PDA

View Full Version : Kensei,Raider etc just ruining dominion



Felheric
07-13-2018, 06:09 PM
So I come to this forum now and then and all see is topic about orochi spamming lights nerf shaman allready etc.
But nobody talks about current meta of dominion and it most cancerous "tech" eg locking on different guy with big"weapons guys" while mashing heavys and unblockables making them unparryables, aka very rewarding low risk high reward tech. First of all sorry for my english as it is not my first language but I will try to describe problem as much as I can from my point of wiev whats currently happening.

Raider - with current revenge changes I would say majority raider just went full revenge build, I mean sure why not let the big guy have some respect when he is getting ganged let him beyblade mix up people why not it can be dealt with.
The real issues become in team fights or you getting ganged for example 2v3 against raider team. In teamfights you have atleast one guy who keep eye on him or he goes nuts with whifing locking on different and killing your team while locked on some guy behind, Sure you can punish him for it and interupt as he doesnt have ha outside revenge but keep in mind we are talking random solo queue dominions not premades not competetive, people doesnt always pay attention to that and you cant always be that guy, you may get focused by his teamates. Also many Raiders just condition people to be that "blocking guy" means they wont try to parry anything, they wont throw stuff out unless its safe for them, They will just sit there wait for their time and farm revenge. If you dont have unblockables he just puts you outside lock and autoblock everything. If your team decide to focus him to much he most likely will get revenge and kill most of your team or do serious damage.

2v3 gangked by raider team again very problematic: You cant always position yourself or your teamate so raider doesnt have acces to his "tech" some maps wont just allow you to change position because of enviroment space etc. Just dodge you say, sure sometimes it works most of the times you will get stuffed in heavy blockstun from his teamate, or parry animation if you parry that heavy, or in counterguardbreak animation. Not really hard to do if you know what is your raider doing.
Please I know you should not be supposed to win when your outnumbered, I know there is guarantee stuff ingame when you always get hit, but atleast it require some cordination and timing from opponents and mostly - it doesnt do so much damage to you. Leaving you with chance to get revenge and maybe make something happen or atleast make space for your teamates to do something.

Kensei - Really annoyed how current playstyle of kensei is in dominion aka ultra safe heavys reach everywhere. He is present in every dominion game, very annoying to deal with. So superb defense - mostly also caused by lock on different during his side dash attacks or zone, Its extremely hard to punish kensei in dominion. And even if you manage to read him and parry his side dash attack or zone which are usually not locked onto his current target. You will get so little rewards because rest of your team is either geting hit or in blockstun from his heavy . He can safely shutdown your offense against his teamates who is getting guardbroken or parried while making him safe by just using zone because of its superior reach and 360 movement. If you say just pay attention on his dodge attacks and punish him by yours he can still commit to his hyper armor side heavy of them and trade with you mostly in his favour. So you getting **** punish, no punish, or bad trade.
Kensei in dominions again are very defensive even harder to open up than raiders. Amazing clear on minions, amazing teamfights, very good defense on captured points against gangkers, they will stall forever and you wont avoid to get by his zone or dodge attack everytime if you want to make something happen.
His feat who make his attacks unblockables is complete ridiculous again because often people cant parry it because its not locked on them.

So I ask should be such huge blockstun on heavys which are not locked on you,- effectively disabling you from perfoming action for certain time and making some stuff guarantee and making them such safe moves?
Maybe we should be able to parry unblockables which are not locked on us. thx for reading

Maxime_Qc-
07-13-2018, 10:12 PM
Raider unblockable zone can't be parryed if he's not locked on you.... its the only one to have this abillity.. and its ********

Other than that ... the grenade and bomb are ruining dominion

Mirage6201
07-14-2018, 03:59 AM
Iíve got a video of two raiders wiffing tap into lock switch unblockable. They both hit me and my teammate and they both finish by executing at the same time. I wouldnít mind as much if the damage wasnít so high for the combo if the tap is wiffed.

The Kensei combo to heavy suction cup attack is annoying. Just got to sit and wait when fighting a Kensei. He can out trade almost anyone.

voiddp
07-14-2018, 08:08 AM
Well lol.
So as I understand your problems vs kensei and raider that it is hard to gank them?
Then you should stop ganking and learn to parry these two slowest guys. Its easy and everyone can do that.

Kalrohk
07-14-2018, 10:49 AM
The only thing ruining dominion is chat being set by default in no channel. Im tired of joining matches with no one communicating at all because they have chat by default set to no channel. Honestly as a newer player that has been the biggest turn off. Relying on randoms in a team based game mode that dont chat is annoying as heck..

voiddp
07-14-2018, 03:09 PM
honestly there are enough commands in buttons-autochat to use teamwork for dominion. And when i see people chat in actual chat -its mainly some verbal abuses which dont help at all.

Felheric
07-14-2018, 06:00 PM
Well lol.
So as I understand your problems vs kensei and raider that it is hard to gank them?
Then you should stop ganking and learn to parry these two slowest guys. Its easy and everyone can do that.

Well you didnt understand my problem at all than. I said Its really problematic how they use mechanic such as purposely locking on someone else when perfoming attacks and because of reach and distance their cover with it is super effective with almost no downside to it, I will try make another examples for people to better understand.
Raider is locked onto you but he is starting unblocklable from distance and two of your teamates are in his way,they cant dodge out of it because of reasons I allready mentioned above, he is gonna hit them for 60 dmg and even if you parry his attack you will get round avg 15-20 dmg depands on class you play. So we talking 120 dmg on your teamates for punish of 15-20.

Kensei I didnt talk only of ganging him but sure lets go with that, you kill his entire team, he is holding a point you go there, you have guys with unblockables so kensei cant just sit there and block everything so he is forced either to counter attack or dodge. He will dodge attack and your only way to punish him for it is that all of your teamates are ready to parry a noone knows who he will switch lock into dodge, so he can mix it with empty dodges. He can counter attack with his zone last second swaping targets so again extremely hard to parry. This options for almost all classes can be disabled by just positioning yourself behind them, if you stay for example behind warden and he throw zone to hit your teamates you get free guardbreak, even 400 ms zone from pk can be punished. So his defense is superior to 95% of the cast. And bear in mind we talking dominion if he just stay alive long enough to his teamates to ress or he inflict enough damage on your team that may be allready winning factor for them even if you manage to kill him. So whats the main problem with him.
Zone, heavy, reach, 360, hard to punish, low dmg punish. Super effective with last sec target swap.
Dodge attack, heavy, reach,,can be delayed, effective target swap, low punish.

All of this is apply on team fights and other situation, not 1v1, in 1v1 they cant abuse locking on someone else than you, so its not that good and be dealt with.

I really dont understand this never gang mentality that some people try to implement so if you kill their team on middle or somewhere else, you have cleared minions, you have one guy defending your other point. You will send one guy to duel guy who is defending their point? :rolleyes: No. Because they wont do that also.

Blitzwarrior771
07-14-2018, 08:04 PM
This is ******** talk I dont see 4 Kensei on same team ! I say assassins ruin dominion nerf their speed !

beerbariandh
07-14-2018, 09:05 PM
dominion in my opinion isn't ruined by any one character as annoying as some of them are. It is ruined due to the players who aren't skilled enough to duel or brawl so they gank everyone. Run until they find someone and then are brave enough to turn around, or wait until you are low in health after you beat two players at once and they cheap shot you, then emote over you like they are "the man". which is fine, I mean not everyone can put their pants on without help from mommy. btw this is what im doing while waiting for the servers to get fixed.

voiddp
07-15-2018, 12:43 AM
Well you didnt understand my problem at all than. I said Its really problematic how they use mechanic such as purposely locking on someone else when perfoming attacks and because of reach and distance their cover with it is super effective with almost no downside to it, I will try make another examples for people to better understand.
Raider is locked onto you but he is starting unblocklable from distance and two of your teamates are in his way,they cant dodge out of it because of reasons I allready mentioned above, he is gonna hit them for 60 dmg and even if you parry his attack you will get round avg 15-20 dmg depands on class you play. So we talking 120 dmg on your teamates for punish of 15-20.

Kensei I didnt talk only of ganging him but sure lets go with that, you kill his entire team, he is holding a point you go there, you have guys with unblockables so kensei cant just sit there and block everything so he is forced either to counter attack or dodge. He will dodge attack and your only way to punish him for it is that all of your teamates are ready to parry a noone knows who he will switch lock into dodge, so he can mix it with empty dodges. He can counter attack with his zone last second swaping targets so again extremely hard to parry. This options for almost all classes can be disabled by just positioning yourself behind them, if you stay for example behind warden and he throw zone to hit your teamates you get free guardbreak, even 400 ms zone from pk can be punished. So his defense is superior to 95% of the cast. And bear in mind we talking dominion if he just stay alive long enough to his teamates to ress or he inflict enough damage on your team that may be allready winning factor for them even if you manage to kill him. So whats the main problem with him.
Zone, heavy, reach, 360, hard to punish, low dmg punish. Super effective with last sec target swap.
Dodge attack, heavy, reach,,can be delayed, effective target swap, low punish.

All of this is apply on team fights and other situation, not 1v1, in 1v1 they cant abuse locking on someone else than you, so its not that good and be dealt with.

I really dont understand this never gang mentality that some people try to implement so if you kill their team on middle or somewhere else, you have cleared minions, you have one guy defending your other point. You will send one guy to duel guy who is defending their point? :rolleyes: No. Because they wont do that also.

Haha what i didnt understand? You again are describing how these two characters have some antigank moves and they hard to kill when you are ganking them and can fight back. And you are writing how your entire team cant kill some guy holding a point. LOL git gud. And Kudos to those players that annoyed your ganking team.

ChampionRuby50g
07-15-2018, 02:08 AM
^^ so you think itís perfectly fine for Raider to have a massive exploit that is impossible to parry and confirms over 60 damage in situations when players canít do anything to avoid it? Kudos to players using a bug/exploit to win?

Darkmight_cz
07-15-2018, 02:43 AM
^^ so you think itís perfectly fine for Raider to have a massive exploit that is impossible to parry and confirms over 60 damage in situations when players canít do anything to avoid it? Kudos to players using a bug/exploit to win?

Guys from which source do you taking those numbers 😁 if Iam not mistaken Raiders zone is 50dmg and only if its from chain combo. If you will use just UB its 29 dmg or so.... 😉

ChampionRuby50g
07-15-2018, 02:48 AM
In revenge Iím like 90% sure it will deal over 60 damage.

BlowHard74728
07-15-2018, 02:51 AM
In revenge Iím like 90% sure it will deal over 60 damage.

Can confirm its done 78 on me before

Darkmight_cz
07-15-2018, 05:39 AM
In revenge Iím like 90% sure it will deal over 60 damage.

OK I miss that one. Yes under revenge maybe but as I said only as chained combo. But also I have to say that shugo UB is around 90dmg and there is no need to be chained 😜

voiddp
07-15-2018, 07:06 AM
^^ so you think itís perfectly fine for Raider to have a massive exploit that is impossible to parry and confirms over 60 damage in situations when players canít do anything to avoid it? Kudos to players using a bug/exploit to win?

Yeah its perfectly fine. Stop give people revenge by mindless spam ganking. Start to gank more skillfully. Keep distance from some characters when ganking based on their skills, teamplay... Etc... As Git gut.
If some character easier and faster to kill one on one.. Do that and don't gank. Its easy logic. But you don't want any of those options.. You just want to make fast 3:1 kill of every character.... Well - nope, what a shame lol

ChampionRuby50g
07-15-2018, 08:11 AM
Yeah its perfectly fine. Stop give people revenge by mindless spam ganking. Start to gank more skillfully. Keep distance from some characters when ganking based on their skills, teamplay... Etc... As Git gut.
If some character easier and faster to kill one on one.. Do that and don't gank. Its easy logic. But you don't want any of those options.. You just want to make fast 3:1 kill of every character.... Well - nope, what a shame lol

You do realise that with all the revenge builds going on itís nearly impossible to do a 2v1 without the opponent getting revenge at least once. Itís not about ganking skillfully, itís about bugs and exploits. I guess you thought that the zone flicker bug was ok then, and you didnít care about the unlock tech with Nobushi throwing her zone around and you wouldnít be able to parry it.

Itís not about getting good, because you can be good enough to parry a raider zone. Itís the fact you canít parry it at all when they lock onto someone else, which is clearly a bug/exploit and shouldnít be in the game? Maybe you are one of these people who need this exploit to do even half decent in a game, thatís why you are defending it.

voiddp
07-15-2018, 10:11 AM
You do realise that with all the revenge builds going on itís nearly impossible to do a 2v1 without the opponent getting revenge at least once. Itís not about ganking skillfully, itís about bugs and exploits. I guess you thought that the zone flicker bug was ok then, and you didnít care about the unlock tech with Nobushi throwing her zone around and you wouldnít be able to parry it.

Itís not about getting good, because you can be good enough to parry a raider zone. Itís the fact you canít parry it at all when they lock onto someone else, which is clearly a bug/exploit and shouldnít be in the game? Maybe you are one of these people who need this exploit to do even half decent in a game, thatís why you are defending it.
Again 2 vs 1 gank problems. How pityfull. Learn to do something more than spamming hits. Like dodging, rolling. You have eyes right? You can see raider poping revenge and you still there where he can zone you? You have no options to back out or dodge? I can guess you play orochi and just spam people to death with lights and don't have any time to think about not doing tap tap tap endlessly. Well that's orochi for you... xD
Game need to have mechanics to defend vs newb ganking. And game needs even more of them for even newbs to be able to do that easier with more characters. And not other way around

ChampionRuby50g
07-15-2018, 11:07 AM
Again 2 vs 1 gank problems. How pityfull. Learn to do something more than spamming hits. Like dodging, rolling. You have eyes right? You can see raider poping revenge and you still there where he can zone you? You have no options to back out or dodge? I can guess you play orochi and just spam people to death with lights and don't have any time to think about not doing tap tap tap endlessly. Well that's orochi for you... xD
Game need to have mechanics to defend vs newb ganking. And game needs even more of them for even newbs to be able to do that easier with more characters. And not other way around

I can tell you havenít played this game for long. Avoid spamming hits, it doesnít matter. Each hit, connected or whiffed, will give your opponent revenge when they are outnumbered. The amount of hits only makes revenge come quicker, but either way itís still gonna come. You do also realise if your solution is to ďjust rollĒ itís not a balanced mechanic? You can see revenge been used, but what if you are playing with random teammates who wonít move either and you end up been stuck and body blocked and canít get out of the way in time? Seen plenty of raider zones track a roll and connect as well.

Youíve also guessed completely wrong. I donít even have Orochi unlocked, let alone any play time with the hero. So nice try. What you are failing to see though is that this is not a game mechanic, itís a bug and thus an exploit. The developers never intended for Raider to be able to throw out zones dealing upwards of 50 damage as an anti-gank tool. That is not supposed to be in the game, how many times do you need to be told? You also show your inexperience in thinking itís a character issue not having enough exploits to deal with a gank, when itís actually much deeper than that. Itís to do with map design, player communication and player smarts. Not just which hero you play.

If this is your user profile: https://fhtracker.com/profile/pc/voiddp

I can take from that you really donít have that much experience in the game, compared to me.

https://fhtracker.com/profile/xbox/Slab%20of%20VB%20Cans

Iíve learnt plenty off how to combat ganks, how to gank, but here you are saying all I would do is spam attacks. Not the case at all. My issue isnít with ganks and revenge, my issue is the exploit and bugs in game.

Felheric
07-15-2018, 02:40 PM
Well some clearly dont have understanding how certain mechanincs in the game works and think people gets revenge only when they outnumbered and getting spammed by attacks.I made few examples how can be used in 3v2 against you or in big teamfights. Lets not bother to reply them anymore As they cant comprehend what is the problem we dealing with.



OK I miss that one. Yes under revenge maybe but as I said only as chained combo. But also I have to say that shugo UB is around 90dmg and there is no need to be chained ��

Yes thats true shugoki can abuse this mechanic also but its not that effective and I will tell you why.
He has to stay stationary to wind up his unblocklable so its easier to spot and react to accordingly, its more difficult for his teamates unless they are premade or friend with coms, to blockstun, guardbreak in correct moment. It can be done dont get me wrong but its very telegraphed beforehand thus easier to dodge or roll away.
The point you made that he has to do chain to unlock full dmg is in fact advantage for him. As he can safely reposition himself by whifing stuning tap or light to bring him more towards the target his gonna lock diff unblocklable with. So he can stay relative safe range and do it when situation right for him. (he is also flicking your block indicator while doing this so you dont know if he is real attacking or whiffing which making situation even more confusing.
If chains require to hit confirm, or blockconfirm with you current target to acces the damage sure that would made this "tech" very hard to do. But it doesnt work like that.
Please keep in mind in terms of raider we talking situation like team fights,-
- Team fights Raider gets revenge,
- Team fights raider teamates pressure other team enough so he is able to do this whiffs without being interupted,
- Raider team is ganging other team in 3v2 or 4v3,4v2.
I never said in this topic as people trying to implement I am getting hit when ganging raider, I have no problem respecting his revenge and act accordingly to it. All this unavoidable problems come into play when he is with teamates

MuscleTech12018
07-15-2018, 02:49 PM
I laugh so hard when i see people compaining about a low tier, underpowered raider .. hahahahah

Mirage6201
07-15-2018, 04:22 PM
^ Raider is in the top in 4s. We are not talking about 1s.

Erhanninja
07-15-2018, 05:09 PM
If you look at team matches there is always 1 raider. Because he can grab somebody and finish him off instantly with gank.

What I want to see is some mechanic changes to Raider grab Shugoki hug LB impale etc etc. These are very cheap moves doesnít help the quality of the game at all. Maybe Raider can drop if somebody attacks or take more damage I donít know...I remember one time a raider grabbed me on full health and a HL took 95% of my health and raider wasnít even half way running . Or another time Raider grabbing me coming from other side and there are 4 people between us. Oh also worth mentioning LB gets impale on heavy parry coz attack itself is light and result is ledge or wallsplat.

Charmzzz
07-15-2018, 11:08 PM
I agree with the OP. Both Raider and Kensei are massively annoying in Dominion. I rather fight 4 Assassins any time than facing a Team of Raider, Kensei, Lawbringer and a Warlord...

Helnekromancer
07-16-2018, 04:08 AM
Thought I was the only one who couldn't parry his zone in ganks, oh man **** Raiders, that's ********. Other than that I don't have a problem with Raider or Kensei on Xbox, it's mostly the broken *** feats that the dev team refuses to look at. Removes Nobushi's Blissful Rest because it was deemed "To hard to balance" but sees Lawbringer with 3 bombs in his pocket and says it's fine.

Just tone down the nukes, either give the Catapult, Spearstorm, more start-up or make the radius and damage smaller and up the friendly fire. And make Kiai reduce half your stamina or none at all and keep the stun. Having a Orochi/Shinobi run up to you and press Left on the D-pad and taking all your stamina is dumb as hell. Also the cooldown on it is really low, you can use it to win one fight and by the time the person you killed comes back for revenge you almost have it back up. I know there are more broken feats but I'm just stating the ones I see the most.