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Sad.Boi_Hours
07-10-2018, 05:28 AM
Is all the hate in the For Honor community that's directed at Shaman really warranted? I've just completed the story mode and I'm about 30 or more hours into the multiplayer and I plan to stay for a pretty long time. Game's super fun! I've also found myself attracted to the character that seems to be getting a **** ton of hate since her release which would obviously be Shaman. I see people calling her OP n then there are others saying the exact opposite and how people need to just adapt to her new fighting style. I've learned all of her ins and outs as a character and I love her theme, she's incredibly fun to play. I've gotten my first rep with her, and all over Youtube there's so much anger and hate. But whenever I play against a Shaman, I don't see a problem. After playing her for just enough to get Rep 1, I already know all of her tricks and what to expect. It's not like she's hard to fight so I don't understand why people are complaining about her. In the past, I've complained about Orochi and his 400ms lights, and I used to think he's OP. But of course, he definitely has his weaknesses like a lack of offense. And I'm more than happy to now go in and do my best to understand how he works and just how to break through Orochi's insane defensive capabilities. And please, I would appreciate to keep all the hate for me being a Shaman main out. It may even change, but for now she's the most enjoyable character to me and I'd like to keep other people's opinions of that out. Just an explanation as to why people just have so much hatred for the character.

Mia.Nora
07-10-2018, 05:40 AM
OP is a vague word, but what we can agree on is that in comparison to other heroes her kit is way more diverse and without any major drawbacks as a cost of that diversity (heck she can actually do most stuff better than the rest). FH is not a balanced game, and anyone claims so is delusional (which I doubt that there is anyone). Moreover some characters are more annoying to vs than others regardless of how strong they are. Seeing someone using cheesier characters will always lead to prejudice and nothing can be done about that until ubi manages to balance the game, which is very unlikely.

Real question is why does it bother you that the character is hated? People hate the character not you.

I also hate shaman purely based on how much further she can jump attack with crazy tracking. Any hero that can override positioning is annoying and takes away a lot from the game. They should normalize her jump attacks to be inline with rest of cast mechanics wise.

RexXZ347
07-10-2018, 05:55 AM
I also hate shaman purely based on how much further she can jump attack with crazy tracking. Any hero that can override positioning is annoying and takes away a lot from the game. They should normalize her jump attacks to be inline with rest of cast mechanics wise.

You forget the bite damage and after the bite enemies can still attack you. Plus the bleed application is 50/50 move.

Sad.Boi_Hours
07-10-2018, 06:14 AM
Well it bothers me because I don't enjoy using what everyone hates or considers OP. It makes me feel like I'm being cheesy, and especially getting hate for enjoying Shaman and her playstyle. I don't like playing on unfair advantages, and I'd rather have the disadvantage however I don't like WEAK characters. Bottom line is, I'm sure Shaman players get hate for their main and I know I have in duels and brawls. Furthermore, if she's considered a crutch, I'd rather not play her as it means I'm getting some help and that without her I'd be doing ****tier. Heck, I've been looking into a couple very different characters as mains simply because I'm sick of hearing all about how she's a cheesy ******** character to pick. I've thought of Gladiator, Highlander, and Shugoki who all have what I'm sure everyone could agree on are incredibly different playstyles but I'm told to stick with one character to a higher rep, but with all the hatred it's been bothering me so much I've considered switching to one of the aforementioned characters.

And I guess really when I look at this post it's more me questioning my decision to play Shaman, just because I enjoy a challenge more than playing with a crutch and ever since I've seen content on Shaman, it's put her in a whole new light and it's hard to play her without feeling dirty. This sounds more dramatic than I'm intending it to be. Oh well, yeah I just need some advice n help from some more experienced players with all this.

Mia.Nora
07-10-2018, 06:34 AM
I get it, I used to play PK because of her visuals and animations (I decided during trailers before I even touched the game) but with beta it had the same issue; she was universally hated. So I decided to alternate between her and Conq, for two reasons; they had extremely different play styles and helped me master different mechanics, and conq at the time was the worst bottom character.

If I got hate with PK, I would rematch with my conq, and it would feel good.

The_B0G_
07-10-2018, 06:38 AM
If you feel cheesy because you're one of the top 3 characters in the game... it's probably because you're being cheesy.


I had Kensei at rep 15 before his buff, and I was good with him, he was my best character, then he got buffed to god tier and I stopped playing him pretty much altogether, because he's too easy to do well with and I felt like I was being cheesy, he's rep 16 now, barely played him since.

Sad.Boi_Hours
07-10-2018, 07:11 AM
If you feel cheesy because you're one of the top 3 characters in the game... it's probably because you're being cheesy.


I mean, correct me if I'm wrong but I've just looked at 4 tier lists and every single one of them didn't have Shaman placed in the S tier, but instead in the A tier giving me the idea that she's strong with some noticeable weaknesses, but could use tweaking or minor balance adjustments. Perhaps you're talking about her being one of the top 3 in dominion? My main game mode is 1v1 duels and 2v2 brawls I've never played Dominion and I don't necessarily plan on going into Dominion. Is she cheesy then in Brawl n' Duel to you? These 4 tier lists don't seem to state the same statistics:

https://rankedboost.com/for-honor/tier-list-best-classes/

https://steamcommunity.com/app/304390/discussions/0/1696044439576302078/

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bk6y7jw2ujLrjm0Zzbb4aEZUV13gyGoy-IobrkfNgaY/edit#gid=0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yq-2bHphWmM (https://prnt.sc/k4lezh Here is a screenshot of the tier list in case you don't wish to watch the video).

Arekonator
07-10-2018, 07:19 AM
Shaman gank ability is OP, there is pretty much nothing you can do if you get 2v1 against shaman, especially if her partner can also apply bleed. Assuming ofcourse, the enemies are not complete muppets.

Lot of the hate is still lingering from the relase, because in adition to "complete" kit, she also had grossly overtuned numbers and few of them still didnt get toned down as they should be.

The_B0G_
07-10-2018, 07:20 AM
I mean, correct me if I'm wrong but I've just looked at 4 tier lists and every single one of them didn't have Shaman placed in the S tier, but instead in the A tier giving me the idea that she's strong with some noticeable weaknesses, but could use tweaking or minor balance adjustments. Perhaps you're talking about her being one of the top 3 in dominion? My main game mode is 1v1 duels and 2v2 brawls I've never played Dominion and I don't necessarily plan on going into Dominion. Is she cheesy then in Brawl n' Duel to you? These 4 tier lists don't seem to state the same statistics:

https://rankedboost.com/for-honor/tier-list-best-classes/

https://steamcommunity.com/app/304390/discussions/0/1696044439576302078/

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bk6y7jw2ujLrjm0Zzbb4aEZUV13gyGoy-IobrkfNgaY/edit#gid=0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yq-2bHphWmM (https://prnt.sc/k4lezh Here is a screenshot of the tier list in case you don't wish to watch the video).

I only looked at the first link, but it said warden was 1st and nobushi was 2nd, so I assume you have no idea what you're talking about and didn't look at the others.

Arekonator
07-10-2018, 07:24 AM
Bottom line is, the hate you get is the fun part.
No matter what you will play, you will atract someone who will hate on you and your hero of choice.
Of course, some attract it more than others, but dont be bothered by it.

Sad.Boi_Hours
07-10-2018, 07:53 AM
Thatís a rather counter intuitive look on it, as the very first one is made of community votes and what people believed were the strongest characters and keep in mind that that tier list is only a few months old. And just because you decided to be lax and not check the other three out, the other three had correlating characters for the S rank. But considering youíre only here to call Shaman cheesy and one of the top 3 without evidence or any actual argument, I could bet you know about as much as me when it comes to what youíre talking about.

The_B0G_
07-10-2018, 08:08 AM
Thatís a rather counter intuitive look on it, as the very first one is made of community votes and what people believed were the strongest characters and keep in mind that that tier list is only a few months old. And just because you decided to be lax and not check the other three out, the other three had correlating characters for the S rank. But considering youíre only here to call Shaman cheesy and one of the top 3 without evidence or any actual argument, I could bet you know about as much as me when it comes to what youíre talking about.

Warden top pick... with nobushi second... is no where near current and is most likely the top picks from season 2.

https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en-us/news-community/152-325754-16/state-of-balance-season-5-recap

Thats the only tier list that matters. Everything else is heresay and personal opinions.

Darkmight_cz
07-10-2018, 09:00 AM
You forget the bite damage and after the bite enemies can still attack you. Plus the bleed application is 50/50 move.

+heal and tracking is really crazy even if you know she will jump and you are ready to dodge she will caught you in the middle of the dodge. I have seen it many times even on top players. They should tone the tracking down a bit coz right now its ridiculous

Jazz117Volkov
07-10-2018, 09:20 AM
Shaman is typically hated because of her leaping heavies and her bleed bite does massive damage and returns health and stamina. Combine that with her exceptional feint game, lightning fast bleed stabs, and you've got yourself one of the most chaotic and obnoxious heroes in the game.

That said, OP is a strange word. I personally hate playing as Shaman and I'm not good with her at all.

DrinkinMyStella
07-10-2018, 09:44 AM
I used centurion in his prime days all the way up to rep 13 and I got hate but so what Im playing something the devs put in that not my fault. its the same with shaman use her despite the hate but the reason she gets so much hate is her kit has more diversity than any other so she has so much more moves that we have to be aware of when fighting against her so it makes it really hard, she has soft feints everywhere, she has soft feints GB, soft feints bleed, throw distance with headbutt is the furthest throw in the game, she has healing ability and a really strong OOS damage, she has unblockables, she can guarantee a bite from a throw, she had side dodge heavies, very good tracking on her lunge heavy etc thats nearly every ability in the game, most heroes have one or two abilities to mix up but her she has too much to play with imo.

Siegfried-Z
07-10-2018, 11:30 AM
If you like her play her that's all.

The 4 Char i enjoy the most are Kensei (even far before rework), Shaman, Zerk and Valk ...

Well 3 of them are now top 3, 4 and 5 in rankings... while Valk is the worst of all char ..

Play what you like that's all.. Sham is very fun ;)

Tyrfing_.
07-10-2018, 12:08 PM
I agree with Siegfried.
Play what appeals to you the most. People will hate anyone who beats them. Just look at the forum. Everyday you have another hero that somebody wants nerfed. Think we had them all by now.
I would say that is also a sign that FH is pretty well balaced by now.
Personally I like my Shaman - on the other hand I do not fear to play against her at all. For my taste, there are far worse heros arrond that regularly trigger my hate.
All down to personal taste ... and the hero you use yourself.

Han-Singular
07-10-2018, 05:26 PM
Well it bothers me because I don't enjoy using what everyone hates or considers OP. It makes me feel like I'm being cheesy, and especially getting hate for enjoying Shaman and her playstyle. I don't like playing on unfair advantages, and I'd rather have the disadvantage however I don't like WEAK characters. Bottom line is, I'm sure Shaman players get hate for their main and I know I have in duels and brawls. Furthermore, if she's considered a crutch, I'd rather not play her as it means I'm getting some help and that without her I'd be doing ****tier. Heck, I've been looking into a couple very different characters as mains simply because I'm sick of hearing all about how she's a cheesy ******** character to pick. I've thought of Gladiator, Highlander, and Shugoki who all have what I'm sure everyone could agree on are incredibly different playstyles but I'm told to stick with one character to a higher rep, but with all the hatred it's been bothering me so much I've considered switching to one of the aforementioned characters.

And I guess really when I look at this post it's more me questioning my decision to play Shaman, just because I enjoy a challenge more than playing with a crutch and ever since I've seen content on Shaman, it's put her in a whole new light and it's hard to play her without feeling dirty. This sounds more dramatic than I'm intending it to be. Oh well, yeah I just need some advice n help from some more experienced players with all this.

Who cares what everyone else thinks. If you like the character and enjoy playing her, then play her.

People plead for balance, but the only way to truly achieve balance is to make all the characters the same, and frankly thatís just boring and takes away from character diversity. Skill is the only true balance to this game, unfortunately match making can be a pain in the ***.

IMO, I think she needs some tweaking but I wouldnít consider her OP. She has a lot of different moves at her disposal that makes her really annoying.

Her throw range and her leaping distance should be brought in line with the rest of the roster.

Her bite is only effective if she bleeds you, be patient when fighting her. Or just light attack when you see it coming. If you donít see it coming, well thatís on you.

Let players get salty, it makes them easier to beat.

Vakris_One
07-10-2018, 05:27 PM
Every hero in the roster has a hate thread dedicated to them whether they deserve it or not, that's just how this community is. Also, every hero in the roster has something that can be abused so much that it becomes annoying to deal with, with no exceptions. That's just how the game is.

So just play the character(s) you personally like best and ignore anyone trying to hero shame you because at the end of the day that's their problem and not yours.

Sad.Boi_Hours
07-10-2018, 07:32 PM
Warden top pick... with nobushi second... is no where near current and is most likely the top picks from season 2.

https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en-us/news-community/152-325754-16/state-of-balance-season-5-recap

Thats the only tier list that matters. Everything else is heresay and personal opinions.
Ok...so what I got from this is that sheís a decent hero with a decent win rate but sheís not one of the top 3. Glad to know ty.

UbiInsulin
07-10-2018, 07:47 PM
Every hero in the roster has a hate thread dedicated to them whether they deserve it or not, that's just how this community is. Also, every hero in the roster has something that can be abused so much that it becomes annoying to deal with, with no exceptions. That's just how the game is.

So just play the character(s) you personally like best and ignore anyone trying to hero shame you because at the end of the day that's their problem and not yours.

Yep, we even had a similar thread about a different hero just a week or two ago ("should I feel bad for playing X?") . It doesn't even necessarily have to be a hero that is doing well per winrate information/tier lists.

In-game hate towards you, as an individual, for playing a specific hero? That's probably just salt resulting from losing or gameplay frustration. It can happen for so many different reasons.

None of this invalidates legit feedback on the present state of Shaman, btw.

DaFakeSquidward
07-10-2018, 07:49 PM
Well of course you are having fun as her when there is no one that can defeat you you son of a ***** I just played with a shaman and when she guard breaks you and thats A LOT considering that you have to watch out for many more things she uses attack from THE TOP which deals the biggest amount of damage taking a lot of your HP. Also you need to watch out for her biting mechanic which is totally stupid and shouldnt even be there then her push which then she can attack you after and she is also very ****ing fast and also she has a bleeding mechanic she... is stupid and OP "I dont think she is OP you said" "Its incredibly fun to play" well guess why you fun hating baby punching shaman maining dude... no actually you have to be kind of good with her but she is OP she is not bad as Centurion but she is OP...

Arekonator
07-10-2018, 07:56 PM
> imagine being this hatefull to people over a videogame

bannex19
07-10-2018, 09:18 PM
The shaman hate boils down to all reward no risk moves, dip sųųt ease of play and answers for every hero.

The shaman doesn't get enough hate tbh.

Sad.Boi_Hours
07-10-2018, 11:14 PM
Well of course you are having fun as her when there is no one that can defeat you you son of a ***** I just played with a shaman and when she guard breaks you and thats A LOT considering that you have to watch out for many more things she uses attack from THE TOP which deals the biggest amount of damage taking a lot of your HP. Also you need to watch out for her biting mechanic which is totally stupid and shouldnt even be there then her push which then she can attack you after and she is also very ****ing fast and also she has a bleeding mechanic she... is stupid and OP "I dont think she is OP you said" "Its incredibly fun to play" well guess why you fun hating baby punching shaman maining dude... no actually you have to be kind of good with her but she is OP she is not bad as Centurion but she is OP...

You didn't provide anything that really makes much sense and you sound like a really upset person...maybe come back to edit this comment when you've calmed down a bit...

MrGrippz
07-10-2018, 11:53 PM
She needs a nerf for sure.

She has everything.

We.the.North
07-11-2018, 12:18 AM
The reason there is a lot of hate directly toward Shaman is not just because she is OP "per say", it's because you're playing a whole new game when you're playing against her. I'm a rep 50 Shinobi and here's what I mean when I say "I'm playing a whole different game" vs her.

#1 : Leap attack

Against any hero in the game, I can react to a leap attack with double dodge kick and punish with my ranged heavy. Not against Shaman. If the shaman starts her leap attack from far away, it'll work fine and I'll get my punish. If the shaman starts her leap attack close to me, she'll land super far away. As a result, my double dodge kick will whiff in the air and it's the shaman that will get a free punish on me, even tho I did what I do against any other leap attack in the game.

#2 : Soft Feint Heavy into GB after Heavy

Against any hero in the game, when I get hit by a heavy attack and "predict" he's gonna go for a guardbreak after, I can spam light attack and I'll be able to punish my opponent for trying to guardbreak me. Not against Shaman. After a Shaman successfully does a heavy attack on me, she can soft feint another heavy into a guardbreak before I can start my light attack animation. Thus, only against shaman, I can't spam light attack after receiving a heavy cause the shaman guardbreak is 100% safe and will catch me if I do.

#3 : No window of opportunity for ranged GB

Every single Shaman moves combos into something else. Her attack have weird timing and almost no recovery in-between attacks. As a result, you can't ranged GB a Shaman after she whiffs a dodge attack, because she already recovered and will be able to counter GB. You also can't ranged GB her during the heavy attack start up animation because since she can soft feint it into a GB, she's thus able to counter GB you. There is just no window of opportunity against her for ranged GB.

#4 : Some of the things she does are just plain unfair.

You just started playing, but have you read about "out of stamina punishes" ?? If a Shaman throws you on the ground, she gets a leap heavy + heavy + bleed punish. A simple bite afterward is enough to easily finish you off. Since she can feint her bite pounce, baiting a dodge from your opponent is very easy and thus, that "out of stamina punish" is an instant kill. A lot of shaman are running very high revenge gain equipment just to be able to knockdown more easily because of that stupid overpowered combo.

#5 : Bleed Synergies

Some character in this game can inflict bleed. Some can inflict bleed very, very easily. A shaman gank vs a bleeding target is able to instantly close the fight without any chance of revenge procing. Shaman has the easiest and fastest gank potential in the game. At competitive level, the "perfect dominion comp" is Nobushi / Peacekeeper / Shaman + anything else. Just because Shaman ganks vs bleeding target is THAT GOOD.

#6 : Throw distance

Despite being an assassin, she can throw you 100 meters away after a guardbreak. Thus, she gets easy wallsplat or environment kills. Everybody hates environment kills.

#7 : Impossible to parry leap attack

You probably know already her forward leap attack can be done in all 3 directions. But did you know every direction the attack comes from have different parry timing ?? It's about 500 ms from the left, 600 ms from the right or 700 ms from the top. Thus, muscle memory will screw you over if you try to parry her leap attack.

----------------------------------------

TLDR : I'll stop there even tho I still have 3-4 points I could write about. But in short, she's just cancerous to go against because she has so many tools to work with and the way she plays is so "out of sync" with the other heroes that you need to learn how to fight her and forget everything else you think you know about other heroes.

Imagine you've been playing baseball for years and today is the first day you face a left handed pitcher. That's what it feels like playing vs shamans. What you're used to doesn't work anymore, but muscle memory gets you punished.

MrGrippz
07-11-2018, 12:47 AM
We.The.North said it best. Worth the read.

She... has.... EVERYTHING! Nerf!

Sad.Boi_Hours
07-11-2018, 12:49 AM
The reason there is a lot of hate directly toward Shaman is not just because she is OP "per say", it's because you're playing a whole new game when you're playing against her. I'm a rep 50 Shinobi and here's what I mean when I say "I'm playing a whole different game" vs her.

#1 : Leap attack

Against any hero in the game, I can react to a leap attack with double dodge kick and punish with my ranged heavy. Not against Shaman. If the shaman starts her leap attack from far away, it'll work fine and I'll get my punish. If the shaman starts her leap attack close to me, she'll land super far away. As a result, my double dodge kick will whiff in the air and it's the shaman that will get a free punish on me, even tho I did what I do against any other leap attack in the game.

#2 : Soft Feint Heavy into GB after Heavy

Against any hero in the game, when I get hit by a heavy attack and "predict" he's gonna go for a guardbreak after, I can spam light attack and I'll be able to punish my opponent for trying to guardbreak me. Not against Shaman. After a Shaman successfully does a heavy attack on me, she can soft feint another heavy into a guardbreak before I can start my light attack animation. Thus, only against shaman, I can't spam light attack after receiving a heavy cause the shaman guardbreak is 100% safe and will catch me if I do.

#3 : No window of opportunity for ranged GB

Every single Shaman moves combos into something else. Her attack have weird timing and almost no recovery in-between attacks. As a result, you can't ranged GB a Shaman after she whiffs a dodge attack, because she already recovered and will be able to counter GB. You also can't ranged GB her during the heavy attack start up animation because since she can soft feint it into a GB, she's thus able to counter GB you. There is just no window of opportunity against her for ranged GB.

#4 : Some of the things she does are just plain unfair.

You just started playing, but have you read about "out of stamina punishes" ?? If a Shaman throws you on the ground, she gets a leap heavy + heavy + bleed punish. A simple bite afterward is enough to easily finish you off. Since she can feint her bite pounce, baiting a dodge from your opponent is very easy and thus, that "out of stamina punish" is an instant kill. A lot of shaman are running very high revenge gain equipment just to be able to knockdown more easily because of that stupid overpowered combo.

#5 : Bleed Synergies

Some character in this game can inflict bleed. Some can inflict bleed very, very easily. A shaman gank vs a bleeding target is able to instantly close the fight without any chance of revenge procing. Shaman has the easiest and fastest gank potential in the game. At competitive level, the "perfect dominion comp" is Nobushi / Peacekeeper / Shaman + anything else. Just because Shaman ganks vs bleeding target is THAT GOOD.

#6 : Throw distance

Despite being an assassin, she can throw you 100 meters away after a guardbreak. Thus, she gets easy wallsplat or environment kills. Everybody hates environment kills.

#7 : Impossible to parry leap attack

You probably know already her forward leap attack can be done in all 3 directions. But did you know every direction the attack comes from have different parry timing ?? It's about 500 ms from the left, 600 ms from the right or 700 ms from the top. Thus, muscle memory will screw you over if you try to parry her leap attack.

----------------------------------------

TLDR : I'll stop there even tho I still have 3-4 points I could write about. But in short, she's just cancerous to go against because she has so many tools to work with and the way she plays is so "out of sync" with the other heroes that you need to learn how to fight her and forget everything else you think you know about other heroes.

Imagine you've been playing baseball for years and today is the first day you face a left handed pitcher. That's what it feels like playing vs shamans. What you're used to doesn't work anymore, but muscle memory gets you punished.

Well shoot, thank you for this in depth response...after all the comments and my experience with this thread, I've kinda resolved what I should do moving forward with this game. And that would be that I should continue to play Shaman. If people want rematches, I can play another hero. Now, I'm just curious as to which I should learn first as all the heroes I am interested in are incredibly different. You don't need to go in as depth as you did by pulling apart the Shaman, but if you have enough experience with the heroes I list to pull apart their main mechanics and perhaps guide me to what I may enjoy the most, I'd be greatly indebted to you, We.the.North.

1. The Gladiator
2. The Highlander
3. The Valkyrie
4. The Shugoki

Edit: This is not just for We.the.North to answer...anyone that would be happy to help break down one or some of these characters in depth to help a new player like myself out when it comes to choosing who to pick up first or who I would enjoy I am more than happy to read your posts. :p

We.the.North
07-11-2018, 01:27 AM
I wont cover them as much in depht, but I'll cover them all.

#1 : The Gladiator

The #1 thing you need to know about Gladiator is the fact the 2nd part of his zone attack is guaranteed if the initial shield bash connects. Also, if the shieldbash doesn't connect, you can cancel the 2nd part of the zone attack so you dont get punished. As a result, Gladiator's zone attack is the safest move in the game, does decent damage and is very hard to protect against since the initial hit is an unblockable / unparryable bash attack.

The #2 thing you need to abuse is the "Toe Stab" or "GB" mindgame. After each of your attacks, you can feint, toe stab or GB. Get those mix ups going. The only defense against toe stab is dodgeing and if your opponent dodge, they are vulnerable to guardbreak ... Remember : Toe Stab gets your punished with a free guardbreak while guardbreak doesn't get you punished if the opponent counter guardbreaks ... so abuse the guardbreak more than the toe stab to be on the safe side of things.

Last, keep in mind skewer shove after 2 bleed application if you are near a wall since it'll wallsplat for an additionnal heavy attack punish. Be warry, it's very easy to parry a skewer move. As a result, 90% of the time, gladiator will cancel that move into a guardbreak. In fact, gladiator abuse A LOT cancelling all sort of move into guardbreaks since countering a guardbreak attempt doesn't reward anything.

In short, Gladiator is a solid dueler and probably the best pick out of the 4.


#2 : The Highlander

The #1 thing you need to abuse with the Highlander is the offensive stance kick | kick into caber toss. It's a true 50/50 with great damage punish.

The #2 thing you need to abuse is the 400 ms recovery on offensive stance dodge. Many heroes can't get proper punish when they dodge an attack where highlander with his 400 ms recovery will be able to punish a lot of things others can't. You'll need to do massive reading on forums to know exactly what you can and can't do with that offensive stance.

Parry and guardbreak punishes of the Highlander are very poor. hence the importance of mastering the offensive stance.

In short, the Highlander is another solid pick, but requires extensive reading and lots and lots of practice.


#3 : The Valkyrie

She's getting a complete rework in October when Marching Fire "DLC" will release. As a result, maybe you should avoid her. You dont want to build muscle memory with a character just to have everything change all of a sudden. Furthermore, she'll probably the worst dueler at the moment with very low damage output both from neutral and from her punishes ; while also being extremely easy to punish with a simple side dodge + guardbreak after most of her moves.

In short, avoid Valkyrie.


#4 : The Shugoki

Are you a patient player ?? Because Shugoki only mean of doing anything is by turtling fishing for parry punishes or by trading blows while your hyper armor is up. To me, Shugoki is extremely boring, especially in duels. Those take ... forever.

In short, if you play with a friend that can combo stuff you can abuse while you play Shugoki, go for it ; otherwise, you'll get bored. Shoving and Hugging people in Dominion can be fun tho ... but everytime you'll get into a 1v1 ... it'll get boring.

Alustar.
07-11-2018, 01:54 AM
Going to adress some things that are obviously wrong here. NO shaman is not and never was OP. She had some issues at launch with her tracking, and her dodge heavies were a little too powerful. Outside of that shaman has required very little tweaking. The whinging you see on the forums and on youtube are purely from irritable streamers and other such idiots who just simply throw out "shaman OP" videos to snag views and subs. It's the hip thing to do.

Additionally, some glaring innacuracies are as follows.


The reason there is a lot of hate directly toward Shaman is not just because she is OP "per say", it's because you're playing a whole new game when you're playing against her. I'm a rep 50 Shinobi and here's what I mean when I say "I'm playing a whole different game" vs her.

#1 : Leap attack

Against any hero in the game, I can react to a leap attack with double dodge kick and punish with my ranged heavy. Not against Shaman. If the shaman starts her leap attack from far away, it'll work fine and I'll get my punish. If the shaman starts her leap attack close to me, she'll land super far away. As a result, my double dodge kick will whiff in the air and it's the shaman that will get a free punish on me, even tho I did what I do against any other leap attack in the game.


This is a non issue and a Lrn2play problem. I'm sure every hero has some particular trick that has to be dealt with in a different way than you would others. Not to mention YOUR very inability to have a "magic bullet" style of answer to everything is the very thing you ***** about shaman for.




#2 : Soft Feint Heavy into GB after Heavy

Against any hero in the game, when I get hit by a heavy attack and "predict" he's gonna go for a guardbreak after, I can spam light attack and I'll be able to punish my opponent for trying to guardbreak me. Not against Shaman. After a Shaman successfully does a heavy attack on me, she can soft feint another heavy into a guardbreak before I can start my light attack animation. Thus, only against shaman, I can't spam light attack after receiving a heavy cause the shaman guardbreak is 100% safe and will catch me if I do.


This is also not true. Any attack that comes at 500ms will break the GB. And most characters have some form of attack that can. Secondly, if you know this, why even bother, just wait for the CGB window and reset the fight to nuetral. Honestly sounds more like a lag issue than you not being able to counter a soft feint. I've seen Orochi, PK, Gladiator, Centurion and Kensei all hit me out of my soft feint game.




#3 : No window of opportunity for ranged GB

Every single Shaman moves combos into something else. Her attack have weird timing and almost no recovery in-between attacks. As a result, you can't ranged GB a Shaman after she whiffs a dodge attack, because she already recovered and will be able to counter GB. You also can't ranged GB her during the heavy attack start up animation because since she can soft feint it into a GB, she's thus able to counter GB you. There is just no window of opportunity against her for ranged GB.
First: Not every move combos into another. You'd know that if you actually delved into her kit. She does have recovery. If you are throwing a ranged CGB at someone who knows you are there (cause that's always a good idea) what is likely happening is that you see her whiff an attack, throw your GB and in the time it takes for the GB to happen, she has since recovered, instead of "just magically having abnormal recovery times.




#4 : Some of the things she does are just plain unfair.

You just started playing, but have you read about "out of stamina punishes" ?? If a Shaman throws you on the ground, she gets a leap heavy + heavy + bleed punish. A simple bite afterward is enough to easily finish you off. Since she can feint her bite pounce, baiting a dodge from your opponent is very easy and thus, that "out of stamina punish" is an instant kill. A lot of shaman are running very high revenge gain equipment just to be able to knockdown more easily because of that stupid overpowered combo.

Again, just flat out false. She only gets the initial heavy+follow up. If that followup comes from left, yes it will be unblockable. No bleed followup is guaranteed. Baiting a dodge only works on players who aren't patient.



#5 : Bleed Synergies

Some character in this game can inflict bleed. Some can inflict bleed very, very easily. A shaman gank vs a bleeding target is able to instantly close the fight without any chance of revenge procing. Shaman has the easiest and fastest gank potential in the game. At competitive level, the "perfect dominion comp" is Nobushi / Peacekeeper / Shaman + anything else. Just because Shaman ganks vs bleeding target is THAT GOOD.

Probably the only accurate thing you've said, however, that's also not that easy to pull off. Even when I have run premade groups with that very make up we get crushed. Wanna guess why? It's because the players we fight are some of the highest MMR players out there. They know their match ups and counters and once you know that, very little in this game is going to give you trouble.



#6 : Throw distance

Despite being an assassin, she can throw you 100 meters away after a guardbreak. Thus, she gets easy wallsplat or environment kills. Everybody hates environment kills.

Oh look, another thing that is almost factual. At least until you end it with "Everybody hates environmental kills." Not everyone is your brand of butthurt, my dood.



#7 : Impossible to parry leap attack

You probably know already her forward leap attack can be done in all 3 directions. But did you know every direction the attack comes from have different parry timing ?? It's about 500 ms from the left, 600 ms from the right or 700 ms from the top. Thus, muscle memory will screw you over if you try to parry her leap attack.

Then stop trying to be parry god and just block? I mean is it that important that you must parry every attack you see coming at you? Seriously. Not to mention every hero in this game has heavies that come at varied times, so your argument of muscle memory is bonkers because you should know HOW to parry. Wait for your icon and stop trying to use the Force, you are not the Jedi we are looking for.



TLDR : I'll stop there even tho I still have 3-4 points I could write about. But in short, she's just cancerous to go against because she has so many tools to work with and the way she plays is so "out of sync" with the other heroes that you need to learn how to fight her and forget everything else you think you know about other heroes.

Imagine you've been playing baseball for years and today is the first day you face a left handed pitcher. That's what it feels like playing vs shamans. What you're used to doesn't work anymore, but muscle memory gets you punished.

Lol, I love this one, the good ol', "THIS THING IS DIFFERENT AND THEREFORE MAKES ME THINK AND THUS SHOULD BE ELIMINATED SO i NO LONGER HAVE TO THINK!!!!11!!1!!!1" complaint.


To summarize all this for the OP, play what you want, man. As a fellow lover of Shaman, enjoy the hate. If you are getting hate, then you are doing it right.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
07-11-2018, 02:30 AM
No the game isn't balanced but it shouldn't be. In multi-player games people who have skill like to use knives in a gun fight just for the challenge of it.

Sad.Boi_Hours
07-11-2018, 02:46 AM
Welp, time to go and ask questions about Highlander n Gladiator! Thank you everyone for your input on this thread, feel free to continue posting on here but I'm going to go ahead and stick with Shaman not giving a **** about any anger from people in game, and in learning Highlander and Gladiator.

We.the.North
07-11-2018, 03:23 AM
Obviously Alustar you missed the big picture of my post.

The question was : Why is shaman so hated ?

My answer was : What works vs other heroes doesn't work on Shaman. But since your stuck in "muscle memory" mode, you get punished against shaman for doing what normaly works against other heroes.

I studied video game design and even used to work for Ubisoft. The #1 thing that brings frustration to a player is when said player feels cheated by the game. When a player does something he thinks "should work" and blows up in his face, that's sure to bring a lot of frustration. And since not everyone is an hardcore player and learns every single move and counter unique to every single hero, you end up with a massively hated hero : the shaman. Why ?? Because the shaman is probably the hero with the most unique quirks you have to learn against her.

And yes, I do believe shaman deserve a nerf on some things from her kit. The out of stamina punish being a prime exemple of overpowered stuff.

Last, I'll say it again, you're just a troll Alustar. Here's a link to Shaman max out of stamina punish, which is as I said : Leap heavy, heavy, bleed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rah7fVuOvk
Start the video at 5:03

IAmOddGirl
07-11-2018, 03:24 AM
You spent money on the game though I would assume. Shaman is strong for sure. Nothing compared to Berzerker in the hands of an above average player, but still Shaman is quite strong, but her moves are known by now. Her habits and her kit are not a surprise anymore to anyone with a sliver of intelligence and a willing nature to adapt to a situation on the fly in melee combat. Don't listen to the hate. Normally the same people still think Centurion is OP when in fact he's one of the worst characters in the game and is stomped with relative ease. As is Shaman in duels at least. In 4v4 these characters are hard to deal with in certain situations, but thats just the nature of being outnumbered. Don't try to be a rogue Hero in a 4v4 and you will be better off. Stick with your team..as it is a team vs a team. In duels Shaman gives a rather basic challenge when I'm on a character I don't play as much...but on a character like Raider, Gladiator, or Lawbringer her kit's strength relies on me not knowing what she can do...which actually ended on the 2nd day of her release.

And she's been nerfed since then too.
Get competent with Counter Guardbreaks and get competent with parrying Light attacks and she wont be as much of an unfair nightmare to the noobs.

We.the.North
07-11-2018, 03:32 AM
And she's been nerfed since then too.

She had her damage nerfed by 20%, exactly the amount of +% damage gear used to give at that time. And do take notice that the nerf happened exactly at the end of the season pass exclusivity to that hero.

It was not a nerf, it was a reajustment planned from the beginning. They did that so season pass players would be able to level her up without the gear disadvantage of picking up a new hero.

I'm perfectly aware duel is without gear score. Ubisoft said already in the past they acknowledge Dominion to be the "main mode".

IAmOddGirl
07-11-2018, 03:38 AM
She had her damage nerfed by 20%, exactly the amount of +% damage gear used to give at that time. And do take notice that the nerf happened exactly at the end of the season pass exclusivity to that hero.

It was not a nerf, it was a reajustment planned from the beginning. They did that so season pass players would be able to level her up without the gear disadvantage of picking up a new hero.

I'm perfectly aware duel is without gear score. Ubisoft said already in the past they acknowledge Dominion to be the "main mode".

No gear in Duel playlist. In 4v4 ppl just need to be aware of their placement and not trickle in. I know that can't be always done if your team is pure trash and you happened to be matched against an obvious team of buddies who know how to work together. I've played her enough to know her kit. I also dont ever feel any bit of worry if I see her come onto the point that I'm on. Most of the population thinks going for the bite tackle is a good idea 1 on 1 which makes that god tier character easy to beat because she is being controlled a scrub lord.

We.the.North
07-11-2018, 03:39 AM
No gear in Duel playlist.

Jesus people never read until the end. I'm out.

We.the.North
07-11-2018, 03:50 AM
@CHRlSTIAN.WOOD

Did you read Alustar's post ??


As a fellow lover of Shaman, enjoy the hate.

Here's another prime exemple of why For Honor players hate shamans.

Alustar.
07-11-2018, 03:56 AM
Obviously Alustar you missed the big picture of my post.

The question was : Why is shaman so hated ?

My answer was : What works vs other heroes doesn't work on Shaman. But since your stuck in "muscle memory" mode, you get punished against shaman for doing what normaly works against other heroes.

I studied video game design and even used to work for Ubisoft. The #1 thing that brings frustration to a player is when said player feels cheated by the game. When a player does something he thinks "should work" and blows up in his face, that's sure to bring a lot of frustration. And since not everyone is an hardcore player and learns every single move and counter unique to every single hero, you end up with a massively hated hero : the shaman.

And yes, I do believe shaman deserve a nerf on some things from her kit. The out of stamina punish being a prime exemple of overpowered stuff.

Lol, what works against 1 hero will not always work against every other hero. Muscle memory isn't the issue. It's your refusal to cope with this fact. Your rep 50 shinobi is a prime example of this. He likewise changed the game and players had to adapt. Every be hero has this effect. Even as a shaman I have to vary my routine. What works against a warden weekly work against a Centurion for example. Get over this idea you have of a magic bullet.

We.the.North
07-11-2018, 04:40 AM
Again :

Question was : What's with all the Shaman hate?

Then you say :


Lol, what works against 1 hero will not always work against every other hero.

This is true. Each hero has some unique quirks that you have to work around. What works for some heroes doesn't work for other heroes. You have 100% correct.

But then I said :


And since not everyone is an hardcore player and learns every single move and counter unique to every single hero, you end up with a massively hated hero : the shaman. Why ?? Because the shaman is probably the hero with the most unique quirks you have to learn against her.

Most of the Shaman's hate comes from the average For Honor player base. You know, what forms the vast majority of your player base. Now you can keep arguing everything she does has a counter and blah blah blah. That's not the question.

The fact is : Not everyone is a hardcore gamer and the reason why Shaman is hated as much is because she requires A LOT of getting used to, way more than other heroes. Time and dedication casual players do not have. But those same players do have time to rant about the hero on the forums.

TLDR : This is why shaman is hated. And while we're on the subject, I also pointed out some things from her kit that needs nerfing : like hte out of stamina punish.

That's it.

And since you feel the need to insult me personnaly :

https://fhtracker.com/profile/pc/We.the.North/heroes

Whatever makes you feel better man. Those stats, for a solo player, are pretty damn good. I do hate shaman, but that doesn't mean I don't eat them for breakfast. Remember the question : Why are shaman hated.

https://fhtracker.com/leaderboards/pvp/pc/SiteScore/hero/SamuraiDLC1Ninja

Oh, look at that. I'm now the world 19th best Shinobi on PC for Fighter score. The more you know. But what's that ?? I'm also a solo player ?? Impossibruh !!

Defend your beloved Shaman all you want. I'm giving you my rep 50 opinion of things that are just wrong by design with your beloved class. Things that can be improved to make the game more enjoyable. If that end up "nerfing" the Shaman, I'm not against buffing your class somewhere else. Like I said, the #1 frustration from players in a game comes from when the player feels cheated by the game and Shaman sure is clunky.

Alustar.
07-11-2018, 05:23 AM
Lol, arguing using cyclical logic and linking your stats from FHtracker as if it's going to make your point more valid.
You are a special brand of stupid.

Notice how you keep coming back to, "this topic was started because: this." What you fail to realize is every item you listed in that verbose post you made I debunked as either false or illogical. But you keep on trucking through, little buddy. Your tenacity in the face of facts and logic is so overwhelming, I don't doubt you'd live through the apocalypse because of denial alone.
XD
Since this is going no where, I'm out. Feel free to have the last word. Gods know you are going to want to have it anyway.

We.the.North
07-11-2018, 06:32 AM
What you fail to realize is every item you listed in that verbose post you made I debunked as either false or illogical.

Please. How is this false :


Here's a link to Shaman max out of stamina punish, which is as I said : Leap heavy, heavy, bleed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rah7fVuOvk
Start the video at 5:03

Alustar.
07-11-2018, 11:11 AM
I don't need to watch a video that's going to show someone poorly reacting to the combo. I play shaman, so unlike you, I have a very good idea of what she can do. I promise you, the bleed from heavy follow-up is not confirmed.

Arekonator
07-11-2018, 11:16 AM
According to max punishes spreadsheet compiled by competetive players, its confirmed. Maybe there is problem with your inputs?


Throw -> Wildcats Rage -> Right/Top Heavy -> Top Bleed Followup
for total of 69 dmg.
Its not really outrageous as far as OOS punishes go. And the followup bite is easy to avoid.

Alustar.
07-11-2018, 11:23 AM
Lol it's not my input. Go test it yourself. Like I said, I play her very frequently. I'm pretty sure experience makes my word hold more weight than a spread sheet or a YouTube video against level 1 bots.

Arekonator
07-11-2018, 11:30 AM
I have few reps with shaman, and acording to my experience its confirmed too.

Alustar.
07-11-2018, 11:56 AM
Ok tested the top heavy top bleed, while that is confirmed, it's not her Max punish for OOS. The side unblockable does more loads more damage. And like you already said, the bleed proc then mercy follow-up is extremely easy to dodge.

Arekonator
07-11-2018, 12:10 PM
Normal heavy does 32dmg instead of 40 that the unblockable does, but while you lose 8 points on that, you get bleed for 15 or so.

Alustar.
07-11-2018, 12:57 PM
I'd suggest going for unblockable, as that is straight damage, bleeds aren't as reliable in 4v4 since they can mitigate most of the bleed damage with debuff resist.

bannex19
07-11-2018, 01:57 PM
I don't think anybody but head in the sand shaman mains think she's balanced. Ubi doesn't even think she's balanced but the good news is once the new heroes come out we're all going to be begging for the days of the shaman.

At least she's so annoying to listen to and look at not many people play her.

Vakris_One
07-11-2018, 02:32 PM
Please. How is this false :
It's not her max OOS punish. Her max punish is heavy > unblockable heavy which does 8 more points of damage than the heavy > top heavy > bleed.

Arekonator
07-11-2018, 02:36 PM
It's not her max OOS punish. Her max punish is heavy > unblockable heavy which does 8 more points of damage than the heavy > top heavy > bleed.

We just went over it, throw - followup heavy - unblockable does 60 dmg, as opposed to two heavies + bleed that does 69.

Vakris_One
07-11-2018, 02:56 PM
I don't think anybody but head in the sand shaman mains think she's balanced. Ubi doesn't even think she's balanced but the good news is once the new heroes come out we're all going to be begging for the days of the shaman.

At least she's so annoying to listen to and look at not many people play her.
I don't know man, the S5 Duel win chart paints a different picture:

http://static2.ubi.com/comdevs/FH_duel_winloss_matrix_layers.png

^ 53% win ratio putting her in 5th place is pretty balanced. And she's in 6th place for Dominion at 50%, also pretty balanced.

Seems to me like a lot of people just don't like having to adapt to what she can do and end up hating on her for making them pay attention when fighting her. That and of course people don't like to be placed in the love bite cutscene. Thing is: upping your game and paying attention is how you fight any character that you're initially weak against. We The North keeps saying Shammy is the most unorthodox fighter and the one with the most things to watch out for. Well if that were true then you'd think she would be the one topping the Duel win chart instead of Conq, no?

In my opinion she is one of the more predictable characters once you learn what she can do. That's not to say she is weak but when you compare her mind game options to that of say Kensei or even Raider's stunning tap/zone mixup or her OOS pressure to that of Warden, Conq or Highlander, I think you'll find she's not this monumental mini-boss Titan of mount Olympus.

And finally, simply because a rep 50 Shinobi has a difficult matchup against her does not make her OP. It just means she's a hard matchup for a Shinobi. Shinobi in turn has quite a few good matchups versus other characters. That's about as close to balanced as anyone can expect with the rock, paper, scissors approach that For Honor employs.

Vakris_One
07-11-2018, 03:04 PM
We just went over it, throw - followup heavy - unblockable does 60 dmg, as opposed to two heavies + bleed that does 69.
You only get to 69 if the bleed stays. In 1v1 that's fine if the opponent doesn't kill you before the bleed wittles their health down. But 4v4s you have healing feats that remove it completely and debuff gear that mitigate its damage potential. It's almost always better to go for the immediate 60 damage.

bannex19
07-11-2018, 03:31 PM
Jeez looks like the orochi rework didn't help at all lol

Tyrfing_.
07-11-2018, 03:45 PM
I might be not even in top 50% of players, but the above chart matches exactly my personal gameplay experiences.
Any hero with a decent dodge-attack ( Kensei, Zerker, PK), or hyper-armor (Zerker, Shugo) or light spam (Ama) can deal with her easily and are direct counters to her style. Less movable heros struggle with her overwhelming mix-ups.
Thus, I suppose, the different opinions in this thread on her.

We.the.North
07-11-2018, 04:02 PM
And finally, simply because a rep 50 Shinobi has a difficult matchup against her does not make her OP.

I have no problem against her. Beside, the chart shows Shinobi has a 49% win rate vs shaman, I'd call that even. I merely stated points that make the casual gamer angry at Shaman, because she's so out of sync of the other heroes in this game and requires a lot of getting used to, more than other heroes.

The only overpowered thing I called on her was the out of stamina punish. Some of you say the bite is easy to dodge, I said it's easy to bait an opponent's dodge thus making the bite guaranteed.

Finally, I disagree going for the unblockable heavy direct damage route is the best route. For one, you don't put your opponent on the defensive vs your bite. Second, when Shaman attacks a target with bleed, she's healing. In fact, the only reason I would go for the unblockable is if I'm certain that will KILL my opponent while the bleed wouldn't.


Well if that were true then you'd think she would be the one topping the Duel win chart instead of Conq, no?

Conq is on top because of that super safe shieldbash that can punish almost everything in the game, even Shinobi's kick, while being 100% safe on a lot of hero. Did you know you can't even ranged atk / ranged GB a Conqueror after his shieldbash ?? Your weapon goes through him, he's 100% invulnerable. That's not even overpowered, it's broken.

Beside, Conq being #1 on the chart doesn't mean Shaman has nothing worth nerfing. And like I said, if nerfing something obnoxious from the Shaman make her slip at the 6th or below position on the chart, just buff something else.

Alustar.
07-11-2018, 04:57 PM
I don't think anybody but head in the sand shaman mains think she's balanced. Ubi doesn't even think she's balanced but the good news is once the new heroes come out we're all going to be begging for the days of the shaman.

At least she's so annoying to listen to and look at not many people play her.

I don't think anyone but bads and nubs that can't block/parry/dodge think she's OP.
(See I can do that too.)

ShinyDroplet
07-11-2018, 05:13 PM
I despise Shaman because it makes Dominion a horrible experience.

Sosoken
07-11-2018, 07:21 PM
I just personally think her bite dmg needs to be toned down some. And the fact that she can feint her bite too? Like what the hell?

Otherwise I don't really care about shaman much anymore. She can be annoying, sure but so can every other hero in the game if played a certain way.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
07-12-2018, 11:25 PM
Shamans reach needs to stay in the game for dominion. Everytime there is a shinobi as the last man stands it becomes a game of catch the gingerbread man.