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XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 04:46 PM
I have only a small question. How many P-51 Mustangs did the Soviet Air Force recive?

If anyone can include models and what theatre they mainly served i would be very grateful/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

"Blackburn finally got to make a plane the way they wanted to, they got a solid block of aluminium and drilled holes in it".
Comment on the Blackburn Buccaneer.

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 04:46 PM
I have only a small question. How many P-51 Mustangs did the Soviet Air Force recive?

If anyone can include models and what theatre they mainly served i would be very grateful/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

"Blackburn finally got to make a plane the way they wanted to, they got a solid block of aluminium and drilled holes in it".
Comment on the Blackburn Buccaneer.

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 05:06 PM
10

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Which Colossal Death Robot Are You? (http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/tests/giantrobot/)

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 06:01 PM
Bobsqueek's answer was correct. The Russians got 10.

To provide a little more info, these were RAF Mustang Is (very early types). The Soviet Union received them in 1942. They never entered service and it is believed that no more were delivered.

Best regards to all,
panther3485

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 06:10 PM
Correct. Most of those ten went to various research facilities, like NII VVS, some (three of four) were tested for a short time in the reserve combat units near Moscow, none ever come near frontlines.
But there were additional 12 P-51 (some or all of them P-51D) recovered from liberated territories. At list one of them was tested in NII VVS during the war.


AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

---------------
Ilsa: "That was the day the Germans marched into Paris."
Rick: "Not an easy day to forget. The Germans wore grey, you wore blue."
Ilsa: "Yes. I have put that dress away. When the Germans march out, I'll wear that dress again."

- Casablanca, 1942

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 04:51 PM
What? Only 10? Even the Finns downed a few VVS-mustangs..

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XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 05:17 PM
Vipez- wrote:
- What? Only 10? Even the Finns downed a few
- VVS-mustangs..
---------------------------------------------


Finns "downed" a lot of different aircraft that weren't there at all.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 06:59 PM
It seems that FPS_Stierlitz havent heard of misidentification. The planes were there. Possibly misidentified, but planes were downed as told.

" a lot of different aircraft that weren't there at all. " is quite arrogant sentence overall. The obscure kills are 4 Mustangs, 1 P-38 and several spitfires. PVO Leningrad had Spitfires and PVO regiments took part Fighting in Finnish gulf. Russians had 2-3 flyable P-38's and also Operation Frantic was fought at that time. And now we are wondering 1 kill. Ok, it is possibly misidentification with captured FW-189 (if russians had them /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif ) but there are no planes that look like same. And those 4 Mustangs. Propably misidentification with Yak-9. However Yak-9 was a very frequent sight; why would they have wanted to change it as another plane if it looked like hundreds of sighted Yak's before. (aaahh, of course; to be able to claim to kill a plane made-by-god) And plane with wing-guns is hard to mess up with russian planes. Also russians captured 14 additional Mustangs left behind or force-landed during operation Frantic. I'm sure nobody has certain data what happened to all ot those mentioned above. I wasn't there, I don't KNOW, I can only speculate and look for reliable sources.

We will never know for sure because Russian archives are very poor and often inaccessible. However I give much more credit to veteran's speeches than present day's history investigator or forum-jockey and that's why I dont mock their stories however how absurd they seem to be.

This was NOT intented to flame anything, I only hope that people could have open mind. (And not to be so sure about things they dont *really* know.)

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 07:24 PM
Kannaksen_hanu wrote:
- It seems that FPS_Stierlitz havent heard of
- misidentification.
------------------------------------------------

I am completely aware of misidentification issues.

No offence, but I just couldn't resist to comment on this one. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Never have I heard of P-51 losses in that area.

I am such an arrogant swine. Maybe I am even a commie but I just don't know it. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



Kannaksen_hanu wrote:
- We will never know for sure because Russian archives
- are very poor and often inaccessible
-------------------------------------------------

How do you know ?
Did you send a quiery to the russian ministry of defence archives ? Ever tried to study or just "assume" things ?

XyZspineZyX
08-03-2003, 07:47 PM
The only Russian flyable P-38 was flying right after the end of WW2 on Hungary, I believe, I one of the long range bomber regiments.
No "Russian" Mustangs ever came near flying combat mission.
One of the Russian aces (I believe it was Popkow, not sure) in his memoirs talked about his experience with Mustang in the reserve regiment near Moscow. They (Mustangs) were damaged, there were no spare parts to fix them, and planes were returned to the testing facility they came from.

Finns had to curb their imagination a little.
I am an arrogant swine. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

---------------
Ilsa: "That was the day the Germans marched into Paris."
Rick: "Not an easy day to forget. The Germans wore grey, you wore blue."
Ilsa: "Yes. I have put that dress away. When the Germans march out, I'll wear that dress again."

- Casablanca, 1942

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 05:27 PM
Hi guys!

I guess we're all a little different in the way we choose to think, and sometimes we differ in what we choose to believe, and why.

In relation to many of the threads I've seen on this forum (not just this one), I'd like to humbly offer some ideas.

For me, when considering military history (or history generally, for that matter), it goes something like this:

*Consider the available evidence.

*Cross-reference from a number of different sources, if you can.

*If sources differ significantly, carefully evaluate the PROBABLE credibility of each source.

*Be open minded enough to consider out-of-the-mainstream views, but nevertheless assess such views objectively, in the light of CREDIBLE and/or VERIFIABLE evidence.

*Be on the lookout for fresh information or evidence, that may arise at any time.

*As far as humanly possible, try to set aside one's own desires and prejudices, then make a decision based on rational assessment of evidence.

These are, if you like, 'rules' or 'guidelines' that I have made for myself and I try always to follow them. Occasionally I fail in some way, but hey, that's human.

Don't know if any of this is going to be helpful or stimulate any thought, but I offer it in good faith, just in case.

Best regards to all,
panther3485

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 09:34 PM
I read a book (Written by Finnisha aces, it tells the stories of many FInnish Aces).. Unfortunately I don't remember the books name or the author, since several years have paased.... but it did clearly stated, that they did shoot a few Mustangs down in summer 1944 with the last soviet major offensive.. And I am pretty sure, that the finnish aces were not lying.. and I doubt those aces had misidentetied Yaks from Mustangs, after all Im pretty sure they saw plenty of yaks, to learn their shapes..
so stop antiFAF-whining /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


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XyZspineZyX
08-06-2003, 12:56 PM
Hiya Vipez-

Is it possible that a few of the 12 Mustangs mentioned by Bogun, that were captured from liberated territories, could have seen a bit of action?

I'm assuming that these Mustangs were captured by the Germans during 1944. Could they then have been 're-captured' by Soviet forces? Could some of these Mustangs have been 'cannibalized' for parts, to make a few others serviceable?

I've got no evidence to back any of this up - it's just idle speculation, but if it happened it could explain the alleged sightings by Finnish pilots.

I wish you could remember the name of that book, and the author. I sure would like to read it for myself, so I can make up my own mind.

Best regards,
panther3485

XyZspineZyX
08-06-2003, 01:17 PM
Most of the Mustangs and P-38s that did fly on the Eastern front were flown by the 325th,332nd,31st and 81st fighter groups of the US. There were a few more but I cant remember them all at the moment. They were not Russian..AFAIK no Russian Mustangs were flown during the war at least not to any great effect.

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XyZspineZyX
08-06-2003, 01:26 PM
Hell 10 was all they needed. Yip they could of won the war with only 3 mustangs. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-06-2003, 01:47 PM
SKY_BOSS wrote:
- Hell 10 was all they needed. Yip they could of won
- the war with only 3 mustangs.

that's true

1 for the Leningrad front
1 for the center
1 for the South

and the war is won!!!

We should dig thru the secret archieves of the USSR. I'm sure they used only 3 Mustangs to win the war but when the cold war started they decided not to tell anyone and invented mission reports for all those russian planes we have in the sim now!!!!!!!

2 things we need in FB:
The 110 and the desert!!!
http://exn.ca/news/images/1999/04/23/19990423-Me110coloursideMAIN.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-06-2003, 03:09 PM
Bogun wrote:
-
- Finns had to curb their imagination a little.

How about Soviet claims that they once shot down 4 Bf-109s and 2 Focke-Wulfs (=6) above Kotka when Finns were intercepting them with 5(!) Bf-109s (which all got back home, BTW) and the nearest German FWs were somewhere above the Estonia /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Regards
-Porsimo

XyZspineZyX
08-06-2003, 04:13 PM
Kannaksen_hanu wrote:
- We will never know for sure because Russian archives
- are very poor and often inaccessible.

Not true, Russian archives are extremely complete and you can access WWII material easily. Been there, done that... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

(Dictatorships such as the USSR tend to keep very complete archives, FYI)

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