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View Full Version : Why the upcoming tiandi is strong. Your thoughts guys.



RexXZ347
07-10-2018, 11:45 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2aV04CoBwUQ

Any thoughts on this? I think it's pretty cancerous, the next shaman only better, especially his invulnerability to gb from lights and unblockable. Plus the dodge that can evade 2 continuous attack. I think he is a shaman v2.0 Thoughts and comments guys?

RenegadeTX2000
07-11-2018, 12:24 AM
2 more characters that beat highlander. lmao

HazelrahFirefly
07-11-2018, 02:15 AM
I've watched some vids and I think the Tiandi seems close to balanced and fair. Nothing too crazy going on.

The Shaolin on the other hand... he's the disease that cancer is scared of. I expect to quit this game indefinitely in October.

Vakris_One
07-11-2018, 05:06 AM
Since when is it that "only a small number of people" can dodge a 600ms bash from neutral? That was a very strange comment by Freeze.

The Tiandi fills a playstyle role very similiar to that of Kensei, which is that he is very good at punishing ultra agressive plays against him but he also has a way to force a reaction from turtles via palm strike. Where the Kensei is about generating opportunities to chain into his heavy finisher the Tiandi is more about short bursts of quick one-two poke chains. Both of them operate on a basis of using soft feint mind games. The Kensei's is the more extensive one as it flows throughout his entire moveset while the Tiandi's is locked down to his ability to cancel his dodge strikes and create various combinations from dodge strike feints.

If you're going to just be throwing out lights at Tiandi while he's dodging about, expecting to get lucky and nab him - like Freeze demonstrated - then you can expect to get clobbered. One of his glaring weaknesses, and something Freeze didn't mention, is that his dodge strike heavy takes so long to actually hit that Tiandi cannot punish most attacks with it including most other dodge strikes. The opponent has enough time to recover and block or even parry it if Tiandi let's it fly without cancelling it. His go to tactic therefore will almost always be a soft feint into a light dodge strike or another heavy dodge strike - both of which can be blocked on reaction if the Tiandi spends too long soft feinting his dodges. Something his opponent can take advantage of by anticipating and baiting him or by standing their ground and waiting to block/parry knowing full well the Tiandi cannot chain an unblockable palm strike or kick until first committing to land a heavy from their dodge strike or successfully hitting you with a light dodge strike.

Spliced offers a much more in-depth look into Tiandi's full kit that I would recommend watching:

https://youtu.be/srLHhC95Gl4

Keep in mind this character isn't due out until October and things could change about him.

Knight_Raime
07-11-2018, 05:45 AM
As far as duels concerned he's going to probably be A tier. A lot of his play focuses around his dodge play. And dodge play is notoriously bad in duels. His actual dodge heavy while having lots of I frames is too slow to punish anything reliably on reaction barring anything that has absurd recovery frames like finisher attacks. There for all an opponent has to do is turtle up whenever tiandi initates a dodge attack and then punish whatever he chooses to cancel into.

Dragon kick? Doesn't guarantee anything in the open. And the spacing has to be perfect when near a surface. So it too like his dodge heavy is always going to need to be canceled. Otherwise people will just dodge GB it since it has absurd recovery frames. Tiandi has decent neutral play in his palm strike and 400ms delayble comboed lights. Though that palm is only doable raw or after a light. if you could do it from his kick or dodge heavy then both of those moves would be more viable. That being said his OOS pressure is strong. Because he can threaten with an undodgable light. And even if you block that you get palm strike guaranteed due to hit stun.
Basically put you're forced to commit to a parry as your only defense.

I can't speak on 4's.

RexXZ347
07-11-2018, 07:26 AM
Maybe some characters needs to be buffed or reworked to compete with other higher tier characters.

CandleInTheDark
07-11-2018, 02:11 PM
Ok so here is the thing to be careful of. What you have there is one view based on one person's experiences and that person can give out his view because he isn't under NDA.

More than just that one person have played both with and against both Shaolin and Tiandi, only we are not able to go into why we agree or disagree on certain points or give a counter argument because we are still under NDA.

What I will say and all I feel confident in being able to say is that I don't find either character to be that bad and I am far from an elite level gamer, I fought as them and I fought many of them over four days, like with any other they have drawbacks and a month after release there will be mains saying that they need buffs becuase their one or two tricks have been figured out and they have to mindgame now. That has been pretty par for the course with all of the DLC characters.

SpaceJim12
07-11-2018, 02:38 PM
Well, while I have some concerns about Shaolin, cause he looks too much for me, I see no reasons to call Tiandi OP. He is good, for sure. But what else do you expect? But mostly he looks like char that will give you a tons of fun. Really, look at this kick. Like old school Kung Fu movies. I don't care it's have no guaranteed dmg, or something, just looks awesome. What bother me way more it's a new mechanics, that could be added to new chars. Like assassin ability to punch you, if you block her attack (rumors). I think this type of mechanics should be added to all roster, or should not exist at all.

P.S. Still, remember two two things.1) All new chars will be OP when released. Cent, Shino, Glad. I see almost noone today, who can't CGB Shino range GB. I see noone, who have problem with Gladiator at all. New chars will always be OP, until people get used to them. 2) Devs can't work for nothing.=) They should made this new guys a bit cooler, than old roster to sell enough Season Pass copies. And it's ok, some problem moves, if it's happend, will be fixed, same as Cent combo did.

RexXZ347
07-11-2018, 03:45 PM
Ok so here is the thing to be careful of. What you have there is one view based on one person's experiences and that person can give out his view because he isn't under NDA.

More than just that one person have played both with and against both Shaolin and Tiandi, only we are not able to go into why we agree or disagree on certain points or give a counter argument because we are still under NDA.

What I will say and all I feel confident in being able to say is that I don't find either character to be that bad and I am far from an elite level gamer, I fought as them and I fought many of them over four days, like with any other they have drawbacks and a month after release there will be mains saying that they need buffs becuase their one or two tricks have been figured out and they have to mindgame now. That has been pretty par for the course with all of the DLC characters.

And what's NDA about it?

CandleInTheDark
07-11-2018, 04:09 PM
And what's NDA about it?

I am not saying that video is NDA, I am saying I cannot debate that video without myself breaking an NDA I signed which is why youtubers that have been given permission to show content should be putting across a balanced view rather than kneejerk reactions and already starting the hate train.

RexXZ347
07-11-2018, 04:16 PM
Since when is it that "only a small number of people" can dodge a 600ms bash from neutral? That was a very strange comment by Freeze.

The Tiandi fills a playstyle role very similiar to that of Kensei, which is that he is very good at punishing ultra agressive plays against him but he also has a way to force a reaction from turtles via palm strike. Where the Kensei is about generating opportunities to chain into his heavy finisher the Tiandi is more about short bursts of quick one-two poke chains. Both of them operate on a basis of using soft feint mind games. The Kensei's is the more extensive one as it flows throughout his entire moveset while the Tiandi's is locked down to his ability to cancel his dodge strikes and create various combinations from dodge strike feints.

If you're going to just be throwing out lights at Tiandi while he's dodging about, expecting to get lucky and nab him - like Freeze demonstrated - then you can expect to get clobbered. One of his glaring weaknesses, and something Freeze didn't mention, is that his dodge strike heavy takes so long to actually hit that Tiandi cannot punish most attacks with it including most other dodge strikes. The opponent has enough time to recover and block or even parry it if Tiandi let's it fly without cancelling it. His go to tactic therefore will almost always be a soft feint into a light dodge strike or another heavy dodge strike - both of which can be blocked on reaction if the Tiandi spends too long soft feinting his dodges. Something his opponent can take advantage of by anticipating and baiting him or by standing their ground and waiting to block/parry knowing full well the Tiandi cannot chain an unblockable palm strike or kick until first committing to land a heavy from their dodge strike or successfully hitting you with a light dodge strike.

Spliced offers a much more in-depth look into Tiandi's full kit that I would recommend watching:

https://youtu.be/srLHhC95Gl4

Keep in mind this character isn't due out until October and things could change about him.

Spliced haven't said that he is strong. And yet if you listen to what he's saying he is like implying that tiandi is S tier. While spliced showed a begginers guide. Freeze have pointed of tiandis exploits. So they have 2 different topic into this character. Plus tiandi have alot of 50/50 moves like light, palm strike feint to dragon dodge light. Dragon dodge light is a move that when you dodge it will 100% hit. So it is like a warden shoulder bash or highlander kick tocamber toss that you need to dodge back, but here, the light is a sure hit. He has 400ms lights and alot of 50/50 so i think he is an S tier character.

CandleInTheDark
07-11-2018, 04:16 PM
What bother me way more it's a new mechanics, that could be added to new chars. Like assassin ability to punch you, if you block her attack (rumors). I think this type of mechanics should be added to all roster, or should not exist at all.

We have attack on block with the Centurion and the devs showed us Tiandi's on the Den they went over him, so I am not so much worried about the Nuxia's so long as it is reactable. Mind you I definitely plan on putting a lot of time into her regardless of moveset and how good or bad it is, I like the attitude she has in the trailer and intend to get all the Wu Lin repped to eight in any case.

I would like to see more moves on being blocked in the game, I believe they are a good way of forcing a reaction without adding ever more 400ms lights.

Knight_Raime
07-11-2018, 05:16 PM
We have attack on block with the Centurion and the devs showed us Tiandi's on the Den they went over him, so I am not so much worried about the Nuxia's so long as it is reactable. Mind you I definitely plan on putting a lot of time into her regardless of moveset and how good or bad it is, I like the attitude she has in the trailer and intend to get all the Wu Lin repped to eight in any case.

I would like to see more moves on being blocked in the game, I believe they are a good way of forcing a reaction without adding ever more 400ms lights.

Slight difference. Jim is referring to the fact that the assassin Nuixa if you block specific attacks from her net her free damage. centurion doesn't get anything guaranteed when you block an attack of his. What you're speaking about wanting is being able to continue an attack string for pressure/mix ups on block. Which a few heros in the game currently have. And I agree. We need more of that.

RexXZ347
07-11-2018, 05:21 PM
https://youtu.be/rAybV7PLjH4

Here is a duel of spliced and zero craic. Spliced is being owned by only winning 2 rounds out of 15 rounds they had. Listen to spliced comments. The shaolin i believe is in A tier and yet he got owned. And i believe craic and spliced are of almost equal skills. What more of lawbringer, aramusha, valk, centurion fighting this character? So this duel gave me insights of what tiandi is gonna be.

CandleInTheDark
07-11-2018, 05:23 PM
Slight difference. Jim is referring to the fact that the assassin Nuixa if you block specific attacks from her net her free damage. centurion doesn't get anything guaranteed when you block an attack of his. What you're speaking about wanting is being able to continue an attack string for pressure/mix ups on block. Which a few heros in the game currently have. And I agree. We need more of that.

The devs said there are some moves she can do that will give her damage, the thing I was pointing out is at no point did they claim that damage was guaranteed, the question will be if it is, if there are some that are or some that give a chance for more damage but are reactable or punishable. As they say, the devil is in the detail and we don't have a lot of it.

SpaceJim12
07-11-2018, 05:28 PM
Slight difference. Jim is referring to the fact that the assassin Nuixa if you block specific attacks from her net her free damage. centurion doesn't get anything guaranteed when you block an attack of his. What you're speaking about wanting is being able to continue an attack string for pressure/mix ups on block. Which a few heros in the game currently have. And I agree. We need more of that.

Yes, exactly!
And I agree, we could use more mechanics.=) I just afraid that after Wu Lin released we will need another round of reworks for old roster. Same happened with soft feint in my opinion. It's really better, than classic cancel. But while most of reworked guys and half of DLC chars have it, some old ones really need some soft feints. And I'm affraid something like that could happend with this attack after block.
Don't get me wrong, new mechanics is great, but when each of hero could have em.

Knight_Raime
07-11-2018, 05:47 PM
The devs said there are some moves she can do that will give her damage, the thing I was pointing out is at no point did they claim that damage was guaranteed, the question will be if it is, if there are some that are or some that give a chance for more damage but are reactable or punishable. As they say, the devil is in the detail and we don't have a lot of it.

iirc during the IGN interview with roman when Nuixa was briefly mentioned he said that when some of her attacks were blocked that she gets guaranteed damage. But I could be remembering wrong. I'm betting not though just because Nuxia's "unique" aspects are supposed to be her being able go grab peoples weapons to do damage and being able to combine said weapons to do long range attacks. If it was her just being able to continue to maybe get damage on block it wouldn't be worth noting since a handful of heros can already do that. And as I mentioned this was one of her specific things that was pegged to be unique to her.


Yes, exactly!
And I agree, we could use more mechanics.=) I just afraid that after Wu Lin released we will need another round of reworks for old roster. Same happened with soft feint in my opinion. It's really better, than classic cancel. But while most of reworked guys and half of DLC chars have it, some old ones really need some soft feints. And I'm affraid something like that could happend with this attack after block.
Don't get me wrong, new mechanics is great, but when each of hero could have em.


That won't happen. The point of the OG roster touch ups is to make their kits "theme" work with what the devs have learned over the year ish of designing heros and getting our feedback. No rework that they've already done or will do is ever going to put them on par in terms of kit functionality compared to these new heros and beyond. That's not the point. Berzerker is a decent example here of a kit that will forever be functionally useful despite how much better other new heros will be simply because of how they added in armor and unblockables to his kit. If they were to change him even more he wouldn't be berzerker anymore.

And soft feints are not inherently better than hard feints. Soft feints exist to enable mix ups. Unblockables can also do this if you have hard feint capability. (as not all unblockables can be hard feinted.) Hard feints exist to punish aggressive play. Soft feints exist to punish passive play.

Vakris_One
07-12-2018, 03:31 AM
Spliced haven't said that he is strong. And yet if you listen to what he's saying he is like implying that tiandi is S tier. While spliced showed a begginers guide. Freeze have pointed of tiandis exploits. So they have 2 different topic into this character. Plus tiandi have alot of 50/50 moves like light, palm strike feint to dragon dodge light. Dragon dodge light is a move that when you dodge it will 100% hit. So it is like a warden shoulder bash or highlander kick tocamber toss that you need to dodge back, but here, the light is a sure hit. He has 400ms lights and alot of 50/50 so i think he is an S tier character.
Well I've played Tiandi in the tech test as well and nothing he does is a 50/50 but since I'm not a Youtuber I'm still under NDA so I can't go more in-depth than that - as silly as that statement sounds. Youtuber signs NDA to not make content public > proceeds to get permission to make content public. Average Joe pleb signs NDA > Ubi muzzles average Joe pleb to not even be able to discuss Youtuber NDA content that was made public.

\_(ツ)_/

Anywho... All I can say is that as with any new DLC hero the more you fight against him the more ways you will learn how to react to him. Tiandi is A tier.

Knight_Raime
07-12-2018, 04:11 AM
well i've played tiandi in the tech test as well and nothing he does is a 50/50 but since i'm not a youtuber i'm still under nda so i can't go more in-depth than that - as silly as that statement sounds. Youtuber signs nda to not make content public > proceeds to get permission to make content public. Average joe pleb signs nda > ubi muzzles average joe pleb to not even be able to discuss youtuber nda content that was made public.

\_(ツ)_/

anywho... All i can say is that as with any new dlc hero the more you fight against him the more ways you will learn how to react to him. Tiandi is a tier.

quick vakris gib me all the valk details or i keep your children ;ddd

SpaceJim12
07-12-2018, 09:51 AM
And soft feints are not inherently better than hard feints. Soft feints exist to enable mix ups. Unblockables can also do this if you have hard feint capability. (as not all unblockables can be hard feinted.) Hard feints exist to punish aggressive play. Soft feints exist to punish passive play.

Well, I always think all feints here to punish passive turtle play, but maybe I use hard feint wrong.=)


quick vakris gib me all the valk details or i keep your children ;ddd

And add Warden here, or I will help Raime. =D

CandleInTheDark
07-12-2018, 11:13 AM
iirc during the IGN interview with roman when Nuixa was briefly mentioned he said that when some of her attacks were blocked that she gets guaranteed damage. But I could be remembering wrong. I'm betting not though just because Nuxia's "unique" aspects are supposed to be her being able go grab peoples weapons to do damage and being able to combine said weapons to do long range attacks. If it was her just being able to continue to maybe get damage on block it wouldn't be worth noting since a handful of heros can already do that. And as I mentioned this was one of her specific things that was pegged to be unique to her.

Just looked up the video on IGN's youtube, Roman's words were something along the lines of if you block she can grab your weapon and from there can start combos and do some damage.

From that my initial belief is that grabbing your weapon itself is going to be reaction based (it could be automatic but only certain deflects are), from there my hope is that similar to the Aramusha there is an attack or a couple that are guaranteed but either do stamina damage or low health damage and a heavier damage attack that can be reacted to if the oponent is looking for it.

That is all speculation though, I could be wrong, I could be right, all we have is one sentence on her playstyle from a dev and a line in the news piece on the Marching Fire update part of their site that says she can link her weapons together for range.

Vakris_One
07-12-2018, 12:35 PM
quick vakris gib me all the valk details or i keep your children ;ddd


And add Warden here, or I will help Raime. =D
Ha! You can keep the little buggers. With them gone I'll have more time for playing games :p

CandleInTheDark
07-12-2018, 12:42 PM
quick vakris gib me all the valk details or i keep your children ;ddd


And add Warden here, or I will help Raime. =D



Full details of the Valkyrie and Warden reworks

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Will be revealed on a future Warrior's Den at 12 Eastern 1 Central 5 GMT 6 Central Europe, all details will be in a recap.

SpaceJim12
07-12-2018, 01:15 PM
Will be revealed on a future Warrior's Den

Future, hah. Like...August 2nd?

Borch3Jackdaws
07-12-2018, 01:26 PM
Tiandi's moveset looks amazing , but the problem is that he has all the tools in the game (except the Shugoki's Armor) .. which makes other classes look primitive.
Giving all the tools to a single character kills the game character archetype idea / concept.
I know that some people consider FH a fighting game and some not , but let me tell you something about Fighting Games - 50/50 or resets that cannot be escaped lead to poor gameplay and fast burnout from the community.
Look at the NRS and their Mortal Kombat X and Injustice 2 - 2 games that have 50/50 and general guess game at its core as well as insane fast openers and the only reason we see them in Tournaments nowdays ... is because NRS Pays well (not because the games are good or cool).

400MS Light that tracks , has dodge properties and leads to unblockable punch that leads to a another light is not professional and not competitive - it's a joke and a thing that should not be implemented when the big patch comes in October.

SpaceJim12
07-12-2018, 01:59 PM
Giving all the tools to a single character kills the game character archetype idea / concept.

Say it to Shaolin. He IS char who have all tools. All mechanics.=) Even reflex guard.

Borch3Jackdaws
07-12-2018, 02:01 PM
I forgot to mention the Shaolin yes , but i guess people understood my whole idea.

SpaceJim12
07-12-2018, 03:04 PM
I forgot to mention the Shaolin yes , but i guess people understood my whole idea.

Well, I can't see how Tiandi could be char with all tools. Same moves, than Kensei have, some of it better, sure. Let's say, where the difference between Palm Strike and Pommel Strike? Same move in the end. Yes, I see some moves we all will suffer from, but again, almost every char have it.

Shaolin, on other hand, looks too much for me. But while I can't try him/vs.him, I hold my opinion. I consider some old roster chars as absolut OP, but change my mind, when played as them.

And again, don't forget, that devs have to sell Season Pass, and new heroes must looks awesome, to make people buy them.=)

RexXZ347
07-12-2018, 03:28 PM
Well I've played Tiandi in the tech test as well and nothing he does is a 50/50 but since I'm not a Youtuber I'm still under NDA so I can't go more in-depth than that - as silly as that statement sounds. Youtuber signs NDA to not make content public > proceeds to get permission to make content public. Average Joe pleb signs NDA > Ubi muzzles average Joe pleb to not even be able to discuss Youtuber NDA content that was made public.

\_(ツ)_/

Anywho... All I can say is that as with any new DLC hero the more you fight against him the more ways you will learn how to react to him. Tiandi is A tier.

Just watching his moves he got alot of openers and 50/50. I haven't played it but as you can clearly see, spliced got owned even if he says he does everything to win. I also watch spliced tiandi guides and definitely. Alot of 50/50.

RexXZ347
07-12-2018, 03:31 PM
Well, I can't see how Tiandi could be char with all tools. Same moves, than Kensei have, some of it better, sure. Let's say, where the difference between Palm Strike and Pommel Strike? Same move in the end. Yes, I see some moves we all will suffer from, but again, almost every char have it.


Nah dude, aramusha got nothing. Spam lights? Too predictable.

SpaceJim12
07-12-2018, 03:45 PM
Nah dude, aramusha got nothing. Spam lights? Too predictable.

What does it have to do with Aramusha? o_o I told about Tiandi and Kensei.

CandleInTheDark
07-12-2018, 03:50 PM
Just watching his moves he got alot of openers and 50/50. I haven't played it but as you can clearly see, spliced got owned even if he says he does everything to win. I also watch spliced tiandi guides and definitely. Alot of 50/50.

You keep basing your opinion on one video of Craic vs Spliced it seems. If you keep looking you will see that Craic also beat Spliced in mirror matches of each character. All what you are referring to proves is that Zero_Craic picked up the new characters quicker than Spliced did.

Vakris_One
07-12-2018, 03:59 PM
Just watching his moves he got alot of openers and 50/50. I haven't played it but as you can clearly see, spliced got owned even if he says he does everything to win. I also watch spliced tiandi guides and definitely. Alot of 50/50.
If you're referring to his mirror match with Zero Craic all that showed was that Craic had gotten to grips with Tiandi faster than Spliced. I don't know how you can infer that because Craic beat Spliced that means Tiandi is OP when both of them were using the same character.

I think you can appreciate that watching a hero and actually playing as them and fighting them are two different things. If I only watched videos of heroes like Aramusha, Beserker, Kensei, Orochi and Shaman for example I could easily wrongly assume that all of them are full of 50/50s. In reality none of them have a 50/50 but I wouldn't know that until I played them/played against them.

You'll have a chance to play Tiandi yourself at some point, pretty sure there's going to be an open beta before release. Then you'll see he has no 50/50s.

RexXZ347
07-13-2018, 12:31 PM
What does it have to do with Aramusha? o_o I told about Tiandi and Kensei.

I mean that when every character have something we suffer on. Aramusha doesn't have anything skilled players can suffer on. He is just a good sidekick.

RexXZ347
07-13-2018, 12:35 PM
https://youtu.be/-FYM0N9dMAg

So shmolty also said tiandi is broken. I am on a perspective of a console player using an underpowered character guys. Where reaction is very hard on a 30fps and on an analog stick controller. Some character have more edges than the other. That's why this game isn't balanced. Some characters have 50/50 moves. Some have unblockables.

RexXZ347
07-13-2018, 12:38 PM
If I only watched videos of heroes like Aramusha, Beserker, Kensei, Orochi and Shaman for example I could easily wrongly assume that all of them are full of 50/50s. In reality none of them have a 50/50 but I wouldn't know that until I played them/played against them.

Wait wait wait, did you just said shaman has no 50/50? Do you know he got alot of 50/50? With that being said it's more hard to believe you right now. Plus, i have played for honor since it's release and from experiences from playing against heroes with cancerous moves. Tiandi have better of those moves. Like for example is the heavy to 400ms light. Even if you blocked the heavy the light is a sure hit (block animation/reflex guard). What about the palm strike and kick? They are a sure edge killer or when a centurion is beside the tiandi. It is a good gank strategy. Shaolin and Tiandi have alot of unblockable and unreactable moves (again, console) that old character have to do double effort just to kill these characters. I agree that skills do a big part in this game. But what weapon (character) you use also do a big part in this game.

Alustar.exe
07-13-2018, 12:45 PM
https://youtu.be/-FYM0N9dMAg

So shmolty also said tiandi is broken. I am on a perspective of a console player using an underpowered character guys. Where reaction is very hard on a 30fps and on an analog stick controller. Some character have more edges than the other. That's why this game isn't balanced. Some characters have 50/50 moves. Some have unblockables.

"Momma said that, momma said, momma said that... Tiandi OP cause all the YouTubers like shmolty think they OP, so it must be true."

"I got news for you buddy. Yoh momma is WRONG!"

Stop hanging on the bias words of YouTube trolls who only sell to increase their own ratings and subs. These heroes aren't even in live play. There is no reason to start a hate train claiming something that isn't even out yet is OP.

You guys are such blind lemmings.

Alustar.exe
07-13-2018, 12:48 PM
Wait wait wait, did you just said shaman has no 50/50? Do you know he got alot of 50/50? With that being said it's more hard to believe you right now.
Please tell us, what you think 50/50 is so I can show you how wrong you are...

CandleInTheDark
07-13-2018, 12:56 PM
https://youtu.be/-FYM0N9dMAg

So shmolty also said tiandi is broken. I am on a perspective of a console player using an underpowered character guys. Where reaction is very hard on a 30fps and on an analog stick controller. Some character have more edges than the other. That's why this game isn't balanced. Some characters have 50/50 moves. Some have unblockables.

So here is the thing, people have looked at these new characters and decided I don't want to use them. Now most that care about the health of the game would leave it at that, the thing is they have their ratings and revenue to think about. People don't get subscriptions and views, and so revenue, just by playing the game, they get a following and they pander to that following, get enough of them saying the same thing about characters that they dislike and they get the people who follow them saying it as well, I've been part of this community since day one, it has happened every season. Streamers by and large (not talking everyone here) do not care about the health of the game nearly as much as they care about views, only now instead of two weeks those so inclined have three months to get the hate ball rolling and a relatively free platform to because the rest of us are under NDA.

As to the console argument, that is an old tired myth. At most the difference in FPS is a 33ms difference, unless you are an elite level player that makes no difference to you. There are things that make more difference that are within the player's control, wireless controller (you can buy a wired one or plug in the charge cable) and going through a router both add around 50ms, a television without gaming mode being on can add up to 150ms. People seem to think that console is a fair competitive gaming utopia where we all pay the same price and all have the same chance, not so, for the most part it is an arms race as to who has the best setup.

And given a lot of people on PC use controllers, I am not sure where having an analogue stick controller has anything to do with it outside of it being wireless which you can fix.

Something else I have seen happen every season, the characters will come out, a few players will try them in arena before going live, as will a few who don't have access to them yet, the players who have them will tear things apart because they know their characters and more importantly their opponents' characters. Then the people screaming op will have access and think it is their turn then because they are the kind who didn't try to figure the characters out before going into pvp they will find they have no idea how to access what they find overpowered about it, within two months most people will be back with their mains. I can see all of the wu lin causing salt, we know at least two of them will force us to play a different way, the nuxia because of the weapon grab can't be just blocked, you have to dodge or parry, the tiandi, you can see from Spliced's video, he can go from kick, which every other character has trained us to dodge, into an undodgeable light, but sooner or later people will figure out how to shut them down and we'll find out where they truly are. In most cases they don't wind up as high in the rankjngs as people assume they will before release.

RexXZ347
07-13-2018, 01:00 PM
Please tell us, what you think 50/50 is so I can show you how wrong you are...

Atleast i can see videos of them unlike you who is a ubisoft fan boy who just talking **** and will always follow everything they said. Stop crying when people say ubisoft needs to do better. You haven't proven anything yet stupid. With the shaman, what about the raven's bile? Isn't that a 50/50 that can be inflicted to any direction.

RexXZ347
07-13-2018, 01:08 PM
So here is the thing, people have looked at these new characters and decided I don't want to use them. Now most that care about the health of the game would leave it at that, the thing is they have their ratings and revenue to think about. People don't get subscriptions and views, and so revenue, just by playing the game, they get a following and they pander to that following, get enough of them saying the same thing about characters that they dislike and they get the people who follow them saying it as well, I've been part of this community since day one, it has happened every season. Streamers by and large (not talking everyone here) do not care about the health of the game nearly as much as they care about views, only now instead of two weeks those so inclined have three months to get the hate ball rolling and a relatively free platform to because the rest of us are under NDA.

As to the console argument, that is an old tired myth. At most the difference in FPS is a 33ms difference, unless you are an elite level player that makes no difference to you. There are things that make more difference that are within the player's control, wireless controller (you can buy a wired one or plug in the charge cable) and going through a router both add around 50ms, a television without gaming mode being on can add up to 150ms. People seem to think that console is a fair competitive gaming utopia where we all pay the same price and all have the same chance, not so, for the most part it is an arms race as to who has the best setup.

And given a lot of people on PC use controllers, I am not sure where having an analogue stick controller has anything to do with it outside of it being wireless which you can fix.

Yes i agree. But on console the movement of analog stick is already 80ms. From left to right. The 30fps got alot of difference because damage and gb indicator shows immediately unlike on 60fps that shows very smooth. There is a thread here that shows the difference of 60fps and 30fps. It's like 60fps is watching an animated cartoon while 30 fps is watching a cartoon made from papers being slided. There are alot of players too who switched from pc to console and vice versa and they said they got better on pc or got worse on console. If alot of console players are having a hard time playing and complaining then there really is a problem.

Alustar.exe
07-13-2018, 01:19 PM
Atleast i can see videos of them unlike you who is a ubisoft fan boy who just talking **** and will always follow everything they said. Stop crying when people say ubisoft needs to do better. You haven't proven anything yet stupid. With the shaman, what about the raven's bile? Isn't that a 50/50 that can be inflicted to any direction.

3 directions isn't 50/50 nub. And unlike you, I was in the tech test so I got to see these heroes in action, trust me. Not OP. I also love how anyone who didn't agree with you is a fanboy, you say that like it's supposed to make me feel bad? Lulz@nubs!
Also, having moved from console to PC, I can also say your argument about FPS is also incorrect. I barely notice a difference in the reaction times. Animations look smoother and the game is more vibrant, but it is no more responsive than on console.

RexXZ347
07-13-2018, 01:36 PM
3 directions isn't 50/50 nub. And unlike you, I was in the tech test so I got to see these heroes in action, trust me. Not OP. I also love how anyone who didn't agree with you is a fanboy, you say that like it's supposed to make me feel bad? Lulz@nubs!
Also, having moved from console to PC, I can also say your argument about FPS is also incorrect. I barely notice a difference in the reaction times. Animations look smoother and the game is more vibrant, but it is no more responsive than on console.

loool. You really just got born yesterday nuub. I have never said that tiandi IS OP. And yet you claim i said that. I said they are S tier. S tier and OP are 2 different levels nuub. Even if direction isn't a 50/50 the time of the attack IS a 50/50. The time that the non feint attack and the time of the soft feinted attack is the same so that makes a 50/50. I wonder why ubisoft let you play the test, maybe because they know you will fight for them no matter what the problem is. Fps got alot to do with reaction. Imagine that frame rates are "+". So 60 fps in 12 microsecs is like this ++++++++++++. But 30fps in 12 microsecs is like this ---+++---+++. So you will see better and react better with smooth graphics than non smooth graphics. Plus input delay, tv delays, analog movement delay. Please, with your tunnel minded self biased brain your arguement have no meaning on me. Unlike Vakris_One here who got some points that i can agree on. Yours don't have even just a bit so i will stop replying to your post.

Alustar.exe
07-13-2018, 01:44 PM
An attack that comes at 500MS will come at 500MS regardless of FRAME PER SECOND. Frames per second refers to the compression rate of animations. 60fps is not slower than 30fps. But you wouldn't know that, because you have no experience with animation software.

Shaman had no 50/50. Her mix ups are all 33/33/33 at least. But again, you wouldn't know that, because to you she's just OP garbage.

Your analysis of Tiandi and where she stands in the ranking is null and void seeing as how she isn't even in live play. The only frame of reference you have is a couple bias reviews from popular YouTubers who are to increase ratings by means of click bait.

HazelrahFirefly
07-13-2018, 01:52 PM
The Shaman's moves aren't even 33/33/33. Rex is clearly just someone who dislikes Shaman.

Vakris_One
07-13-2018, 02:11 PM
Wait wait wait, did you just said shaman has no 50/50? Do you know he got alot of 50/50?
I don't know how it is on console but on PC the closest thing she has to a potential 50/50 is her side left unblockable feint into GB but it's not a true 50/50. You can react to her GB and you can parry her unblockable if she lets it fly. You can also smack her out of her mind game with a fast light. You can block on reaction to anything she throws including her soft cancel bleeds.

But don't just take my word for it. Go talk to the competitive community and take a look at the official Season 5 win charts. If she was full of 50/50s as you claim then she wouldn't be 5th in Duel and 6th in Dominion based on the win charts from the game's top 2.5% of players.



With that being said it's more hard to believe you right now.
Because I happen to play on a higher level than you? Interesting logic. By the same logic I guess I should start completely ignoring you because you keep incorrectly branding everything as "50/50".



Plus, i have played for honor since it's release and from experiences from playing against heroes with cancerous moves. Tiandi have better of those moves. Like for example is the heavy to 400ms light. Even if you blocked the heavy the light is a sure hit (block animation/reflex guard).
You haven't played Tiandi so you have no real clue as to what he can do. You've seen a bunch of Youtubers give their early impressons based on less than 20 hours of play time. What you just said about a 400ms attack being guarranteed after a block is mind blowing in its lack of truth. Orochi has lights at 400ms and yet he can't freeze up my guard with a heavy > light combo. An assassin can be stun locked with consecutive hits but not if he blocks one of them.



What about the palm strike and kick? They are a sure edge killer or when a centurion is beside the tiandi. It is a good gank strategy.
Oh no! Quick, let's delete all characters that can ledge and have good synergy in a gank!!! Sorry to make fun but your lack of logic here was just too much.



Shaolin and Tiandi have alot of unblockable and unreactable moves (again, console) that old character have to do double effort just to kill these characters. I agree that skills do a big part in this game. But what weapon (character) you use also do a big part in this game.
Again, you have not played these characters. You've watched some videos, all from PC players, and somehow you are 100% sure that they have unreactable moves. This does not compute. All of the Shaolin's unblockables can only be accessed from his Qi stance, not from neutral unless you use his teleport kick feat. He has 3 unblockables:

1) Top heavy from Qi stance - can be parried and dodged
2) Kick from Qi stance - can be dodged
3) Heavy after teleport kick (feat) - can be parried

He gets counter crush on his first light from Qi stance, which can be baited out with a feint.

Tiandi has a grand total of 2 unblockables:
1) Palm strike - can be dodged
2) Kick - only gets it after a heavy. Slow move and incredibly slow recovery, can be dodged. Only useful in a gank.

Real OP stuff there. Certainly puts the pre-nerf Centurion to shame... (sarcasm).

Alustar.exe
07-13-2018, 02:37 PM
I don't know how it is on console but on PC the closest thing she has to a potential 50/50 is her side left unblockable feint into GB but it's not a true 50/50. You can react to her GB and you can parry her unblockable if she lets it fly. You can also smack her out of her mind game with a fast light. You can block on reaction to anything she throws including her soft cancel bleeds.

But don't just take my word for it. Go talk to the competitive community and take a look at the official Season 5 win charts. If she was full of 50/50s as you claim then she wouldn't be 5th in Duel and 6th in Dominion based on the win charts from the game's top 2.5% of players.


Because I happen to play on a higher level than you? Interesting logic. By the same logic I guess I should start completely ignoring you because you keep incorrectly branding everything as "50/50".


You haven't played Tiandi so you have no real clue as to what he can do. You've seen a bunch of Youtubers give their early impressons based on less than 20 hours of play time. What you just said about a 400ms attack being guarranteed after a block is mind blowing in its lack of truth. Orochi has lights at 400ms and yet he can't freeze up my guard with a heavy > light combo. An assassin can be stun locked with consecutive hits but not if he blocks one of them.


Oh no! Quick, let's delete all characters that can ledge and have good synergy in a gank!!! Sorry to make fun but your lack of logic here was just too much.


Again, you have not played these characters. You've watched some videos, all from PC players, and somehow you are 100% sure that they have unreactable moves. This does not compute. All of the Shaolin's unblockables can only be accessed from his Qi stance, not from neutral unless you use his teleport kick feat. He has 3 unblockables:

1) Top heavy from Qi stance - can be parried and dodged
2) Kick from Qi stance - can be dodged
3) Heavy after teleport kick (feat) - can be parried

He gets counter crush on his first light from Qi stance, which can be baited out with a feint.

Tiandi has a grand total of 2 unblockables:
1) Palm strike - can be dodged
2) Kick - only gets it after a heavy. Slow move and incredibly slow recovery, can be dodged. Only useful in a gank.

Real OP stuff there. Certainly puts the pre-nerf Centurion to shame... (sarcasm).

Just a small correction on shaman left unlockable, she can let out fly, or she can soft feint to GB, or she can soft feint to dodge strike from two different directions, OR she can hard feint to light-light-heavy, again from two different directions. Very far from 50/50

Vakris_One
07-13-2018, 02:44 PM
https://youtu.be/-FYM0N9dMAg

So shmolty also said tiandi is broken.
So what you're saying is... Shmolty has an opinion. His opinion is that Tiandi's dodge feint game is too strong in a gank. He expressly states that it's not a problem in 1v1s because you can just wait to see what the Tiandi does - a statement you ignored because "Tiandi is broken" sounds more catchy and suits you more.

Shmolty's opinion is one man's feedback and that's fine. You're essentially seeing a very, very tiny snippet of the feedback and discussions that have been going on in the tech test forum. Except that you're only seeing 2-3 people's opinions and focusing on Youtuber's opinions that fit your closed off viewpoint. Even when the very same Youtuber voices an opposing opinion to yours in the very same video, you ignore it.

Shmolty also said Shaolin is perfectly balanced for example. Yet you think Shaolin is unreactable and also OP. Is Shmolty right, or are you?

SpaceJim12
07-13-2018, 02:45 PM
What about the palm strike and kick? They are a sure edge killer or when a centurion is beside the tiandi. It is a good gank strategy.

Same as HL kick, LB shove, Cent kick, Warden SB, Conq...should I go on?
Well, it was a good move to remove almost all ledges from duels. But in Dominion 4v4 is a huge part of fun, come on. This kick of Tiandi will be so cool in fights. And btw, did you see how slow it was? It's clearly on the video. I mostly afraid, that can't kick someone in 80% of cases (90% with my luck).
Again, about gunk strategy. Should raider be removed from the game, than? I mean, two raiders in the zone with ledges just never will fight you fair. On of them will running around for chance to blow you away to the near by pit.

Vakris_One
07-13-2018, 02:52 PM
Just a small correction on shaman left unlockable, she can let out fly, or she can soft feint to GB, or she can soft feint to dodge strike from two different directions, OR she can hard feint to light-light-heavy, again from two different directions. Very far from 50/50
All Shamans ever seem to do to me is try the unblockable > GB mind game but in fairness all her other options are too easy to shut down. Cancel to dodge strike or double light can be blocked on reaction, punished with a dodge strike of my own or parried. I regularly play Kensei who can punish those things easily thereby forcing her to stick to the GB mind game.

Alustar.exe
07-13-2018, 06:50 PM
All Shamans ever seem to do to me is try the unblockable > GB mind game but in fairness all her other options are too easy to shut down. Cancel to dodge strike or double light can be blocked on reaction, punished with a dodge strike of my own or parried. I regularly play Kensei who can punish those things easily thereby forcing her to stick to the GB mind game.

That's really the reason that most shaman go for the GB option. It's by far the safest need to make, because usually worst case scenario is the encounter will be reset to neutral on a CGB. Though any character with a dodge strike or fast lights can get out of that too. When I fight heroes like Centurion, gladiator, orochi or Nobushi I typically don't bother with a feint to GB. I hard feint to light to prevent getting hit out of mix ups. Kensei is still awkward, as I have to train myself to hard feint and wait for a block or parry.

Knight_Raime
07-13-2018, 07:26 PM
Atleast i can see videos of them unlike you who is a ubisoft fan boy who just talking **** and will always follow everything they said. Stop crying when people say ubisoft needs to do better. You haven't proven anything yet stupid. With the shaman, what about the raven's bile? Isn't that a 50/50 that can be inflicted to any direction.

50/50 is an action performed by an opponent that forces 1 or 2 outcomes and the opponent is forced to guess which one to try and counter. If they guess wrong they're punished.
For honor doesn't have any true 50/50's because rolling trumps the need to guess on anything. If you don't have to guess because you have an option that gets you out of it then it's not a 50/50.
The only time anything in this game is close to a 50/50 is when you're out of stamina. But 90% of what for honor has is reactable. Some things obviously have a tighter timing than others. But still reactable.

You seem to be under the impression that just because someone can go into two seperate things that that alone makes something a 50/50. That's just a mix up.

RexXZ347
07-14-2018, 04:02 AM
1)I don't know how it is on console but on PC the closest thing she has to a potential 50/50 is her side left unblockable feint into GB but it's not a true 50/50.


2) Because I happen to play on a higher level than you? Interesting logic. By the same logic I guess I should start completely ignoring you because you keep incorrectly branding everything as "50/50".


3) You haven't played Tiandi so you have no real clue as to what he can do. You've seen a bunch of Youtubers give their early impressons based on less than 20 hours of play time. What you just said about a 400ms attack being guarranteed after a block is mind blowing in its lack of truth. Orochi has lights at 400ms and yet he can't freeze up my guard with a heavy > light combo. An assassin can be stun locked with consecutive hits but not if he blocks one of them.


4) Oh no! Quick, let's delete all characters that can ledge and have good synergy in a gank!!! Sorry to make fun but your lack of logic here was just too much.


5) Again, you have not played these characters. You've watched some videos, all from PC players, and somehow you are 100% sure that they have unreactable moves. This does not compute. All of the Shaolin's unblockables can only be accessed from his Qi stance, not from neutral unless you use his teleport kick feat. He has 3 unblockables:

1) Top heavy from Qi stance - can be parried and dodged
2) Kick from Qi stance - can be dodged
3) Heavy after teleport kick (feat) - can be parried

He gets counter crush on his first light from Qi stance, which can be baited out with a feint.

Tiandi has a grand total of 2 unblockables:
1) Palm strike - can be dodged
2) Kick - only gets it after a heavy. Slow move and incredibly slow recovery, can be dodged. Only useful in a gank.

Real OP stuff there. Certainly puts the pre-nerf Centurion to shame... (sarcasm).

1) that's already the point but then you talk sarcasm like you know everything. "You don't know in console" in that point your claim is already of no grounds for console players.

2) 2nd claim that got no grounds again. I never said everything isa 50/50. I am just saying they got alot of 50/50 but not everything. In this game. 3 50/50 is already alot.

3) again, in console 400ms lights are very hard to react. In ps4, to block those orochi lights we have to predict because of delays.

4) have you played 4v4 where you are playing 2v1? No? Please, your sarcasm isn't even funny. Because of reflex guard or stun block even a slow kick cannot be dodged.

5) i agree that they are dodgeable. There is no arguement in that. But are they reactable? Please. Your arguement is of no meaning too because you haven't proven anything. No video too. I don't need to listen to you now. Plus as you can say they are PC players with 60fps frame rate and very little to no input delays. Very fast input reaction on keyboard. But here for mege fighting against UbiHiroshi (a for honor dev) they are playing on console as you can clearly see. And UbiHiroshi isn't a bad player. But still UbiHiroshi manages to win just once using an S tier berserker. https://youtu.be/QYGfCqEv0bM

RexXZ347
07-14-2018, 04:13 AM
1)An attack that comes at 500MS will come at 500MS regardless of FRAME PER SECOND. Frames per second refers to the compression rate of animations. 60fps is not slower than 30fps. But you wouldn't know that, because you have no experience with animation software.

2) Shaman had no 50/50. Her mix ups are all 33/33/33 at least. But again, you wouldn't know that, because to you she's just OP garbage.

3) Your analysis of Tiandi and where she stands in the ranking is null and void seeing as how she isn't even in live play. The only frame of reference you have is a couple bias reviews from popular YouTubers who are to increase ratings by means of click bait.

1) you're the one who doesn't know animation. I have been in a team with animations on PC and they explained to me very well the difference of 60fps and 30fps. Because they're also players.

2) oh... Sorry. I am mistaken there. Yeah, she got no 50/50. Only 33/33/33 which is far more worst.

3) then explain to me this. Mege fighting Ubihiroshi. A UBISOFT DEVELOPER. Who won just once even if using a berserker. I know skills is a big part but ubihiroshi who is one of the devs who created tiandi (as you can listen in that video) also said tiandi is "very good". https://youtu.be/QYGfCqEv0bM

RexXZ347
07-14-2018, 04:18 AM
The Shaman's moves aren't even 33/33/33. Rex is clearly just someone who dislikes Shaman.

Sorry dude but i never said anything that shaman has 33/33/33. What i'm claiming is shaman got 50/50 moves. And i don't hate shaman now, i hate her pre-nerf.

RexXZ347
07-14-2018, 04:34 AM
50/50 is an action performed by an opponent that forces 1 or 2 outcomes and the opponent is forced to guess which one to try and counter. If they guess wrong they're punished.
For honor doesn't have any true 50/50's because rolling trumps the need to guess on anything. If you don't have to guess because you have an option that gets you out of it then it's not a 50/50.
The only time anything in this game is close to a 50/50 is when you're out of stamina. But 90% of what for honor has is reactable. Some things obviously have a tighter timing than others. But still reactable.

You seem to be under the impression that just because someone can go into two seperate things that that alone makes something a 50/50. That's just a mix up.

I agree, that is what 50/50 is for me. For instance a character does 2 heavies and a light to left, that chain ends up at 2.5 secs. And then the light can e put in any direction. He does a 2 heavies and a light to right which also ends up in 2.5 secs. For me that is a 50/50. As i can agree with you if you guess it right then you reap the reward. If not you can be punished. I believe 50/50 is based on guessing and fighting on reaction isn't a 50/50. Another 50/50 that are very rewarding is the warden shoulder bash and HL kick to camber toss. When you see the warden glow you have to guess if he's gonna continue it or feint it to gb because when the warden glows you should be already on the animation of moving because if you don't you will be hit by the ShB. And when the warden feint it to a gb you can't do anything because you character is already in the animation of dodging and onced gb when dodging. It's 100%. I know you can dodge backwards but that itself isn't a good move so as it will only reset the game and you losing almost half your stamina. So i believe 50/50 is in for honors game mechanics.

RexXZ347
07-14-2018, 04:46 AM
Same as HL kick, LB shove, Cent kick, Warden SB, Conq...should I go on?
Well, it was a good move to remove almost all ledges from duels. But in Dominion 4v4 is a huge part of fun, come on. This kick of Tiandi will be so cool in fights. And btw, did you see how slow it was? It's clearly on the video. I mostly afraid, that can't kick someone in 80% of cases (90% with my luck).
Again, about gunk strategy. Should raider be removed from the game, than? I mean, two raiders in the zone with ledges just never will fight you fair. On of them will running around for chance to blow you away to the near by pit.

I never said of removing. Plus the raider needs to run first before doing that. But when he hits an ally the stampede charge is stopped. But then, raider is not that very good in 4v4.

SpaceJim12
07-14-2018, 08:25 AM
I never said of removing. Plus the raider needs to run first before doing that. But when he hits an ally the stampede charge is stopped. But then, raider is not that very good in 4v4.

Well, all that Raiders in Dominion could not agreed with you.=)

Vakris_One
07-14-2018, 02:43 PM
1) that's already the point but then you talk sarcasm like you know everything. "You don't know in console" in that point your claim is already of no grounds for console players.
That's a pretty weak retreat. I guess by that logic I should just turn my nose up at you for being on console and just say "Your opinion is invalid because PC is where the real For Honor is played and is specifically balanced for."



2) 2nd claim that got no grounds again. I never said everything isa 50/50. I am just saying they got alot of 50/50 but not everything. In this game. 3 50/50 is already alot.
You don't know what a 50/50 is and you've proven that by repeatedly branding mixups as 50/50s. You are the one whose claims have no grounds to stand on. Just look at how many people in this thread have already told you you're completely wrong on your claims of 50/50s.



3) again, in console 400ms lights are very hard to react. In ps4, to block those orochi lights we have to predict because of delays.
You keep using the console excuse. If a 400ms light after a blocked heavy was guarranteed on console wouldn't the competitive console community confirm this as being a thing? They don't.



4) have you played 4v4 where you are playing 2v1? No? Please, your sarcasm isn't even funny. Because of reflex guard or stun block even a slow kick cannot be dodged.
Please. Judging purely by your posts I can guarrantee I play at a higher level than you so for your own sake let's not go down that route. Tiandi's kick is a ganking tool; shock, horror! It's slightly slower even than Centurion's kick so let's not panic just yet. Pretty sure everybody that is above average in Dominion will learn to anticipate it without great difficulty.



5) i agree that they are dodgeable. There is no arguement in that. But are they reactable?
Yes they are reactable. That is generally what people mean when they say that something is dodgeable.



Please. Your arguement is of no meaning too because you haven't proven anything. No video too. I don't need to listen to you now.
What a weak argument. I'm under NDA Einstein. I'm sorry that I can't make a bite sized video for you that tells you what to think so you don't have to engage your independant thought processes.

I would draw you a picture in crayons out of pity but I don't feel like getting sued by Ubisoft because I'm not one of their favourite Youtubers in this underhanded two tier NDA system they made, lol.



Plus as you can say they are PC players with 60fps frame rate and very little to no input delays. Very fast input reaction on keyboard. But here for mege fighting against UbiHiroshi (a for honor dev) they are playing on console as you can clearly see. And UbiHiroshi isn't a bad player. But still UbiHiroshi manages to win just once using an S tier berserker. https://youtu.be/QYGfCqEv0bM
Yep. An average Ubi dev picks a strong character and loses to a pro player who happens to have learned how to play Tiandi - who isn't a complex hero to learn by the way. If anything that vid is a good example of how skills and experience matter more than hero choice. With all due respect to Hiroshi but Mege could beat him with any hero in the roster. That's not to say Hiroshi is bad, that's just saying Mege is a very good player who regularly fights against competitive players.