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View Full Version : For Honor's Major Problems And Solutions To Fix Them (Suggestions / Opinions)



DFQN1
07-10-2018, 06:11 AM
What I picked up in the forums of For Honor and also from in-game experiences, the major problems in For Honor are:

1. The turtle meta, which is still a thing (and did not suddenly disappear after the parry changes)
2. Free damage (espacially from parries)
3. (Unnecessary) fast attacks

Turtle Meta

The turtle meta is still there and a huge problem for For Honor's fighting system. But instead of actually nerfing the defense, they buffed the offense. So that is basically the reason why we have so much unblockables and bashes. Simply to negate defensive gameplay completely. But how can we fix it? Simple. Remove free damage from parries! (I will get to bashes and the speed of attacks later)

When the free damage from parries gets removed, turtles will not have a reason to turtle anymore because they actually need to attack to get some damage in. So what would happen after a parry? The only thing you would get is the privilege to attack first. Nothing more, nothing less. Maybe speed up post parry heavies (I read it somewhere in the forums and thought it is a good idea). And at this point we nerfed defensive gameplay completely. So what about offensive gameplay? (First: The bashes)

With bashes I mean the overall attacks which can not be blocked or parried (there's some kind of subcategory: Grabs, to which I'll come later). Warden's Shoulder Bash, Conqueror's Shield Bash, etc.. And again, remove free damage COMPLETELY. I know what you are thinking: Why doing bashes if I can not get anything from it? I've got a solution for that. But more to that later, no worries.

Now the grabs (Demon's Embrace, Caber Toss, etc.). Those attacks should keep their free damage privilege but only if:
-wallsplatted
-not feintable at all
-on miss you will be vulnerable to gbs (so "high risk" for pulling it off from neutral)

Now back to the bashes. As I mentioned before, bashes shouldn't give the opportunity for free damage. So what would I change? Post bash attacks are blockable but unparriable. They also should have superior properties (like Shugoki's lights) and therefore function as a chain starter (more to that later :D). In addition to that a bash on miss lets you stumble which will cost more stamina (yes, characters with swift strikes still get free damage if they dodge a bash or grab).

Let's talk about the parry punishes which are clearly designed to do free damage from a parry. How can we adjust them? Simple. We take the Centurion as an example. First of all: I second the idea of still getting free damage from following situations:
-a grab
-a wallsplat
-an unbalanced opponent
That being said, Centurion's parry punish should still guarentee his full damage combo IF a wall is nearby and a wallsplat is guarenteed. Without a wallsplat the Cent will not get a free heavy after his parry punish (that little knee attack to the opponent's face). Should be blockable but not parriable. Same goes for the Lawbringer. His light riposte should be blockable even if it doesn't look like it. But since it strikes to the opponent's head, one should be able to block it when they put up their guard. Same goes for all parry punishes. Post attacks are blockable but unparriable (to function as a chain starter).

And of course, same thing for deflects with a little exception. If an opponent continues their chain, they will get hit by the deflect attack. They will not if they stop their chain at that moment.

Free Damage

Yes, a little section for free damage. Not to negate it, but for situations that allow free damage.
I mentioned it before. Free damage only if:
-wallsplatted
-successfully grabbed
-the opponent gets unbalanced

That means no free damage from a gb. You only get the privilege to throw the opponent for stamina drain or to wallsplat them (and of course unbalance them if they are Oos).

Attacks And Their Properties

First of all. Decrease the attack speed to a maximum of 500ms for light attacks and a minimum of 600ms. Furthermore the overall chip damage should be increased to 25-30% with lethal properties. For ALL attacks (more to that later).

All unblockables can not be hard or soft feinted into gb but they can be soft feinted into a light attack which always functions as a chain starter.

Now back to the overall attacks. I mentioned chip damage for all attacks. That means all attacks do chip damage which also means that light attacks will have superior properties. Since we nerfed parries to Norway and back there would not be a risk for throwing light attacks at will, you thought :). We still have the parry mechanic which will drain your stamina if you are not careful and out of stamina 50/50s will still be a thing. "But why should I parry an attack if I will not get anything from it?" You will. A chance of getting the opponent oos and to negate chip damage. Plus to negate a new system I thought of (for the parries, to still be viable).

And here we come to the "Chain Finisher Follow-ups". These, let's call them, CFFs only trigger if you finish your combo (the last hit must connect) without getting parried and without the enemy dodging your attack (yes, a simple block still counts as "connected"). A little character specific attack which drains your stamina completely, does a little extra damage, unbalances you, etc., etc.. Whatever. But something impactful so that you want to parry the last attack of a chain eventually. Which gives opportunities for light-heavy mix-ups for the attacker.
To get what I'm thinking of, look at this video. This is the game Kingdom Come Deliverance. The CFF (what I call it) is called "duplieren" in this case. It's the little strike to the head at the end of the combo (which is shown in the beginning of the video).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_FMUaRmApI&ab_channel=Jappen

And here we go. My suggestions and opinions on some problems in For Honor. Thanks for your time.
I look forward to opinions on that and also to more suggestions to these and other problems.

Armosias
07-10-2018, 10:39 AM
I think this will only switch the turtle meta to feint GB meta, because as long as something allows safe moves it'll be abused by players

SpaceJim12
07-10-2018, 11:41 AM
You can't fix turtle meta, I think.
It is a core mechanics problem. In real life any block blade by blade called parry. There are two major reasons why people will always use turtle in For Honor.
1. It's is very safe. All you need to do is understand that every heavy could be feinted. This is the only danger in turtle. Block, dodge, parry. Wait chanse for free GB or guaranteed hit. Most of the time, players become turtles cause they can't stand against someone. When some easy moves won't work, player become turtle and wait your actions. In For Honor react to someone actions are way easier and safer, than do some by yourself. This is the main problem. And devs still don't know what to do with this.
2. Second, is how easy it to parry opponent. And how rewarded it could be. Sure, it's not free GB after parry now, but still you have a lot to do. So why to attack and have a chance to be parried, if you can wait and parry yourself. Easy choice.

In my opinion, devs should remove parry at all. Block is enough. Add counter-attack to every char, but make window of it same as HL window for CC. No parry and problem could be solved for 50%.

Arekonator
07-10-2018, 11:50 AM
Without new complete rework of the cast (and we are not even finished with the first one mind you) that would leave us with about 5 usable characters. No, thanks.

Darkmight_cz
07-10-2018, 12:07 PM
2. Second, is how easy it to parry opponent. And how rewarded it could be. Sure, it's not free GB after parry now, but still you have a lot to do. So why to attack and have a chance to be parried, if you can wait and parry yourself. Easy choice.

In my opinion, devs should remove parry at all. Block is enough. Add counter-attack to every char, but make window of it same as HL window for CC. No parry and problem could be solved for 50%.

Lot to do? Heavy parry - light att, light parry ( not easy at all) - heavy att that's all + if you see that opponent likes to parry well mate feint and then you can parry him or GB him that's all. Remove one of the core mechanics from the game is just stupid idea sorry 😉

SpaceJim12
07-10-2018, 12:49 PM
Lot to do? Heavy parry - light att, light parry ( not easy at all) - heavy att that's all + if you see that opponent likes to parry well mate feint and then you can parry him or GB him that's all. Remove one of the core mechanics from the game is just stupid idea sorry

Well, after parry you could do light (which guaranteed) than do heavy and feint it to GB/light/chance to parry. The mix up variations after good parry is a huge. If you parry someone, who have revenge it will give you opportunity to tone down opponent pressure. And instead of it, 10-15% chance to parry accidentally, while try to do heavy from same side, as your opponnent do light is stupid. So, if not remove, at least make unique button to parry, not same as heavy.
Idea to add this mechanic to the game was stupid, sorry.

P.S. Prove of my last words is current and past turtle problems that will be here until mechanic will not change.
And on PC it's a good chance for cheaters to abuse this mechanic and compleatly ignore feints.

Darkmight_cz
07-10-2018, 01:25 PM
Well, after parry you could do light (which guaranteed) than do heavy and feint it to GB/light/chance to parry. The mix up variations after good parry is a huge. If you parry someone, who have revenge it will give you opportunity to tone down opponent pressure. And instead of it, 10-15% chance to parry accidentally, while try to do heavy from same side, as your opponnent do light is stupid. So, if not remove, at least make unique button to parry, not same as heavy.
Idea to add this mechanic to the game was stupid, sorry.

P.S. Prove of my last words is current and past turtle problems that will be here until mechanic will not change.
And on PC it's a good chance for cheaters to abuse this mechanic and compleatly ignore feints.

First off you have guaranteed only light or heavy after successful parry that's all I don't know why you talking about mix ups which are not guaranteed at all. Second - man if you want special button for parry well this will make feinting useless. 😉

DFQN1
07-10-2018, 01:57 PM
I think this will only switch the turtle meta to feint GB meta, because as long as something allows safe moves it'll be abused by players

You are not allowed to gb someone out of a heavy start-up anymore. That is how we could fix that. Then there wouldn't be a safe move since there's basiccally no free damage in this game anymore.

SpaceJim12
07-10-2018, 02:31 PM
First off you have guaranteed only light or heavy after successful parry that's all I don't know why you talking about mix ups which are not guaranteed at all. Second - man if you want special button for parry well this will make feinting useless.

Well, since feint itself become very popular and any new char have a ton of softfeints CAUSE of parry mechanics, it could be ok if it will go away to oblivion. But, again, I suggest to remove parry at all.


You are not allowed to gb someone out of a heavy start-up anymore. That is how we could fix that. Then there wouldn't be a safe move since there's basiccally no free damage in this game anymore.

Well, and game will become to most boring thing ever.=) Everyone will parry, block, CGB, no matter what. In the end remove guaranteed GB in middle of dodge and we will be ok.
Heavy already are something, that you can't land 90% of times. Everyone parry everything on average level of play. If you not feint, you will probably will be parried. What the point?

Fairemont
07-10-2018, 03:08 PM
Removing Turtle meta will give rise to spam attack meta.

Sounds like even more excitement.

DFQN1
07-11-2018, 03:00 PM
Well, since feint itself become very popular and any new char have a ton of softfeints CAUSE of parry mechanics, it could be ok if it will go away to oblivion. But, again, I suggest to remove parry at all.



Well, and game will become to most boring thing ever.=) Everyone will parry, block, CGB, no matter what. In the end remove guaranteed GB in middle of dodge and we will be ok.
Heavy already are something, that you can't land 90% of times. Everyone parry everything on average level of play. If you not feint, you will probably will be parried. What the point?

Because standing in front of your opponent and waiting for a parry is more exciting or what? :D
Yes, there are a lot of fast attacks and bashes in this game but the total amount of starring contests is rediculously boring. I do not want to be a part of a starring contest. I want to hear weapons clash, different combos and the opponent actually doing something.

SpaceJim12
07-11-2018, 04:21 PM
Because standing in front of your opponent and waiting for a parry is more exciting or what?
Yes, there are a lot of fast attacks and bashes in this game but the total amount of starring contests is rediculously boring. I do not want to be a part of a starring contest. I want to hear weapons clash, different combos and the opponent actually doing something.

I mean if no safe move will be in For Honor, on current level of plays in the game there will be no chance to hurt your opponent.
For example:
I throw a heavy, opponent parry, throw his attack and I parry (if heavy) block (if light). After my parry I could...do what? UB will be parried, same with heavy. Light will be blocked. So what the point in such game?
Let's look at another picture. I throw heavy, feint it, parry opponent. What is next? No profit from it at all.

As I said above, devs can't stop turtle meta without changing core mechanics. Remove parry, give every character reflex guard and maybe that we will se difference.

We.the.North
07-11-2018, 04:47 PM
I've been hoping for a permanent "realistic" mode since almost the beginning of For Honor because I've seen a lot of players use an auto-block & auto-counter GB pixel bot program. I have 50 rep of Shinobi, mostly in Dominion, and by now there are names of player I KNOW will be able to counter my ranged stuff even if I come at them from behind with the stealth feat and perform my ranged action from outside their screen frame. It's humanly impossible to react to that, but they can somehow, with a 100% success rate. The reason those pixel bot programs are so good isn't just because of the defense and easy revenge gains, it's because as OP said : Free Damage. On PC, it's hard to evaluate exactly the risk / reward of parrying, because some players don't even input their parrying, thus skewing the DATA in favor of parrying.

First, I don't think removing the free damage from a parry is a good idea. You have to give your player something for outplaying their opponent and I dont think stamina drain is enough and giving "attack initiative" is too little of a reward. I'm very happy with the current system of light parry > heavy attack punish ; heavy parry > light attack punish. But I do believe we need to make parrying a little harder, while always keeping in mind those pixel bot cheaters. Again, I propose a permanent realistic "no attack indicator" mode, just like the hardest difficulty in the PvE campaign. Simple change, no more cheaters.

Second, there is another problem that turtles are abusing : Guardbreak is 100% safe vs reaction. I just made another post about this, I believe countering a guardbreak should allow the opponent to get a free light attack. I'm 100% aware this will strengthen the "turtle meta", but I think watching the hero series where 2 opponent would stare at each other and only throw guardbreak left and right was also very boring. No attack in the game should be 100% safe.

DFQN1
07-11-2018, 06:27 PM
I mean if no safe move will be in For Honor, on current level of plays in the game there will be no chance to hurt your opponent.
For example:
I throw a heavy, opponent parry, throw his attack and I parry (if heavy) block (if light). After my parry I could...do what? UB will be parried, same with heavy. Light will be blocked. So what the point in such game?
Let's look at another picture. I throw heavy, feint it, parry opponent. What is next? No profit from it at all.

As I said above, devs can't stop turtle meta without changing core mechanics. Remove parry, give every character reflex guard and maybe that we will se difference.

The main damage you do comes from chip damage (which I have increased in my suggestions to 25-30% with lethal properties) and from heavy-light mix-ups. I do not understand the argument of this game being boring if you would actually throw out attacks.

Darkmight_cz
07-11-2018, 06:35 PM
Again, I propose a permanent realistic "no attack indicator" mode, just like the hardest difficulty in the PvE campaign. Simple change, no more cheaters.


That will only encourage community to play easy cheesy light spaming characters. That's all.

We.the.North
07-11-2018, 08:35 PM
That will only encourage community to play easy cheesy light spaming characters. That's all.

Just look at your opponent, you dont need indicator to see where an attack is coming from. And if this still proves to be an issue, Ubisoft can also slow down all attacks by 100 ms.

It's the only real solution to pixel bot cheaters.

SpaceJim12
07-12-2018, 10:06 AM
The main damage you do comes from chip damage (which I have increased in my suggestions to 25-30% with lethal properties) and from heavy-light mix-ups. I do not understand the argument of this game being boring if you would actually throw out attacks.

Chip damage will make it a toxic for non light spammer chars.=) I believe you just can't imagine current examples of what could happend. Let's say Orochi will attack you with lights, all you can do (if your lights not faster) is block and wait. Than, let's say, you will be lucky enough to parry on of his lights, but he will block/parry your following attack and keep on light spam. And you will die in couple seconds. Gear stats for dmg on block, and you are the king.
And even non light spammer char. Give me your "fixes" and will kill everyone on LB just use his insane top light. Sure, if I will do it again and again, someone could parry it...buuut, why should I care, there is no free dmg after parry anymore, I just block or parry myself, do one side feint and keep on top light.
Your fix just will break the game, sorry. And of course it will be boring. Why should you care about mixups, if you don't worry about parry?

DFQN1
07-13-2018, 02:33 PM
A light does usually 15 dmg which would be 4.5 dmg with 30% chip damage. This is literally noting. But if you do not want to get hit by this massive amount of damage then you can parry or dodge the attack. All in all this is exactly what I want to achieve with this changes. If you stand in front of your opponent and block everything they do it would be pointless to attack in the first place. So react if you want to negate damage.
We can change something a bit for your concerns. How about the attack after a parry is unparriable? That would make parrying more viable and you will get your chip damage with the standard privilege to attack first.