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Knight_Raime
07-01-2018, 06:21 PM
Unbeknownst to the majority of the people who know me Goki was actually the Heavy hero I had my eyes on before the game launched. I ended up not playing him really ever though due to how he plays out and how he's just not fun to fight against or fight as. So today I'm going to attempt to give him a rework similar to how I did aramusha and Warden. And once I get your guy's feedback and I adjust some things i'll post it to the competitive sub like usual. So like always we need to establish what goki is trying to be and what his issues are.

So I believe Goki was supposed to be similar thematically to a sumo wrestler. This is seen from his single hits to oppressive moves that make the fight long and often reset the fight to neutral/displace you. Also unlike the other heavies Goki is meant to be the tank. Based around trading. This is enabled from his passive armor both letting him not flinch and reducing the damage of a hit. Unfortunately though Goki doesn't really have any fake outs to make his kit gel with those oppressive moves. His armor creates tons of weird combat instances often not in goki's favor. and it makes trading a no brainer. He's very clunky. My rework attempts to keep this theme but make it more mechanically sound while also enhancing that feeling of being a big tanky sumo wrestler.

Passive armor: Currently Goki regains his passive armor every 5 seconds. Longer if he gets hit at all. It allows him to trade brain dead like. So my change is passive armor is no more. At least. It's not there by default. The changes: Goki now takes reduced damage from opening hits and normal damage from in combo hits. Goki's armor is now earned when you land a demon's embrace. Since landing a demons embrace is rather difficult The armor is slightly buffed. it now takes 2 cc attacks to remove instead of one. And now it has a damage cap before it's removed. Currently 30 damage. It can still be removed from a guard break attempt. These changes help Goki retain his tanky feeling whilst making his strong armor something you have to earn. encouraging playing rather than waiting like current armor.

Demon's embrace: Very controversial move. Has the ability to OHK. And basically reduce your damage to nothing because it heals. But it's only gone for when it's guaranteed. Sometimes when armor is up. It's a high risk high reward move that never felt good on either side. The changes: You can now "hold" in the demon's embrace stance. Can cancel it by the feint button. Once you let it rip you've got 2 options. Either letting it go through. Your you cancel it with a soft feinted golf swing (his current guard break heavy.) Demon's embrace's health return and damage is normalized. You no longer take damage from missing a demons embrace. 50 damage. 50 heal. 40 stamina gained. Move speed stays the same. The soft feint into golf swing is 400ms into the attack. You earn your passive armor with a successful grab. You no longer suffer a damage penalty for missing an embrace.These changes make demon's embrace a less punishing tool for both sides whilst also giving more incentive to use when it's not guaranteed.

Charge of the oni: Never really used anymore. It doesn't really splat people. Hard to use as a ledging tool. And doesn't knock the person down.
The changes: Demon ball can now knock people down who are out of stamina. These changes further help aid this moves role which I believe is a displacement tool. And it avoids the mix up game issue it had back in the early months of for honor.

Headbutt: A strong tool that leaves you with about one third of your stamina. But It doesn't feel very great to get hit by. And all in all is very boring.
The changes:Headbutt is no longer guaranteed. And the stamina damage it does now leaves you with half stamina instead of a third. But now it can be used on block, on whiffs, and can be soft feinted into from either a heavy or the second half of his zone. it's a 500ms unblockable and the soft feint window on heavies is 500ms into the attack. so anytime before that 500ms marker it can be soft feinted into. Headbutt now also deals 12 health damage. These changes really bring the theme out in my opinion. it's an oppressive move that forces players to slow down. This enhances that while removing the frustration of it being guaranteed.


Heavies: Are an important tool for Goki currently. But their pretty slow. and often get him punished due to his absurd recovery.
The changes: As I already mentioned he can soft feint into headbutt. But now his heavies have armor. and instead of having his uncharged heavies be 1000ms the're now 800ms. and a fully charged heave is now 1200ms from 1600ms. The armor activates 300ms into the move. and is active until he's 100ms away from being unblockable. Comboed heavy is now 600ms from 800ms. Damage values stay the same. Recovery on both a whiffed heavy and a whiffed charged heavy is shortened some. This change gives Goki the ability to trade without his earned armor. But he's at a risk since he's attacking. This also technically means going into his soft feinted headbutt is protected by armor. But his headbutt doesn't have the armor. better recovery means more incentive to use the moves. But they're still vulnerable to a GB if you're quick on your feet.

Lights: Basically parry bait.
The change: lights are now 500ms from 600ms. 600ms lights are bad and have no actual use anywhere. 500ms lights mean goki can still throw one to try and fend off a GB attempt or to interrupt. But will be less likely to be parried.

Zone attack: Part of goki's mix up game. But not very good at that.
The changes: Zone is now 800ms from 900ms for both hits. Second half of the zone can be soft feinted into headbutt. Soft feint window is 300ms after the first hit goes through.
Bringing the zone speed to his normal heavy speed creates a little guess game as the opponent doesn't know wether it's a heavy or a zone attack off of speed alone. And both can go into headbutt giving goki options.

I think that about covers it!

EDIT: Removed splat on charge of the oni. and removed Demon's embrace alternate. The former due to potential abuse. the latter pushing goki too close to the grappler role which is currently raiders role.

Kryltic
07-01-2018, 07:17 PM
I read "gets his stance comes up on a Demons Embrace" and decided you know nothing about the Shugoki.

Kryltic
07-01-2018, 07:31 PM
Your ideas do nothing to help him. Infact they make him worse. Reread the other threads on how to fix him and you'll see how far you come short.

Charged heavys all gain HA

Headbutts and ledge and wall splat

Demon Embrace doesn't cost HP on a loss. They all also recover stamina but cause a delay before you can use another Embrace.

Change Staggering Blow for Tough as Nails (as a level 4 feat)

Give the second swing in a zone attack unblockable.

In a Light - Light chain (started from the side) the second Light automatically comes from the opposite direction at a faster than a normal attack speed. (For a Shugoki).

In a Light - Heavy chain the heavy is unblockable if it comes from the top

In a Heavy - Heavy chain the second heavy is the charged unblockable heavy but at a normal heavy speed and always comes from the top.

In a Heavy - Light chain, the attack comes from a different direction but suffers no parry punish.

All new and existing chains can end in a headbutt.

No longer suffers increased damage after losing his Uninterruptable Stance.

Lord_Cherubi
07-01-2018, 09:13 PM
https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1896154-Demon-s-Embrace-suggestion

Here's my previous thread, it's only about Demon's Embrace but i think it could be a good change to the move.

Also agree about the Zone attack part, i ALWAYS cancel the second hit unless it's a teamfight because it's just too easy to parry. Adding headbutt into the mix (especially if it wallsplatted) is a nice touch.

Knight_Raime
07-02-2018, 12:46 AM
I read "gets his stance comes up on a Demons Embrace" and decided you know nothing about the Shugoki.

Can you point out where I wrote something like that? Because the only thing I can think of in my post where I mention stance and DE is when I was talking about giving him the ability to hold in it. Similar to how you can hold in storm rush. Or hold wild cats rage/pounce. But sure. what a lovely way to write off my post.


Your ideas do nothing to help him. Infact they make him worse. Reread the other threads on how to fix him and you'll see how far you come short.

Charged heavys all gain HA

Headbutts and ledge and wall splat

Demon Embrace doesn't cost HP on a loss. They all also recover stamina but cause a delay before you can use another Embrace.

Change Staggering Blow for Tough as Nails (as a level 4 feat)

Give the second swing in a zone attack unblockable.

In a Light - Light chain (started from the side) the second Light automatically comes from the opposite direction at a faster than a normal attack speed. (For a Shugoki).

In a Light - Heavy chain the heavy is unblockable if it comes from the top

In a Heavy - Heavy chain the second heavy is the charged unblockable heavy but at a normal heavy speed and always comes from the top.

In a Heavy - Light chain, the attack comes from a different direction but suffers no parry punish.

All new and existing chains can end in a headbutt.

No longer suffers increased damage after losing his Uninterruptable Stance.

This isn't a thread for you to interject your ideas. This is a thread about discussing mine. If you can't actually tell me how my ideas are bad or how your ideas are better i'm just not going to respond.

EDIT: All he lost with my suggestions is passive armor, OHK potential, and guaranteed headbutts. His passive armor isn't healthy gameplay wise and it hurts him almost as much as it helps him. There are specific punishes out there that work on him because of the armor. Not to mention because of how his current armor works he takes extra damage when it's off. And being able to OHK someone is nice and all. But do you really think it's worth having considering all the current downsides of demon's embrace? And sure. I can see the "hurt" of not getting a headbutt for free anymore. But it's still a very fast unblockable that can be soft feinted into (in my suggestions) and on top of stamina damage does a lights worth of normal damage.

I'm not going to be pompus and assume that my rework is the right one or the best one. But I don't think you can objectively state my rework makes him worse than he currently is. That's pretty impossible to do.

Knight_Raime
07-02-2018, 12:47 AM
https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1896154-Demon-s-Embrace-suggestion

Here's my previous thread, it's only about Demon's Embrace but i think it could be a good change to the move.

Also agree about the Zone attack part, i ALWAYS cancel the second hit unless it's a teamfight because it's just too easy to parry. Adding headbutt into the mix (especially if it wallsplatted) is a nice touch.

Your ideas are interesting. Though I don't think it really fits into my picture of goki. As it would seem the whole kit should be more about DE with your idea. Where as mine is more just updating it.

TSCDescon
07-02-2018, 02:20 AM
Sad to tell you Goki mains, he won’t be getting one. :(

MarshalMoriarty
07-02-2018, 03:48 AM
Faster Lights are completely unnecessary. Shug only throws lights when they are guaranteed (i.e the enemy is attacking while Stance is up or you parried them). He's a Trader and Tank, a very slow one - he has no business attempting any offence outside of Stance Trading.

Having Demon Ball wallsplat would make for a lethal Heavy punt followed by guaranteed Embrace. We'd be in Centurion Cutscene Combo territoty with control of the opposing character being removed for far too long and far too much damage for being GB'd once.

All Shug really *needs* is to lose that silly 'takes more damage when Stance is down' rule. We Shug players would obviously like more eventually, but we'd settle for that for the time being. Just as Valk players wonder 'Why can't they just increase her damage a bit?' These 2 changes would bee easy to inplement, yet they insist on making us wait years for their official rework.

Knight_Raime
07-02-2018, 05:10 AM
Sad to tell you Goki mains, he won’t be getting one. :(

Do not spread misinformation.
They specifically stated in their season 5 blog that they didn't have anything specific to state on his rework at the time and likely wouldn't have anything in the near future.
They haven't ever stated he's not being reworked.

Knight_Raime
07-02-2018, 05:11 AM
Faster Lights are completely unnecessary. Shug only throws lights when they are guaranteed (i.e the enemy is attacking while Stance is up or you parried them). He's a Trader and Tank, a very slow one - he has no business attempting any offence outside of Stance Trading.

Having Demon Ball wallsplat would make for a lethal Heavy punt followed by guaranteed Embrace. We'd be in Centurion Cutscene Combo territoty with control of the opposing character being removed for far too long and far too much damage for being GB'd once.

All Shug really *needs* is to lose that silly 'takes more damage when Stance is down' rule. We Shug players would obviously like more eventually, but we'd settle for that for the time being. Just as Valk players wonder 'Why can't they just increase her damage a bit?' These 2 changes would bee easy to inplement, yet they insist on making us wait years for their official rework.

"faster lights are unnecessary" "only goes for lights when they're guaranteed" mhm.
I'm just going to stop there.

MarshalMoriarty
07-02-2018, 05:35 AM
Yeah, you're right. Why listen to the guy with the Rep 8 Shugoki and who actually plays the character, when we could listen to the guy who 'has never really played him ever' and who's been told repeatedly on this thread that he has no idea what he's talking about?

A Shugoki has no need *whatsoever* to throw out hopeful lights when he can just trade using his stance. You keep the enemy under control with traded lights and headbutts and advance on him to get him near a wall for wallsplat embraces. Its safe, it works and it stops their offence dead. Which you would know *if* you played him. Only you could be so pompous as to make a thread like this where you have no clue about the character and try to shut down everyone else's ideas.

Shugoki is terrible at offense from neutral. He has no safe moves, so you don't do it.

Kryltic
07-02-2018, 07:49 AM
Right under the part where you change his Uninterruptable Stance or "passive armour" as you call it.

You write earns his stance upon a successful DE.

Right so now I've shown you where you put that I'll yet again point out that you clearly have no clue as to what you're talking about.

Also the fact you feel others can't put their suggestions in this thread is laughable.

Vakris_One
07-02-2018, 11:39 AM
Some of your ideas are good, others I'm not so sure about.

● Shugo running charge giving wallsplat - I think is not needed as it can be abused for free cutscene-like damage if he corners his opponent. With this change Shugo can just charge splat > heavy all day long until the opponent is dead or Shug runs out of stamina. It'll be like the bad old days where Shugs could just troll a fight with running charges only it will be restricted to walls and corners. Remove the wallsplat but keep the knockdown on an OOS opponent.

● The removal of his passive hyper armour and now having to access it via Demons Embrace - is clunky and changes the nature of the character. I get that you're attempting to push the character into a less passive playstyle, which is good but I can't quite forget how you gave me so much beef for doing something similiar with my Warden shoulder bash suggestion. By similiar I mean tweaking the character's playstyle. Yet here you are fundamentally changing the way Goki plays and in a similiarly drastic way as my Warden SB suggestion. Turning Shug's playstyle into more of an aggressor who generates a superior version of passive hyper armour rather than a tanky trader. I have to give you a +1 on hypocrissy points here.

Now, certain things like not taking extra damage after HA is down, removing the OHKO from Demons Embrace and giving him stamina regen on DE is all good and improves the character without fundamentally changing his playstyle. I especially like the idea of him holding DE and being able to soft feint out of it into an attack. I suggested a similiar approach to keeping Orochi's riptide heavy in the game, a suggestion which you again recently told me was just me whining and crying about the devs removing Orochi's "quirkiness". Yet here you are suggesting the very same thing for Shugoki. I have to give you another +1 on hypocrissy points for that as well.

● Faster lights is good.
● A non-guarranteed headbutt but a more versatile way to work it in is okay. I can see potential with that and it still maintains Shugo's personality.
● Holding GB for a less damaging version of Demon's Embrace is neither here nor there. At low level play where landing GB's is pretty easy it will give the Shugo too much self-healing. At high level play he'll practically never land a GB unless he catches a player in a gank in which case he might as well have used the full Demons Embrace. It's an extra tool, yes. But it will barely see any use at high level play and at lower level play I can see it being derided as annoying.

Final thoughts:
Some cool suggestions that will expand his kit while staying true to his personality like holding DE, soft feint to baseball hit, faster lights, etc. Some not so good suggestions like wall splat on running charge. And some suggestions that will fundamentally change his playstyle like locking his passive hyper armour behind a Demons Embrace from neutral - could be for good or for bad. But one thing's for sure; after this thread I don't want to read you aggressively crapping on someone else for suggesting reasonable changes to another character's playstyle.

Knight_Raime
07-02-2018, 04:49 PM
Some of your ideas are good, others I'm not so sure about.

● Shugo running charge giving wallsplat - I think is not needed as it can be abused for free cutscene-like damage if he corners his opponent. With this change Shugo can just charge splat > heavy all day long until the opponent is dead or Shug runs out of stamina. It'll be like the bad old days where Shugs could just troll a fight with running charges only it will be restricted to walls and corners. Remove the wallsplat but keep the knockdown on an OOS opponent.

● The removal of his passive hyper armour and now having to access it via Demons Embrace - is clunky and changes the nature of the character. I get that you're attempting to push the character into a less passive playstyle, which is good but I can't quite forget how you gave me so much beef for doing something similiar with my Warden shoulder bash suggestion. By similiar I mean tweaking the character's playstyle. Yet here you are fundamentally changing the way Goki plays and in a similiarly drastic way as my Warden SB suggestion. Turning Shug's playstyle into more of an aggressor who generates a superior version of passive hyper armour rather than a tanky trader. I have to give you a +1 on hypocrissy points here.

Now, certain things like not taking extra damage after HA is down, removing the OHKO from Demons Embrace and giving him stamina regen on DE is all good and improves the character without fundamentally changing his playstyle. I especially like the idea of him holding DE and being able to soft feint out of it into an attack. I suggested a similiar approach to keeping Orochi's riptide heavy in the game, a suggestion which you again recently told me was just me whining and crying about the devs removing Orochi's "quirkiness". Yet here you are suggesting the very same thing for Shugoki. I have to give you another +1 on hypocrissy points for that as well.

● Faster lights is good.
● A non-guarranteed headbutt but a more versatile way to work it in is okay. I can see potential with that and it still maintains Shugo's personality.
● Holding GB for a less damaging version of Demon's Embrace is neither here nor there. At low level play where landing GB's is pretty easy it will give the Shugo too much self-healing. At high level play he'll practically never land a GB unless he catches a player in a gank in which case he might as well have used the full Demons Embrace. It's an extra tool, yes. But it will barely see any use at high level play and at lower level play I can see it being derided as annoying.

Final thoughts:
Some cool suggestions that will expand his kit while staying true to his personality like holding DE, soft feint to baseball hit, faster lights, etc. Some not so good suggestions like wall splat on running charge. And some suggestions that will fundamentally change his playstyle like locking his passive hyper armour behind a Demons Embrace from neutral - could be for good or for bad. But one thing's for sure; after this thread I don't want to read you aggressively crapping on someone else for suggesting reasonable changes to another character's playstyle.

Yeah i'll edit out the splat from charge of the oni. You're the second person to mention something like that. I was trying to give it more utility other than the small suggestions i'd already given for it.
I don't see how that is clunky. Perhaps you mean a different word. Passive armor currently when gone comes back in 5 seconds. 7 I believe if you take any damage even chip. Which means you can't reliably have it when you'd always want it. And as i've eluded to before his passive armor and how it functions for him right now hurts him as much as it helps him. There are a handful of heros out there who have special punishes that net them more damage than not because his hyper armor removes the first stun and then he takes increased damage.

I gave all the functions of it else where whilst still keeping it in some capacity. It's not like i'm pulling this change out of my arse either. I've spoken to more than one shugoki main about it. Most rework suggestions i've seen over on the competitive sub ditch it entirely. (again from dedicated shugoki mains.) His passive armor serves to help him trade and take reduced damage. I gave him armor on his heavies specifically for trading and he takes less damage from combo starting moves. So functionally he's the same here. Just in a different fashion. Also I want to remind you that I'm not against reworks that "change a kit's nature" Our little scrap about Warden was primarily because YOU had the issue of orochi's current kit changing his nature. But wanted to change Wardens. So you can't really slap me with the hypocrisy here.

On the hold to demons embrace I struggled here. I wanted to give him another "sumo" type move. I was thinking of him slapping both sides of someones head on the temples to give a stun effect. Unsure what else it would do. And beyond that I wouldn't know how to make it as an appealing option over the newly buffed Headbutt. So I settled on DE alternate. I'm not married to the idea though. I'd be perfectly fine with just removing it entirely and not add anything. Probably a good idea anyway since imo that pushes him too close to the grappler style which is more raiders thing.

That little quip at the end is entirely unneeded. I'm not against big changes to a kit. Sometimes I will point out that something is unlikely to happen because the devs won't change a kits theme. Or that I don't want x change because it steps on the toes of another kit. That's just me trying to give a decent explination on why I don't like a particular change. If you so desire I can just say "I don't like this idea" in the future so you won't have to worry about me being hypocritical. I will again take the time to remind you that With your warden thread I was never against anything you proposed. I couldn't have been because I didn't read it. I made it abundantly clear that my issue was your hypocrisy. The other 20% of my replies in there were me pointing out what the devs are attempting with reworks. I can't honestly remember any suggestions you've made about Orochi. And I feel you're just taking the time here to take a jab at me because you've not let go of something I supposedly did in the past. You're most certainly cherry picking and taking that particular statement out of context in order to make me look bad.

But I appreciate the rest of this feedback jabs aside. Thank you.

UbiInsulin
07-02-2018, 07:44 PM
Please make sure to stay on the topic of potential changes to Shugoki, instead of whether people are qualified to give their opinion. If you disagree, it makes for a better discussion if you explain your side rather than saying "your opinion shouldn't count."

TheGokiMain
07-02-2018, 10:13 PM
Rep 24 goki here mind if give some points of my own?

Hormly
07-02-2018, 10:31 PM
Imo they should totally embrace the sumo theme with this guy, I'm talking explosive energy in short bursts, fast side movements to throw an attacker off ballance, and the longest shove distance in the game 😂 make him king of the dohyo!

Knight_Raime
07-02-2018, 11:56 PM
Rep 24 goki here mind if give some points of my own?

I'm fine with you adding in some ideas of your own. So long as you can give me some decent feedback of my own ideas.
Because as I said I forward all of my reworks to the competitive sub at some point. So being able to polish my suggestions via your guy's feedback is helpful and wanted.

Knight_Raime
07-02-2018, 11:57 PM
Imo they should totally embrace the sumo theme with this guy, I'm talking explosive energy in short bursts, fast side movements to throw an attacker off ballance, and the longest shove distance in the game 😂 make him king of the dohyo!

could you explain how you might make "explosive energy bursts" into some game mechanic?

Lord_Cherubi
07-03-2018, 12:21 AM
They should definetely put the headbutt into a bigger role, make it wallsplat so it can be used for offence rather than just making some breathing room. I would also like if he had at least one parry counter, maybe headbutt or pommel tap similiar to Lawbringer but slightly more damage and no stun. And imo the headbutt should do some minor damage without the need of adding Haymaker feat just so you could sometimes finish a low opponent like a badass

Charge of the oni should not get wallsplat imo since like you mentioned before it would be easily abusable and it already is VERY dangerous around any ledges. Hell, usually the enemy team starts running away just by spotting me guarding a bridge haha

Hormly
07-03-2018, 12:55 AM
could you explain how you might make "explosive energy bursts" into some game mechanic?

Give him a stance (the way a nobushi does) where he squats low like a sumo at the tachiai, from which he could do several things 😄 either bounce left or right (henka) as a counter attack or fly forward for a hundred hand slap!

Something like that 😃

HazelrahFirefly
07-03-2018, 02:37 AM
I'm not sure about the Shug having faster lights. We've gotta stop ALL heroes from having fast lights, especially the slowest guy in the game.

Instead I think he should be able to feint them as well, into non-guaranteed headbutts.

Knight_Raime
07-03-2018, 02:54 AM
Give him a stance (the way a nobushi does) where he squats low like a sumo at the tachiai, from which he could do several things �� either bounce left or right (henka) as a counter attack or fly forward for a hundred hand slap!

Something like that ��

Certainly an interesting idea!


I'm not sure about the Shug having faster lights. We've gotta stop ALL heroes from having fast lights, especially the slowest guy in the game.

Instead I think he should be able to feint them as well, into non-guaranteed headbutts.

Keeping terrible lights for the sake of diversity is a terrible mindset imo. In an ideal world everyone would have different attack speeds due to varied MS increments. But i've no idea if the devs are ever going to do that. So the best current solution is to have every light be 500ms. and some 400ms lights depending on the kit/mix up. Nobushi is the only hero who can feint lights at the moment. Not sure that's something that should be expanded upon to the rest of the cast.

Lord_Cherubi
07-03-2018, 08:48 AM
Certainly an interesting idea!



Keeping terrible lights for the sake of diversity is a terrible mindset imo. In an ideal world everyone would have different attack speeds due to varied MS increments. But i've no idea if the devs are ever going to do that. So the best current solution is to have every light be 500ms. and some 400ms lights depending on the kit/mix up. Nobushi is the only hero who can feint lights at the moment. Not sure that's something that should be expanded upon to the rest of the cast.

Not sure if i agree that he has slow lights, i mean on paper they might be but imo they're pretty decent for such a passive, tanky hero. I hit lights constantly and by feinting the heavy i can sometimes chain up multiple lights in a row. Giving him faster lights, light-light combo or ability to feint lights would be a mistake imo.

Mia.Nora
07-03-2018, 10:50 AM
Shugo needs these in my opinion;

HA on charged heavies (Raider need that on his zone as well)
Headbutt not %100 guaranteed anymore. But it can be followed with a guaranteed light and also can ledge/wallsplat.
2nd heavies in comboes unblockable.
DE recovers stamina.
Second attack in zone can be soft feinted into GB.
Charged heavies can be soft feinted into headbutt.

/2 cents

HazelrahFirefly
07-03-2018, 12:18 PM
Keeping terrible lights for the sake of diversity is a terrible mindset imo. In an ideal world everyone would have different attack speeds due to varied MS increments. But i've no idea if the devs are ever going to do that. So the best current solution is to have every light be 500ms. and some 400ms lights depending on the kit/mix up. Nobushi is the only hero who can feint lights at the moment. Not sure that's something that should be expanded upon to the rest of the cast.

We have no idea if the devs are ever going to do anything.... thry may never even touch Shugoki. Might as well aim for a proper solution instead of increasing the spamfest. Just because you're uncertain means it's not worth considering btw?

Knight_Raime
07-03-2018, 04:15 PM
Not sure if i agree that he has slow lights, i mean on paper they might be but imo they're pretty decent for such a passive, tanky hero. I hit lights constantly and by feinting the heavy i can sometimes chain up multiple lights in a row. Giving him faster lights, light-light combo or ability to feint lights would be a mistake imo.

They are 600ms lights. Which are notoriously slow. It's automatically parry bait against anyone decent. Slower lights just encourage him to play passive and wait for his armor to come up so he can trade for it to land. My rework is specifically trying to move him away from passive play and encourage active play. He's both incredibly strong and incredibly weak when talking about passive play.

Knight_Raime
07-03-2018, 04:23 PM
Shugo needs these in my opinion;

HA on charged heavies (Raider need that on his zone as well)
Headbutt not %100 guaranteed anymore. But it can be followed with a guaranteed light and also can ledge/wallsplat.
2nd heavies in comboes unblockable.
DE recovers stamina.
Second attack in zone can be soft feinted into GB.
Charged heavies can be soft feinted into headbutt.

/2 cents

Pretty cool that we agree on somethings here when we usually butt heads.
anyway It's a bit off topic but I don't agree with giving raider hyper armor. Yes people can hit him out of his stunning tap mix ups. But they risk the raider predicting and parrying. This can be done to all attacks on reaction sans PK's zone which has to be done on prediction. the actual issue of raiders mix up is that it's entirely negated with a well timed dodge since stunning tap has no tracking what so ever.


We have no idea if the devs are ever going to do anything.... thry may never even touch Shugoki. Might as well aim for a proper solution instead of increasing the spamfest. Just because you're uncertain means it's not worth considering btw?

The devs stated the whole OG roster would be reworked. And since what they did to highlander, bushi, and pk all counted to them under "rework" that means goki is going to be touched in some fashion at some point. Your issue not mine if you think 500ms attacks are spam fest and not proper solutions. I will agree that making all lights at minimum 500ms is an easy/lazy solution. But it's better than trying to make 600ms+ lights some how viable. The devs spent half of for honor's life span putzing around making half arsed solutions before they decided to tighten their belt and make real solutions like the parry changes. I don't think having them take that same pre season 5 attitude to address 600ms lights is a smart call anyway you slice it.

If slow lights were acceptable than combos would actually be viable. They're not. I get people are apprehensive about the game getting faster. But to be blunt my attitude for that is really just me saying "tough." There really isn't room for debate on styles for honor can be at this point. The path has been chosen to becoming a more competitive title. Which means things are going to become faster overall.

Mia.Nora
07-03-2018, 04:37 PM
On the note of 600ms lights, they are not meant to be openers. Shogu throws heavies from neutral and trades with lights, that's his thing.

If it is really a problem then maybe just give them superior block and keep them 600ms. Some heroes need to be unique in the way they play and should stay that way in my opinion.

HazelrahFirefly
07-03-2018, 04:39 PM
Finding a way to make "slower" lights viable is absurd, but the Shug getting armor only after a new kind of demon embrace is perfectly acceptable?

Not sure you even want a discussion lol. I think you're just hoping someone kisses your ***.

Knight_Raime
07-03-2018, 04:43 PM
On the note of 600ms lights, they are not meant to be openers. Shogu throws heavies from neutral and trades with lights, that's his thing.

If it is really a problem then maybe just give them superior block and keep them 600ms. Some heroes need to be unique in the way they play and should stay that way in my opinion.

The increase to 500ms on his lights are not meant to make them openers. 500ms lights are not openers to begin with. the point is it reduces their likelyhood of being parried. And that's really only partially correct. He can only trade with them if he has armor up. Without his armor up goki is better off trying to do heavy attack feinting and what not than throwing his light. because it will just be parried.


Finding a way to make "slower" lights viable is absurd, but the Shug getting armor only after a new kind of demon embrace is perfectly acceptable?

Not sure you even want a discussion lol. I think you're just hoping someone kisses your ***.


Clearly not if you saw my reply to Vakris. But sure. If you wana have a fit because I disagree with you and take a jab at me go right ahead bud. I just won't reply to you anymore.

HazelrahFirefly
07-03-2018, 05:33 PM
Hey, I actually liked most of your rework ideas. I had one little suggestion (whilst many others promptly tried to discredit you) and your response was 'no, no, no.' Its extremely difficult to communicate with someone who immediately puts up a wall after claiming to want a discussion.

Also, at what point do you think they will ever touch heroes like the Shug and Warlord? If S7 is the Warden and Valk, and S8 is the Wu Lin...then are we looking at S9?? Its bordering on ridiculous.

I'm also fairly certain that they also "recently" said that a few heroes won't be receiving reworks/balances.

What I said is neither a fit nor a jab by the way



Clearly not if you saw my reply to Vakris. But sure. If you wana have a fit because I disagree with you and take a jab at me go right ahead bud. I just won't reply to you anymore.

Though this is.

Knight_Raime
07-03-2018, 06:00 PM
Hey, I actually liked most of your rework ideas. I had one little suggestion (whilst many others promptly tried to discredit you) and your response was 'no, no, no.' Its extremely difficult to communicate with someone who immediately puts up a wall after claiming to want a discussion.

Also, at what point do you think they will ever touch heroes like the Shug and Warlord? If S7 is the Warden and Valk, and S8 is the Wu Lin...then are we looking at S9?? Its bordering on ridiculous.

I'm also fairly certain that they also "recently" said that a few heroes won't be receiving reworks/balances.

What I said is neither a fit nor a jab by the way



Though this is.

You're looking deep when there isn't a reason to because nothing is there. I'm not being stubborn for the sake of being stubborn. I've been hugely against slow lights for months. I'm not disagreeing about your suggestion because this is a thread about goki. I disagree about keeping 600ms lights in any fashion for fundemental reasons. So claiming that "I just want my arse kissed" isn't applicable when I took constructive feedback already in this thread. You can't convince me that 600ms lights are going to ever be okay. If you want to have a productive discussion about my rework than pick something else to disagree with.

I would say earliest we see Goki being reworked is with the new heros. Since there isn't anything stopping them from doing both. Though in my own personal opinion I don't think we will see goki or warlord or raider touched until the last month of this year. maybe one month before. That specific response was them clarifying that not every hero is going to get a level of rework like kensei or conq. The only heros they've specifically stated they won't rework at this time are the dlc heros. Because the focus is on bringing the OG roster up to speed. The only thing even remotely stated on goki was a few months back (iirc) where they stated they had nothing specific to mention and his changes were not in the immediate future. This was mentioned sometime during season 5 I believe.

It's just a safe bet to assume goki, raider, and warlord will be touched at some point. Unless they specifically state said heros won't be touched. And saying I want my arse kissed is clearly a jab at me.

HazelrahFirefly
07-03-2018, 08:59 PM
Jesus christ man... as if I'm supposed to know what you've been against for months? In this thread all you've stated in response to someone before me disagreeing with fast lights is:


"faster lights are unnecessary" "only goes for lights when they're guaranteed" mhm.
I'm just going to stop there.

and then my post was next where you stated that I wanted them kept for the sake of it. Which you then must have realized isn't true, as we discussed the option of making them viable instead. So, what? I'm supposed to know you are fundamentally against them and have been for months before you even respond to the topic?

Oh, and no, it's not a jab. It's an impolite way of stating that you don't seem to want an actual discussion nor are you appearing as capable of taking any criticism. I understand if you are looking with the cheek that's been slapped here - the first few replies were from arrogant a-holes. However, the ONLY person you actually replied to, that you engaged with, is another frequent poster who often agrees with you (Vakris). I'm not even remotely suggesting that there's a club mentality going on, but give other people a chance to bring up ideas - by reading and thinking about them.

Knight_Raime
07-04-2018, 05:15 AM
Jesus christ man... as if I'm supposed to know what you've been against for months? In this thread all you've stated in response to someone before me disagreeing with fast lights is:



and then my post was next where you stated that I wanted them kept for the sake of it. Which you then must have realized isn't true, as we discussed the option of making them viable instead. So, what? I'm supposed to know you are fundamentally against them and have been for months before you even respond to the topic?

Oh, and no, it's not a jab. It's an impolite way of stating that you don't seem to want an actual discussion nor are you appearing as capable of taking any criticism. I understand if you are looking with the cheek that's been slapped here - the first few replies were from arrogant a-holes. However, the ONLY person you actually replied to, that you engaged with, is another frequent poster who often agrees with you (Vakris). I'm not even remotely suggesting that there's a club mentality going on, but give other people a chance to bring up ideas - by reading and thinking about them.

My bad for assuming you post often. As i've mentioned in plenty of other threads about the need for faster attacks. If you wish we can have a seperate discussion about it in pm's. As i'm more than willing to express my opinion about that in depth there. This thread is about Goki so I wana focus on the bigger changes I suggested. Like with the deomons embrace and headbutt.

I do want feedback. I was just met with..non constructive feedback. Varkis was imo the only one who did. I think there was another guy. Kispee? or something like that. Who was also constructive. And i'm perfectly fine with having a discussion with you. Tis why I suggested you pick something else from my suggestions that you're not liking the sound of. the light speed while apart of his suggested changes is more of an over arching discussion that needs to happen seperately. Which is why I extended you an offer to pm me about it if you're truly curious on why i'm so stubborn about making lights faster.