person who does better will be the one who has the better understanding of his opponent's kit. That's been the case since Sun Tzu and I would wager since before him.

PepsiBeastin
07-16-2018, 08:35 AM
Here is the thing though, that conqueror read what Pepsi was going to do because he had an obvious whiff that was going to lead to one of two things, both of which the conqueror player knew he could avoid with his unblockable. I would imagine that the shinobi kit is as different to the conqueror as compared to others as any shinobi player would have but the fault is being predictable using a light whiff to backflip as an opener which anyone at any level would have been able to dodge with the warning he gave if not compose themselves tor eact to whether they needed to parry or counter guardbreak. The other video he posted he did the same thing as a means of dodging an attack but instead of waiting the shield bash that was coming and guardbreaking it on dodge he decided to do something that was unnecessary and wound up being punished for it.

tldr: In both this video and the last his opponent read him better than he read his opponent and what we are seeing isn't gb going through recovery but gb not beating unblockable which is right and proper, the person who does better will be the one who has the better understanding of his opponent's kit. That's been the case since Sun Tzu and I would wager since before him.

IF this was a case of some random 200 IQ conqueror like you seem to be implying, care to elaborate on how shinobi's ranged heavy also whiffs in the exact same manner? I don't recall shield bash making you immune to damage. Any other character's attacks or bashes would've connected with this timing.

https://i.imgur.com/P8IYpS3.gif

Armosias
07-16-2018, 08:50 AM
IF this was a case of some random 200 IQ conqueror like you seem to be implying, care to elaborate on how shinobi's ranged heavy also whiffs in the exact same manner? I don't recall shield bash making you immune to damage. Any other character's attacks or bashes would've connected with this timing.

https://i.imgur.com/P8IYpS3.gif
Care to get us some vid showing it instead of a Shugoki landing his light thanks to superarmor

CandleInTheDark
07-16-2018, 09:05 AM
IF this was a case of some random 200 IQ conqueror like you seem to be implying, care to elaborate on how shinobi's ranged heavy also whiffs in the exact same manner? I don't recall shield bash making you immune to damage. Any other character's attacks or bashes would've connected with this timing.

https://i.imgur.com/P8IYpS3.gif

Shugoki has passive hyperarmour so of course he can tank a hit and still land his own, that is his whole gig and again you are showing you don't know basic things to do with matchups.

Basic things like guardbreaks, close, ranged, whatever, do not land through unblockable bashes.

Vakris_One
07-16-2018, 11:35 AM
This isn't a problem specific to just the Shinobi. Nobody in the entire roster can punish a Conq's shield bash recovery, which frankly feels broken as all hell at this point. It looks particularly bad in that clip with Shinobi as it seems the Conq gets not only near instant recovery after the whiffed bash but also i-frames during the recovery which nullified the ranged GB.

I have no idea how the devs can continue to consider Conq's SB recovery balanced quite frankly.

PepsiBeastin
07-16-2018, 06:58 PM
Shugoki has passive hyperarmour so of course he can tank a hit and still land his own, that is his whole gig and again you are showing you don't know basic things to do with matchups.

Basic things like guardbreaks, close, ranged, whatever, do not land through unblockable bashes.

You're the one missing the point lol. I CHOSE shugoki for the test to show that right after a bash, conqueror isn't immune to damage. It shouldn't be different than dodging it/flipping out then trying to attack, having it pass through him. At the same timing, what is your excuse for shugoki being able to land a hit through hyperarmor, but shinobi not being able to land a ranged attack after a backflip? I'm sure orochi's new riptide is even quicker than the shinobi's ranged heavy/gb after backflip and still hits conqueror if it dodges a bash. The fact of the matter is that this is a bug unique to shinobi. It isn't some matrix level prediction on the conqueror's part, it's just an unintended interaction that punishes shinobi for baiting a shield bash.

CandleInTheDark
07-16-2018, 07:24 PM
You're the one missing the point lol. I CHOSE shugoki for the test to show that right after a bash, conqueror isn't immune to damage. It shouldn't be different than dodging it/flipping out then trying to attack, having it pass through him. At the same timing, what is your excuse for shugoki being able to land a hit through hyperarmor, but shinobi not being able to land a ranged attack after a backflip? I'm sure orochi's new riptide is even quicker than the shinobi's ranged heavy/gb after backflip and still hits conqueror if it dodges a bash. The fact of the matter is that this is a bug unique to shinobi. It isn't some matrix level prediction on the conqueror's part, it's just an unintended interaction that punishes shinobi for baiting a shield bash.

Conqueror isn't immune after the bash, no, but he is immune during it and the counter guardbreak window closed while he was still in the unblockable phase, therefore he beats the guardbreak, same as he would any other guardbreak thrown by any other character, I am not sure what about that you don't quite get. Look at his shield, look at his cgb window, the cgb flash ends before his orange fades, and given I watched your first one a frame at a time because of sucky connection I can tell you that is exactly what happened with that one as well, so ranged gb does not beat conqueror's unblockable bash, that is basic matchup knowledge, use it, get better.

And really you think you baited anything? You used a blatant whiff as an opener, if I am standing the other side of you I know all I have to do is dodge to the side in the next second then use a closer to put pressure on you, better players than me will just CGB or parry you.

PepsiBeastin
07-16-2018, 07:30 PM
Conqueror isn't immune after the bash, no, but he is immune during it and the counter guardbreak window closed while he was still in the unblockable phase, therefore he beats the guardbreak, same as he would any other guardbreak thrown by any other character, I am not sure what about that you don't quite get. Look at his shield, look at his cgb window, the cgb flash ends before his orange fades, and given I watched your first one a frame at a time because of sucky connection I can tell you that is exactly what happened with that one as well, so ranged gb does not beat conqueror's unblockable bash, that is basic matchup knowledge, use it, get better.

And really you think you baited anything? You used a blatant whiff as an opener, if I am standing the other side of you I know all I have to do is dodge to the side in the next second then use a closer to put pressure on you, better players than me will just CGB or parry you.

Wow you really don't listen do you? Shinobi's ranged heavy ALSO passes clean through conqueror, so unless his unblockable makes him immune to damage, it's a bug.

BTTrinity
07-16-2018, 07:34 PM
So after watching that clip quite a bit, heres my input on it....

If you somehow had more space when he threw that GB it probably would have worked, though because you were so close the ranged GB hit him while he was still glowing orange it didnt work, and considering his ranged GB is a projectile with a set speed... the distance would have to be absolutely PERFECT to punish Conqs non-existent recovery.... You have to be a specific distance, any more or less than that distance and it will not work. (I dont know the distance that you need to be for it to work) You CAN do what you want, but its not practical....

Even if Conqs recovery was longer, your GB would still go through him because it hit him while he was glowing.... However, if the ranged heavy goes through the shield bash, then thats a problem because I regularly interrupt shield bash by attacking.

PepsiBeastin
07-16-2018, 07:42 PM
So after watching that clip quite a bit, heres my input on it....

If you somehow had more space when he threw that GB it probably would have worked, though because you were so close the ranged GB hit him while he was still glowing orange, and considering his ranged GB is a projectile with a set speed... the distance would have to be absolutely PERFECT to punish Conqs non-existent recovery.... You have to be a specific distance, any more or less than that distance and it will not work. (I dont know the distance that you need to be for it to work) You CAN do what you want, but its not practical....

I have an older post about this, I was further back at like twice the distance and it had done the same thing.

BTTrinity
07-16-2018, 07:49 PM
I have an older post about this, I was further back at like twice the distance and it had done the same thing.

Like I said, the distance would have to be absolutely PERFECT in order for this punish to work, any MORE OR LESS and it wont.

If its any less, then the result is what you posted

If its any more, then the result is likely hes going to CGB after it hits him.

I need to see this older one to speak for it.

Even if Conqs recovery was longer, your GB would still go through him because it hit him while he was glowing.... However, if the ranged heavy goes through the shield bash, then thats a problem because I regularly interrupt shield bash by attacking.

PepsiBeastin
07-16-2018, 07:56 PM
Like I said, the distance would have to be absolutely PERFECT in order for this punish to work, any MORE OR LESS and it wont.

If its any less, then the result is what you posted

If its any more, then the result is likely hes going to CGB after it hits him.

I need to see this older one to speak for it.

Even if Conqs recovery was longer, your GB would still go through him because it hit him while he was glowing.... However, if the ranged heavy goes through the shield bash, then thats a problem because I regularly interrupt shield bash by attacking.


https://youtu.be/E_5TTRYfsBk
Skip to 2:45, this is an older video I have at higher quality, and you can see I'm a bit further from the conqueror than my gif on this post. I don't 100% buy what candle is saying that if the blue flash doesn't happen in the recovery window, then the entire attack/guardbreak is useless. I'm of the same opinion that the attack is a projectile with travel time, mainly based on it taking more time to hit someone further away, which changes how you can punish someone from different distances. I'll try to find my clip of the ranged heavy glitching through in the same way.


Edit: Found these from an old post. they aren't the best quality but you get the picture, and the last shows an actual heavy just passing through the conqueror.
https://i.imgur.com/KSPTP79.gif
https://i.imgur.com/MLPmtvd.gif
https://i.imgur.com/P3qWHpo.gif

BTTrinity
07-16-2018, 08:10 PM
So, i can understand why ranged GB doesnt work... Ill even show what is happening.

Pic1: This is a picture, AFTER YOUR RANGED GB WINDOW CLOSES... Look at Conqs shield, its not glowing... this is his recovery state

https://i.imgur.com/mvg3cHb.jpg

Pic2: This Picture, is the millisecond your ranged GB connects to him.... Look at conqs shield, its glowing... This means hes immune to gb still

https://i.imgur.com/NO6K50D.jpg

Hopefully I cleared this up for you

A heavy, SHOULD but clearly doesnt work on interrupting him... THAT is an unfortunate bug.

PepsiBeastin
07-16-2018, 08:20 PM
So, i can understand why ranged GB doesnt work... Ill even show what is happening.

Pic1: This is a picture, AFTER YOUR RANGED GB WINDOW CLOSES... Look at Conqs shield, its not glowing... this is his recovery state

https://i.imgur.com/mvg3cHb.jpg

Pic2: This Picture, is the millisecond your ranged GB connects to him.... Look at conqs shield, its glowing... This means hes immune to gb still

https://i.imgur.com/NO6K50D.jpg

Hopefully I cleared this up for you

A heavy, SHOULD but clearly doesnt work on interrupting him... THAT is an unfortunate bug.

I still think its linked to the reason the heavy doesn't work either, but regardless he should not have bash properties after he missed the attack, wouldn't you think? He should lose any state he unblockable or whatever state he gains the moment the attack is missed. Do you know whether kensei or raider can dodge-gb a conqueror right after a missed bash, in this same timing? I know that shugoki's armor can eat the bash and instantly guardbreak conqueror, I don't see why that would work yet shinobi's guardbreak wouldn't. That's a bit of my thought process on why I think it's a shinobi-specific issue since his ranged attacks are unique.

BTTrinity
07-16-2018, 08:27 PM
Its highly likely that the reason the ranged heavy goes through the Conq the way it does, is because is mechanically functions the same as the ranged guardbreak.

Yes, I think the devs should definitely do a tweak specifically between Shinobi and Conq that allows Shinobi to reliably punish Conq with ranged GB's and heavy's.

That is also not a bad idea, he loses bash properties sooner if he whiffs them.

FFS give him a 600ms recovery, I have no idea why its so hard to do this but it NEEDS to happen.